We Just Tried to Rob a Bank. It was the most fun- until it wasnt.

[Bala]

I'll be completely honest, the two least things I personally enjoy getting involved in as a cop on the server are bank robberies and hostage situations, inevitably one leads to the other a ridiculous amount of times. From my point of view, it's fucking miserable. 

Whether it's select groups setting off the alarms like clock-work at a specific type every day, people taking their friends hostage, making unrealistic demands, all running off in different directions with packed money that takes ages to open, an entire group of police officers all huddled around one bank for 30 minutes while other calls go unanswered, the inevitable admin involvement and reports that follow the scene as well.

The idea of bank robberies is absolutely fine and I'd hate for us to remove another source of criminality from the server, but the current set-up and the meta surrounding it is really frustrating. I think there are a number of ways that you can flesh the bank robberies out and make them both a little more interesting and a little more role-play, for BOTH sides.

For me, it's not about criminals easier to catch or anything like that. I just get the vibe that too many of these encounters lead to both sides feeling pissed off and frustrated at the end of them. I'd rather not deal with it and maybe that's a me problem, but I doubt i'm alone in feeling this way.

[jameswilliam100]

28 minutes ago, Bala said:

I'll be completely honest, the two least things I personally enjoy getting involved in as a cop on the server are bank robberies and hostage situations, inevitably one leads to the other a ridiculous amount of times. From my point of view, it's fucking miserable. 

Whether it's select groups setting off the alarms like clock-work at a specific type every day, people taking their friends hostage, making unrealistic demands, all running off in different directions with packed money that takes ages to open, an entire group of police officers all huddled around one bank for 30 minutes while other calls go unanswered, the inevitable admin involvement and reports that follow the scene as well.

The idea of bank robberies is absolutely fine and I'd hate for us to remove another source of criminality from the server, but the current set-up and the meta surrounding it is really frustrating. I think there are a number of ways that you can flesh the bank robberies out and make them both a little more interesting and a little more role-play, for BOTH sides.

For me, it's not about criminals easier to catch or anything like that. I just get the vibe that too many of these encounters lead to both sides feeling pissed off and frustrated at the end of them. I'd rather not deal with it and maybe that's a me problem, but I doubt i'm alone in feeling this way.

I completely agree. We were trying to have fun and be fair. It supposed to be enjoyable for both sides.

[Victor Einhart]

Please tell me what you think the officers should do that doesn't involve just letting you go (which encourages hostage taking even more).

[ArcAngel]

Hello!

So, I interacted with you initially in this situation.

I understand your frustration with this situation. Being a criminal is very hard. 10x harder than legal characters. Robbing banks are the hardest part of the criminal side of RP so it stands to reason it would take lots of planning and so on. 

You stated you had backup plans and escape routes which is great. However you must have surmised to begin with the best course of action is to have a hostage because PD would take the life of the hostage seriously. You used this to your advantage.

Moving forward you should have maybe considered that once the hostage was safe you had no leverage, which left you open to hostile actions since you'd been holding an innocent civilian under gun point deeming you all dangerous.

In future it might be best for you to consider alternate ways for you to keep your leverage and allow your friends safe escape.

 

I've found that as a criminal you need to think 5 steps ahead because departments like PD would probably have well versed and practiced protocols for all situations so you'd need to think outside the box and be super smart and sneaky.

I would ask that you not view PD as power hungry, its not the case at all, I can speak on myself alone. However I share some frustrations of the same RP scenarios when it comes to bank robberies. 

I wish you the best of luck next time!

[Brasko]

2 minutes ago, arcangel said:

Hello!

So, I interacted with you initially in this situation.

I understand your frustration with this situation. Being a criminal is very hard. 10x harder than legal characters. Robbing banks are the hardest part of the criminal side of RP so it stands to reason it would take lots of planning and so on. 

You stated you had backup plans and escape routes which is great. However you must have surmised to begin with the best course of action is to have a hostage because PD would take the life of the hostage seriously. You used this to your advantage.

Moving forward you should have maybe considered that once the hostage was safe you had no leverage, which left you open to hostile actions since you'd been holding an innocent civilian under gun point deeming you all dangerous.

In future it might be best for you to consider alternate ways for you to keep your leverage and allow your friends safe escape.

 

I've found that as a criminal you need to think 5 steps ahead because departments like PD would probably have well versed and practiced protocols for all situations so you'd need to think outside the box and be super smart and sneaky.

I would ask that you not view PD as power hungry, its not the case at all, I can speak on myself alone. However I share some frustrations of the same RP scenarios when it comes to bank robberies. 

I wish you the best of luck next time!

i get what you mean we all just find the shooting at a car on a main street very unrealistic and also unnecessary especially when police cars are faster than most other cars in the city and also you are most likely going to catch us with 1 succesful pit as our engine would stall giving the police a really easy box opportunity. we all just feel a bit disheartned at the whole situation and feel it could of played out a total different way which would be fun for both parties.

 

[ArcAngel]

I understand what you're saying, however it was demanded the spike strips be removed which meant your tires couldn't be disabled and realistically speaking I'm not sure I agree you would have seen them being placed.

However think about it from a realistic and logical stand point. After holding a poor man hostage with large pistols, along with the clerks and stealing large quantities from a bank, would you not think to be met with hostile retaliation. 

I cannot speak for everyone else's intentions, however, I can speak on mine from other experiences, the tires were the target of gun fire to vastly disable or slow the vehicle.

There are other factors at play that you cannot see also. For example in real life at any given point there are helicopters available for use in severe situations such as this.

Should a helicopter not be available (which wouldn't really happen IRL) alternative measures have to be set in place to compensate for the lack there of. I.E high speed intersepting units, taking of tires and so on.

 

Like I said prior, when planning a bank robbery, which is high risk, especially this bank in particular due to its location, you really have to plan. I've seen 15+ people in this bank in on given situation get away before so it's all about the planning.

[Actualbears]

what were the dm rights on the hostage though?

[Osvaldon]

I do not think that the police officers did anything wrong, although, if you disagree, you can always make a forum report. The police force had invested a fair amount of time into the bank robbery and roleplaying with your group, the hostage had valued their life and had been cooperative throughout the whole scene and the police did not open fire on you or your associates while you had the hostage in your custody. However, once you had released the hostage there hadn't been any in-character leverage anymore and the police had more freedom to use lethal force against your group. I think that in such a situation, the police are supposed to value the life of hostages, but they also can't let armed criminals get away with a large amount of stolen bank money, so it seems unreasonable to think that they would allow you to get away safely, especially without a hostage.

I have been also thinking about different scenarios for this situation and I think there are a few more options here:
1. You could have negotiated to be permitted to take the hostage with you in the car and release them soon after at the agreed area or when out of sight of police cars.
2. You could have made some sacrifices (but at reduced risk) and asked for more than one vehicle and could have remained with the hostage, while allowing time for your other associates to take the bank money and get away with one of those cars, then verify that over the radio.
3. You could have placed one or more scouts to watch over the area and try to flee in multiple directions as soon as the scouts had alerted you of approaching police vehicles. It is not necessary to start a hostage situation, but if you decide to do it, the chances of getting away are not that great.

It looks to me like the main argument here is that it would have been more fun for your group, if the police had let go of you (at least at the start), while I can't argue with the fact that it would have been more fun for your group to get a nice car chase (or even get away), I can argue that the idea itself is not reasonable for such a scenario as the police are not supposed to let the criminals get away with a crime, they're just doing their job and what is expected from them.

I'd also like to add that you can't compare ECLIPSE ROLEPLAY with NO PIXEL as RAGE MULTIPLAYER servers are more reliant on player counts to keep the world alive while FIVEM offers much lower player limits that are compensated by sophisticated NPC systems and the population differences make it much more difficult to moderate the whole server, furthermore, NO PIXEL is a strictly moderated streamer haven and streamers tend to play and behave in a way, that would produce great content for their viewers, it's their real life job and you can't expect the same standards or behavior from hundreds of players playing individually for their own pleasure as well.

[Softas]

Stupid robbers thats all. You let the hostage away you loose your leverage the heck did you expect to happen?

[Jett_J]

Seems to be a huge problem on eclipse.

People make this game competitive and focus on winning. They don't care about making it a fun thing for everyone.

[ArcAngel]

1 minute ago, Jett_J said:

Seems to be a huge problem on eclipse.

People make this game competitive and focus on winning. They don't care about making it a fun thing for everyone.

This is a very generalised opinion, it's sad that you have had bad experiences to make you feel this way.
Moving forward maybe constructive ideas and suggestions would help improve gameplay for everyone.

[Xoza]

Greetings,

If you have a suggestion you would like to offer further to help improve your experiences, please visit our Suggestions Section.

As for the activities of the officers, I was an officer on scene myself, and I wasn't happy about certain actions from the officers, however that remains internal to the faction and IC. Bank About 12% of bank robberies have been successful and takes a lot of organization to accomplish. The more organized you are, the more successful. 

Thanks.

[Jett_J]

2 minutes ago, Xoza said:

Greetings,

If you have a suggestion you would like to offer further to help improve your experiences, please visit our Suggestions Section.

As for the activities of the officers, I was an officer on scene myself, and I wasn't happy about certain actions from the officers, however that remains internal to the faction and IC. Bank About 12% of bank robberies have been successful and takes a lot of organization to accomplish. The more organized you are, the more successful. 

Thanks.

To be honest I'm not sure there is any suggestion that could fix it.

In my opinion it just seems to be the behavior that the Eclipse community has adopted.

I think it sprouts from money being really hard to make for the average person unless you put in the same amount of hours that a full-time employee does at an IRL job. Since everyone works really hard for the money they make, they don't want to lose their stuff (Now this isn't really relevant to this bank robbery exactly since PD doesn't really have to worry about losing their stuff), but it does lead to situations that happy constantly where people rule-play Fear RP rules or DM rules etc. to ensure they win. (Usually always trying to be the first to  pull a gun knowing they can utilize FearRP and win the situation.)

I don't believe this can be fixed because you can't simply "raise wages" because everything in eclipse is player-owned so the market will adjust to the inflation. It's just the way the server has been built.

 

[jameswilliam100]

This is the last time I will reply to this thread becuase no one is willing to budge either way, you either agree with what happened or you dont. 

 

First of all, we dont really give a fuck anymore and have moved to a FiveM server focusing more on RP, so I dont have any interest in debating much longer but the stubborn side of me feels like a few things need clarified.

 

Very few of you have understood the crux of this post. We UNDERSTAND we lost and the reasons why that happened, stop mentioning it - I dont think anyone here is really that stupid that needs to be told again.

 

"You gave up leverage", "You let the hostage go" ; yeah no shit sherlock. What fun would having a stalemate be for either side? What fun is making unreasonable demands? Our intentions were to HAVE FUN, not just for us but, everyone involved. If anyone said they had fun from an RP standpoint in that , they are lying or have a low threshold for fun. The RP was shit, it didnt exist. Simply watch the video it is there in black and white.  If you disagree, go watch a Nopixel bank robbery. 

 

"You cant compare Eclipse to Nopixel" - Ehmm.. Of course you can. Its an RP server for the game of GTA V, its literally a like for like comparison. Any argument otherwise is probably moot and being pedantic. Why am I choosing that for comparison - it is fun and entertaining for all parties involved and thats what all servers should strive to be. There is a reason it is so succesful and its not hard to understand why. I am not talking about the massive streamers, even way prior to the hype (im talking 2+ years ago)  the server was the best in the buissness when it came to content and entertainment. My advise to whoever has the power for change is to take a close look at that server and what it does right and try to replicate that. Its about people having fun and they have cracked it. The people there CARE about the story of their characters and its developtment, unlike here and thats the difference.

 

The police broke several rules during the robbery also (i will not list them all) , they didnt value the hostages life as much as their own (they are supposed to) which is evident from not complying to demands PRIOR to the release of the hostage. They couldnt predict the outcome and upon us hitting the spikes we would realise this and could have killed him. They opened fire with civilians onlooking. There was no imediate threat to life. Nevermind the officers ruinning up to 4 armed robbers- suicide mission if it was IRL; which is where a key flaw with the servers is highlighted. Where is the line between realism and gaming because to the commuity and even the staff it is a very blurred line, at least from my perspective as a player. There is cherry picking everywhere to whats not allowed and what flys under the radar. Do X and youre reported for non-realistic RP, Report someone for Y and its "it is a game and not supopsed to be real life"; even when X and Y are extremely close in nature. I understand that its really difficulty to articulately put a distinction out there, giving the size of the player base and I dont know what I would do to fix it if I were in your shoes but, the line needs to be clearer or people are going to get upset when they are told they broke a rule when they thought they did not and vice versa. 

 

Furthermore, the "Save PoV" meta is TOXIC as fuck. The constant reporting... The constant arguments and fall-outs. This is a very big issue with the server. Yet again, its a large server and its hard to manage I understand that but from my perspective as a player ( I think I speak on behalf of most of them ) it is really really not fun. It is inhibiting RP and making people think twice before doing something that would be hilarious or adrenaline inducing. Even with this post, several people have commented that I should make a report if I am not happy? I dont want someone to be banned or waste the moderators time? The answer is not to make a report every time something bad happens, that will not change what happened. There needs to be a pro-active approach not a reactive one. 

 

It just the way the server is now.  I havent came across many who care about the RP and making a good story or adventure. All anyone cares about are themselves and securing/promoting their characters assets. I know that isnt everyone but its most. Anyone who doesnt fit the description probably wont last long in the server when their Rp needs arent being met.

 

Its criminals v cops and they both couldnt care less about each other. Its too serious, which is why we have moved city unfortunetely. Actually now I think about it, every single person I played with about 2 months ago has left also and I am not being dramatic, literally about 15 people. I go online and check the user list and I know about 7 people when I used to know about 80.The 7 people I do know all have very high Exp and probably suffer from sunk cost fallacy. The server clearly must have a high turnover rate and its obvious why. 

 

I would ramble on forever if I thought it would make any real change.

 

1) Theres too much OOC. It should be almost banned to maintain immerson. Everyone keeps saying its a serious RP server- if thats in relation to real life then defo, if in relation to serious RP then defo not and its the latter that is important ! 

2) Theres a toxic save PoV/reporting meta.

3) The 'cops v robbers' mentality. Guys, you are all humans and all in there to have fun. Be nice to each other and have FUN interactions. Also, anyone who is an officer who says that they are all nice and want to have good RP is bias. Probably close to half of my interactions with the officers have been unfriendly (almost hostile) in nature and not fun , whether I am acting as a criminal or not.  Actually, I watched a video the other day made by the golbins possibly on youtuve that highlighted the issue well (also some admin bias/corruption possibly) when talking about crime v cop relationship. Go youtube it its easy to find. If you put the people behind the characters in a room or a discord , from each side, they would not be friends or get along.  Theres a hostile mentality which needs to be fixed. 

4) I would say there is too much second voice. it ruins immersion. 

 

These points are BROAD ones, I know not everythign applies to everyone okay but it applies to far more of the community than it should.

 

Peace out 

 

Edit: Spawning in the lambo for the extremely unlikely chase that would never happen becuase we stood no chance of making it 100metres anyway highlights the WE MUST BEAT THEM mentality that exists OOC. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by jameswilliam100

[Nex]

@jameswilliam100 I've been around for a bit over 1 week and I already can aknowledge all the points you made as true.

I expected a better RP experience.

If you go at piers more than half of the text chat is in OOC. And it's anoying as fk.

Even better..check reports section..I've seen people reporting others using OOC and PM system to get info that should have been IC.

Crim and Police both do it.

But no one want's to change anything.....because good RP sometimes means taking a loss....and they don't like that.

Everyone has something to prove around here and it shows.... Sadly in doing so...making the RP experience worse for everyone.

 

[Victor Einhart]

21 hours ago, Jett_J said:

lead to situations that happy constantly where people rule-play Fear RP rules or DM rules etc. to ensure they win

Such as people waiting for someone to walk into a bank so they can be taken hostage. Or ignoring the hostage rules altogether. It goes both ways.

I have asked @jameswilliam100 what he thought the officers should have done in an effort to see if anything can be done to improve things because I'm in a position to actually make change. Like usual, I was ignored.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Victor Einhart

[Nex]

@Victor Einhart

I'm not him ....but if police were to gradually increase the pressure by sending more police force....not having all hands on deck from the start.

Example. In this case. 

Have only 3-4 police cars at start. 

With the engine stalling at the slightest contact this shouldn't be an issue.

Have only 3-4 cars chase them down. While only trying to get in front of him and stopping them that way.

After 3-4 minutes increase the number of police cars. While still trying to stop them the same way. Bring air support if needed.

If the chase goes down for another 2 minutes..bring in special vehicles and allow ramming.

Following the basic design of GTA V is a good ideea and it would work for both parties.

The chase is fun and adrenaline inducing for everyone participating.

Bringing 9 police cars at start + supercar , Kamachos , Ramming vehicles.

That is going to make the case only interesting for the police for about 2-3 minutes...until inevitably the bad guys would be caught.It would end up in frustration since crims try to put effort in bank robberies just to be crushed by brute force. With 0 tactic involved from the police.

[CaesarSeizure]

How are we supposed to know how many people are at a bank robbery to send an appropriate response?

[Nex]

6 minutes ago, CaesarSeizure said:

How are we supposed to know how many people are at a bank robbery to send an appropriate response?

By the number of cars they have prepared for escape ?
More crim cars = more police cars

All of this can be handled in the negotiation phase. And the police can send forces based on that intel.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Nex

[CaesarSeizure]

10 minutes ago, Nex said:

By the number of cars they have prepared for escape ?
More crim cars = more police cars

All of this can be handled in the negotiation phase. And the police can send forces based on that intel.

95% of the time, escape vehicles are hidden. PD responds to bank alarms as they ring and it takes time to evaluate a situation. Sometimes it will be 1 person just triggering the alarm while other times 12 people will run outside as PD arrives.

It is completely unreasonable to stagger response just so the 1 unit that arrives can get shot by 10 people inside the bank.

[Nex]

@CaesarSeizure
This could be handled nicely by the police IC...Helicopter can come and scout from the air and give info to ground units.
3-4 cars should be enough for this.
At least 2 cars should keep eye on the bank. While the whole process of a robbery can take some time.
The other 2 cop cars can scout around and gather info.
Based on the info they gather from ground and air ...additional officers can be called depending on the situation. If there are suspicious vehicles around etc.
If negotiated ...air support / spikes can be briefly removed for the start of the chase. To give them free passage

Also in the negotiation phase cops can impose that free passage can only be given for 1 vehicle that the guys in the bank are.
And all other vehicles that interfere would be met with bruteforce.

But instead , you have 10 units sitting around for half an hour pointing their guns at a door.
 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Nex

[Asiantator]

58 minutes ago, Nex said:

But instead , you have 10 units sitting around for half an hour pointing their guns at a door.
 

So a normal, realistic response? I have been back on the server this side of 2 months. responded to dozens of bank robbery calls and do you want to know how many still had the robbers there when we arrived? 2. A majority of the time those alarms trip and the robbers immediately leave. Those 2 times we arrived and the robbers were actually there? They got away 1 of those 2 times.

 

Now knowing this, a standard, realistic response to a robbery would be all available units would respond.

1 hour ago, Nex said:

This could be handled nicely by the police IC...Helicopter can come and scout from the air and give info to ground units.
3-4 cars should be enough for this.

 

What happens if there isn't a helicopter available? What then. Do we switch to another contingency? How many of these plans do we need to memorize? Do I need another one if we find a dozen bikes outside? What if its a single clown car? You cannot expect people here to memorize dozens of contingencies to a situation when this isn't their job, nor are they getting paid for it. The policies in place to combat unrealistic RP I feel are sufficient enough. 

 

 

Yes this is a game, and some people treat it as such. But you cannot expect to play this as a game and have other have to treat it like a job. For every 3 hours I patrol I have to spend an hour writing up fake paperwork. While yes, I don't have to, I want to get that promotion quickly. I already spend 10-12 hours a day working my real job and attending college full time. You cannot expect those of us with a life and kids to spend more hours in a game learning dozens of contingencies plans for each situation, spending hours practicing those contingencies, then sitting around when we see a 911 call about a bank robbery because we are unsure whether or not a helicopter is available to check out the area, or whether there are already 3 units on scene. Or even being the first unit scouting out the bank to inform dispatch if its real or not, just to get blasted by 7 dudes rocking AKs. Proportional response only works in real life, where people ACTUALLY care about their lives, not fear of retribution through an admin punishment.

[Nex]

30 minutes ago, Asiantator said:

Now knowing this, a standard, realistic response to a robbery would be all available units would respond.

What happens if there isn't a helicopter available? What then. Do we switch to another contingency? How many of these plans do we need to memorize? Do I need another one if we find a dozen bikes outside? What if its a single clown car? You cannot expect people here to memorize dozens of contingencies to a situation when this isn't their job, nor are they getting paid for it. The policies in place to combat unrealistic RP I feel are sufficient enough. 

 

You cannot expect those of us with a life and kids to spend more hours in a game learning dozens of contingencies plans for each situation, spending hours practicing those contingencies, then sitting around when we see a 911 call about a bank robbery because we are unsure whether or not a helicopter is available to check out the area, or whether there are already 3 units on scene. 

In a "realistic response" you wouldn't have all units in a city surrounding a bank. Trying to make it too realistic will ruin the gameplay for everyone.
All available units in a real life situation doesn't mean the same thing as it means  in GTA V. 

"dozens of contingencies" . That just sounds like you want the police to do a lazy job in tackling bank robberies.

If you don't want to invest time into developing your cop character and getting experience with numerous situations....I'm not going to say anything as it would be negative :).
RP experience shouldn't revolve around and change based on how much time you have to dedicate to developing your character.

But I feel like we are going off topic and making this more personal than it needs to be.

The point that I strongly agree with you is that crims will use AKS to shoot down cops like lives mean nothing. But this applies to cops as well.
That seems to be the predominant mentality around the city....it looks like lives don't weight too much in eyes the of people...if only this changed it would be a better RP experience overall for everyone.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Nex

[tylxrrr]

2 hours ago, Nex said:

By the number of cars they have prepared for escape ?
More crim cars = more police cars

All of this can be handled in the negotiation phase. And the police can send forces based on that intel.

When I did bank robberies with some people, we always hid our vehicles.

[Nex]

Just now, tylxrrr said:

When I did bank robberies with some people, we always hid our vehicles.

Most of the issues can be dealt with in the negotiation phase... people just need to give reasonable demands.
And plan out around them...also being ready for some of them demands that are exaggerated not to be fulfilled.