Law Enforcement Discussion

[Jleoni]

53 minutes ago, Tezhl said:

The only time shooting is made available is when others begin it. Just as it would be in the real world. Law Enforcement are reactive meaning they can only engage in response to situation; versus all others who are the catalyst (meaning they begin the reactions). 

I mean, crims also can't shoot unless they get DM rights...

[Donovan]

@Kyle White Raven The reason why it is player money and not government, its because to make people understand the value of THEIR inventory, if it was payed by government how would 1 individual feel responsible for his vehicle or weapons when again he wouldn't lose anything by doing it? Some things might not have a " reasoning " icly but make more sense oocly for the sake of gameplay improvement

[Serthon]

9 minutes ago, Donovan said:

@Kyle White Raven The reason why it is player money and not government, its because to make people understand the value of THEIR inventory, if it was payed by government how would 1 individual feel responsible for his vehicle or weapons when again he wouldn't lose anything by doing it? Some things might not have a " reasoning " icly but make more sense oocly for the sake of gameplay improvement

I'm sure if it would be from the faction's treasury the player would value it as well, because if people trash their faction vehicles then our whole budget would be affected and salary cuts could happen etc.

[Riderz]

1 hour ago, Donovan said:

@Kyle White Raven The reason why it is player money and not government, its because to make people understand the value of THEIR inventory, if it was payed by government how would 1 individual feel responsible for his vehicle or weapons when again he wouldn't lose anything by doing it? Some things might not have a " reasoning " icly but make more sense oocly for the sake of gameplay improvement

In regrades to that, what police force in the real world requires officers/individuals employed pay for their own gear? Only time I've ever heard of that is in the case of 17th FEB (February 17th Martyrs Brigade) which would be a very far third world country. To additionally note; if criminals do not value their items such as going against a well equipped Law Enforcement Agency, what affect would this have vice versa?  

Now we you could look at the Police Budget paying for it but now one main factor must be looked at such as the disproportionate violence level in the city. Thus, leading these being the only solutions to fund against the constant engagements over small incidents are as followed: Increase fine amounts, Civil Forfeiture (Meaning anything used in the commission of a crime can be seized and resold at government auction (Example: Felony evade in a vehicle, now it's Government property)), Increase tax rates, Establish that money earned in the prison mines is government cash and not but least Freeze/Seize bank accounts until debt is paid. 

Edited July 5, 2020 by Tezhl

[Copperhorse]

8 hours ago, Tezhl said:

The only time shooting is made available is when others begin it. Just as it would be in the real world. Law Enforcement are reactive meaning they can only engage in response to situation; versus all others who are the catalyst (meaning they begin the reactions). 

This is wrong. I've had Law Enforcement open fire without a single shot being fired from our side many times.

[Illmohim]

FAAAAAAAAT +1.
PD&SD have too many good things which are obviously non rp also, they have unlimited guns? make a budget and spend your money and dont give them every gun every second free and our prison times dont mattar its just that you need to try to outrun cop cars that have been boosted way too much.

[Ezrya]

1 hour ago, Tezhl said:

In regrades to that, what police force in the real world requires officers/individuals employed pay for their own gear?

In what world do cops have guns and equipment that magically can't be taken from them. The whole point of the suggestion is to make cops value their lives more and have some consequences for their actions rather than just die, wake up at pillbox, grab another cruiser and carbine and jump back on patrol. 

 

9 hours ago, Tezhl said:

The only time shooting is made available is when others begin it. Just as it would be in the real world. Law Enforcement are reactive meaning they can only engage in response to situation; versus all others who are the catalyst (meaning they begin the reactions). 

Doubt 

[Illmohim]

2 minutes ago, Ezrya said:

In what world do cops have guns and equipment that magically can't be taken from them. The whole point of the suggestion is to make cops value their lives more and have some consequences for their actions rather than just die, wake up at pillbox, grab another cruiser and carbine and jump back on patrol. 

 

Doubt 

these are all facts tbh 

[PurplePlant]

20 minutes ago, Ezrya said:

In what world do cops have guns and equipment that magically can't be taken from them. The whole point of the suggestion is to make cops value their lives more and have some consequences for their actions rather than just die, wake up at pillbox, grab another cruiser and carbine and jump back on patrol. 

 

Doubt 

This whole thread has gone into a spiral. Maybe there should be LESS RP that involves shooting at cops?

[Illmohim]

Just now, PurplePlant said:

This whole thread has gone into a spiral. Maybe there should be LESS RP that involves shooting at cops?

maybe cops should'nt be too OP? unrealistic ?

[Jleoni]

25 minutes ago, Illmohim said:

these are all facts tbh 

And if the PD shoots first?
/b make an IA report (that goes nowhere)

 

 

[PurplePlant]

9 minutes ago, Illmohim said:

maybe cops should'nt be too OP? unrealistic ?

Unrealistic yes, because they can only act if you do. That being said, if they act first report them for breaking force continuum. Otherwise, criminals need to be aware that they are the underdog. That's the whole point criminals get money quick and easy at the risk of being caught. The other point is there are several ways to RP and shooting should be LAST. Also, RP should be about making situations as fun as possible NOT about always about winning the RP.

Edited July 5, 2020 by PurplePlant

[Ezrya]

32 minutes ago, PurplePlant said:

This whole thread has gone into a spiral. Maybe there should be LESS RP that involves shooting at cops?

There already is less shootouts with PD/SD compared to a year ago. Most official gangs have put a lot of procedures into place to reduce PD/SD shootouts like requiring permission from a higherup and a valid reason to engage in a shootout with law enforcement just as one example. At some point though criminals and cops will always come to a point where they interact with each other and sometimes it just so happens to turn into a shootout. It's just how things are.

[Gekko]

People are treating this just that simple nerf to PD will fix this... no... 

This is 2 communities PD and Crims that are willing to tear each others throat while in fact they should be working hand in hand to have fun... Just cuz you will nerf PD nothing will change in fact i think PD should have stronger and more clearer rules how to handle situations, ramming cars driving on 200km/h is not a good choice, shooting people just cuz they run also. IA is another topic that should have trusted members in it from outside PD, not related to PD nor Crims and be objective with it since not IA belongs to PD and PD is a family, keeping in mind only low tier cops will get punished for some stuff that higher ups wont.... Chases causes more havoc in the city than criminals. I mean police standarts should be way higher in all fields.

Tho crims most of the time pushes boundries or plays dirty, abuses bugs and so on... Believe me I have seen it many times, not saying all people does that but I understand would i take my risk to abuse something for 6 hours jail time and be salty? I think everyone would do that.

Main problem is that... everyone on this server has a responsibility to create fun RP for other party and have fun in RP situations, but most of the times if you want to have fun in it you will just get abused by PD/Crims.
 

[Jleoni]

+1 to separating IA from PD

+1 to making PD feel some sort of economic pressure from lost resources (either on individual level or as a whole)

Edited July 5, 2020 by Jleoni

[MrSilky]

PD needs to be "OP" to be at all realistic as gangs are also seemingly "OP"

Focus on roleplay, not winning.

I do agree to PD's budget taking a hit for more items though (like armour, weapons and ammo).

[Percival]

On 6/27/2020 at 9:07 PM, ClankH said:

Lets both be honest here, as someone that experiences both sides, and as someone that is really close friends OOCly with people that are dedicated crims on the server. Intricate planning does NOT happen. Lets take YOUR gang Dojin-Kai for example. You guys hit banks all the time, whenever possible. Always the same thing. If its pink cage bank? You stack people on roofs, get people inside and then pray to god that cops drop fast enough. Every single time I have been to a bank robbery on my PD character the past week or so, its been with Dojin-Kai alone or with Dokin-Kai being backed up by MurdaBlock. You guys literally MAKE IT TOO EASY to stop the bank. All it turns out to be is a shootout where PD will win due to numbers AND ACTUAL tactics. NOBODY is above the rules, Whenever I have interacted with Dojin en-masse, they follow the pursuit line in an attempt to help their friends, which end up making the police have to act more aggressive by pitting and ramming the suspect vehicle. There was also an instance where Dojin tried to do the classic Zeta technique of blocking the sewer entrance with a contender instead of a bigger car which ended with our kamacho being able to ram through the contender and get both the blocker and the evader. You guys literally set yourselves up for failure when it comes to evading the police and then question WHY you cannot win. Theres been plenty of times where cops have been absolutely massacred by gangs due to ACTUAL tactics being used by them.

Factions already suffer a hit to their budget, Cruisers being destroyed, stolen etc. That isnt free. Even taking the GPS out of your faction vehicle will hit the vault budget. 

 

I can assure you as a member of staff that NOBODY is above the rules. So your point there is invalid in general. Also before you make uneducated assumptions about the ramming capabilities of a "shitty queen vic cruiser". Police issue crown victorias have been used to take down vehicles almost twice their size. They're made to get beat up, TWIN TURBOCHARGED V8 under the hood as well as massive durability. Even newer police vehicles such as the Taurus and Charge (police3 and police2) have insane engines and insane damage resistance. A stock crown victoria weights almost as much as a stock ford f150 pickup truck. 

 

 

The taurus interceptor (police3) caps at 190 and will hit 220 if you're lucky on bumps. Will FLIP if you hit the TINIEST rock. CANNOT OFFROAD WITHOUT LOSING 60% of its speed.

The crown victoria (police) has the highest TOP SPEED of the 3 at 220-230 on a highway with 0 bumps but accelerates like a snail and turns like a bus.

The dodge charger/buffalo (police2) has the fastest ACCELERATION of the 3 but caps out at 170 it might hit 180 if you're LUCKY. It is also heavier than a Schafter V12 so maneuverability is out of the question.

Now lets look at the other side and take a quick peek at the current meta for criminal vehicles.

Meanwhile a Sultan Classic can hit 240 in the city due to bumps, accelerates faster than an elegy retro and is more maneuverable than the three cop cars. 

An elegy retro (200k car). Can abuse quick turns, accelerates insanely quick, and is light, small and nimble enough to make it through the sewers with ease.

A novak can hit 240, can hold 4 armed goons and can go offroad without losing much speed.

A kamacho can go off-road with 0 speed loss, can ram cruiser to infinity and beyond, can literally step on cruisers.

Comet Retro can skyrocket to 240 on a straight in seconds.

Rapid GT can skyrocket to 240 on a straight in seconds.

811 can skyrocket to 240 in seconds.

Hakuchou drags can offroad, turn into tiny alleys, escape in tiny cracks and are barely visible from helicopters.

As someone that has been constantly been scrutinized for ANY bit of corruption in PD by command and internal affairs, I can assure you that corruption and malpractice are investigated with the highest possible level of prejudice. We have ALL of our admin logs checked randomly. Whether its dropping a gun somewhere, storing a pistol somewhere, giving a criminal special treatment. EVERYTHING is looked at by administration, text logs, storage logs, phone logs, etc. I can assure you that the tiny things you complain about when it comes to 'corruption' is just a criminal being uneducated. Protocol is DRILLED into our heads ICLY AND OOCLY. I have been on both sides of the IA crosshair and I can assure you that they do their job properly and any form of corruption is combated. Unprofessional-ism is not tolerated. You have to realize that just because things dont go your way does not mean its corruption. 

Ah yes because the bloods and crips, Lucky Luciano, Salvatore Maranzano, Latin Kings, etc. Go/Went around in color coded vehicles chasing criminals around the streets in huge convoys, proudly declaring to the police that they are part of an illegal organization!

 

See in BOLD

As someone who has one of the more problematic reputations in PD and has gotten in trouble with LSPD Leadership and Supervisors more times than one can count (NEVER for corrupt acts, and only for misconduct of internal policies) I can concur with Clank on that. 

People that cry "Corruption" are only but uneducated 100% of the time in my experience. I suggest anyone who cries "corruption" to educate themselves, go read the penal code, and check up on the charges. And if they do find "corrupt" or wrongful doing, then submit an IA Complaint.

When you apply/join PD you are like my fellow members have mentioned, SCRUTINIZED for every LITTLE MISTAKE / FLAW YOU MAKE both IC and OOC. 

Say something wrong, you are written up. Park the car wrongly, you're written up or yelled at. Take out an item you were not supposed to? Written up. Hit a car during a pursuit? Written up. Fail to show up to a meeting? Written up. ((These are only but examples, and may be exaggerated, however are per case by case basis. Still its to show that management in PD is very strict, and there are checks and balances in place. Both IC and OOC. ))

The ONLY reason PD members see little to no admin cases or logs is due to the HIGHLY STRICT internal management and system that has been established over time to ensure PD members uphold a higher standard in the server. There have been members who break server rules and get punished for them OOCly and ICly. 

There's even AN OOC RULE AGAINST CORRUPTION

It may look like PD has more perks than criminals, but its balanced in the form of an extremely bureaucratic and Conservative management, responsibility, professionalism, maturity.

I'd like to see a criminal organization with a huge handbook like PD/SD/DOC does. Then enforce those policies onto their members, people who are probably not used to being bosses and ordered around or criticized... there's criminals who cry parking ticket or mask despite being asked politely with courtesy and professionalism.

 

Financial: As far as budgetary and finance goes. This was something I brought up to leadership couple years ago, when PD was still newly established. I see now that budget is getting more realistically managed by PD. And I do agree, for every item/property, there needs to be a cost... I mean EVERYTHING. Personnel, Vehicles, Real Estate, Tools (i.e. weapons, etc.), Paychecks etc.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Percival

[Jleoni]

13 minutes ago, Percival said:

There's even AN OOC RULE AGAINST CORRUPTION

Where is it?

Corruption is ICly enforeced only afaik, mostly through their black-hole of an IA portal on the IC gov website

[MrSilky]

2 minutes ago, Jleoni said:

Where is it?

Corruption is ICly enforeced only afaik, mostly through their black-hole of an IA portal on the IC gov website

No, it is OOCly enforced and that is all that needs to be publicly known.

[Gekko]

25 minutes ago, Jleoni said:

Where is it?

Corruption is ICly enforeced only afaik, mostly through their black-hole of an IA portal on the IC gov website

It is oocly, I got thrown out of PD just cuz of rewarding random people with good rp by not puting all charges, lets say people actually handing themselves while robbing a store. I was not even caught of doing it, I was just saying in the forums that I did and that was it bye bye PD.  

PD has really loads of rules that you need to obey, but I know how  messy it is, lets say pursuits, shootouts, cops not valuating hostage life and so on. But I know the other side of criminals as well, trying to abuse everything and balancing on the line of crossing the rules.

The problem on this server that people wants actually to win rather than have fun, money is ultimate goal in here not the experience of rp.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Gekko

[PurplePlant]

26 minutes ago, Gekko said:

It is oocly, I got thrown out of PD just cuz of rewarding random people with good rp by not puting all charges, lets say people actually handing themselves while robbing a store. I was not even caught of doing it, I was just saying in the forums that I did and that was it bye bye PD.  

PD has really loads of rules that you need to obey, but I know how  messy it is, lets say pursuits, shootouts, cops not valuating hostage life and so on. But I know the other side of criminals as well, trying to abuse everything and balancing on the line of crossing the rules.

The problem on this server that people wants actually to win rather than have fun, money is ultimate goal in here not the experience of rp.

Exactly. I think that's the sad part that money drives people to break rules or shoot cops in a situation where they would probably IRL serve the time rather than adding more time by forcing the cops to add those charges.

[ImYanYan]

On 6/27/2020 at 8:07 PM, ClankH said:

Lets both be honest here, as someone that experiences both sides, and as someone that is really close friends OOCly with people that are dedicated crims on the server. Intricate planning does NOT happen. Lets take YOUR gang Dojin-Kai for example. You guys hit banks all the time, whenever possible. Always the same thing. If its pink cage bank? You stack people on roofs, get people inside and then pray to god that cops drop fast enough. Every single time I have been to a bank robbery on my PD character the past week or so, its been with Dojin-Kai alone or with Dokin-Kai being backed up by MurdaBlock. You guys literally MAKE IT TOO EASY to stop the bank. All it turns out to be is a shootout where PD will win due to numbers AND ACTUAL tactics. NOBODY is above the rules, Whenever I have interacted with Dojin en-masse, they follow the pursuit line in an attempt to help their friends, which end up making the police have to act more aggressive by pitting and ramming the suspect vehicle. There was also an instance where Dojin tried to do the classic Zeta technique of blocking the sewer entrance with a contender instead of a bigger car which ended with our kamacho being able to ram through the contender and get both the blocker and the evader. You guys literally set yourselves up for failure when it comes to evading the police and then question WHY you cannot win. Theres been plenty of times where cops have been absolutely massacred by gangs due to ACTUAL tactics being used by them.

Factions already suffer a hit to their budget, Cruisers being destroyed, stolen etc. That isnt free. Even taking the GPS out of your faction vehicle will hit the vault budget. 

 

 

I want to hear from the gang members or leaders if they actually plan their shit. Do you guys just rob banks and if the cops come you shoot them, or do yall plan it out. Because from what I have read, it seems like yall just rob the bank and play TDM until it's over, when there are lots of things that gangs could do to play it more smart. Especially the big ones that have a lot of members in them

[Percival]

59 minutes ago, cmaeron_abduljabar said:

I want to hear from the gang members or leaders if they actually plan their shit. Do you guys just rob banks and if the cops come you shoot them, or do yall plan it out. Because from what I have read, it seems like yall just rob the bank and play TDM until it's over, when there are lots of things that gangs could do to play it more smart. Especially the big ones that have a lot of members in them

Exactly, and its the same for both sides PD and Criminals. Play it smart, and you'll be okay. Don't and be f**ked. It's not the game, but the playa

[Cyrus Raven]

2 minutes ago, Percival said:

Exactly, and its the same for both sides PD and Criminals. Play it smart, and you'll be okay. Don't and be f**ked. It's not the game, but the playa

I think what most crims in this thread are trying to point out is that us as PD don't really care if we die or  not given that we don't lose much, meaning that we are more prone to taking risky 1vsX moves against gang members. 

 

For the most part, I think this could be corrected by adding a FearRP clause to include specific law enforcement actions, but at the same time I haven't experienced this to a degree that would warrant this. 

 

I think others have mentioned ways that law enforcement as a whole can improve when it comes to introducing penalties for dying, but we are there as a force to keep order on the server and to rarely be defeated, the goal of criminals should be to evade and out smart, instead of confront and shoot. In a sense you guys should have to "play smarter" because you're the underdog. As an example I would point to a guerilla group part of a revolutionary force VS a well armed and equipped government force. The only way the revolutionaries will win is if they out smart their enemies and pick their battles wisely, focusing on guerrilla tactics. 

[Percival]

31 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I think what most crims in this thread are trying to point out is that us as PD don't really care if we die or  not given that we don't lose much, meaning that we are more prone to taking risky 1vsX moves against gang members. 

 

For the most part, I think this could be corrected by adding a FearRP clause to include specific law enforcement actions, but at the same time I haven't experienced this to a degree that would warrant this. 

 

I think others have mentioned ways that law enforcement as a whole can improve when it comes to introducing penalties for dying, but we are there as a force to keep order on the server and to rarely be defeated, the goal of criminals should be to evade and out smart, instead of confront and shoot. In a sense you guys should have to "play smarter" because you're the underdog. As an example I would point to a guerilla group part of a revolutionary force VS a well armed and equipped government force. The only way the revolutionaries will win is if they out smart their enemies and pick their battles wisely, focusing on guerrilla tactics. 

I can assure you FearRP and Valuing life is enforced in PD inside and outside.