Jump to content

Make sure you join our Discord server https://discord.gg/7UhB9YT

Itzsonzy

Law Enforcement Discussion

Recommended Posts

Hello fellow guys/girls/traps, i come today with a topic i've noticed has come more and more hot over the past weeks and has been an outstanding issue for a long time in my opinion.

I have sat on both sides for quite a long time now with the cops and robbers nature of the server. I spent just over a month and a half in LSPD, and have the vast majority of my playtime on a legal character. Therefore, i'll start off with the legal perspective;

I found really no issues on my legal character. Rules only very rarely play a part in the RP, meaning that before joining PD i had one clean ass admin record. I found when coming into PD specifically that i was suddenly having to be more aware of the rules persay, and put simply i just had to fineline things to follow very specific rules that had a tendency to change. Still, for a long while i entered into the mentalility that lots of PD (Less common in DOC/SD) share, which is just a win over all mindset. I would regularly go into gunfights, well aware OOCly that i loose nothing from this gunfight. This lead on several occasions to me and the majority of the faction to head on into situations insanely outnumbered, and 9/10 times this was not arisen as an OOC issue or as a rulebreak. Not to mention, the fact was that i faced criminals all the time that have to put hours and hours of effort and money to have the fight, only to be gunned down by someone who respawns, goes into a locker and refills. Hell, you dont even have to pay for your GPS and radio as you get em for free. 

Now coming onto the Criminal side from my POV, i originally entered the server on a criminal character but grew very bored of the "clap clap" mentaility and moved over to my legal. Around 5-6 months of being only on a legal character, i went back out and made a new character and started from scratch with the idea of becoming a full fledged criminal. From the moment i began interacting with other big groups of criminals and RPing more on the illegal side, i realised just how inbalanced it is from the get go. As a criminal, i had to again go over every spec in the rules as in nearly all gunfights, it would result in /b chatter or forum reports. This is still true to this day, and while i, myself am guilty of these things, it just goes to show one of the knocks that criminals are faced with before they even do anything IC. Next, i have what this forum post is about, PD. I will try as hard as i can to not do anything to slander and disrespect the faction as that is not the point of this post, i just want my points to be made clear from what i've exeperienced being both in the faction and against it.

Want to fight PD? Alright. Each of you put 30+k worth of guns on the line, 6 hours OOC in prison time, with the reward for actually winning and outplaying being a 🙂. The simple observation i had is that PD have a 150+ (Plus SD which is 100 odd more if i remember right) member faction, unlimited free weapons, double health of criminals, free vehicles that are faster & better than almost any car a criminal can get, and on top of that they have alot of intricasies to the rules that heavily work in their favour in a scenario featuring a potential rulebreak.

TLDR? I think Law Enforcement on this server on general is very overpowered, and there are a hundred and 1 ways to nerf them without changing much RP and making it so criminals can stand a chance. Expecially since each criminal faction may only have 40 members, now is defo the time to see some nerfs to PD, and i'll add that in my nearly a year on the server now i have not seen a single nerf to Law Enforcement, but have seen plenty of Criminal balance changes. 

LEO Nerfs:

- Lootable weapons

- Only a certin amount of weapons can be taken from lockers, and the budget actually has to be managed to accomadate the amount of weaponary.

- More clear rules or clarifications for LEOs. ( As a crim, i can't ram a Ingot (4 door saloon) in a contender, but a cruiser can boot me off the road while im in a Kamacho? o.O ) 

- A limit to the amount of members a legal faction can have. Numbers difference right now is a bit much.

- Lower prison times, on no planet is it fun to be a full time criminal and spend 6+ hrs in prison at 1 given time.

At the end of the day, this is a discussion, so i'd like to hear from all of the community what your take is on Law Enforcement on the server. I am more than happy to make an entire suggestion thread for things the community may have in mind.

 

Again, friendly reminder that this is not meant to target or slander another faction, but instead to be able to talk about how both sides feel as i can say personally i'm lowkey getting bored of spending hours upon hours in prison and having to fight a faction i gain nothing from, but are paid to fight me.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
  • Upvote 17

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 Its not really RP for cops to have as much ammo,guns and cars, cause they dont care if they lose them. They just rush in like maniacs.

Edited by CkoZz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very big +1. Great post and great suggestions.

No doubt this will be bombarded by people defending PD but a serious change is needed.

The fact that the police cruisers can very easily keep up with supercarsjust does not make sense at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

-1 PD is supposed to be overpowered, this is how things have always worked. Criminals can overcome PD if they're smart about what they're doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Itzsonzy said:

Can i know why rather than a number? Is meant to be a discussion 😛

You don't want people targeting police for their weapons, would be unrealistic.

But the fact that PD / SD loses literally nothing when they do something stupid or just get overpowered is wack. They need an economy just like the rest of the server.

Edited by Copperhorse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1

  • Why should cops fear for their lives, their weapons, their vehicles or their colleagues when they can simply /pw to get unlimited weapons and /fspawn to get a fresh cruiser?
  • If guns were lootable, then maybe cops would put more thought into the items they take out of the armoury for basic patrols, as well as actually being tactical about the situations they choose to intervene in, instead of simply bumrushing 20 criminals with like 2 officers, knowing full well that neither them nor the department will take any hit to its resources or (non-existant) budget. The way that guns aren't lootable from cops seems like an OOC restriction on something that makes a lot of sense IC. If cops don't want their carbines taken, then maybe they should be more cautious with their approach to law enforcement.
  • Why do we pay taxes if that money isn't actually used IC? Seems pointless to me, although it would make a lot more sense if that money went towards the police budget. PD could then have resource managers that are in charge of ordering weaponry and vehicles; with heavier equipment requiring High Command approval to be taking out of the armoury.
  • Additionally, I believe that PD needs to start acting in a more realistic manner, because currently they behave however they want, and then when you call them out on it, they simply say '/b thats IC' or '/b file an IA report'. There's nothing fair oocly and icly about cops ramming you and then having the nerve to arrest you for it, or for them to randomly stop you in the middle of the street to ask if you have a license for the gun on your back.
  • As for the times we have to spend in DOC, I don't believe the solution is to lower the times, but rather there should be more to actually do in prison rather than standing there for hours watching netflix or getting punched by new players
  • Another thing is the way in which cops will take everything off your person and out of your car, simply to despawn it in the back of their cruiser. This is absolutely unnecessary and enforces the winning mentality that so many cops have on Eclipse. I know that cops don't have to spare a penny for their equipment, but the rest of us do, so that must be taken in consideration.
  • PD vehicles are currently overpowered. How is it realistic that a shitty Queen Vic can do 240 on a highway, traverse every terrain, whilst A 20mil+ supercar cannot? This could be solvable by removing the 240kmh speed limit, or lowering the speed of PD vehicles. This is similar to my suggestion about the PD budget, but also why does it make sense that cops are regularly seen driving around on drag bikes and in supercars? Realistically, a police budget would not stretch that far, nor would commercial vehicles like those every be approved for use by Law Enforcement

TL;DR, my suggestions

  1. Cops should be lootable for their weapons
  2. There should be a budget system, using player-paid taxes, for government departments to order equipment
  3. There needs to be more ooc regulations on how cops conduct themselves. Not everything they do is ICly solvable
  4. Prison needs improving for it to be more immersive
  5. Cops shouldn't be able to simply take all your possessions and despawn them
  6. PD vehicles need a nerf

Winning mentalities should never be welcome on this server

Edited by FrankieP
  • Like 1
  • Upvote 6
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Copperhorse said:

You don't want people targeting police for their weapons, would be unrealistic.

Im pretty sure IRL gangs can take guns from cops and they are not stuck to them? Also a rule could be added for attacking cops purely to rob their guns off.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, CkoZz said:

Im pretty sure IRL gangs can take guns from cops and they are not stuck to them? Also a rule could be added for attacking cops purely to rob their guns off.

Gangs dont target police for their weapons. They would maybe target them if they were working on a case or something, but not over a weapon or two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Itzsonzy said:

Can i know why rather than a number? Is meant to be a discussion 😛

First of all, people will start to hunt LEO only for the loot and it won't be realistic.

Second of all, you keep saying "lower and lower our prison time", we all know what are the results of our crimes.

  • Upvote 1
  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Copperhorse said:

Gangs dont target police for their weapons. They would maybe target them if they were working on a case or something, but not over a weapon or two.

This post isn't about going around and robbing cops, its about making cops care for losing their shit. Currently they don't care if they die cause they can get unlimited amounts of equipment. Its everything but realistic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, CkoZz said:

This post isn't about going around and robbing cops, its about making cops care for losing their shit. Currently they don't care if they die cause they can get unlimited amounts of equipment. Its everything but realistic.

Right I've said already that they need to have an economy just like the rest of the server. Every weapon they take out makes their treasury lose X, when they finish their shift they put them back and it goes back up except for the ammo they used. Their treasury gets increased via tickets, taxes, and prison fines. It would bring about a whole new wave of different RP opportunities. We could have a mayor who the government factions argue for increased budgets AKA taxes and then civilians will be mad because of the increased taxes etc. There's a whole lot that can be built RP wise if we have a full fledged economy throughout the whole server.

Edited by Copperhorse
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Copperhorse said:

Right I've said already that they need to have an economy just like the rest of the server. Every weapon they take out makes their treasury lose X, when they finish their shift they put them back and it goes back up except for the ammo they used. Their treasury gets increased via tickets, taxes, and prison fines.

Im glad we are on the same page 😄

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the thing, if you are going to compare the two, you are always going to see imbalances between the two. I don't want to belittle your point of view at all, but I feel like six weeks isn't long enough to form a complete opinion on one side of the argument. I wouldn't presume to know the struggle of the criminal, I only really know the cop side because I've been a cop for almost 16 months now.

Want to fight PD? Alright. Each of you put 30+k worth of guns on the line, 6 hours OOC in prison time, with the reward for actually winning and outplaying being a . The simple observation i had is that PD have a 150+ (Plus SD which is 100 odd more if i remember right) member faction, unlimited free weapons, double health of criminals, free vehicles that are faster & better than almost any car a criminal can get, and on top of that they have alot of intricasies to the rules that heavily work in their favour in a scenario featuring a potential rulebreak.

To be completely honest with you, there are a lot of criminals on here that don't operate very smartly. To the point where we have had to introduce robbery rules about where you can and cannot rob someone because people cannot seem to make those decisions for themselves. 

These things are free for us, because they do not belong to us individually. We don't own a cruiser, we don't own our service weapon and even our uniforms are rented. We don't lose them to criminals for the simple reason, they're not ours to give away.

As for vehicles that are faster than almost any car a criminal can get. There are a number of vehicles that can outrun police vehicles. In terms of the high speed and the air units, they require special training and have restrictions on them to use.

As for rules, the nature of our factions dictate that we have a slightly different interpretation of some of the rules. The reason for this is that our goals are very different to yours. We are not trying to kill people, we're trying to arrest them. We're not trying to rob someone, we're trying to confiscate any illegally gained items. We're not trying to get away, we're trying to keep up.

TLDR? I think Law Enforcement on this server on general is very overpowered, and there are a hundred and 1 ways to nerf them without changing much RP and making it so criminals can stand a chance. Expecially since each criminal faction may only have 40 members, now is defo the time to see some nerfs to PD, and i'll add that in my nearly a year on the server now i have not seen a single nerf to Law Enforcement, but have seen plenty of Criminal balance changes. 

Quite frankly, if you didn't see in six weeks why PD needs to have bigger numbers, I'm not sure what you saw. Like Medics and DOC, PD is a reactive faction. We rely on criminals to be be criminals in order to do our thing. When we have someone detained and you show up in your vehicles, that first move is always yours to make. PD is not going to be firing the first shot, we'll be reacting to you shooting. Sometimes even with the bodies we have, it still isn't enough to get the job done.

We might not share the same rules verbatim but we have an entire different set to follow. What to do in a chase, what to do in a shootout, how to arrest someone, when to arrest someone, we have to learn, follow and obey the IC rules and still keep the OOC ones too.

- - -

As a long term cop, I have to say that a lot of you make it REALLY easy to catch you doing something you shouldn't. You all dress in the same clothes, paint your vehicles one colour, hang out at the same place, do your dirt in public and bring an unnecessary amount of heat on yourselves and those you affiliate with.

People don't play it smart, they play for the clout. 

If you don't want to get caught, be a better criminal. PD may be OP, I don't know, not for me to say but some of you make it really, really easy for us. 

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lootable weapons will cause people to focus more on a "cops and robbers" aspect and hunt cops down for their weapons fabricating a valid rp reason to make it not deathmatching.

Weapons are restricted per rank and no special weaponry is unlocked until Police Officer II. Each weapon is heavily regulated and there are MANY internal rules pertaining to them. Currently, less than half of the members in the faction have access to anything above a shotgun.

As I am sure you are aware since you were in PD, PD is heavily regulated ICly and OOCly. The rules are clear as day when you are in PD/SD as the handbook is constructed around the server's rulebook. I even remember @CallumMontie saying once how it's extremely easy to be in PD and never catch a case in your admin logs. What you need to remember about the ramming is about realistic use of a vehicle and value per the rules. Cruisers are built reinforced with ram/bull bars on the front, they are more than able to PIT a vehicle of the same or slightly larger size than it.

If there was to be a limit to Law Enforcement, there would also have to be a limit to active criminals as there is no situation anywhere in the world where a street gang outnumber an entire city/states police force. To cap the LEOs would not be a healthy step for the community especially civilian RPers.

Prison times are as they are for a reason, It is to stop a single player going around shooting shit up then getting back to it after watching a single episode of the Big Bang Theory while AFK in jail. If you do a load of crimes, ICly be smart about it to either not get identified initially or get caught eventually.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Bala said:

To be completely honest with you, there are a lot of criminals on here that don't operate very smartly. To the point where we have had to introduce robbery rules about where you can and cannot rob someone because people cannot seem to make those decisions for themselves. 

This is besides the point, if criminals don't act smartly, they get caught, no ones arguing against that. The problem is that we can plan our operations as smoothly as possible, with intricate planning, but more often than not, it will be ruined by cops that will disregard our rp (i.e shooting unarmed hostages, refusing rp'd fake ID's, catching a scammer through ID despite them changing name and having plastic surgery), they will act as if they're above the rules (constant VDM from cops), and will run head first into fights without second guessing (all because their is no setback to their faction if they lose their weapons). As for the new robbery rules, I agree with them completely.

These things are free for us, because they do not belong to us individually. We don't own a cruiser, we don't own our service weapon and even our uniforms are rented. We don't lose them to criminals for the simple reason, they're not ours to give away.

No one's saying that the individual cops should be hit by the loss of weapons and cruisers, we're saying that it should be the faction that suffers via a hit to their budget

As for vehicles that are faster than almost any car a criminal can get. There are a number of vehicles that can outrun police vehicles. In terms of the high speed and the air units, they require special training and have restrictions on them to use.

No, there are barely any vehicles that can lose cops. I only ever see cops be outrun because of their own incompetence or the maneuvering skills of the criminal; the vehicle in question rarely has an effect.

We might not share the same rules verbatim but we have an entire different set to follow. What to do in a chase, what to do in a shootout, how to arrest someone, when to arrest someone, we have to learn, follow and obey the IC rules and still keep the OOC ones too.

Further OOC regulations are most definitely needed for cops. Cops refusing to follow their own protocol, being unreasonable, arresting without reason or simply being unprofessional is OOC corruption. Any questioning of these things is usually met with '/b thats IC' or '/b make an IA report'. This should not be allowed.- - -

As a long term cop, I have to say that a lot of you make it REALLY easy to catch you doing something you shouldn't. You all dress in the same clothes, paint your vehicles one colour, hang out at the same place, do your dirt in public and bring an unnecessary amount of heat on yourselves and those you affiliate with.

Well done, you've discovered G A N G S

If you don't want to get caught, be a better criminal. PD may be OP, I don't know, not for me to say but some of you make it really, really easy for us. 

If weapons for lootable, then I could spin this on you. I could say that if you don't want to lose your weapons and life (the latter of which should be protected anyway as per fearrp rules), you should play smarter and be a better cop

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, MrSilky said:

Lootable weapons will cause people to focus more on a "cops and robbers" aspect and hunt cops down for their weapons fabricating a valid rp reason to make it not deathmatching.

I agree, which is why lootable weapons should come with rules that prevent the hunting of cops. When I say that weapons should be lootable, I mean this as a consequence against PD for losing a gunfight that they chose to initiate

Weapons are restricted per rank and no special weaponry is unlocked until Police Officer II. Each weapon is heavily regulated and there are MANY internal rules pertaining to them. Currently, less than half of the members in the faction have access to anything above a shotgun.

Pistols are still valuable, and if 40 cops lost a .50 in a shootout, the budget would surely take a hit.

As I am sure you are aware since you were in PD, PD is heavily regulated ICly and OOCly. The rules are clear as day when you are in PD/SD as the handbook is constructed around the server's rulebook. I even remember @CallumMontie saying once how it's extremely easy to be in PD and never catch a case in your admin logs. What you need to remember about the ramming is about realistic use of a vehicle and value per the rules. Cruisers are built reinforced with ram/bull bars on the front, they are more than able to PIT a vehicle of the same or slightly larger size than it.

Yes it's easy to not catch a case because cops are constantly getting away with blatant VDM, nonrp and fearrp. As for ramming, this is pure waffle I'm afraid, a shitty Queen Vic cruiser could NEVER ram a vehicle like a Rebla, Kamacho or Contender. The ram bars are on the front, but more often than not, the PITs come from the side of the cruiser, or the front corners of the cruiser where the headlights are. A cruiser that fails a PIT should be knocked out of a pursuit indefinitely.

Prison times are as they are for a reason, It is to stop a single player going around shooting shit up then getting back to it after watching a single episode of the Big Bang Theory while AFK in jail. If you do a load of crimes, ICly be smart about it to either not get identified initially or get caught eventually.

As stated previously, I don't really have a problem with prison times, rather I have an issue with the sheer lack of things to do in prison. Also, this is a lie, absolutely no one watches the Big Bang Theory 😁

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Jaquan Smith said:

First of all, people will start to hunt LEO only for the loot and it won't be realistic.

Second of all, you keep saying "lower and lower our prison time", we all know what are the results of our crimes.

Considered that rules already state you cant call cops just to rob them? I'm sure if lootable it can go one of two options can be had, either make it a % to drop their weapons, or make it so PD should not be robbed in the rules unless you have DM rights on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, MrSilky said:

Lootable weapons will cause people to focus more on a "cops and robbers" aspect and hunt cops down for their weapons fabricating a valid rp reason to make it not deathmatching.

Weapons are restricted per rank and no special weaponry is unlocked until Police Officer II. Each weapon is heavily regulated and there are MANY internal rules pertaining to them. Currently, less than half of the members in the faction have access to anything above a shotgun.

As I am sure you are aware since you were in PD, PD is heavily regulated ICly and OOCly. The rules are clear as day when you are in PD/SD as the handbook is constructed around the server's rulebook. I even remember @CallumMontie saying once how it's extremely easy to be in PD and never catch a case in your admin logs. What you need to remember about the ramming is about realistic use of a vehicle and value per the rules. Cruisers are built reinforced with ram/bull bars on the front, they are more than able to PIT a vehicle of the same or slightly larger size than it.

If there was to be a limit to Law Enforcement, there would also have to be a limit to active criminals as there is no situation anywhere in the world where a street gang outnumber an entire city/states police force. To cap the LEOs would not be a healthy step for the community especially civilian RPers.

Prison times are as they are for a reason, It is to stop a single player going around shooting shit up then getting back to it after watching a single episode of the Big Bang Theory while AFK in jail. If you do a load of crimes, ICly be smart about it to either not get identified initially or get caught eventually.

"If there was to be a limit to Law Enforcement, there would also have to be a limit to active criminals as there is no situation anywhere in the world where a street gang outnumber an entire city/states police force. To cap the LEOs would not be a healthy step for the community especially civilian RPers."

Official factions have already been reduced from 60 members to 40 members due to OOC cap. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They needs to be a sense of immersion when it comes to cops and their ultimate guns, cars and so on yes while they might not own the items in question they still get a salary and have fun on the job so what if they die they lose nothing and can just do the same thing all over again.

When cop cars gets rekt they just drive to PD and spawn a new one fresh fuel, health, and vests cops should haft to get cars repaired just like anyone else open up and armoury within the PD so they must go and get new stock when needed like kevlar vests, guns and ammo. Cops should also need to refuel cars when required and take it to the repair shop when needed.

Auto repair shops could be opened just for police vehicles, one behind Paleto SD and another at the abandoned PD near highend in the city more immersion would benefit everyone and no longer could cops just keep rinsing and repeating after every pursuit or shootout.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.