Law Enforcement Discussion

[Machete]

So I've played the PD side for around 300K experience without VIP. and now changed to crim with around 70K XP. There are 3 fixes that would greatly improve this server in terms of balancing;

 

1. Limit the crown vic to 205, maybe even 210 so that its still a little faster then sports cars but more balanced. The more people that think they can felony evade will provide more chases, leading up to more enjoyable RP scenarios.

 

 2. -PD / SD faction cap: Recently criminal factions were reduced to 40, this really sucked for people that don't play this game non stop. so the part time criminals kinda stopped playing because of this. PD/SD currently has an unlimited faction cap, with diffrent NLR rules so they can just respawn and be on the way to fuck you up again. Personally I think the rules should be the same for everyone.

 There are so many people in PD/SD now that there is barely anything to do (reason I left). And because of this the LEO's are trying ANYTHING to be able to arrest you, like asking you out of the car over a speeding ticket. This makes me just drive my paragon and drag so that I can easely lose them. While I was in PD i've heard people complain about shootouts during wars, they'd arrive late onto it and all they can do is charge stack you and play coroner as it gives no RP and those people are the same ones that pass 10-15s on low ranking officers so that they wouldn't have to RP.  Almost every cop interaction leads you up to a minimum of 2Hours in jail + ridiculous fines, and then people wonder why they don't enjoy the RP.

Ever since I went over to the crim side, I sometimes feel like i'm playing in a nazi occupated city. A cop can just ask you to leave for no reason and proceed to arrest you if you don't comply, which is beyond ridiculous + the IA system is extremely flawed, its the same IRL but yeah would be nice it got fixed. The PD cars being that fast just forces people to drive the drag which pisses off every LEO as you can't really do anything about it. If the cost of going to jail wouldnt be this insane then perhaps crims would enjoy driving less OP cars and enjoy the RP a bit more.

 

3. Limited the prison sentence to a maximum of 2.5 hours and a maximum fine of 25K. I've seen a guy get charged for 4 accessory to murders because he was seeing with a gun next to a shootout. There is no way of knowing if the officer bodycam RP with /time was even made to put charges on the person. This was never even checked during my time in PD except for cases. 

 

If the economy wasn't this fucked people would enjoy the RP over the Win-RP as the consequences are ridiculous.

 

[WindEZ]

Actualy the IA system IRL in 7/9 countries that i know is not like Ecrp

And there are examples of that plenty of them , but as mentioned before i cant even be asked we just talking and talking with no outcome . We say thanks to the small bits we get and big ones till they get nerfed like banks .

Everything else just get used to it stop wasting your energy 

[Itzsonzy]

2 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I think that the vast majority of the people in the thread missed a very key difference between law enforcement and criminals. Since @Itzsonzy claims they were a member of PD, I don't see how they didn't factor it in it at all.

Law enforcement, for the most part, does not get to do whatever they want. They are bound by rules so long that they're called manuals.

That is the key difference, and why it makes every single argument like "why do LSPD get free guns and not crims" absolutely flawed. 

Let's take for example Officer John Doe. He gets a free gun, and a pretty good car. It's not the best by far. Anyone that's tried to chase a Hakuchou Drag or a Rapid GT will know that while the car is pretty good, it's not overpowered. 

He's out on patrol, and he sees someone robbing a store. He does not get a choice on what he wants to do. Based on IC rules, he has to act. He has to get involved. Backup is called, and other officers have to respond and help.

Law enforcement, for the most part, is a reactive faction. They react to what criminals do, and there is very little freedom for the average officer. 

If you take for example the average criminal John Doe. He has to buy a pistol for 8k. But he can use that pistol to do literally anything he wants. He wants to rob a bank? He can try. He wants to rob another person? He can do so. 

Anyone that doesn't understand this basic difference, should take a couple of minutes, and consider just how a cop gets to use those free items, and how much freedom they have with their own purchased items.

These points literally hold no relevance to the point i'm trying to push. Yes, legal and crim has fundamental differences and one of the huge downsides of being an LEO is a lack of freedom to do whatever you want. BUT this post is entirely about balance changes, so i'm talking combat situations and shootouts. During shootouts, yes, PD have unlimited guns, ammo and armor. Sure, a criminal can choose what they would like to do but nearly every interaction you have listed will involve LEOs at some point, meaning that the freedom is tied to both ends of the stick in that sense.

Not to mention about freedom, would you like to have more freedom to choose what you would like to do on shift as an LEO, but every single time you clock off you gotta spend 2-4 hours in prison? I doubt it.

[Cyrus Raven]

Ok, this response is a culmination of going through most replies that I think are worth mentioning, because there is a lot of stuff being said which either does not make sense or attempts to push a server to an even deeper state of ''cops and robbers'', which is NOT the goal of the server.
 

• @Copperhorse ''But the fact that PD / SD loses literally nothing when they do something stupid or just get overpowered is wack. They need an economy just like the rest of the server.''

Police shouldn't lose anything, they are a government agency, every police force in the world provides gear and vehicles to police, some choose to spend their own money for some better body armor or a few extras, but generally they are government provided because it is a government agency, just like DCC workers don't pay for their own taxis and mechanics don't pay for their own parts or tow truck.

HOWEVER, you are right, that there should be more of a consequence to death in PD, I think the NLR already does this to some extent.

NLR  already prevents PD from coming back and being involved in the situation that got you killed OR any others that stemmed from that. (AKA: A bank robbery happens where 80% of police die, then that robbery turns into a pursuit up into Paleto, the cops that died in the bank robbery can NOT go and help out in that situation). But, maybe there should be more consequences ? I'm open to hearing suggestion on this front, but I don't think that talking about how police don't lose weapons is a pragmatic avenue to explore, because not only is it not realistic, it's also how most RP servers with PD operate, including old school SAMP servers. (FYI, I bring this last point as a way to show that this way probably isn't inherently flawed, but I recognise just because most servers do something doesn't make it automatically right).
 

• @FrankieP 
• Why should cops fear for their lives, their weapons, their vehicles or their colleagues when they can simply /pw to get unlimited weapons and /fspawn to get a fresh cruiser?

Addressed above, cops IRL don't go on-duty thinking ''I guess I can afford to let all my colleagues die and even myself because the government pays for my gun and car''... 

• If guns were lootable, then maybe cops would put more thought into the items they take out of the armoury for basic patrols, as well as actually being tactical about the situations they choose to intervene in, instead of simply bumrushing 20 criminals with like 2 officers, knowing full well that neither them nor the department will take any hit to its resources or (non-existant) budget. The way that guns aren't lootable from cops seems like an OOC restriction on something that makes a lot of sense IC. If cops don't want their carbines taken, then maybe they should be more cautious with their approach to law enforcement.

This is OOC to prevent people from targeting cops for their weapons. I'm not against giving it a try, maybe having a month to test the waters out to see if it works, but if an IC response comes about it like allowing lower ranks access to ARs to combat the increase in potential weapons in criminal's hands then don't complain. To my knowledge it isn't common to see cops rambo into a scene alone, it happens because I've seen videos of it, but I don't think it is common.

• Why do we pay taxes if that money isn't actually used IC? Seems pointless to me, although it would make a lot more sense if that money went towards the police budget. PD could then have resource managers that are in charge of ordering weaponry and vehicles; with heavier equipment requiring High Command approval to be taking out of the armoury.

Money from taxes and tickets are, to my knowledge, used. It is used to fund most government agencies. 

• Additionally, I believe that PD needs to start acting in a more realistic manner, because currently they behave however they want, and then when you call them out on it, they simply say '/b thats IC' or '/b file an IA report'. There's nothing fair oocly and icly about cops ramming you and then having the nerve to arrest you for it, or for them to randomly stop you in the middle of the street to ask if you have a license for the gun on your back.

This might upset you, but it is IC. A cop could literally go up to you and arrest you for no reason and it would be IC, as such you have resources available to you to appeal this, getting that person fired and your charges reversed. By the way, the example given is EXTREME, to even do anything of the sorts you would be need OOC corruption permissions and these permissions are for those with high-RP, not for some cop to walk up to someone and arrest them randomly, I just used it to point out that most actions that by police are usually IC. 

However, I do agree with you there should be a better system, namely the Justice System that I believe Osborn is building. Until then we have to hang in there a bit, but I hope you believe me when I say that most cops take their time to figure out if you were involved in a situation or not before slapping charges on you, I'm sure there are situations where someone is wrongfully charged, but just like OOC reports these need to be reported IC'ly/OOC'ly to IA, otherwise nothing will change. 

As for the weapon on people's back. Unless you are a known criminal or you are actively committing a crime (wearing a mask, etc...), cops will not just stop you for the weapon, but it is important to note that they CAN do it if they want. The firearms license everyone applies and agrees to it's terms IC'ly states that they have to comply with law enforcement officers. If you are someone without a license and a known criminal and you walk around with a .50 on your back then that is on you for being stupid, do not blame cops for recognising you and asking for your gun license, play smarter.

• As for the times we have to spend in DOC, I don't believe the solution is to lower the times, but rather there should be more to actually do in prison rather than standing there for hours watching netflix or getting punched by new players

I agree, I think the problem here is from two fronts. One, there isn't enough to do in DOC, scriptly and RP'ly speaking. Two, the reason for that is probably cause most people who end up in DOC don't give a fuck about RP'ing in there, but focus on getting out. There needs to be a mentality change from people getting put in (although I've seen good RP from Prisoners before, Lucy is one of those who seems to make an effort and does not mind going to prison), as well as more stuff to do and RP encouragement from DOC.

• Another thing is the way in which cops will take everything off your person and out of your car, simply to despawn it in the back of their cruiser. This is absolutely unnecessary and enforces the winning mentality that so many cops have on Eclipse. I know that cops don't have to spare a penny for their equipment, but the rest of us do, so that must be taken in consideration.

Give us script support to put people's stuff in evidence, or making it so any item on you during your sentence is unusable. We already spend a lot of our time doing paperwork and responding to calls, it is unreasonable to expect us to catalogue and keep evidence stored for every person that comes by our jail cells, especially considering we don't have any designated people to keep track of this. Good news is I hear DOC has gotten a lot better at doing this and they have started to actively store and give back prisoners items. I will +1 any script system that allows us to do this easily as I agree you guys should be able to get your stuff back.

• PD vehicles are currently overpowered. How is it realistic that a shitty Queen Vic can do 240 on a highway, traverse every terrain, whilst A 20mil+ supercar cannot? This could be solvable by removing the 240kmh speed limit, or lowering the speed of PD vehicles. This is similar to my suggestion about the PD budget, but also why does it make sense that cops are regularly seen driving around on drag bikes and in supercars? Realistically, a police budget would not stretch that far, nor would commercial vehicles like those every be approved for use by Law Enforcement

I can not comment for SD, but PD does NOT actively deploy drags, we have a normal hakuchou, that is it, if a member of high-command wishes to deploy a personal drag they can, but again, it very rarely happens and let's not forget WHY we have to deploy them in the first place. People here love to discuss ''Oh PD has fast vehicles, oh they deploy supers, oh they use drags'', yeah but WHY do we use these ? You think we just do it cause we feel like driving a drag or a super ? No, it is REQUESTED as an IC tactic to counter criminals who are using these same vehicles, that's the reason. The question I leave you with is, in a city where sports cars, supers and sports bikes amongst criminals are common, why wouldn't the police force in that city get specialised vehicles to combat that ? Dubai gets Police Lamborghinis and Bugattis not only because they are rich as fuck,  but because most of the cars they are enforcing against are super cars and sports cars. Same applies in Eclipse, we use these vehicles ONLY when needed and we do it because of how often they are used by criminals.

 

• @Itzsonzy ''Come rob some banks with us or get the same response from speeding and evading, we'll see how easy it is to avoid. I think lots of points are easier to serve than say, i welcome the majority of people commenting who have not had any recent/relevant criminal experience to log in and enjoy. You will start upvoting the second you loose 40k and 2 hours of your time because someone saw you at the bank with a mask on.''
  
  ''Want to fight PD? Alright. Each of you put 30+k worth of guns on the line, 6 hours OOC in prison time, with the reward for actually winning and outplaying being a  ''

Banks aren't suppose to be easy to rob... If you go into a situation like a bank robbery expecting to be let go easily then you're playing your criminal character the wrong way, same applies with fighting PD. This IS NOT  a cops and robbers server. You can choose to fight PD, but don't get angry at us when we clap back at you, as a criminal organisation the last thing you should be doing is getting into gun fights with PD unless absolutely needed. 

As an example I will use a clip which you said you were gonna report me for, but I found that it actually shows the crim mentality pretty well. (Not all criminals, specifically those with more experience, but sadly we deal with more inexperienced criminals)

Context: We had a convoy with a few known gang members in it (don't remember who exactly) and we noticed a blue hellfire and a black feltzer following from behind. At the time we had no real reason to suspect them of doing anything, so we just decided to make a moving blockade, two cruisers on both lanes of travel at the same speed both with lights AND sirens, indicating to any vehicles they should slow down and maintain speed. (AKA: Yield to an emergency vehicle).  Soon after we entered the bridge heading towards DOC we noticed the two vehicles got closer and eventually the black feltzer broke formation and attempted to drive past us, ramming the cruiser on the left. After getting in front of it, still with might lights AND sirens ON, they decided to try and pass me, heading towards the convoy, they got PITed and arrested.

I will spare the OP of this thread the embarrassment that followed, berating every officer including myself around for ''ramming for no reason'' in a way which felt borderline OOC. The point of showing this is to demonstrate that criminals have a choice of when to act and when to let things go, using your brain when you are less well equipped then a government law enforcement agency is key.

https://streamable.com/12hqn5

 

• @James Sakamoto''Show me a car shop where people can now Order and  buy super cars and drag bikes please as you are making out that they are easily obtain vehicles  drag bike goes for around 1.4 million for a crim to buy,  how much isit for pd ? super cars the cheapest iv seen is 19million, how mucsh isit for pd to spawn ?''

My critique is aimed at the general access criminals have to these vehicles, they don't need to be supers. In fact, there are plenty of sports cars that go faster then most super cars. MY POINT IS, that criminals having access to these vehicles that not only are expensive, but also very fast (regardless if they are a super or not) means that we as law enforcement have to REACT to you having said vehicles by having some of our own that we deploy and an overall buff to PD cruisers so we can keep up with vehicles. As for the drags, they are still very much present in large amounts, if you have one and you use it commit crimes, chances are you are never pulled over for a traffic stop and can easily evade police. 

 

• @Danny-T ''I have seen people saying police cruises go to fast and after doing some research I have found. The average top speed of a police charger is 150 mph which is equivalent to 240 khm. So this shows why cruisers go the speed they do.''

IMO, this is not a good justification. We do it because we took the time to gather data about how many pursuits we were loosing due to speed differences, given the access criminals have to vehicles that go very fast. So that is why they got buffed. If we were to apply realistic speeds to most cars that supers and other sports cars would still go a lot faster than a crown vic. 

I made a suggestion a while back at the height of people abusing FPS bugs to go over 300km/h+ that we should actually just buff every vehicle. I will link it bellow. TL;DR on it is that removing the cap and having vehicles go a lot faster 300+ will equalise the playing field, but also make it a lot harder to control the vehicle. Right now if the max speed is 240km/h then whoever reaches that speed first and more consistently wins, it is a fairly easy speed to handle and chances of crashing aren't very high. Now if you buff most cars or add an incentive for people to tune their cars to higher speeds, you make the racers happy (which is something I would like to see more of), you make the criminals happy as they have their fast cars back, you make PD happy because they can keep up AND most importantly, you create a skill curve where in order for you to take advantage of the speed of your vehicle you now need to learn how to drive at 300+ otherwise you will crash miserable and lose out to someone who was taking it slower at a steady pace. This would also be x100 better with a realistic handling script, but I am unsure of how viable this last part is, maybe with RAGE 1.1 it will be easier.
 

As of writing this no other replies have come in, if you wish to discuss anything in here I ask that you quote only one part as my post is huge and I want to avoid cluttering the thread. 

Bellow are somethings that I think should be implemented in general.
 

1. Remove the speed cap and buff all vehicles, potentially opening up an avenue for tuning scene where illegal vehicle modifications are imported. Make driving a challenge where those who want to go at high-speed are likely to crash and die unless they are good and have learned their specific car. *Potentially add a server side handling script to make vehicle handling harder but more rewarding unlike it is currently* (Some FIVEM servers have this)
2. PD/SD should lose something after they die besides the penalty afforded by NLR, not losing weapons or money, but maybe a cooldown before going back out on full-duty, giving an opportunity for them to focus on towing vehicles or impound lot. This is up to discussion and even I don't know what solution should be implemented.
3. Criminals should stop focusing on fighting PD unless a highly elaborate plan is brought up. If this means you spend more time in a safe house RP'ing having a coffee and talking over a plan to rob a bank with most of your gangs at a certain day of the week then so be it, stop trying to focus on quick reward with no thinking robbery, this is an RP server, act like it.
4. Generally, this is NOT a cops and robbers server. We should be moving in a direction where petty crime can be common VS other criminals and civilians (in a location that makes sense). High-Risk crime is not regular and happens only when there is a high amount of coordination present (AKA Bank Robberies) and where criminals are encouraged to spend their day RPing simple stuff with their friends. I would mention other servers, but I'm not sure if I can even if it is a part of a discussion to improve the server, so I will settle with giving examples of old SAMP days. Nowadays, we don't see RP that involves sitting around at the Dojo where we spend hours with /me and /do fighting other people or simply talking about stuff that pertains to IC events, like we did in BHT. Maybe this is a effect of having VOIP over Text based chat, but I still think an effort could be made here. An example of this was the truckers union fundraising event at the singleton's restaurant. That was one of the coolest RP experiences that I ever had on the server, I just wish this was more common place rather than the exception.

Note: If my spelling or grammar is fucked, my b, don't feel like going back and proofreading everything.

[alexalex303]

1 hour ago, Itzsonzy said:

These points literally hold no relevance to the point i'm trying to push. Yes, legal and crim has fundamental differences and one of the huge downsides of being an LEO is a lack of freedom to do whatever you want. BUT this post is entirely about balance changes, so i'm talking combat situations and shootouts. During shootouts, yes, PD have unlimited guns, ammo and armor. Sure, a criminal can choose what they would like to do but nearly every interaction you have listed will involve LEOs at some point, meaning that the freedom is tied to both ends of the stick in that sense.

Not to mention about freedom, would you like to have more freedom to choose what you would like to do on shift as an LEO, but every single time you clock off you gotta spend 2-4 hours in prison? I doubt it.

It has extreme relevance. The fact that you can not see that is astounding to me.

You literally started your point by saying "Want to fight PD?". Do you see a certain key-word there? "Want". 

You chose to fight law enforcement. Law enforcement for the most part do not have any choice in the matter. They are forced to react to you.

Another person in this thread was in disbelief when a cop suggested that he gave up when surrounded outside a bank robbery. However, that is not unreasonable.

The fact of the matter is that most of the complaints in this thread are a result of careless behavior as a criminal. I've led a street gang that managed to obtain official, and for the first four months of operations, I held a gun license. Do you know how I lost it? I got caught with a heavy at butchers. What did I do when the cops approached me? I put my hands up. Were there other times when I shot at cops? Yes. Absolutely. Sometimes I got away, sometimes I went to prison. But every time, I made a choice. The cops did not.

[braden]

2 hours ago, Danny-T said:

I have seen people saying police cruises go to fast and after doing some research I have found. The average top speed of a police charger is 150 mph which is equivalent to 240 khm. So this shows why cruisers go the speed they do.

The same can't be said for the super cars and sports cars which can easily reach atleast 200mph in real life but are limited to 150mph in game. For example: The Truffade Nero is the in game equivalent to the Bugatti Chiron. The Bugatti Chiron is the worlds fastest supercar reaching 300mph yet the Truffade Nero is limited to 150mph...

I completely understand why the limits are in place I just believe vehicles should be kept in proportion, so the Crown Victoria which tops out at around 130mph or so in real life can not easily keep up with a multi million pound supercar.

Edited June 28, 2020 by braden

[PurplePlant]

Super car speed isn't set by the server its set by default GTA. If it can exceed 240 that's a different story. There is also only one known Nero in the city as it is.. supers are rare and not really the point of the debate as regular sports cars can go way faster, including the comet retro which is only 4 million because it was removed from dealerships due to several bugs/exploits. I think personally if the server wanted faster cars they wouldn't of made these changes to the vehicles that can exceed 300/km.

Edited June 28, 2020 by PurplePlant

[Dara MacFadden]

5 hours ago, Jaquan Smith said:

 So what do you expect? To rob a bank without any risk of getting arrested?

Did you read any of this thread at all

[MEGN]

2 hours ago, NM369 said:

with diffrent NLR rules so they can just respawn and be on the way to fuck you up again.

This is just completely untrue. If you are to find yourself dead and under NLR as PD you cannot just go and re-respond. We have the same NLR rules as everyone else. 

[Bala]

43 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

It has extreme relevance. The fact that you can not see that is astounding to me.

You literally started your point by saying "Want to fight PD?". Do you see a certain key-word there? "Want". 

You chose to fight law enforcement. Law enforcement for the most part do not have any choice in the matter. They are forced to react to you.

Another person in this thread was in disbelief when a cop suggested that he gave up when surrounded outside a bank robbery. However, that is not unreasonable.

The fact of the matter is that most of the complaints in this thread are a result of careless behavior as a criminal. I've led a street gang that managed to obtain official, and for the first four months of operations, I held a gun license. Do you know how I lost it? I got caught with a heavy at butchers. What did I do when the cops approached me? I put my hands up. Were there other times when I shot at cops? Yes. Absolutely. Sometimes I got away, sometimes I went to prison. But every time, I made a choice. The cops did not.

Someone ordered a fax?

• If you're a better criminal, you are harder to catch.
• If you are harder to catch, you will be caught less.
• If you are caught less, you won't spend as long in prison and get as many charges.
• If you don't get as many charges and do not spend as much time in prison, you will have more money and more freedom to do other things.

But instead what will they do?

• Shoot at cops when they're arresting one of your friends, even a minor charge.
• Wear the same clothing and display the same colours openly to show that you are at the very least some kind of organisation.
• Drive in excess of the speed limit on purpose, even in the presence of the cops.
• Continue to shoot at cops but then also, file internal affairs because you got slapped with a charge you don't agree with.
• Drive around in large convoys of vehicles.
• Have recruitment policies that are one step below placing a Weazel advert in game.
• Openly display your weapons in public for all to see.

There is a reason why server staff had to add robbery rules. There is a reason why faction management had to step in and create more structure for the gang wars. Neither of those were on the Police Department. Some of you get criminal role-play so twisted in my view. The aim is to try and do your criminal shit but avoid the attention of the police, not wear a sign around your neck advertising you are a criminal.

No point using the real life argument either. Law Enforcement should be OP, otherwise there would be even more anarchy on the streets. If they can get Pablo Escobar on a rooftop, they can get you.

Rather than another "Nerf PD" thread which is just a slight variation on the last one, maybe try looking at the overall quality of criminal factions and the criminal role-play scene in general. 

Yes, cops are over-powered but it has to be that way, because people on the other side don't seem to be able to limit themselves voluntarily.

[Jaquan Smith]

13 minutes ago, Dara orkonson said:

Did you read any of this thread at all

I was speaking about what you said, not the thread itself

[Machete]

12 minutes ago, MEGN said:

This is just completely untrue. If you are to find yourself dead and under NLR as PD you cannot just go and re-respond. We have the same NLR rules as everyone else. 

You can, check NLR announcement in LSPD discord. "The same situation" which is vague, We've killed almost all PD/SD some time ago  and then one cruiser chased a car. Then the whole PD/SD showed up again onto this chase. Yet it came from the same situation, they just argued that its a diffrent one. You can even go back there if there's a new situation there but without the knowledge of what happened before.

Who decides if its a new situation? the rule is too vague 

[MEGN]

2 minutes ago, NM369 said:

You can, check NLR announcement in LSPD discord. "The same situation" which is vague, We've killed almost all PD/SD some time ago  and then one cruiser chased a car. Then the whole PD/SD showed up again onto this chase. Yet it came from the same situation, they just argued that its a diffrent one. You can even go back there if there's a new situation there but without the knowledge of what happened before.

Who decides if its a new situation? the rule is too vague

We are not allowed to respond to anything that has to do with where we died, or who killed us as per NLR. If someone is doing that you should report them! 

Edited June 28, 2020 by MEGN

[Victor Einhart]

7 hours ago, Einaras said:

PD are butthurted and they are insta decline death rp, even if you got clean 4-5 shoots in head

Just want to speak to this point, I think about the RP that was done before the shooting started.  If zero RP was done before shots were fired at officers, there's no reason to give you anything at all.  If you shoot a cop and win, you just finish them every single time.  You wouldn't RP with them, you'd just shoot them.  If you don't RP before shooting, or your RP consists of "leave or die," that isn't an interesting or fun interaction.  If you immediately go into OOC chat and ask for death RP and only start RPing with police when you lose, you can't expect anything.

[Einaras]

6 minutes ago, Victor Einhart said:

Just want to speak to this point, I think about the RP that was done before the shooting started.  If zero RP was done before shots were fired at officers, there's no reason to give you anything at all.  If you shoot a cop and win, you just finish them every single time.  You wouldn't RP with them, you'd just shoot them.  If you don't RP before shooting, or your RP consists of "leave or die," that isn't an interesting or fun interaction.  If you immediately go into OOC chat and ask for death RP and only start RPing with police when you lose, you can't expect anything.

well i dont start from /ooc give me death rp that i got 4-5 bullets in head, last times I got RP with MD for about 1-2h, even MD told its good reason to give death rp, and got straight answers NO.

[Danny-T]

I give people death RP if they have 1 good RP with in depth /mes /dos and 2 dont cut straight to /o give me death rp. They rp out injuries etc etc and at the end they ask for it. Try that and maybe you might see cops fore inclined to give death rp

[Itzsonzy]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

It has extreme relevance. The fact that you can not see that is astounding to me.

You literally started your point by saying "Want to fight PD?". Do you see a certain key-word there? "Want". 

You chose to fight law enforcement. Law enforcement for the most part do not have any choice in the matter. They are forced to react to you.

Another person in this thread was in disbelief when a cop suggested that he gave up when surrounded outside a bank robbery. However, that is not unreasonable.

The fact of the matter is that most of the complaints in this thread are a result of careless behavior as a criminal. I've led a street gang that managed to obtain official, and for the first four months of operations, I held a gun license. Do you know how I lost it? I got caught with a heavy at butchers. What did I do when the cops approached me? I put my hands up. Were there other times when I shot at cops? Yes. Absolutely. Sometimes I got away, sometimes I went to prison. But every time, I made a choice. The cops did not.

In most situations there is no want. If you chose to engange in illegal activities then nearly every time the cops will be on your ass during or after, and once they pull up and shove their lights on it's instant DM rights, so i fail to see how a criminal is not forced to interact with them if they actually want to be classed as a Criminal. Nearly all script criminal activities involve LEOs in some way shape, or form, usually with it just being a call if you fuck up. 

I'll use a different word other than want as you seem to have taken it a little too literally;

Need money as a criminal, but want some criminal RP on an RP server? Alright, lets look at your options. Rob a bank? Ok, cops patrol it 24/7, and the second the alarm sounds you have 50 or more on you. Too high risk? Ok, lets head over to stores. Time to run every store on the map ( most of the time PD/SD will have the braincells to know your route after the first 4-5 stores ) and make enough money to grab lets see... 3 heavies? Can't forget cops will roll up with more heavies than the cartel ready to rock when they see your ass. Alright, lets head over to the chop shop for something. Oh, cops already know where it is so they are waiting for someone to roll in so they can arrest them? Epic, now lets head to some other script criminal activities! Labs? Oh, they're dead because they got made useless. Cooking? Get ready to afk in your apartment for 4 hours for cash, then sell it and repeat twice and you realise it is as boring as fishing. 

Annd we have run out of criminal scripts. How many of them involve combat with PD, and nearly all of that combat is involantary for both PD and criminals? I did say during my first statement that it is essentially cops and robbers, both of which has to fight for whatever reasons be it IC or OOC. Just sucks to hear that i have to "just get smarter looool 4head" when i'm being chased by 20 cruisers with heavies because someones having a bad day.

[Ezrya]

+1 to most of this except lootable weapons reasons are pretty obvious.

As for the PD coming onto this thread saying "jUsT bE sMaRtEr" if you have ever been a criminal you will know that often things happen that are out of your control, it's not as simple as just "play smarter" as almost every bit of criminal RP involves PD at some point and when it does your essentially evading against 20 cruisers that can for some wild reason keep up with a super that costs millions.

Anything you do as a criminal involves PD. Want to go rob a bank well no matter what the alarm goes off and the entire PD shows up forcing a shootout, want to rob stores PD just begin camping stores, want to go chop shop well can't do that because its already being camped by SD. So please don't come in here saying "be a smarter criminal" blatantly dismissing the entire point of the post. As for the PD on this post complaining about the amount of shootouts that happen well surprise as more often than not most of these situations happen due to PD forcing shootouts I have lost count the amount of times PD have rolled up to a scene insanly outnumbered and attempted an arrest.

The way I see it a lot of this comes from law enforcement factions having little to no consequences IC or OOC. Criminal factions are constantly reminded and spoken to about their level of RP from faction management, constantly given ways to improve ect. and if you continue to display poor RP in an official criminal faction then you risk losing official. PD display poor RP all you get is "just IA report it" which most of the time ends in just the officer getting "spoken to about their actions". and yet with every rule added to improve criminal RP is see nothing coming from law enforcement in ways they can improve.

[UrbanAwsomeman]

24 minutes ago, Ezrya said:

+1 to most of this except lootable weapons reasons are pretty obvious.

As for the PD coming onto this thread saying "jUsT bE sMaRtEr" if you have ever been a criminal you will know that often things happen that are out of your control, it's not as simple as just "play smarter" as almost every bit of criminal RP involves PD at some point and when it does your essentially evading against 20 cruisers that can for some wild reason keep up with a super that costs millions.

Anything you do as a criminal involves PD. Want to go rob a bank well no matter what the alarm goes off and the entire PD shows up forcing a shootout, want to rob stores PD just begin camping stores, want to go chop shop well can't do that because its already being camped by SD. So please don't come in here saying "be a smarter criminal" blatantly dismissing the entire point of the post. As for the PD on this post complaining about the amount of shootouts that happen well surprise as more often than not most of these situations happen due to PD forcing shootouts I have lost count the amount of times PD have rolled up to a scene insanly outnumbered and attempted an arrest.

The way I see it a lot of this comes from law enforcement factions having little to no consequences IC or OOC. Criminal factions are constantly reminded and spoken to about their level of RP from faction management, constantly given ways to improve ect. and if you continue to display poor RP in an official criminal faction then you risk losing official. PD display poor RP all you get is "just IA report it" which most of the time ends in just the officer getting "spoken to about their actions". and yet with every rule added to improve criminal RP is see nothing coming from law enforcement in ways they can improve.

PD members are held to a high RP standard and are suspended if they dont follow with it. For example I was suspended from PD for non-rp early into my time in LSPD which I rightly deserved. What I did to get suspended was perfectly allowed within the server rules but was not the standard of RP that LSPD wants so I was punished for it.

If you feel that an officers RP is poor submit an OOC IA against them. The system really does work as the people running IA are actually making sure officers are following regulations and punsihing those that dont. But remember that if your not happy with an officers level of RP make sure your level of RP is the same level as you want from them.

[Cyrus Raven]

1 hour ago, Ezrya said:

+1 to most of this except lootable weapons reasons are pretty obvious.

As for the PD coming onto this thread saying "jUsT bE sMaRtEr" if you have ever been a criminal you will know that often things happen that are out of your control, it's not as simple as just "play smarter" as almost every bit of criminal RP involves PD at some point and when it does your essentially evading against 20 cruisers that can for some wild reason keep up with a super that costs millions.

Anything you do as a criminal involves PD. Want to go rob a bank well no matter what the alarm goes off and the entire PD shows up forcing a shootout, want to rob stores PD just begin camping stores, want to go chop shop well can't do that because its already being camped by SD. So please don't come in here saying "be a smarter criminal" blatantly dismissing the entire point of the post. As for the PD on this post complaining about the amount of shootouts that happen well surprise as more often than not most of these situations happen due to PD forcing shootouts I have lost count the amount of times PD have rolled up to a scene insanly outnumbered and attempted an arrest.

The way I see it a lot of this comes from law enforcement factions having little to no consequences IC or OOC. Criminal factions are constantly reminded and spoken to about their level of RP from faction management, constantly given ways to improve ect. and if you continue to display poor RP in an official criminal faction then you risk losing official. PD display poor RP all you get is "just IA report it" which most of the time ends in just the officer getting "spoken to about their actions". and yet with every rule added to improve criminal RP is see nothing coming from law enforcement in ways they can improve.

You say that things are out of your control and PD are just coming in here saying ''Just be smarter'' then proceed to outline situations where you should just be smarter...
 

• Anything you do as a criminal involves PD. Want to go rob a bank well no matter what the alarm goes off and the entire PD shows up forcing a shootout

Yeah, no shit, it's a freaking bank. If gangs want to rob banks do it rarely but with a lot of coordination and numbers. Maybe instead of Dojin trying to rob a bank every other day and getting outnumbered they should coordinate with two or three other groups, set a day and time up and then hit it hard with a ton of people. You can't seriously be complaining about PD responding to bank alarms... It's literally our job. 

However, if you want to complain how you can't easily get hostages for these bank heists, that is a totally valid view and one I agree with. There needs to be a balance between preventing gangs from being able to take anyone hostage while allowing exceptions so gangs have some leverage IC'ly for negotiations. If you want to complain how the alarm shouldn't go off if you do X things correctly in a row then I also agree with that, you probably shouldn't be able to stealth an entire heist, but having ways to delay the alarm and give you more opportunity to escape is also something I agree with. Guess what, both these options are suggestions that need to be brought up to developers and have NOTHING to do with Law Enforcement. 

• want to rob stores PD just begin camping stores

To my knowledge this does NOT happen and if it does you should report it. What DOES happen is if we as Law Enforcement notice a pattern of stores being robbed in a row then we will obviously put 2 and 2 together and temporarily check nearby stores where it makes sense. This is wholly different to ''camping stores''.

• want to go chop shop well can't do that because its already being camped by SD

The chop shop rotates locations unlike the drug labs, therefore, if we get multiple reports of stolen vehicles we might check known locations, this part obviously pertains more to SD considering most of the chop shops are up north. However, from my experience in SD we try not to camp any chop shops unless we are ACTIVELY looking for a stolen vehicle which has been reported to us by 911 or in person. Being smarter in this case means setting up lookouts to tell you if police are coming, instead of being surprised when you eventually get raided. It seems you just want to be able to commit crimes with 0 opposition. If you have an issue with how chop shops are rotated or the amount of them then suggest something to developers, once again this isn't a Law Enforcement issue and we are only using IC elements when going into one.

• The way I see it a lot of this comes from law enforcement factions having little to no consequences IC or OOC. Criminal factions are constantly reminded and spoken to about their level of RP from faction management, constantly given ways to improve ect. and if you continue to display poor RP in an official criminal faction then you risk losing official. PD display poor RP all you get is "just IA report it" which most of the time ends in just the officer getting "spoken to about their actions". and yet with every rule added to improve criminal RP is see nothing coming from law enforcement in ways they can improve.

This is blatantly false, and it shows that you have little to no experience with law enforcement or you're being dishonest. As mentioned by others PD/SD have very strict RP standards, in fact we have one of the toughest recruitment processes out of all the factions. We are constantly reminded to keep a high level of RP and anyone that is found or reported to be displaying poor RP or even doing anything in a corrupt manner is spoken to and dealt with. You also have to keep in mind that a lot of IA reports given are frankly BS. This isn't to say that there isn't valid IA reports being done, but when you have a lot of BS it gives you the perception that everyone is getting away Scott free when in fact they didn't get punished because they did nothing wrong. I agree another recourse should be available and hopefully Osborn's efforts to create a justice system will aid in this endeavour, although I suspect the complaints would continue even with a justice system due to lack of self-reflection.

 

 

[Ezrya]

30 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Yeah, no shit, it's a freaking bank. If gangs want to rob banks do it rarely but with a lot of coordination and numbers. Maybe instead of Dojin trying to rob a bank every other day and getting outnumbered they should coordinate with two or three other groups, set a day and time up and then hit it hard with a ton of people. You can't seriously be complaining about PD responding to bank alarms... It's literally our job. 

However, if you want to complain how you can't easily get hostages for these bank heists, that is a totally valid view and one I agree with. There needs to be a balance between preventing gangs from being able to take anyone hostage while allowing exceptions so gangs have some leverage IC'ly for negotiations. If you want to complain how the alarm shouldn't go off if you do X things correctly in a row then I also agree with that, you probably shouldn't be able to stealth an entire heist, but having ways to delay the alarm and give you more opportunity to escape is also something I agree with. Guess what, both these options are suggestions that need to be brought up to developers and have NOTHING to do with Law Enforcement. 

We did hit banks with coordination and numbers at least in triads we did and guess what, it got complained about. What your literally suggesting here is us get more numbers to hit banks with to counter the PD response but when we do that we get complaints from PD its an unrealistic amount to rob a bank with. There has been instances where criminal factions have been told to reduce the number of shootouts with PD but yet banks literally force a shootout with PD. Rather than gangs being given options in ways they can approach a bank and plan it out to avoid law enforcement instead it forces us into a shootout. While this is more of a problem with banks than law enforcement factions this goes to show more examples of where criminal factions are constantly bashed for their RP yet I never see any ways coming in for PD to improve.

50 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

As mentioned by others PD/SD have very strict RP standards, in fact we have one of the toughest recruitment processes out of all the factions.

I actually disagree with this, the law enforcement factions on this server are probably some of the more unrealistic I have seen. I have been arrested by officers where I have had to literally explain server rules ect.

My main point is there's been tons of suggestions in the past about law enforcement, this obviously isn't the first one and most definetly wont be the last but yet none of it ever gets taken into consideration, there's never any ways introduced where law enforcement factions can improve meanwhile criminal factions are constantly dragged down with tons of OOC rules, lots of control from FM in ways to improve RP, new server rules ect. Whenever one of these posts pops up all we get is "just IA report it" or "be smarter" when a lot of points come from these posts are genuinly good ways PD could improve because in the end they aren't perfect and just like criminal factions could use improvement.

[Cyrus Raven]

25 minutes ago, Ezrya said:

We did hit banks with coordination and numbers at least in triads we did and guess what, it got complained about. What your literally suggesting here is us get more numbers to hit banks with to counter the PD response but when we do that we get complaints from PD its an unrealistic amount to rob a bank with. There has been instances where criminal factions have been told to reduce the number of shootouts with PD but yet banks literally force a shootout with PD. Rather than gangs being given options in ways they can approach a bank and plan it out to avoid law enforcement instead it forces us into a shootout. While this is more of a problem with banks than law enforcement factions this goes to show more examples of where criminal factions are constantly bashed for their RP yet I never see any ways coming in for PD to improve.

I do not have access to what FM tell you, unless it is coming from a staff member you can promptly tell anyone to fuck off about how you and your gang conduct themselves as long as it is within the rules. 

When you say ''What your literally suggesting here is us get more numbers to hit banks with to counter the PD response but when we do that we get complaints from PD its an unrealistic amount to rob a bank with.'' I am not sure what you mean, can you elaborate ?

As for the recruitment comment, I disagree, I've been in law enforcement since I've joined the server and I've also been involved in recruitment when I was in SD, like anyone in a new job people have to learn, some will go on to become good members others will fail, to say that all of this effort should be tainted because of maybe one encounter where you had to tell someone the rules is illogical. Just like I try not to judge all gang members based on my daily encounters with new players who have no idea how to RP, they might be criminals, just like you, but the level of RP is different and I understand that. 

I think I try and have a fair outlook on what criminals go through, obviously I don't play criminal characters and I don't plan to anytime soon, but I also know that my preferred style of RP is one which is slow where situations can develop over the course of hours, instead of shootouts. All of this to say that sometimes it feels like these suggestions are aimed at Law Enforcement when the focus should be on improving the way things work with developer support. As far as I am concerned most of these complaints are about the IC actions of PD/SD. 

[TheCactus]

Most people don't understand very simple concepts that are like this to make everything "work". Your way of thinking things does not go beyond, so you stop in front of that "something" you define as a problem but it actually is there for a reason. I will now try to explain a couple of those things you identify as "mistakes that need a fix" or problems and I really hope you will understand.

Lootable weapons:
- First of all, head admins clearly said that weapons from legal official faction members will not be lootable in the future. That is because people (and by people I don't mean Zetas and Triads, but even players that are new to the server) will abuse it, go 4v1 and rob cops for heavies which would drastically motivate unrealistic actions, knowing that going 4v1 on a cop for a carbine is kind of medium risk and high reward.

Weapons cap:
- Have you ever seen a police department have issues such as "uhm.. we don't have weapons"? You keep missing the point that we don't use weapons to make money and we don't keep them off-duty. We use them to protect citizens from those criminals who have them.

More clear rules or clarifications for LEOs:
- You might've missed or forgot some of the regulations we have while you were in PD. We deploy Kamachos for Kamachos and PIT-ing an SUV with a cruiser is considered both an IC and OOC breach of regulations. If you feel like what someone did is unrealistic or Non-RP, write up an OOC IA report or forum report.
With that being said, let PD RP their regulations and deal with their IC issues and mind your own RP.

Faction members cap:
- Police will never be outbumbered in a gang vs police fight in real life but it happens on the server because if all the gangs, official and not, go against law enforcement (leaving the bad aim and horrible tactics of most cops aside), criminals will win. We do not recruit every month because we want to be the faction with most members. We do it because a lot of people leave the faction, a lot of people join the server and we gotta compensate. 

Prison times:
- Lower prison times? Yes please. A cap would be useful. Not as low as it was a year ago though.

On an end note, I am kind of disappointed about the mentality that the majority of the server has: PD is not meant to be balanced compared to criminals and is not meant to lose more than criminals.
This suggestion/discussion pops out every month and I see the same people reply right after experienced members of the community and staff members explain them why things are like this. Now seeing this from an old member of the faction (the person who started the discussion) makes me think that he didn't understand either and probably most of the members we currently have still don't.

P.S.:
I am seeing some posts (that again, pop up on every discussion that involves PD) about people camping banks, stores, chop shops, etc.. We all have bad apples in our faction and if they do it, it does not mean that everybody does it. If someone's RP is unrealistic or they are breaking rules, I repeat, go ahead and report them either with an OOC IA report or forum report.

P.S.S.:
DeathRP gets denied because you either ask it as soon as someone approaches, you broke a server rule but we can't be arsed to report or your RP is garbage.
Step up your RP and you will receive it. I've seen people with the New Player tag do incredible quality roleplay and I personally asked them if they want DeathRP even if they have been CPR-ed by someone. It is never too late to die, even if you are already in the ambulance.

Edited June 29, 2020 by TheCactus

[Cyrus Raven]

1 hour ago, TheCactus said:

P.S.S.:
DeathRP gets denied because you either ask it as soon as someone approaches, you broke a server rule but we can't be arsed to report or your RP is garbage.
Step up your RP and you will receive it. I've seen people with the New Player tag to incredible roleplay and I personally asked them if they want DeathRP even if they have been CPR-ed by someone. It is never too late to die, even if you are already in the ambulance.

Big +1 for this last part. 

 

People seem to think we just want to insta deny DeathRP to everyone, but what we want to see is people doing some in-depth RP from the situation from the get-go, not jump straight to /b for permission. Hoping in /b and complaining that you got shot 5 times in the head when you're playing a server that takes multiple shots to injure someone will most likely get you insta denied.

Easy guide to getting DeathRP (be advised this is a guide on how to INCREASE your chances, it doesn't mean you will get DeathRP every single time).
 

1. DO NOT ask for DeathRP as soon as you get injured and approached by an officer. You should ALWAYS aim to RP as much as possible and then if we notice your RP we might give you permission for DeathRP, you shouldn't be only RPing if you get DeathRP.
2. Make sure you do extensive /mes and /dos to properly describe your wounds, if you wish to RP your death then progressively describe these wounds as getting worse and worse. It is OK to let medical RP happen, you can still RP other side effects of the wounds without blocking the officer's attempts to slow bleeding.
3. Enjoy the scenario itself, don't go in thinking you're already gonna ask for DeathRP, RP your wounds realistically and always try your best to be detailed, maybe even throw some /dice in there for certain types of treatment to involve other people.

[Itzsonzy]

11 hours ago, TheCactus said:

P.S.S.:
DeathRP gets denied because you either ask it as soon as someone approaches, you broke a server rule but we can't be arsed to report or your RP is garbage.
Step up your RP and you will receive it. I've seen people with the New Player tag do incredible quality roleplay and I personally asked them if they want DeathRP even if they have been CPR-ed by someone. It is never too late to die, even if you are already in the ambulance.

This has to be a joke, i can tell you personally that i always RP treatment and injuries to a very high level due to the research i had to do for MD, and still no matter the quality of RP, situation its in, it's all down to one, select person in fchat saying "denied". 

I know this because as you said, i was in the faction. I know that just because 1 officer doesn't like you or 1 isn't happy they got clapped, they can insta deny your deathrp. Why do i know this? Because i've done it.