Hold LEO factions to the same risk / reward Non-RP standards that criminals are held to.

[mikebumbum]

8 minutes ago, NM369 said:

I've been in PD myself and I can confirm that its easy to get used to the play to win mentality. I myself went extremely far into that play to win mentality, Patrolled in the helicopter non stop and I can barely remember the chases that we lost cause there weren't that many. And this was still in the days when the max speed wasn't 240Km/h.  

 

Convoys are nonRP now but PD/SD drives with 20 behind you, over sidewalks and the incorrect lane of travel just to catch up. With the new robbery rules criminals need to pretend that the city is heavely populated but they still drive cars as in the car bumper parks. perfect example below

https://streamable.com/szawu7

 

There's a lot of ruleplay going on when it comes to roleplaying as a LEO in here. I've seen a lot of them breach the force continuum when they could have avoided shootouts.

Cops giving demands like criminals and then lighting up a parking lot as it can be seen in this video. Nothing is ever done to take in a suspect peacefully instead of shootout.

 https://streamable.com/3n017n

 

The biggest issue is that people see high roleplay standards as in writing out long and detailed /me's and /do's. thats where the LEO factions do good at but people need to know that its just a tiny little part of it, Make a character, give it a backstory, fake an accent, Act out a fictional character instead of yourself. I've barely ever seen anyones PD character write a character story and stick to it.

the honesty you gave is what i wish the rest of the people in PD would admit to here but they wont because they dont want to have to follow more rules and get the right to do as they please taken from them

[Cyrus Raven]

3 minutes ago, mikebumbum said:

Please find me one video in real life where someone who PD is chasing drives on the wrong side of the highway and gets sprayed down mid driving the only time you will see PD shoot in a pursuit is when the person stops or crashes and goes to use force against the police stop trying to justify this shit like the other half of the server who isnt PD is showing their concerns and every cop who came in here either made a joke about the discussion or respond with laughing emotes. in real life you will never see a pursuit end with a truck with a machine gun on it shooting the car out. It doesnt matter if its a 1 time thing it should never be a thing. Thats like arguing i should be able to go to PD and kill a cop i really dont like because its a 1 time thing and i have a reason for it.

It again comes down to the feeling of the need to HAVE to catch some one under whatever means necessary which should just be an unacceptable mentality. Sometimes i really want to catch a criminal enemy if i cant just spray them out of their car for no reason you shouldn't be able to either we need to stop with the rules only applying to some people but others can do as they please.

 

Ok, let's say I concede your point.

Are you willing to enact the following measures on both sides to enhance the overall RP ?

- Reduce acceleration of all vehicles to better match what is seen in real life and prevent chases having to be stopped early due to lack of time to setup roadblocks and other less lethal measures.

- Disallow any street gang member from having any sports vehicle/bike or higher.

- Decrease PD Salary to better represent what an officer in real life would earn (essentially making it hard to acquire sports cars, etc...)

- Make it non-RP for anyone to wear a mask while not actively engaging in illegal activity, planning for it, or when used during appropriate social events or medical reasons.

- Make driving in the city in an unrealistic manner Non-RP unless justified through appropriate RP (emergency, committing crimes, evading police)

 

etc....

[FrankieP]

Cop metagames a /ame and doesnt get punished for it, instead the reporter is branded as 'extremely petty' by the handling admin.

This is what I mean, cops NEED to be held to the same RP standards as everyone else, it's shocking how much shit they get away with

[Cyrus Raven]

8 minutes ago, FrankieP said:

Cop metagames a /ame and doesnt get punished for it, instead the reporter is branded as 'extremely petty' by the handling admin.

This is what I mean, cops NEED to be held to the same RP standards as everyone else, it's shocking how much shit they get away with

Please stop bringing stuff up that you obviously haven't taken the time to read. Unless you have special knowledge that I don't that video doesn't show ANY officer MG'ing a /ame, it shows him searching a vehicle (using /me mind you) and then using the scripted way to search the car, that simple. Imagine thinking this is MG and worth a punishment, yikes.

But I guess you're the type of person to do a /ldo when searching a car you just stole to see if the owner RP'ly hid anything . I'm sure you would NEVER hop in the car and just press I or open the trunk and select search...

Edited October 14, 2020 by Kyle White Raven

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, Kenny V said:

Of all the times i've been pulled over no cop has EVER hopped right in my car like that and search my car.

I'm sorry, how is a player suppose to scriptly search the interior of the car unless they get in the car first ????

[mikebumbum]

1 minute ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Ok, let's say I concede your point.

Are you willing to enact the following measures on both sides to enhance the overall RP ?

- Reduce acceleration of all vehicles to better match what is seen in real life and prevent chases having to be stopped early due to lack of time to setup roadblocks and other less lethal measures.

- Disallow any street gang member from having any sports vehicle/bike or higher.

- Decrease PD Salary to better represent what an officer in real life would earn (essentially making it hard to acquire sports cars, etc...)

- Make it non-RP for anyone to wear a mask while not actively engaging in illegal activity, planning for it, or when used during appropriate social events or medical reasons.

- Make driving in the city in an unrealistic manner Non-RP unless justified through appropriate RP (emergency, committing crimes, evading police)

 

etc....

see all the points you made here is to again under leverage crims lets start with each point:

theres no reason to reduce acceleration for any car in the game. You do know in real life there is cars faster then police cruisers right? there is also bikes extremely faster then cruisers even highway cruisers cant keep up with some cars and bikes. What they do in real life is call over radio to set a cruiser up at the next exit. They use realistic strategies. Acceleration is not a problem i drive an F620 and while it does get to 240 has one of the slowest accelerations in a car ive ever driven and doesnt effect anything. Not all crims have nice expensive cars/bikes as they cant all afford them.

In real life there is different types of gangs right? in real life gangs there is no such thing as a specific vehicle a criminal drives not even a specific type. Maybe in the 90s ''street gangsters'' drove ''hoopdies'' but in todays world even they drive plenty of different types of cars i live in New York City and know blood members who drove 100,000 dollar cars depending on how much a person makes is how realistic their vehicle will be.

There is no reason to lower PD salary as they rarely use their own vehicles in chases unless they are one of the few allowed to use a super or drag this was your only point you tried to make that seemed to ''lower'' PDs advantage even though it would do nothing

the last 2 points this is still a game and not real life and everyones here to have fun and these changes would just ruin the server as a whole. The problem with PD is they already have all the advantages PD is dying for shoot outs to happen all day just like crims the difference is you come into a shootout with a free gun a free body armor a free car and the hopes to down everyone to lock them up for as long as possible and will complete that goal with no means of realism rather operating like you yourselves were in a gang.

Play crim for 3 months join a big gang then tell me how much you enjoy PD's presence and the constant abuse of power forced on them everyday again i get you want to be able to keep your win mentality going and are trying to argue these invalid points but things need to be changed from PD's side and soon not only do you have criminals complaining here but civs and ex cops if that doesnt show you that literally everyone outside of the faction is tired of having to deal with a constant force of power with no reprecussions then i dont know what to tell you.

There is a reason so many crims get reported and punishments and bans constantly and you barely see anything for PD and its not because PD has a superior level of RP its because of biased actions and everything some how tying into ''IC problems'' when it comes to PD

[FrankieP]

9 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Please stop bringing stuff up that you obviously haven't taken the time to read. Unless you have special knowledge that I don't that video doesn't show ANY officer MG'ing a /ame, it shows him searching a vehicle (using /me mind you) and then using the scripted way to search the car, that simple. Imagine thinking this is MG and worth a punishment, yikes.

I've seen it too often from officers. Cops that NEVER search vehicles will suddenly decide to do one on a regular traffic stop when they see a /ame. I've seen it from within SD, and was given shit on Teamspeak for calling our a senior deputy for doing it.

[Cyrus Raven]

2 minutes ago, mikebumbum said:

see all the points you made here is to again under leverage crims lets start with each point:

theres no reason to reduce acceleration for any car in the game. You do know in real life there is cars faster then police cruisers right? there is also bikes extremely faster then cruisers even highway cruisers cant keep up with some cars and bikes. What they do in real life is call over radio to set a cruiser up at the next exit. They use realistic strategies. Acceleration is not a problem i drive an F620 and while it does get to 240 has one of the slowest accelerations in a car ive ever driven and doesnt effect anything. Not all crims have nice expensive cars/bikes as they cant all afford them.

In real life there is different types of gangs right? in real life gangs there is no such thing as a specific vehicle a criminal drives not even a specific type. Maybe in the 90s ''street gangsters'' drove ''hoopdies'' but in todays world even they drive plenty of different types of cars i live in New York City and know blood members who drove 100,000 dollar cars depending on how much a person makes is how realistic their vehicle will be.

There is no reason to lower PD salary as they rarely use their own vehicles in chases unless they are one of the few allowed to use a super or drag this was your only point you tried to make that seemed to ''lower'' PDs advantage even though it would do nothing

the last 2 points this is still a game and not real life and everyones here to have fun and these changes would just ruin the server as a whole. The problem with PD is they already have all the advantages PD is dying for shoot outs to happen all day just like crims the difference is you come into a shootout with a free gun a free body armor a free car and the hopes to down everyone to lock them up for as long as possible and will complete that goal with no means of realism rather operating like you yourselves were in a gang.

Play crim for 3 months join a big gang then tell me how much you enjoy PD's presence and the constant abuse of power forced on them everyday again i get you want to be able to keep your win mentality going and are trying to argue these invalid points but things need to be changed from PD's side and soon not only do you have criminals complaining here but civs and ex cops if that doesnt show you that literally everyone outside of the faction is tired of having to deal with a constant force of power with no reprecussions then i dont know what to tell you.

There is a reason so many crims get reported and punishments and bans constantly and you barely see anything for PD and its not because PD has a superior level of RP its because of biased actions and everything some how tying into ''IC problems'' when it comes to PD

Good to know. The fact is you don't seem to actually care about increasing RP opportunities at all, just nerf PD. I have no interest in participating in a such a conversation. As OP pointed out, this isn't supposed to be a cops vs crims thread, but solely to discuss risk/reward from PD perspective. 

Imagine spinning a suggestion to decrease EVERY VEHICLE acceleration as somehow me wanting to give PD vehicles an advantage and thinking one member in some gang in NYC with a 100k vehicle is somehow the norm for most gangs around the US.

The main points I got were:

- PD is OP

- Any suggestion that affects both sides is you wanting PD to still be OP

- Also PD is OP cause staff members and muh punishments.  

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, FrankieP said:

I've seen it too often from officers. Cops that NEVER search vehicles will suddenly decide to do one on a regular traffic stop when they see a /ame. I've seen it from within SD, and was given shit on Teamspeak for calling our a senior deputy for doing it.

If it's done in a way that would breach NRP, then REPORT IT. However, don't expect to disassemble and put away an Assault Rifle and somehow expect people not to notice, but like I said, this would only really be seen under certain circumstances, so report it if you think it is non-RP.

To make it clear though, this has nothing to do with what you posted. The matter of fact is, the guy was already in cuffs for reasons neither you or I know and the officer appropriately searched the car even including RP along the way. Using this as an example or ''proof'' of Police metagaming /ame is NOT valid.

[Cyrus Raven]

4 minutes ago, Kenny V said:

Why report it when most reports against pd gets laughed at and tossed out

Putting aside the validity of this statement, I love how the only justification for ''most reports against pd gets laughed at and tossed out'' has to be because of bias, it can't possibly be because of the report simply not being valid or any other million reasons. Glad to see we've resorted to conspiracy theory level arguments where PD is actually protected by the all mighty staff team and that's actually why they don't get punished. Guess the two officers (one detective) who got a Non-RP and Metaming punishment recently are exceptions to keep people thinking that staff is unbiased and not actually a legit punishment /s 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Kyle White Raven

[mikebumbum]

12 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Good to know. The fact is you don't seem to actually care about increasing RP opportunities at all, just nerf PD. I have no interest in participating in a such a conversation. As OP pointed out, this isn't supposed to be a cops vs crims thread, but solely to discuss risk/reward from PD perspective. 

Imagine spinning a suggestion to decrease EVERY VEHICLE acceleration as somehow me wanting to give PD vehicles an advantage and thinking one member in some gang in NYC with a 100k vehicle is somehow the norm for most gangs around the US.

The main points I got were:

- PD is OP

- Any suggestion that affects both sides is you wanting PD to still be OP

- Also PD is OP cause staff members and muh punishments.  

no one said anything about nerfing anything but you? PD is OP and should be nerfed but thats a completely different argument and not what this thread is for. You literally said lower acceleration on all cars so its easier for us to catch you..? thats how you word things thats how its perceived from the win mentality you want to keep. If that one comment doesnt show how badly some cops feel about the need to have to catch people then this conversation is pointless

This suggestion is that PD needs new rules to keep themselves in check just like crims received but you came in here like you do with every other post regarding PD and tried to validate the actions the PD committed against people.

If crims cant be trusted to do certain things and need rules around them PD also needs specific rules to keep them in check.

Edited October 14, 2020 by mikebumbum

[Copperhorse]

47 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Second Video: (continuation of previous segment)

In my personal opinion, the force used by Police can be justified in most cases. We more often that not give adequate warning via megaphone and what determines whether or not we shoot a fleeing vehicle is entirely dependent on the crimes committed and the way they are being committed. If someone is driving a high-speed vehicle on the wrong side of the road, in the city, through sidewalks, etc... going at an average speed of 180-200km/h then they have escalated their crimes from Felony Evasion to Felony Evasion and Felony Public Endangerment. What this means in terms of RP is that these suspects have a very high chance of hitting, injuring and/or killing someone given their negligent behaviour on the road, thus the decision sometimes PD takes to ''go for tires''. This is NOT the norm and only if certain conditions are met will the decision be made. 

In the case of the video in specific I have no idea what type of information the officers in question were acting on. What I can see is someone who was seen already driving recklessly in the city with a sports car, chasing someone. Then police initiated a pursuit on you and observed you at high-speeds in the city limit, driving recklessly and failing to maintain lane and then cutting across four lanes of travel and heading into the incorrect lane of travel for what would be a heavily populated high-way. You were given demands to stop or lethal force would be used at 1:00 in your video. You were then fired upon at 1:23 after being given the same demands two more times. In the video people from your own side claimed the frequency was compromised and SWAT was listening in. Like I said, I do not know what information the officers were acting on, but the video you posted shows you Felony Evading and Felony Public Endangerment, between letting you continue driving in such a way and striking other civilians on the highway while going on the wrong side or attempting to stop you by shooting at your vehicle I would say the latter is justified given that you put yourself in a position to be chased by PD when you chose to commit these felonies in city limits at high-speeds, which would realistically impact several civilians. 

A valid response to somebody driving recklessly is to not up the ante with uncontrollable automatic fire going 140+. If you want to reduce the risk to the general public you would try to get a helicopter on him and stop pursuing via vehicle. You can see this happening often in real police departments where they manage risk. When the person thinks they've successfully evaded they drive more carefully as they are not under as much stress. They pull into their house, park their car, and boom suddenly 20 cops at the door. 

Sure in that situation it's a fast vehicle and the units in the city wouldn't have been able to catch up. But I can't out run the radio. It would be much more feasible to launch a helicopter and have units in the county looking out for the vehicle in question.

So even with you saying felony public endangerment, it does not warrant what happend in that video. Shooting automatic firearms vehicle to vehicle is even more felony public endangerment than driving a car recklessly would be.

 

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, mikebumbum said:

You literally said lower acceleration on all cars so its easier for us to catch you..? thats how you word things thats how its perceived from the win mentality you want to keep.

I said lower acceleration to make it realistic which would naturally mean PD (and crims too I guess) have more time to work with when setting stuff up long-term, thus avoiding the whole PIT as soon as you can or shoot after demands mentality YOU were arguing against...

How this translates to ''it's easier for us to catch you'' is beyond me, but k

[Cyrus Raven]

5 minutes ago, Copperhorse said:

A valid response to somebody driving recklessly is to not up the ante with uncontrollable automatic fire going 140+. If you want to reduce the risk to the general public you would try to get a helicopter on him and stop pursuing via vehicle. You can see this happening often in real police departments where they manage risk. When the person thinks they've successfully evaded they drive more carefully as they are not under as much stress. They pull into their house, park their car, and boom suddenly 20 cops at the door. 

Sure in that situation it's a fast vehicle and the units in the city wouldn't have been able to catch up. But I can't out run the radio. It would be much more feasible to launch a helicopter and have units in the county looking out for the vehicle in question.

So even with you saying felony public endangerment, it does not warrant what happend in that video. Shooting automatic firearms vehicle to vehicle is even more felony public endangerment than driving a car recklessly would be.

 

I agree. I don't think automatic gun-fire should be authorized solely based on what was seen on the video, but I don't know if the people chasing you (SWAT) had other information they were acting on.  Since I wouldn't go as far to say that behaviour is never acceptable, I would have to know the reason behind their actions. 

 

But generally, yes I agree.

[ize]

Agreed, but also there isn't a point in making a thread like this I don't think.

I've seen similiar threads to this making the same point(s) multiple times and they are always shut down with no proper discussion being had, you get a few people who play cops as there main come on here and make snide remarks (which has already happened on this thread) and that's it.

[Macc]

@Kyle White Raven have you ever been in a criminal faction for more than 4 months?

 

[Cyrus Raven]

3 minutes ago, Eoghan_Macc said:

@Kyle White Raven have you ever been in a criminal faction for more than 4 months?

 

No.

[Macc]

1 minute ago, Kyle White Raven said:

No.

Then you would agree with me that your inputs and opinions are biased towards PD and not towards general RP experience of the avg person regardless of whether they are criminal or legal?

[pepijn26]

We are not here to nerf PD in any way, but the way they play has to be changed. With almost 9 months in the LSPD I have a lot of knowledge about the win mentality. Get killed? no problem, run to PD grab a new gun and take a free cruiser. In all my days on crim I never had the chance to RP and get myself out of the problems, they will just find a new way to fuck you up or hold you for a long time until they got something on you. The same with shooting on a car, they are allowed to shoot only on the highways. They give 2 demands and then open fire with Micro's until you stall or crash.

 

Cops are just able to take out free guns and shoot at you and don't care about losing it. If I shoot an officer I got to jail for 2+ hours get fined 10K+ and lose my weapons so I lose over 75K+ for just shooting someone. Officers just use their macro's to grab the weapons from the gun locker and spray you down. Once I tried to rob an officer but failed to do so, Chief of PD called SWAT and gave them the right to open fire on me with micro's the second they saw me. They don't care about public safety and expect us to play like civs.

[Cyrus Raven]

5 minutes ago, Eoghan_Macc said:

Then you would agree with me that your inputs and opinions are biased towards PD and not towards general RP experience of the avg person regardless of whether they are criminal or legal?

100%. I try my best not to be bias, but I of course recognize that my thoughts and views will naturally contain some sort of bias because I only play as a LEO. I do try and keep an open mind on these discussions when talking about ways to increase RP, but I will always try and point out inconsistencies in arguments which happens often when talking about ''PD realism''.

Example: Someone complains PD has supers, but fails to recognize that sports cars and sports bikes are a very common type of vehicle amongst criminals too (especially those that can go 240km/h+), not to mention the strict protocols around using them these vehicles.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Kyle White Raven

[Copperhorse]

12 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

100%. I try my best not to be bias, but I of course recognize that my thoughts and views will naturally contain some sort of bias because I only play as a LEO. I do try and keep an open mind on these discussions when talking about ways to increase RP, but I will always try and point out inconsistencies in arguments which happens often when talking about ''PD realism''.

Example: Someone complains PD has supers, but fails to recognize that sports cars and sports bikes are a very common type of vehicle amongst criminals too (especially those that can go 240km/h+), not to mention the strict protocols around using them these vehicles.

That's why I'm not calling for any of those changes in this thread. Others are but I'm not. That is a Crim vs PD discussion that has already been turned down by staff. All I'm asking for is the enforcement of a roleplay standard of RPing the streets are occupied with citizens to be applied to everyone. Criminals and PD / SD included. It is not fair to ask one portion of the server to RP as such but not another. Enforcing this standard on everyone will improve everyones roleplay experience and help further distance the server from a GTA:Online style of roleplay that the staff team is trying to get rid of with the more stringent robbery rules.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Copperhorse

[pepijn26]

2 hours ago, FrankieP said:

and love throwing crim characters in jail for the maximum amount of time possible (charge stacking, slapping the book).

https://streamable.com/2qgv4f this is what 90%+ of PD does. Give extra charges so they get locked up and you can walk away like nothing happend. 

Just because the see the DOC transport van they are willing to place extra charges so you get locked up even longer, the penal code says 20 minutes for failure to comply. Oh no imagine following the rules, Bam just give him 110 minutes.

[Cyrus Raven]

4 minutes ago, Copperhorse said:

That's why I'm not calling for any of those changes in this thread. Others are but I'm not. That is a Crim vs PD discussion that has already been turned down by staff. All I'm asking for is the enforcement of a roleplay standard of RPing the streets are occupied with citizens to be applied to everyone. Criminals and PD / SD included. It is not fair to ask one portion of the server to RP as such but not another. Enforcing this standard on everyone will improve everyones roleplay experience and help further distance the server from a GTA:Online style of roleplay.

I agree. So lets get down to it, what do you think should be the bar for when an officer can open fire on a vehicle ? Or do you think this shouldn't be done at all ?

[Copperhorse]

13 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I agree. So lets get down to it, what do you think should be the bar for when an officer can open fire on a vehicle ? Or do you think this shouldn't be done at all ?

I can't say for all circumstances, but in general if you have somebody who committed a violent felony and they are in a secluded location where the risk of stray bullets striking civilians is non-existent it would be okay in terms of a risk / reward standpoint to use lethal force if the suspect chose not to surrender after demands of lethal force being used were issued.

If that same person who previously committed a violent felony sticks to populated areas deadly force should not be used unless they are actively firing at officers or civilians from their vehicle, if they are intentionally ramming officers or civilians on foot, or ramming vehicles with the intention to cause great bodily injury or death.

As with criminal robberies, the risk / reward should be of what a reasonable officer or criminal would do. It would be on a case by case basis given the totality of the circumstances. But those are some general guidelines that I would think are appropriate.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Copperhorse

[Macc]

5 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Example: Someone complains PD has supers, but fails to recognize that sports cars and sports bikes are a very common type of vehicle amongst criminals too (especially those that can go 240km/h+), not to mention the strict protocols around using them these vehicles.

In the name of realism and understanding the actual real life examples of this. Take for instance the Komoda, the real life counterpart is the Alfa Romeo Giulia which is 72k dollars stock. This car has a top speed in a straight line of 192MPH. Now this car in ECRP does 210KMH, the equivalent of 130MPH. The basic police cruiser in ECRP as you have said above pushes 220KMH. Now that being said, in both real life and in ECRP the Komoda is considered a midrange car. However the alfa romeo giulia reaches speeds of 192MPH in real life. 
Now the crown vic is what the basic police cruiser in ECRP is based on. In most states in America these cruisers are limited to 140MPH at most. 
Do you see where the imbalance comes into this? 

The police cruiser is actually quite similar to how it is IRL but a midrange car in ECRP is nerfed down to a point where the cruiser can 9/10 catch it on straight line speed.

My point is, you dont need a sports car to outrun cops in real life. You need a sedan with a powerful engine. 

So you can see, when the chases are biased in favour of PD and criminals lose lots of OOC time when they are caught, this is an issue with PD versus Crim. The end goal of a PO in ECRP is to arrest people and this is made easier by the likes of my example above. 

I wonder when it will reach the point where criminal lifes get so bad that nobody wants to play it, and cops sit and patrol the pier all day.