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Copperhorse

Hold LEO factions to the same risk / reward Non-RP standards that criminals are held to.

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@Copperhorse Thats how it is 99% of the time. Only supervisors+ are allowed to authorize use of deadly force such as firearms in pursuit and even then we try and do it in the secluded areas such as highways or back roads. If people are firing at the officers, they are allowed to engage back

 

But when we are talking about realism, aren't you also driving the same in the city as the cops? Going incorrect lane of travel, driving on the sidewalk and stuff. You are bringing up cops driving unrealistically and quoting robbery rules where you are supposed to roleplay as this is an active and living city. Yet you and because of you, also cops drive 200+ in the city. There is no way you would be driving 200 km/h in a city of any size.

Even in the 2nd video that you provided in the original post, you show yourself driving recklessly in the city, showing an example of how you don't do what you say. 

And not to mention that you say that PD / SD didn't stop to treat the injured people, when you can literally see a Kamacho dismounting next to the injured person

 

You can't say that one group is doing something that you think is wrong and unrealistic, when you are also doing it as well, that is just selective realism at that point

Edited by BrainDed
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6 minutes ago, UrbanAwsomeman said:

This seems like something to bring up to the staff members managing PD/SD than just posting a complaint on the forums with unsubstantiated claims

 

 

How are the claims unsubstantiated? I literally placed 2 videos that were less than 3 days old and explained each claim thoroughly how it's unrealistic from a risk / reward process. Please read the thread before you comment your unsubstantiated claims.

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3 minutes ago, Copperhorse said:

How are the claims unsubstantiated? I literally placed 2 videos that were less than 3 days old and explained each claim thoroughly how it's unrealistic from a risk / reward process. Please read the thread before you comment your unsubstantiated claims.

2 short videos with not much context behind them. One of them involved an admin as well and im inclined to believe they try to uphold a high standard of RP. I can post many clips of crims or civs doing questionable RP with no context behind it but that would be dishonest as context is key. Also if your claiming those clips are non-rp wheres the forum report? You should be reporting them if you think a rule was broken and let the staff team decide instead of making a thread here.

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21 minutes ago, Copperhorse said:

I can't say for all circumstances, but in general if you have somebody who committed a violent felony and they are in a secluded location where the risk of stray bullets striking civilians is non-existent it would be okay in terms of a risk / reward standpoint to use lethal force if the suspect chose not to surrender after demands of lethal force being used were issued.

If that same person who previously committed a violent felony sticks to populated areas deadly force should not be used unless they are actively firing at officers or civilians from their vehicle, if they are intentionally ramming officers or civilians on foot, or ramming vehicles with the intention to cause great bodily injury or death.

As with criminal robberies, the risk / reward should be of what a reasonable officer or criminal would do. It would be on a case by case basis given the totality of the circumstances. But those are some general guidelines that I would think are appropriate.

 

I agree with what you outlined and I will say that as far as how PD acts, we usually stick to shooting on highways even if demands are given in the city given that we do try and RP the city as being packed and having civilians walking on the streets. I don't see why that can't be extended to highways, although I would argue that with enough police prescence the highway would realisticlly be cleared eventually, maybe have it so PD can put out a PSA asking motorists to clear the highway, which would RP'ly clear any civilians from the road and also inform players of an on-going situation in a populated area. This would be on a timer, meaning as soon as the warning is put out X amount of time has to pass to consider the highway ''clear'' from an RP standpoint.

 

That last part is just some brain storming, but to begin I wouldn't be opposed to not shooting on highways unless one of the situations you outlined happens.

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14 minutes ago, BrainDed said:

@Copperhorse Thats how it is 99% of the time. Only supervisors+ are allowed to authorize use of deadly force such as firearms in pursuit and even then we try and do it in the secluded areas such as highways or back roads. If people are firing at the officers, they are allowed to engage back

 

But when we are talking about realism, aren't you also driving the same in the city as the cops? Going incorrect lane of travel, driving on the sidewalk and stuff. You are bringing up cops driving unrealistically and quoting robbery rules where you are supposed to roleplay as this is an active and living city. Yet you and because of you, also cops drive 200+ in the city. There is no way you would be driving 200 km/h in a city of any size.

Even in the 2nd video that you provided in the original post, you show yourself driving recklessly in the city, showing an example of how you don't do what you say. 

And not to mention that you say that PD / SD didn't stop to treat the injured people, when you can literally see a Kamacho dismounting next to the injured person

 

You can't say that one group is doing something that you think is wrong and unrealistic, when you are also doing it as well, that is just selective realism at that point

Highways are not RPly secluded, the whole idea of everything out of the city being free game to use lethal force is wrong. There are still many locations where there would be civilians outside of the city, a busy interstate being one of them. As I said in a prior post about unrealistic driving, we have deemed that to be not crossing the line where a non-rp punishment should be issued. Should you try to drive in the correct lane under normal circumstances? Of course. But when you are pursuing, have an emergency, or are evading we have decided that a bit of erratic driving doesn't cross the line of non-rp because it doesn't effect anyone elses roleplay substantially. What we have decided is that when criminals make decisions they have to think of the risks / rewards of their decisions to see whether they would be non-rp or not. We have decided that if you do cross that line you will receive a non-rp punishment as you are directly hurting other peoples roleplay. I'm asking for that same standard to be applied to everyone, including law enforcement factions.

About your claim of selective realism. Yes, this is a case of selective realism. We have certain actions that people do in this server which are unrealistic but that we've decided don't meet the threshold of receiving a non-rp punishment. Driving erratically being one of the main ones. When do you see police officers stopping at stop signs or traffic lights during normal patrol? Nobody does because it doesn't impact anyone's roleplay. What's been selected by the staff team is to RP as if there are civilians in a live city when you are conducting RP that impacts others roleplaying experience. I did not select that realism threshold, the staff team did. All I'm asking is they apply that same threshold to everyone instead of just criminals.

Edited by Copperhorse
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Except civilians or PD don't do actions that would be breaching into that "You are in public so people would see you" territory. Most of the stuff that an officer does and if officers would be limited on that, so would be anyone else.

PD can't drive recklessly, you can't drive recklessly. 
PD can't shot in the city while in pursuit ( especially if you say that by standers would get hit ) , so can't you as that would be really unrealistic and would basically mean that you would be hunted down to be caught

Highways are not completely secluded, but there is more space for a stray bullet to not hit anyone. IF possible we would more than love to use different methods of stopping vehicle, but nothing else is feasible (spike strips don't sync, if we try to block of a part of highway/road to block someone in, that person just goes off road etc )

And you have to understand that supervisors can only utilize force when they shot at the officers in the pursuit, or they caused extreme damage to the public by running someone over or crashing into them. At that point, stopping the vehicle before it can do any other damage is the main priority and even then we are locked to approving it for areas with less population. We try not to do high speed PIT maneuvers in the city for the exact reason of civilians being there. Some PIT attempts or box in attempts can be performed at low speed, but IRL, if the pursuit is going for a long time in the city, they gradually employ more drastic approach to try and stop the suspect.  The longer the pursuit goes for, the higher chance of causing an injury ( IRL they could drop the pursuit and wait for the suspect at his house, but you can't do that here )

 

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2 hours ago, pepijn26 said:

https://streamable.com/2qgv4f this is what 90%+ of PD does. Give extra charges so they get locked up and you can walk away like nothing happend. 

Just because the see the DOC transport van they are willing to place extra charges so you get locked up even longer, the penal code says 20 minutes for failure to comply. Oh no imagine following the rules, Bam just give him 110 minutes.

I mean... did they just make up the firearm you had in your possession and the charges which you had pending from a few days previous? No, no they didn't. Stop cutting videos to suit your narrative, anyone can do that it doesn't make your point correct and makes you look like a clown once you're outed.

No one within PD feels we are perfect, however claiming that PD needs to up its RP standard when it already has a higher RP standard than the majority of the server’s kind of funny.

I don't know the complete details of the situations in the original report; however the 1st situation is a one off and given the surrounding events is justified. Regarding the second situation, I am aware of who was involved, and I already know that those Officers will only open fire when they absolutely have to.

PD would love to use lower force and have longer more reasonable pursuits, however when we're pursuing Hakuchou's turning at 20 G in the city or street gang members using supercars at 240 all day every day, we have to adjust to what we're handling. If this city was in the real world it would be under Martial Law with the National Guard patrolling the streets so claiming that PD are acting unrealistically given how much violence there is and how frequent situations involving heavy weapons occur is a bit of a meme.

Regarding PD and the win/loss, what does PD win when they arrest someone? We don't promote people based off of arrests, they don't get paid based off of arrests. Criminals have a win and a loss and the vast majority of the time they win.

 

 

 

Edited by Borrelli
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Major +1

I can not believe that first clip actually occurred. I am honestly shocked. It is so unrealistic for the PD/GOV to be shooting at a person that has stolen an armored vehicle with a .50 Cal machine gun on a busy highway. Realistically, that highway would have been packed, imagine the amount of causalities that would happen. I do not know what country you guys live in, but even though the US can get crazy, it definitely does not get to the point of shooting a .50 Cal machine gun on a busy highway because someone stole a government car. Do not even compare this to saying "oh, criminals do this...". PD should hold themselves to a high standard of roleplay and not compare themselves to anyone.

Whoever had the idea of bringing out an insurgent with a .50 Cal machine gun, I urge you to find a video on the internet where a similar situation has happened in real life. You will probably find no videos because it would probably never happen and if it were to happen, it would definitely not happen over a stolen government car.

 

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1 minute ago, Borrelli said:

I mean... did they just make up the firearm you had in your possession and the charges which you had pending from a few days previous? No, no they didn't. Stop cutting videos to suit your narative, anyone can do that it doesn't make your point correct and makes you look like a clown once you're outed.

No one within PD feels we are perfect, however claiming that PD needs to up its RP standard when it already has a higher RP standard than the majority of the server, I don't know the complete details of the situations in the original report, however the 1st situation is a one off and given the surrounding events is justified. Regarding the second situation, I am aware of who was involved and I already know that those Officers will only open fire when they absolutely have to.

PD would love to use lower force and have longer more reasonable pursuits, however when we're pursuing Hakuchou's turning at 20 G in the city or street gang members using supercars at 240 all day everyday, we have to adjust to what we're handling. If this city was in the real world it would be under Martial Law with the National Guard patrolling the streets so claiming that PD are acting unrealistically given how much violence there is and how frequent situations involving heavy weapons occur is a bit of a meme.

Regarding PD and the win/loss, what does PD win when they arrest someone? We don't promote people based off of arrests, they don't get paid based off of arrests. Criminals have a win and a loss and the vast majority of the time they win.

 

 

 

You're absolutely wrong to suggest that shooting a .50 cal at a fleeing SUV when there is a helicopter and 10 PD behind him and that person has not committed any violent crimes is justified in any way shape or form. There is no debate to be had on that situation. It was not justified and not realistic. The fact that it was armored provides no extra reasoning to shooting it with a .50 cal minigun. You can still PIT it, you can still follow it with a helicopter, you can still blow its tires out.

They did not absolutely have to shoot in the second video. I was not a deadly threat to anyone at any point. You are wrong to suggest that shooting somebody who is not causing great bodily harm or a deadly threat is justified or realistic from a police officer.

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Just now, tylxrrr said:

Major +1

I can not believe that first clip actually occurred. I am honestly shocked. It is so unrealistic for the PD/GOV to be shooting at a person that has stolen an armored vehicle with a .50 Cal machine gun on a busy highway. Realistically, that highway would have been packed, imagine the amount of causalities that would happen. I do not know what country you guys live in, but even though the US can get crazy, it definitely does not get to the point of shooting a .50 Cal machine gun on a busy highway because someone stole a government car. Do not even compare this to saying "oh, criminals do this...". PD should hold themselves to a high standard of roleplay and not compare themselves to anyone.

Whoever had the idea of bringing out an insurgent with a .50 Cal machine gun, I urge you to find a video on the internet where a similar situation has happened in real life. You will probably find no videos because it would probably never happen and if it were to happen, it would definitely not happen over a stolen government car.

 

So next time a criminal is being pursued down that highway are they doing to weave in and out of the imaginary traffic?

Can people stop trying to compare the server to real life every two seconds? The server attempts to imitate real life, it's not expected to be exactly the same. This situation has happened ONCE in the life of the server and from the video of the other side of the situation (those evading), they seemed to be having a laugh during the situation. If Brasco or CBullet wants to complain then they are more than welcome to but everyone seeing a clip and complaining on their behalf when they haven't even commented (as far as I am aware) is a joke and a waste of time.

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4 minutes ago, Borrelli said:

I mean... did they just make up the firearm you had in your possession and the charges which you had pending from a few days previous? No, no they didn't. Stop cutting videos to suit your narative, anyone can do that it doesn't make your point correct and makes you look like a clown once you're outed.

No one within PD feels we are perfect, however claiming that PD needs to up its RP standard when it already has a higher RP standard than the majority of the serveris kind of funny.

I don't know the complete details of the situations in the original report, however the 1st situation is a one off and given the surrounding events is justified. Regarding the second situation, I am aware of who was involved and I already know that those Officers will only open fire when they absolutely have to.

PD would love to use lower force and have longer more reasonable pursuits, however when we're pursuing Hakuchou's turning at 20 G in the city or street gang members using supercars at 240 all day everyday, we have to adjust to what we're handling. If this city was in the real world it would be under Martial Law with the National Guard patrolling the streets so claiming that PD are acting unrealistically given how much violence there is and how frequent situations involving heavy weapons occur is a bit of a meme.

Regarding PD and the win/loss, what does PD win when they arrest someone? We don't promote people based off of arrests, they don't get paid based off of arrests. Criminals have a win and a loss and the vast majority of the time they win.

 

 

 

they feel good about arresting people thats what they get for winning and the longer they put someone in jail the better it makes them feel i just got put in jail literally 6 hours for a decent sized crime i guess when in reality i should have probably gotten 3 hours but i talked shit to the cop so he gave me any and every charge he could even think of in the minute he decided what he would place on me 

 

But again as all police think its just an IC issue clearly even the commander doesnt realize his factions RP isnt as good as he thinks

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3 minutes ago, Borrelli said:

So next time a criminal is being pursued down that highway are they doing to weave in and out of the imaginary traffic?

Can people stop trying to compare the server to real life every two seconds? The server attempts to imitate real life, it's not expected to be exactly the same. This situation has happened ONCE in the life of the server and from the video of the other side of the situation (those evading), they seemed to be having a laugh during the situation. If Brasco or CBullet wants to complain then they are more than welcome to but everyone seeing a clip and complaining on their behalf when they haven't even commented (as far as I am aware) is a joke and a waste of time.

I completely understand that Eclipse is not supposed to be exactly like real life and we all should have fun playing, but I really think the .50 cal went overboard and should be declared non-realistic. Of course, you shouldn't have to weave in and out of imaginary traffic. However, it should come to mind that "hey, realistically there would be a lot of people driving on this highway, let me use a handgun or a micro SMG and shoot out the tires to avoid to much collateral damage" or "hey, realistically there would be a lot of people driving on this highway, let me rob someone in a more secluded area to avoid witnesses".

This is just my opinion, but I hope we can all agree on the .50 cal situation should not have happened. Even though, it may have been fun and a nice laugh. It is just too unrealistic to have happen.

I mean, hey, it may be fun to go stunt jumping with your sports car and you may have a nice laugh. However, it is just too unrealistic.

As I said before, there are definitely things that can slide like speeding all the time or running red lights all the time. However, this was just over the top.

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9 minutes ago, mikebumbum said:

they feel good about arresting people thats what they get for winning and the longer they put someone in jail the better it makes them feel i just got put in jail literally 6 hours for a decent sized crime i guess when in reality i should have probably gotten 3 hours but i talked shit to the cop so he gave me any and every charge he could even think of in the minute he decided what he would place on me 

 

But again as all police think its just an IC issue clearly even the commander doesnt realize his factions RP isnt as good as he thinks

Do you feel good about robbing people and winning shootouts? If you're going to talk trash and act like an idiot and create issues then yes, you're going to get more charges, that's on you, not on PD.

I'm not claiming PD consists of RP gods by any means, there are situations where I have to speak with members to point out issues, but those are far more rare than the majority of criminals would like to think.

Arresting some dude isn't why I play the game and I doubt it's why the majority of members of PD play. You'd have to join to find out but the key draw of PD in my opinion is the funny and wacky situations and the ability to have fun with a great group of people.

I can concede that sometimes charges are sometimes placed differently by different officers, however if you committed a crime, why are you upset/surprised when you get charged and serve the time?

Anyone who has these concerns/issues with PD, I'd advise you make a new character (or use a character with a limited criminal history) and apply for a ride-a-long to see how PD actually operates because it's going to be very different from how you are making it out to be.

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29 minutes ago, MrSilky said:

So how about that risk/reward rule suggestion?

cops need to fear that they will harm ''innocent bystanders'' in pursuits and shootouts just like we have to fear being seen by ''innocent bystanders'' while robbing people

2 different types of rules that cant be compared because in reality a criminal whos shooting people or running from police wont care about hurting civs 

and a cop would care about hurting/shooting an innocent person and wouldnt just go rampant through the city just to catch the person and arrest them

the comparison i would use is if a criminal is flying down the sidewalk and hits into a ''pedestrian'' would a cop realistically follow on the sidewalk and run the same person over again just to keep up on a chase or pit a criminal or shootout their tires? no they wouldnt they would try to approach the situation carefully and not harm more people 

Edited by mikebumbum
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If criminals were to have a bike that could instantly evade (like real life which some of you are saying) then wouldn’t every single criminal in the server use that bike or vehicle to evade? Then PD would not have a chance of EVER catching a criminal. That is why PD vehicles are as fast as crim supers etc, meaning that they is no way of making this any more realistic. There is some vehicles that can evade or have high chances of evading, you just have to learn which ones they are. If you try hard enough it is very easy to evade in almost any high end vehicle, the hardest part is losing the helicopter, which if you learn certain roads and tactics you can lose that too.

 

I honestly disagree with what SOME officers do, for example I do see clips of cops pitting in the city (which isn’t suppose to happen) and people getting rammed in the city, tires getting taken just for felony evading and some felony public endangerment, but this does not happen often at all, and when people think it does happen they do not see the full picture. Another thing is some cops putting there cruiser in front of you on a turn when you go 200km/h, sometimes this is a genuine mistake and other it is not. They is IC rules and protocols we are meant to follow, for example pitting in the city. 

 

I personally would be perfectly fine with having to buy my own armour and guns on duty and getting refunded when I put them back, but if this was to happen and would want a salary increase as after tax I’m barely scraping 4k an hour, whereas on crim I can easily make 15k+ an hour grinding drugs (at least before the new cooking changes, I have not cooked recently so I am not sure if that did get changed or not).

 

The only thing I would say is OP in PD is the helicopter, but that is just because of how impossible it is to lose it in a super, you more then likely will have to grab a bike to evade a helicopter. 

 

The good officers do not get recognised by the community so when 1 person does something like a non rp ram in the city, people will accuse “most” of the department, which from an officers perspective isn’t right as they is actually many great officers in the LSPD, there is just the odd couple that aren’t.

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1 minute ago, HobGoblin said:

@Jake Johnson  The SUV that was shot was a fully armoured one. Which I don’t think people can tell from the video.  Also them vehicles are for commissioners. 

Bro did i not make it clear? I could care less if its only for commissioners, just because they are high up doesnt mean they can do whatever they want. Also, even if it was armored you dont blow up a car in the opposite lane of traffic

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1 minute ago, HobGoblin said:

@Jake Johnson  The SUV that was shot was a fully armoured one. Which I don’t think people can tell from the video.  Also them vehicles are for commissioners. 

can we please stop with the trying to make it okay by saying because its a bullet proof car it should be blown up by a mini gun lol can we also stop saying it was the commisioners car so it was okay to spawn a gatling gun truck to blow up his own car it just makes no sense

 

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10 minutes ago, mikebumbum said:

can we please stop with the trying to make it okay by saying because its a bullet proof car it should be blown up by a mini gun lol can we also stop saying it was the commisioners car so it was okay to spawn a gatling gun truck to blow up his own car it just makes no sense

 

You act like it was spawned for that. Which it wasn’t. It was different when a GD FMJ was following the insurgent with the 50 cal. The FMJ was given warnings about following it but didn’t give a fuck about his life then ran a cop over to bait him getting shot.  Which ended in him and the passenger dead. 

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If you want to continue commenting on this thread please reference the original post and comment solely on your thoughts for this RULE SUGGESTION. Failure to do so will result in posts being removed and the thread potentially locked. Please stay on topic and cease the back and forth PD vs Criminal banter that gets us nowhere - either stick to specific thoughts on the Non-RP suggestion or refrain from commenting. Thank you in advance.

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1 hour ago, Aaron Martin said:

The good officers do not get recognised by the community so when 1 person does something like a non rp ram in the city, people will accuse “most” of the department, which from an officers perspective isn’t right as they is actually many great officers in the LSPD, there is just the odd couple that aren’t.

It's odd to me that I find myself almost every day avoiding cops, not solely because I'm a crim, but because of the fact that the majority of cops do some very questionable shit. Believe me, I recognize a great amount of people in PD for great RP and even respect them because of how they can properly handle RP situations.

It's just the idea of being rammed off a drag at high speeds, drive by tazed, gunned down for stealing a vehicle or driving high speeds, etc, stuff like that gets a little absurd and worrying for it to be considered "above standard level of RP" and the excuse for all of that is "crims have a play to win mentality so we'll have that mentality" is a fucking joke in itself.

Although I do agree that the actions of one person's doesn't represent the whole faction. I too admit that I have blamed a faction as a whole before based off of one person's act, but when it's almost a daily recurrence from multiple different people from that faction there's a point in time where something has to change for the bettering of the community. 

Edited by LikeASumBoodie
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13 hours ago, BrainDed said:

PD can't drive recklessly, you can't drive recklessly. 
PD can't shot in the city while in pursuit ( especially if you say that by standers would get hit ) , so can't you as that would be really unrealistic and would basically mean that you would be hunted down to be caught

LOL do you understand what you are saying. old PD member talking like this is very confusing for me 

so you are saying because criminals doing any thing they want PD can do that too ?? so what is different between crime and law enforcement

if you talking about IRL .if you you be in pursuit you are not allowed to shot at the criminal because he is driving inside the  city is high chance to you or him  injured or kill civilian .in most reports Admin talking about We live in a busy city .You are not allowed to incite yourself or the criminal to shoot inside the city or in the highways . 

this is the RP but far as i see in this server you guys just wanna put the guy in jail and give him the charges soon is possible

i still remember that day i was at PD looking for a officer to check the Bucher and i were told ((to be honest i am waiting here  for backup call go there if you get robbed call 911 we would be there soon )) and after i get robbed i call 911 they rob another guy after me the pin his car still i was waiting for a officer to come there 

sound  like a great roleplay officers only looking for active shootout and when comes to boring RP oh i wanna go of duty 

PS : it was a lots of officer always help me and they are great 

Edited by Qiang
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