Hold LEO factions to the same risk / reward Non-RP standards that criminals are held to.

[Copperhorse]

I've been noticing recently that the RP standards of these factions (PD / SD) are not up to par with what we've been told how the roleplay is supposed to be on ECRP in terms of the risk / reward of their actions. Somewhat recently, new rules were introduced to ECRP regarding unrealistic actions by criminals. The rule is here:

• Robberies should be conducted in a realistic manner with reasonable in-character motive using secluded areas. Players should not conduct minor robberies in situations with high risk. Desert or forest areas are considered secluded but witnesses should still be considered.

Basically, we're advised to RP that we're living in a live metropolitan city. In locations where there are no other actual ECRP players, we are still required to RP as if there are NPC civilians in that area. Realistically there would be people there and even in GTA there would be people there if it was not for RAGE:MP limitations. We've grown to be accustomed to this rule and for the most part has improved the roleplay standards of criminals. On the other hand, there are a lot of PD situations that don't seem realistic at all and don't follow the same risk / reward standard that the criminals of this server are supposed to uphold. I'll list some evidence of this which recently happend in the past 2-3 days below and explain how they are unrealistic.

Video #1:

https://streamable.com/5x60ay

In this video, you'll see a vehicle that was stolen from the commissioner by somebody using a lockpick. They were then chased by 10+ PD and a helicopter on a major freeway. In this video, it's clear that they are not held to any type of risk / reward standard that the rest of the server is held to. RPly, that highway would have vehicles in both lanes of travel. A Head Admin decided that it would be realistic and appropriate to use a .50 cal minigun and spray it down a major freeway for somebody who is simply felony evading. In no way shape or form was this person severely threatening the lives of the public or the officers to justify deadly force. Each one of those .50 caliber bullets would go straight through the vehicle and down the road for another mile until it hit into the dirt. 

The reward in this situation is KILLING somebody for Grand Theft Auto and Felony Evading. With the amount of presence PD had on this chase and taking into account the performance of a SUV, there was little no chance of this person getting away knowing the circumstances he was in. Shooting a .50 cal at him was completely unnecessary.

The risk in this situation was countless innocent lives on a major freeway being hit by a .50 caliber bullet that is being SPRAYED with no time to steady the vehicle that is being driven or steady the next shot.

The risk / reward in this situation that was approved by a head administrator is blatant non-rp and should be punished, but we know that it wont be. Would you be able to tell the difference between GTA:Online and a roleplay server watching this video?

Video #2:

 

In this video you'll see that I was chasing somebody in the city. PD / SD saw the chase and decided to turn on it and try to pursue it. There was a major head on accident where 1 person injured himself and another person stalled his vehicle. For some reason PD / SD decided to begin pursuing the F620 instead of attending to the injured. At this point I never threatened any person (gang or LEO) with any type of deadly force. Within 5 seconds I was being given demands to pull over or lethal force would be used. Knowing that I was going to be arrested, I decided to felony evade. As soon as I got on a major freeway one of the police officers acted on his demands and started spraying a Micro SMG vehicle to vehicle going speeds of 140 km/h+. Lets again go through the risk / reward of this situation from a PD POV.

The reward in this situation is to capture or KILL (bullets are not 100% accurate) somebody for reckless driving and felony evading.

The risk in this situation is having one of those 100 Micro SMG bullets that were shot by the officer hit another vehicle or person that would RPly be on that highway during mid day.

It's clear that the risk / reward in this situation is not realistic. When's the last time you saw a police department shoot from vehicle to vehicle an automatic firearm for somebody just evading police? Had I been shooting back or had I murdered somebody that they knew of it would be one thing. But just for felony evading?

In conclusion:

The standard of roleplay in terms of risk / reward is not being evenly applied across the server. There are blatant risk / reward actions from both PD and SD that continue to go unpunished. This is a community suggestion for the staff of ECRP to hold EVERYONE to the same roleplay standards. To act like shooting somebody is the only way to stop their pursuit is ridiculous. There are script tools built into this server to stop pursuits by PD. You can PIT maneuver, you can spike strip them, or you can follow them with a helicopter until they think they've lost PD. All of these scenarios are common in real police departments. Only as a last resort, where peoples lives are on the line should deadly force be used from vehicle to vehicle. There is so much risk involved in doing so, which is why you would never see these actions from real police departments. All of these officers would be in prison. Please feel free to post any stories, suggestions, comments, or concerns relating to this.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Copperhorse

[mikebumbum]

big plus 1 to this literally hate interacting with 75% of cops because the server becomes there power trip where no realistic police actions are taken into account rather its just to win and see how long they can put someone in jail. 

Also the tazing people through a window should literally just be classed as non rp its become so frequently done that it seems like the norm now you will never see a cop trying to pull over a bike or drive passed a person in real life and taze them tazers dont even work like that

to all PD its okay to lose its a game arresting people to just do it does not accomplish anything besides halt rp on your end and the crims end as they are forced to sit in jail for X amount of hours rather then actually being able to RP with others and yourself

I think PD needs to be completely relooked and just as crims have gotten new OOC rules for being ''too excessive'' PD needs some new rules to follow as well to keep things in check

 

EDIT: The IA system also needs a rehaul as clearly it is useless and has been talked about being useless for over a year now on another thread

Edited October 14, 2020 by Kris
added double post.

[givejoshamosin]

21 minutes ago, mikebumbum said:

Also the tazing people through a window should literally just be classed as non rp its become so frequently done that it seems like the norm now you will never see a cop trying to pull over a bike or drive passed a person in real life and taze them tazers dont even work like that

https://streamable.com/xutukk (today)

Above no prior RP - just smashing a cruiser window (Non RP as hell) to then taze someone off a bike - Leading to the crim getting a Non RP, when in real life, I can't name one time I have seen a cop purposely smash their own window purely to taze someone they are trying to do a traffic stop on 

Not all of PD, but a large amount has a huge play to win mentality. 

The hours of work it takes to get stuff done on crim, to spend more time in prison when you haven't even committed a crime, is off putting to a lot of people. I personally accept the current repercussions for being a criminal. But when something like this: https://streamable.com/sxnc4u happens - with no prior RP, just the owner of the car had a previous criminal record (not a current one, he had served his time). Causing 4 people to go to prison and hours in jail + fines, clearly shows a play to win mentality. But its always all ok for PD because they just respawn, get what they need from their locker and hop back into a cruiser.

I must say, SD operates much more professionally, and in a realistic manner, at least in my opinion.

Edited October 14, 2020 by givejoshamosin

[krokan]

Big plus one on this. Criminal factions are supposed to be realistic in order to obtain official status, driving authentic cars, owning authentic buildings, changing their behavior, etc. Not to mention all the other OOC rules governing correct crim behavior. I've seen police act in ways and do shit that is so beyond the pale of what any authentic police department would do, it's nutso. Whole justice system and police departments need a total overhaul.

[pepijn26]

Since I fully started playing crim I realized that PD is fully out to just win every RP scene, I got arrested last week for failure to comply, just because they saw the DOC guards they wanted to add extra charges on me "it's failure to comply for now, but I will add some other things" they just want to lock you up as long as possible for nothing. There is nothing for them to lose, maybe the water and the burger in their inventory, but they will just respawn and grab all the weapons again and go out.

 

The other day I evaded from the cops and turned myself in later. One officer ran to a higher up to ask permissions to raid my houe just for the felony evasion, where is the realism in this. Because I evade from them gives them the right to raid my house and take it all?

Edit: back to that insurgent, PD members can not spawn the insurgent with the 50cal. The vehicle is spawned by the commissionair, that means it was spawned by admins, there is no reason to spawn this vehicle and give it to PD members.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Kris
Edited in double post

[Vasquez]

That first video was way overkill, I mean it looked like a real nice real life chase, then they opened fore with a .50 cal machine gun that is normally used by the military? That’s pure power trip and unnecessary. I haven’t experienced this kind of police abusing their power as I’m not a criminal, but they should definitely have the same roleplay expectations as criminals, or they are at fault for contributing to a cop vs robber server mentality.

 

100% Supported

[Qiang]

+ 1 

when we have more then 22 member of staff  stack up in  PD SD and law enforcement It's perfectly normal and obvious that we have these problems 

maybe in 2018 ,2019 PD wasn't that strong but right know after robbery rules they remove more then 60% of the PD rp so i dont blame them if they target criminals and chasing them because they are bored that's why if you wanna RP criminal the chance you get arrested is more then 90 % by just seating inside your vehicle at pier is would be a officer asking you to step out your vehicle (because you are in gang color or he saw you 2 days ago active shootout ). 

and the worst part is PD officer not getting Permaban it was more then 5 report about PD officer doing MG NONRP why only a punishment on record why not ban ?

every faction on eclipse RP have rules if you break a OOC rules you will get demoted ICliy why we don't have this in PD ?

 

[LikeASumBoodie]

+1

As much as it's sad to say, a lot of my encounters with PD is very unenjoyable. There are a good handful of people that make it enjoyable but the ratio of good encounters and bad encounters is very skewed in my own personal experience. I would also like to state that my bad encounters aren't because of me going to jail, I'm perfectly fine with doing time as I am aware of the repercussions of being a criminal has... but when the standards of CrimRP is expected to be as high and satisfactory for the community, shouldn't PD/SD be accounted for the bettering of the community? Multiple things PD do is mainly "IC" which in my opinion, is absolutely ridiculous. Especially when you attempt to talk it out with said officer, all you are really presented with is "IA report it." I get that we're here to simulate reality and not everything can be enforced based off real life scenarios, but something needs to be done about how much freedom PD/SD has in comparison to Crims regarding rules. 

Ironic that i mention the "IC issue" in this post and the "Ic issue" comment was made right after i posted it and was deleted...

Edited October 14, 2020 by LikeASumBoodie

[Bala]

The LSPD is one of the factions that is held to the highest possible standard on the server and while on occasion, individuals might do things that let themselves and the faction down on occasion, ultimately the standard of our role-play is among the highest in the server.

You want to talk about realism, but only when it backs up your own grievances with the police factions. Half of you posting don't give two fucks about the role-play standard, you just want more freedom to play the game you want with little to no impunity. It's always the same in these threads, criminals shaking it like a salt shaker. Perhaps if some of you had a little more credibility yourselves, you'd be taken more seriously. 

Consider that first incident for a second. That vehicle that was blown up, was an armour plated Baller. The only one on the server and it was located on a scene with the largest concentration of cops i've seen in months and yet a criminal decided to steal it and take it for a joy ride. Special circumstances require special measures. It's not like an Insurgent shooting a .50cal at a bulletproof car on a highway is an every day occurrence. It's happened once.

Talk to me about realism when you're not driving around on a drag bike 200km/h+ in the city wearing pyjamas with an AK on your back and a song in your heart all day.

 

[mikebumbum]

2 minutes ago, Bala said:

The LSPD is one of the factions that is held to the highest possible standard on the server and while on occasion, individuals might do things that let themselves and the faction down on occasion, ultimately the standard of our role-play is among the highest in the server.

You want to talk about realism, but only when it backs up your own grievances with the police factions. Half of you posting don't give two fucks about the role-play standard, you just want more freedom to play the game you want with little to no impunity. It's always the same in these threads, criminals shaking it like a salt shaker. Perhaps if some of you had a little more credibility yourselves, you'd be taken more seriously. 

Consider that first incident for a second. That vehicle that was blown up, was an armour plated Baller. The only one on the server and it was located on a scene with the largest concentration of cops i've seen in months and yet a criminal decided to steal it and take it for a joy ride. Special circumstances require special measures. It's not like an Insurgent shooting a .50cal at a bulletproof car on a highway is an every day occurrence. It's happened once.

Talk to me about realism when you're not driving around on a drag bike 200km/h+ in the city wearing pyjamas with an AK on your back and a song in your heart all day.

 

This right here is the problem with the server you literally have legal players who arent even crims responding to this thread saying they even have problems wth PD you guys say your held to a high standard but you're literally not..

You guys tell people you are but we all watch it happen everyday and i know you yourself have seen the amount of non rp situations cops will abuse because they know nothing will happen to them. I understand you dont want your faction to be restricted to more rules then you have already but it is 100% necessary as PD members cant hold themselves accountable for what they do clearly. If you see me on a drag with pajama pants (which dont see how pajama pants are a problem) with an AK on my back chase the shit out of me sure. But when you guys want to use power to force a situation because you ''know'' something or many other examples it kills all RP for crims 

 

Another example Jason Steel said he had an investigation against me and found me and arrested me 4 times with force while i complied. pulled me over for ''speeding'' one of the times i sat with my car off and he had 2 swat trucks smash into my car from both sides and had 10 swat members aim carbines at me for a .50 after the 1st or 2nd time when does it become realistic to keep arresting me under the same reasoning it would be almost like a form of NLR now i think Jason Steel is one of the best PD RPers if im being honest but at a a point it gets a little ridiculous where the members just dont care because they know they can do it. We need some form of realism with PD if you want crims to act more realistic as im not going to risk being caught driving something slower or having some fun with you guys when i know you just want to toss me into jail for as long as humanly possible.

PD needs to keep in mind plenty of people have jobs, go to school, do other things etc and for you to want to put someone in jail on a game for 3/4/5 hours for trying to have fun you can ruin their whole night or multiple days of play time. Enough is enough with the excuse that its an IC issue

[Copperhorse]

1 hour ago, Bala said:

The LSPD is one of the factions that is held to the highest possible standard on the server and while on occasion, individuals might do things that let themselves and the faction down on occasion, ultimately the standard of our role-play is among the highest in the server.

You want to talk about realism, but only when it backs up your own grievances with the police factions. Half of you posting don't give two fucks about the role-play standard, you just want more freedom to play the game you want with little to no impunity. It's always the same in these threads, criminals shaking it like a salt shaker. Perhaps if some of you had a little more credibility yourselves, you'd be taken more seriously. 

Consider that first incident for a second. That vehicle that was blown up, was an armour plated Baller. The only one on the server and it was located on a scene with the largest concentration of cops i've seen in months and yet a criminal decided to steal it and take it for a joy ride. Special circumstances require special measures. It's not like an Insurgent shooting a .50cal at a bulletproof car on a highway is an every day occurrence. It's happened once.

Talk to me about realism when you're not driving around on a drag bike 200km/h+ in the city wearing pyjamas with an AK on your back and a song in your heart all day.

 

I am strictly talking about risk / reward non-rp in this thread. There are a lot of things that we pass off as "just a game" on both sides of the aisle. Ultimately certain PD characters do have some great RP compared to the rest of the server. I never disagreed or said anything to the contrary. Just like criminals there's some good RPers and some bad ones. We have rules in place to prevent the bad ones from ruining the roleplay experience of the rest of the server. Why would you not want the same standard to be held for people in your faction? Are you not for enforcing a good roleplay experience for everyone involved? Do you only want to enforce the rules when it benefits you? Have some care about the roleplay experience of the rest of the server, it's not all about you.

The problem is that we can't pass this off as "just a game" because it's not done so for the rest of the server. Driving on the wrong side of the road during a pursuit, sure it's not realistic but ultimately it doesn't really impact anyone's roleplay. We've pretty much agreed that it doesn't meet the standard of being non-rp for this server. What we have established due to the new rules is a risk / reward system for criminals. If you are risking a lot for a much smaller reward, it's considered non-rp and you will get punished for it. All I'm asking for is for that standard to be equal for EVERYONE in the server.

Frankly there's a lot of stuff in this thread that is more "Crim vs PD". We've had that argument before and it went nowhere. I'm not trying to have this thread turn into that. There's a lot of stuff that I agree with and some that I don't agree with unrelated to the risk / reward that I am bringing attention to. If you are for enforcing a higher roleplay standard for EVERYONE in ECRP instead of a certain portion of the player base, I don't know why anyone would be against my suggestion. This was not meant to be controversial. When the new non-rp robbery rules were added a lot of the criminals on the server saw it from civilian / PD POV and agreed with the new rule because it provided higher quality roleplay. I expect PD / SD members to do the same. I'm not asking for a PD economy overhaul, I'm not asking for looting PD weapons, I'm not asking for slower police cars, I'm not asking for realistic deployment of SWAT, I'm not asking for a judicial system. I'm simply asking for fairness in the enforcement of a roleplay standard set by the staff team.

Even if you want to say that stealing that commissioners car was non-rp, it does not mean that you should lower your standard of roleplay to the people you are roleplaying with. If we all did that the server would be a shit fest. There was no way in hell that SUV would've gotten away from that convoy of police. Shooting him with a .50 cal minigun was super unrealistic and had no care in the world for the risk / reward of doing so. It's not like this is a one time thing either. It is a common occurrence that PD / SD will use lethal force on a vehicle for felony evading even on major highways which are RPly populated with cars. It is lazy and unrealistic "roleplay". How much more roleplay is involved setting up spike strips down the road and communicating with your fellow officers? Or making sure everyone is ready for a PIT maneuver and box them in. Shooting at people for felony evading simply is lazy, unrealistic, and provides a poor standard of roleplay for the criminal and for the police involved. It simply has crossed the line of the acceptable realism that the staff has made people follow as of recently. All we want is for that standard, whatever it may be, to be applied to EVERYONE equally. Is fairness too much to ask for?

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Copperhorse

[Speed Racer]

4 hours ago, Bala said:

The LSPD is one of the factions that is held to the highest possible standard on the server and while on occasion, individuals might do things that let themselves and the faction down on occasion, ultimately the standard of our role-play is among the highest in the server.

You want to talk about realism, but only when it backs up your own grievances with the police factions. Half of you posting don't give two fucks about the role-play standard, you just want more freedom to play the game you want with little to no impunity. It's always the same in these threads, criminals shaking it like a salt shaker. Perhaps if some of you had a little more credibility yourselves, you'd be taken more seriously. 

Consider that first incident for a second. That vehicle that was blown up, was an armour plated Baller. The only one on the server and it was located on a scene with the largest concentration of cops i've seen in months and yet a criminal decided to steal it and take it for a joy ride. Special circumstances require special measures. It's not like an Insurgent shooting a .50cal at a bulletproof car on a highway is an every day occurrence. It's happened once.

Talk to me about realism when you're not driving around on a drag bike 200km/h+ in the city wearing pyjamas with an AK on your back and a song in your heart all day.

 

Couldn't disagree more with this. There are numerous things that PD do, ranging in size and severity, that are not of high RP standards. Most of the big ticket issues have already been brought up here - tazing from windows, lethal force for non-lethal crimes - while some smaller ticket issues include a lack of RP to spawn vehicles (if the mechanics and DCC have done it for ages, why can't LEOs?) and imagining magnetic hooks on your rusty tow trucks so you don't have to get out and RP hooking up a car that you're impounding. The notion that people in PD actually believe they're held to the highest standard possible and FLAUNT that claim is confusing and borderline appalling to me, a non-crim player.

 

As for comments on the OP, I couldn't agree more. I've felt extremely uneasy lately with the RP situations I've seen stem from Head Admin actions.
          That scene with the .50 Cal gun on the highway was straight from GTA:O with a complete disregard for the fact that, as many player reports have stated, "The highway should be RP'd as a busy interstate and actions take on or near it should take that into account."
          The spawning of a Coquette D10 the other night, seemingly just to give SD and PD something to chase and then lockup once found, comes off very sour to a player base that's been asking for new cars for a while. What this says is "Look, we can spawn in cars that were added incredibly recently to GTA:O, we just haven't done so for any of you." It appears this D10 issue wasn't one of providing RP for LEO factions, but a case of a Head Admin not understanding why they were spawning in a vehicle in the first place. Still an issue in my eyes, but an off-topic one for this post so I'll drop it.
          Do you think we'd ever see a Head Admin on a crim character spawning in a Technical (pickup truck with a machine gun in the bed) or an armored Karuma for their Crim RP?

Combining these instances with how often Head Admins have been LOA'd recently just gives the perception that they're bored and using the server as their own playground in an effort to maybe reinvigorate their interest. As a player, it's very discouraging to see this. ICly, I've been unaffected by any of this - I turn myself in when I get Reckless Ops from cameras, I pull over when a cop flashes his lights because I don't want felonies (and thankfully they're not bad enough to stack charges on a non-violent civilian), by and large I'm fine. OOCly though, I get tired and anxious having to deal with cops on this server because you never know if you'll get one that will actually RP with you, or is just there to coldly hand you a ticket and move on to the next victim.

+1 OP, thanks for the post.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Baxter Verstetten

[givejoshamosin]

37 minutes ago, IAmTurtle said:

I made that post and never deleted it. 

 

Most crims are play to win and then get real mad when cops are play to win. 

Please tell me how man crims don't down grade there graphics to in an insanely low level just so they can grind out as man fps as possible so it is easier to drive away and win in shoot outs.

I personally don’t do this, but please explain how this negatively effects PD? Your cruisers go 240 and can easily catch up on a chase for 99% of vehicles apart from a F620 and Retro on highway and a Drag and an Issi Sport in the city. 

You literally have helicopters... if a crim is boosting his FPS for whatever reason, it shouldn’t matter. Maybe he/she doesn’t want to go to prison for 5 hours. 
 

Furthermore, you literally have been given supercars which in my opinion is ridiculous. The only police force who I have seen have supers in the real world is Dubai, and as someone who used to live there I know they don’t actively use them, they’re more of a advertisement for the emirate and country. 
 

You may be held to certain standards, but when those standards are broken, rarely do I see repercussions towards the LSPD. 
 

In my opinion, LSPD should be charged for the weapons they take on duty, I’m not talking ridiculous prices, maybe 3k for a .50, 8k for a shotgun etc and they get charged this whenever they take it out the locker, and refunded it if they put it back in when ending duty. This adds some accountability to LSPD and maybe we will stop seeing so many hero cops trying to 1 v 3 criminals. I know charging LSPD members can also be seen as unrealistic, but it’s got to the point where they do not care if they die. 

[Bala]

24 minutes ago, givejoshamosin said:

I personally don’t do this, but please explain how this negatively effects PD? Your cruisers go 240 and can easily catch up on a chase for 99% of vehicles apart from a F620 and Retro on highway and a Drag and an Issi Sport in the city. 

I don't know about you but if my cruiser goes 220 I'm buzzing lmao.

How fast do those vehicles accelerate? Let's be honest, there's a reason why they're the vehicle of choice lol.

24 minutes ago, givejoshamosin said:

You literally have helicopters... if a crim is boosting his FPS for whatever reason, it shouldn’t matter. Maybe he/she doesn’t want to go to prison for 5 hours.
 

We literally have helicopters that will top out normally about 230 and they have to fly at 700m+, at which point if someone lags, good luck playing guess which way they are going with the desync.

24 minutes ago, givejoshamosin said:

Furthermore, you literally have been given supercars which in my opinion is ridiculous. The only police force who I have seen have supers in the real world is Dubai, and as someone who used to live there I know they don’t actively use them, they’re more of a advertisement for the emirate and country.

Furthermore, those "supercars" not only have their own rules for their usage, they also spawn stock and are not comparable to some of the vehicles being driven by criminals in the server, especially with 'outside' help.

24 minutes ago, givejoshamosin said:

You may be held to certain standards, but when those standards are broken, rarely do I see repercussions towards the LSPD. 

Why would you? You aren't in the faction? If it's IC, it's usually handled internally and if officers need to get suspensions or discharges, they do.
If it's OOC, they have to abide the same rules as everyone else. 

I don't know anything about how your faction chooses to police it's members so I won't comment about it on a public forum.

24 minutes ago, givejoshamosin said:

In my opinion, LSPD should be charged for the weapons they take on duty, I’m not talking ridiculous prices, maybe 3k for a .50, 8k for a shotgun etc and they get charged this whenever they take it out the locker, and refunded it if they put it back in when ending duty. This adds some accountability to LSPD and maybe we will stop seeing so many hero cops trying to 1 v 3 criminals. I know charging LSPD members can also be seen as unrealistic, but it’s got to the point where they do not care if they die. 

If someone is breaking fear roleplay rules, then they should be reported, cop or not. I make $4k after tax my guy, if you think i'm going to buy my guns like it's a round of Counter Strike then you are very mistaken. Like I said, if a cop breaks fear roleplay rules, report them.

Since you are so big on accountability, I'll pay for my guns when criminals can get character killed for murdering a bunch of people. You know, since ya'll love realism so much. If you want to take it to that place, walk with me.

[SaltyPython]

22 minutes ago, givejoshamosin said:

Furthermore, you literally have been given supercars which in my opinion is ridiculous. The only police force who I have seen have supers in the real world is Dubai, and as someone who used to live there I know they don’t actively use them, they’re more of a advertisement for the emirate and country.

And in which country have you seen street gangsters driving around in super/sports cars/bikes? Many crim players unfortunately just do not stick to a good standard of RP either, and PD/SD simply responded by using super cars themselves. Now, you could argue this is a bit of a slippery slope - and you'd be right. A crim player who wants to portray a more realistic character will be inherently disadvantaged compared to other crim players/PD/SD due to the fact that super cars are so readily available for EVERYONE.

I personally think people just need to use more common sense, and also need to take roleplaying in general a bit more seriously. This is easier said than done, and most of the playerbase is already used to a server that ISN'T that realistic.

Either way, this is going kinda off-topic. I get what you mean OP, but the problem is that spike strips and PIT maneuvers are not viable at all. Not only are they laggy, they aren't very effective when a large percent of the playerbase has very very fast vehicles. Does it excuse non-RP actions from PD/SD? No. In my opinion, it also doesn't excuse what I believe to be non-RP actions from crims (the example of someone in pajamas on a hakuchou with an AK in the back was mentioned - being an extreme example)

[givejoshamosin]

30 minutes ago, Bala said:

I don't know about you but if my cruiser goes 220 I'm buzzing lmao.

How fast do those vehicles accelerate? Let's be honest, there's a reason why they're the vehicle of choice lol.

Those vehicles are at that price for a reason, the F620 and the Comet Retro are pretty much unattainable to most players, due to price and the quantity on the server. Drags could be argued the same, even though I will admit, they are slightly cheaper and easier to get then the two vehicles mentioned earlier. The Issi is also very pricey and only available via credits. 

Now, if you were a crim you would know that is near impossible to make money now. Almost everyone I know who cooks has recently been raided after they "fixed" drug tables. It's not even worth the risk of sitting afk for 5 hours to make money. 

Selling weapons - only beneficial for people with laptop access. 95% of crims don't have that.

Edited October 14, 2020 by givejoshamosin

[LikeASumBoodie]

4 minutes ago, Bala said:

Since you are so big on accountability, I'll pay for my guns when criminals can get character killed for murdering a bunch of people. You know, since ya'll love realism so much. If you want to take it to that place, walk with me.

Not sure if you wanna walk or run, but character kills aren't supported on this server the last time I checked. Also unfitting of an up and coming staff member to have such a cocky attitude on something that has been controversial and past its due date of discussion.

If you personally think that these situations only happen in a blue moon, have you even tried being a crim? This doesn't happen just once or twice a week, it happens every day. The fact that you really think half the people who post on this thread is just "shaking salt" to play with "little to no impunity" makes no sense. Why would you, as PD, get to play with little to no impunity? What makes you so different that PD shouldn't be abiding by these high risk / low reward standards that crims have set placed for them? 

The ignorance of thinking it's okay to shoot as PD in the middle of a "busy town" or "busy highway" and thinking it's not okay for crims to be doing the exact same is baffling. lmfao

[givejoshamosin]

39 minutes ago, Bala said:

We literally have helicopters that will top out normally about 230 and they have to fly at 700m+, at which point if someone lags, good luck playing guess which way they are going with the desync.

Furthermore, those "supercars" not only have their own rules for their usage, they also spawn stock and are not comparable to some of the vehicles being driven by criminals in the server, especially with 'outside' help.

The helicopter can quite comfortably keep up with the F620 even on the highway, I don't have an issue with the helicopter being used. It is 100x more realistic than the 811.

39 minutes ago, Bala said:

Furthermore, those "supercars" not only have their own rules for their usage, they also spawn stock and are not comparable to some of the vehicles being driven by criminals in the server, especially with 'outside' help.

The fact that supers are being used, which ruins the immersion aspect of being a crim, is quite frankly stupid. Sure supercars have their own rules for usage, that's why almost every day you can see the 811 sat across from Pauls farm set up for a speed trap. The 811 is a Porsche 918, worth roughly $1.2million, any argument for it being used by law enforcement is quite honestly not valid.

 

39 minutes ago, Bala said:

Why would you? You aren't in the faction? If it's IC, it's usually handled internally and if officers need to get suspensions or discharges, they do.
If it's OOC, they have to abide the same rules as everyone else. 

The fact that when this tazering issue started, LSPD were let off with it. I believe Copperhorse was the one who reported the first time it happened when he was tazed off his bike near Hungry Hunter. Since then it happens everyday. We as criminals are told we cannot issue demands in a vehicle, and causing bodily harm is a form of DM, this includes punching someone. Now Tazering I would argue has a lot more impact than a punch. The fact you guys just role up to people and taze them off their bike promotes extremely poor RP and is disappointing to see. 

 

39 minutes ago, Bala said:

If someone is breaking fear roleplay rules, then they should be reported, cop or not. I make $4k after tax my guy, if you think i'm going to buy my guns like it's a round of Counter Strike then you are very mistaken. Like I said, if a cop breaks fear roleplay rules, report them.

Since you are so big on accountability, I'll pay for my guns when criminals can get character killed for murdering a bunch of people. You know, since ya'll love realism so much. If you want to take it to that place, walk with me.

Character killed? Clearly an absurd point and a suggestion. Every criminal who has responded to this thread has offered feedback and suggestions, we haven't tried to make it toxic, yet you respond mocking my post by mimicking me saying "Furthermore", reading your responses clearly this is personal to you. We are here suggesting ways to improve the server for EVERYONE. Yet you fail to see the amount of work that goes into criminal RP.

 

39 minutes ago, SaltyPython said:

And in which country have you seen street gangsters driving around in super/sports cars/bikes? Many crim players unfortunately just do not stick to a good standard of RP either, and PD/SD simply responded by using super cars themselves. Now, you could argue this is a bit of a slippery slope - and you'd be right. A crim player who wants to portray a more realistic character will be inherently disadvantaged compared to other crim players/PD/SD due to the fact that super cars are so readily available for EVERYONE.

I'm not going to argue with your point, however I am going to provide what I think is a compromise. Maybe crims will get off drags and use more realistic vehicles when the police factions stop operating in a play to win manner. Right now the only way we can escape is bikes. I would be more than happy to cruise around with my friends in a four door but when I do this happens  https://streamable.com/sxnc4u. This has happened not once but twice from the same officer, after us committing not even one crime. I do not want to risk going to prison for hours, losing my guns that cost money that isn't given to us hourly. 

Not only that, we tried to use a Chino Custom, within 5 minutes of having it, an officer had dragged us out of it at bank and searched us and our car because "face concealment" is a reason to search, this landing myself and my friend in DOC, a heavy gone that was stored in the car.

Edited October 14, 2020 by givejoshamosin

[FrankieP]

+1

The vast majority of cops on this server have some weird superiority complex where they have to win every situation, usually through unrealistic means, and love throwing crim characters in jail for the maximum amount of time possible (charge stacking, slapping the book). You know it's bad when you see cop characters bragging via discord that they regularly put people away for 15 ooc hours, which is nothing short of toxic and should be addressed (although we all know it won't); I won't name names. Why is it that cops will engage in lethal forrce 90% of the time, yet there's nothing 'lethal' about it when PD/SD/MD simply powergame and stabilise your health with little to no rp, just so they can secure that arrested and throw you in a virtual jail cell for 10 hours of your life. Cops don't excercise tactics, common sense or realism on Eclipse, that's simply the fact of the matter. There's too much evidence and feedback from the community for the issue to be ignored or put down now.

Cops should definitely be held to much higher standards IC and OOC, and staff should begin issuing punishments for breaches rather that saying 'Its IC' or 'file and IA report'. So many crims get warnings, punishments and bans for incidents that would be brushed off as being IC if it was done by a cop.

#FreeTheBoys

[CapoSlash]

Heavy +1.


Recently just experienced a chase with PD/SD and one had an 811 out, while he had the 811 he thought it was a good idea to ram me with it thinking it wouldn't do any damage to the 811. Now, say that a criminal rammed with an 811, they would obviously get a non-rp yet if an SD/PD does it they'll come up with a reason saying it's not non rp because it's built to ram or some other reason they come up with.

 

Hope to see some changes in the future with LEO factions about non-rp.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by CapoSlash

[Cyrus Raven]

I appreciate that the OP was kind enough to post a few reference videos alongside others in this thread. It's always good to have examples when talking about a specific issue otherwise people don't have something tangible to discuss. 

First Video: 

Some things to clear up. As someone else mentioned, the vehicle being used here was done so as the vehicle being pursued was armoured. The .50 call insurgent was indeed used, but I think we can agree that such a vehicle being used isn't a regular occurrence. 

That being said, the overall commentary being made about shooting vehicles on a high-way that is RP'ly populated and doing so without exhausting other options is something we can definitely discuss.

Second Video: (continuation of previous segment)

In my personal opinion, the force used by Police can be justified in most cases. We more often that not give adequate warning via megaphone and what determines whether or not we shoot a fleeing vehicle is entirely dependent on the crimes committed and the way they are being committed. If someone is driving a high-speed vehicle on the wrong side of the road, in the city, through sidewalks, etc... going at an average speed of 180-200km/h then they have escalated their crimes from Felony Evasion to Felony Evasion and Felony Public Endangerment. What this means in terms of RP is that these suspects have a very high chance of hitting, injuring and/or killing someone given their negligent behaviour on the road, thus the decision sometimes PD takes to ''go for tires''. This is NOT the norm and only if certain conditions are met will the decision be made. 

In the case of the video in specific I have no idea what type of information the officers in question were acting on. What I can see is someone who was seen already driving recklessly in the city with a sports car, chasing someone. Then police initiated a pursuit on you and observed you at high-speeds in the city limit, driving recklessly and failing to maintain lane and then cutting across four lanes of travel and heading into the incorrect lane of travel for what would be a heavily populated high-way. You were given demands to stop or lethal force would be used at 1:00 in your video. You were then fired upon at 1:23 after being given the same demands two more times. In the video people from your own side claimed the frequency was compromised and SWAT was listening in. Like I said, I do not know what information the officers were acting on, but the video you posted shows you Felony Evading and Felony Public Endangerment, between letting you continue driving in such a way and striking other civilians on the highway while going on the wrong side or attempting to stop you by shooting at your vehicle I would say the latter is justified given that you put yourself in a position to be chased by PD when you chose to commit these felonies in city limits at high-speeds, which would realistically impact several civilians.  

Overall:

What is being presented here as evidence are situations that involve known gang members and SWAT/IB. I do not think that your average police officer is going around shooting vehicles with Micro's. Not only would we get instantly booted from PD, but it would also likely lead to OOC punishment if reported. We have protocols to follow and depending on the circumstances these protocols can lead to situations like the second video or the one bellow (where the insurgent and Kamacho box a vehicle in). This is NOT the NORM. As for the .50 Cal video, I would chalk it up as a one time thing, special circumstances for a special vehicle being stolen, I hope people aren't implying this is a common occurrence, although I will agree that probably shouldn't be shooting people with a .50 Cal on an RP'ly populated Highway.

[Cyrus Raven]

6 minutes ago, CapoSlash said:

Heavy +1.


Recently just experienced a chase with PD/SD and one had an 811 out, while he had the 811 he thought it was a good idea to ram me with it thinking it wouldn't do any damage to the 811. Now, say that a criminal rammed with an 811, they would obviously get a non-rp yet if an SD/PD does it they'll come up with a reason saying it's not non rp because it's built to ram or some other shit.

 

Hope to see some changes in the future with LEO factions about non-rp.

 

 

Just report it if that's the case ? If whatt you are saying is true and no desync was at play then that should be an easy Non-RP report. Why complain about this and try and paint the whole of PD as bad instead of reporting ONE person who is breaking a rule.

[Machete]

I've been in PD myself and I can confirm that its easy to get used to the play to win mentality. I myself went extremely far into that play to win mentality, Patrolled in the helicopter non stop and I can barely remember the chases that we lost cause there weren't that many. And this was still in the days when the max speed wasn't 240Km/h.  

 

Convoys are nonRP now but PD/SD drives with 20 behind you, over sidewalks and the incorrect lane of travel just to catch up. With the new robbery rules criminals need to pretend that the city is heavely populated but they still drive cars as in the car bumper parks. perfect example below

https://streamable.com/szawu7

 

There's a lot of ruleplay going on when it comes to roleplaying as a LEO in here. I've seen a lot of them breach the force continuum when they could have avoided shootouts.

Cops giving demands like criminals and then lighting up a parking lot as it can be seen in this video. Nothing is ever done to take in a suspect peacefully instead of shootout.

 https://streamable.com/3n017n

 

The biggest issue is that people see high roleplay standards as in writing out long and detailed /me's and /do's. thats where the LEO factions do good at but people need to know that its just a tiny little part of it, Make a character, give it a backstory, fake an accent, Act out a fictional character instead of yourself. I've barely ever seen anyones PD character write a character story and stick to it.

[CapoSlash]

1 minute ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Just report it if that's the case ? If whatt you are saying is true and no desync was at play then that should be an easy Non-RP report. Why complain about this and try and paint the whole of PD as bad instead of reporting ONE person who is breaking a rule.

I wouldn't report it whenever I lost nothing in that situation due to the fact I got away, it would just be pettiness so I decided to mention on here and talk about it a bit, and it always isn't one person, it is multiple people in PD who are always taking an advantage into ramming someone who is going at least 180+ KPH which puts both of our lifes in danger.

[mikebumbum]

3 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I appreciate that the OP was kind enough to post a few reference videos alongside others in this thread. It's always good to have examples when talking about a specific issue otherwise people don't have something tangible to discuss. 

First Video: 

Some things to clear up. As someone else mentioned, the vehicle being used here was done so as the vehicle being pursued was armoured. The .50 call insurgent was indeed used, but I think we can agree that such a vehicle being used isn't a regular occurrence. 

That being said, the overall commentary being made about shooting vehicles on a high-way that is RP'ly populated and doing so without exhausting other options is something we can definitely discuss.

Second Video: (continuation of previous segment)

In my personal opinion, the force used by Police can be justified in most cases. We more often that not give adequate warning via megaphone and what determines whether or not we shoot a fleeing vehicle is entirely dependent on the crimes committed and the way they are being committed. If someone is driving a high-speed vehicle on the wrong side of the road, in the city, through sidewalks, etc... going at an average speed of 180-200km/h then they have escalated their crimes from Felony Evasion to Felony Evasion and Felony Public Endangerment. What this means in terms of RP is that these suspects have a very high chance of hitting, injuring and/or killing someone given their negligent behaviour on the road, thus the decision sometimes PD takes to ''go for tires''. This is NOT the norm and only if certain conditions are met will the decision be made. 

In the case of the video in specific I have no idea what type of information the officers in question were acting on. What I can see is someone who was seen already driving recklessly in the city with a sports car, chasing someone. Then police initiated a pursuit on you and observed you at high-speeds in the city limit, driving recklessly and failing to maintain lane and then cutting across four lanes of travel and heading into the incorrect lane of travel for what would be a heavily populated high-way. You were given demands to stop or lethal force would be used at 1:00 in your video. You were then fired upon at 1:23 after being given the same demands two more times. In the video people from your own side claimed the frequency was compromised and SWAT was listening in. Like I said, I do not know what information the officers were acting on, but the video you posted shows you Felony Evading and Felony Public Endangerment, between letting you continue driving in such a way and striking other civilians on the highway while going on the wrong side or attempting to stop you by shooting at your vehicle I would say the latter is justified given that you put yourself in a position to be chased by PD when you chose to commit these felonies in city limits at high-speeds, which would realistically impact several civilians.  

Overall:

What is being presented here as evidence are situations that involve known gang members and SWAT/IB. I do not think that your average police officer is going around shooting vehicles with Micro's. Not only would we get instantly booted from PD, but it would also likely lead to OOC punishment if reported. We have protocols to follow and depending on the circumstances these protocols can lead to situations like the second video or the one bellow (where the insurgent and Kamacho box a vehicle in). This is NOT the NORM. As for the .50 Cal video, I would chalk it up as a one time thing, special circumstances for a special vehicle being stolen, I hope people aren't implying this is a common occurrence, although I will agree that probably shouldn't be shooting people with a .50 Cal on an RP'ly populated Highway.

Please find me one video in real life where someone who PD is chasing drives on the wrong side of the highway and gets sprayed down mid driving the only time you will see PD shoot in a pursuit is when the person stops or crashes and goes to use force against the police stop trying to justify this shit like the other half of the server who isnt PD is showing their concerns and every cop who came in here either made a joke about the discussion or respond with laughing emotes. in real life you will never see a pursuit end with a truck with a machine gun on it shooting the car out. It doesnt matter if its a 1 time thing it should never be a thing. Thats like arguing i should be able to go to PD and kill a cop i really dont like because its a 1 time thing and i have a reason for it.

It again comes down to the feeling of the need to HAVE to catch some one under whatever means necessary which should just be an unacceptable mentality. Sometimes i really want to catch a criminal enemy if i cant just spray them out of their car for no reason you shouldn't be able to either we need to stop with the rules only applying to some people but others can do as they please.