We Just Tried to Rob a Bank. It was the most fun- until it wasnt.

[tylxrrr]

1 minute ago, Nex said:

Most of the issues can be dealt with in the negotiation phase... people just need to give reasonable demands.
And plan out around them...also being ready for some of them demands that are exaggerated not to be fulfilled.

But you said only 3-4 police cars initially which I am assuming is before the negotiation phase. Also, a lot of people who do bank robberies don't negotiate. Rather, they try and leave before polices comes or kill them. So, if 3-4 police cars show up, they will probably be given demands and killed. Unless...someone wants to negotiate which isn't wise, but probably more RP.

[Nex]

3 minutes ago, tylxrrr said:

But you said only 3-4 police cars initially which I am assuming is before the negotiation phase. Also, a lot of people who do bank robberies don't negotiate. Rather, they try and leave before polices comes or kill them. So, if 3-4 police cars show up, they will probably be given demands and killed. Unless...someone wants to negotiate which isn't wise, but probably more RP.

That ties in to my point I made above. That no one in the city takes lives as serious as they should.
Both good and bad characters should put more price on a life. 
The main goal for everyone should be ...making it out alive to be able to see the next day.
But instead everyone is puling a gun and shooting one another like its a CS:GO match.

[CaesarSeizure]

14 minutes ago, Nex said:

Most of the issues can be dealt with in the negotiation phase... 

Most of the time, there is no negotiation phase as people are either surrendering or running away. 

[Nex]

1 minute ago, CaesarSeizure said:

Most of the time, there is no negotiation phase as people are either surrendering or running away. 

We are not talking about those cases tho ?
I'm saying specifically in this case that started the thread and similar ones...where there would be negotiation going on.
 

[tylxrrr]

12 minutes ago, Nex said:

That ties in to my point I made above. That no one in the city takes lives as serious as they should.
Both good and bad characters should put more price on a life. 
The main goal for everyone should be ...making it out alive to be able to see the next day.
But instead everyone is puling a gun and shooting one another like its a CS:GO match.

I mean shooting cops to escape a bank robbery is taking a life seriously. Realistically, having illegal guns and robbing a bank, you would be in prison for years. Furthermore, prison is dangerous and you could be killed in there as well. 

EDIT: Even if you make it through prison, imagine the effects on your mental health. Although you wouldn't die, mental health could ruin your life.

If you think about it that way, killing cops is in a way showing care for your life.

For the cops side, well...Police are a reactionary force and want to keep the public safe. If you point guns at innocent citizens, well you are likely to do it again. You may even kill someone. If the police kill you there, they may be saving an innocent life from being taken by you.

If you think about it that way, killing criminals is in a way showing care for innocent people's lives.

Don't you agree?

Edited May 19, 2021 by tylxrrr
Additional reason

[Nex]

@tylxrrr
I keep giving you some kind of solution , you keep countering with ways to make the RP gameplay too serious and unfun.

It just looks like people want to change stuff without putting any effort behind it.

The point I was making about who shoots who. And putting more price on a life.

Is that both parties should try to mitigate the situation in order to avoid a shootout.
Because no matter who shoots first...and bullets start flying there's no guarantee that you will make it out alive. And so it should be in everyone's interest to avoid that. Both bad and good characters.
Treating this more like an RP server and not a deathmatch server.

That's what I mean by taking any lives seriously.

To imagine the point I'm making better...Try to put yourself in a bank robbery scenario. No matter what side.
Just imagine that if you died. Your character would be deleted and everything you done was lost.
And you'd have to start all over again from 0. With no contacts , help etc.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Nex

[Cyrus Raven]

On 5/16/2021 at 11:56 PM, jameswilliam100 said:

What followed were what seemed like fair and honest negotiations which was all good RP. We negotiated fair passage (universally accepeted across all servers as allowed to leave the bank unharmed in a functioning vehicle)

I haven't had much time to read through the rest of the replies, but I would not mind seeing bank robbers that have hostages able to negotiate this ''free passage'', as mentioned in a lot of RP servers, both in GTA and other types of roleplay games, this is accepted as a term that essentially means the criminals will be given a chance to get in a vehicle and leave without getting shot, spiked or otherwise physically interrupted. 

Now, I'm not saying we should just expect PD/SD to let people get away, but this is a game at the end of the day, getting a hostage and going through a bank robbery is something that takes time to do and usually means a lot of risk involved, this creates a situation for PD/SD to have something more to do then the usual traffic stops, etc... In essence, they are fun! 

Thus, my suggestion would be, whether through OOC or IC means, start keeping your end of the bargain when it comes to negotiations, if someone negotiated for free passage and they gave the hostage then LET them through, the millisecond they start driving without being stopped you can then initiate pursuit. Any PD/SD officer in charge of these bank robberies should technically still hold the advantage, you can set up XRAY for the pursuit, get HSMU/HSIU ready, ask some GOB to block off common tunnels, etc.. In all other aspects PD/SD would still likely have the tactical advantage and all that would be ''given up'' would be the ability to shoot someone or their car, or otherwise physically prevent them from leaving IF a ''safe passage'' has been agreed upon. Obviously, safe passage probably wouldn't apply for situations where bank robbers have no bargain chip (AKA no hostages).

 

Idk, I've been to plenty of bank situations and other hostage situations and there were sometimes where it didn't sit right with me that we could just open up on people. Were we IC'ly/OOC'ly justified ? Sure, but I also get the need to add an element of ''fairness'' given that this is a game, people are risking a lot  and a good faith effort was done to RP well and use a hostage the way it is meant to be used, as chip to trade in negotiations. 

[Ahmed Abraham]

Hostage RP doesn't exist here. DM rule prevents you taking action against the hostage if cops fail to meet your reasonable demands. Cops fail to display fear rp - I have seen two outcomes of a hostage situation. The first ended with the cops using a sniper to line up a shot on the mans head despite being EXTREMELY close to the hostage. There's an emphasis on 'realism' but if we look at wind and other factors, that shot would have never been taken. It was the complete opposite of RP. The second ended with cops planning to blast the suspect when he stepped away from the hostage. What happened was the cops sprayed him down from several different angles with the hostage close by . The same issues from the first scenario applies to this. Once you lose your leverage, cops take action immediately because it's "realistic" and what should be done. There is zero focus on fun and understanding that we are playing a game.

Cyrus above me summed it up well.

Cops should still have a slight advantage but don't simply shutdown this type of RP because you gotta win to save the city.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Ahmed Abraham
Added additional info

[Victor Einhart]

12 hours ago, Nex said:

@Victor Einhart

I'm not him ....but if police were to gradually increase the pressure by sending more police force....not having all hands on deck from the start.

Example. In this case. 

Have only 3-4 police cars at start. 

With the engine stalling at the slightest contact this shouldn't be an issue.

Have only 3-4 cars chase them down. While only trying to get in front of him and stopping them that way.

After 3-4 minutes increase the number of police cars. While still trying to stop them the same way. Bring air support if needed.

If the chase goes down for another 2 minutes..bring in special vehicles and allow ramming.

Following the basic design of GTA V is a good ideea and it would work for both parties.

The chase is fun and adrenaline inducing for everyone participating.

Bringing 9 police cars at start + supercar , Kamachos , Ramming vehicles.

That is going to make the case only interesting for the police for about 2-3 minutes...until inevitably the bad guys would be caught.It would end up in frustration since crims try to put effort in bank robberies just to be crushed by brute force. With 0 tactic involved from the police.

Long story short... we have had extensive experience responding to these and they are extremely dangerous calls. "All hands on deck" is required when we know there is a good chance of 3-4 units will be overwhelmed and killed on a call like this. People rob banks with their biggest guns, and responding with 3-4 officers is more or less suicide when we don't know exactly how many people are inside. In this case it was 3, but it could have been 30. We don't know that until we're on scene, and we don't know how many people are hiding in the vault so even if we only see a couple people in the lobby, there could be a crowd inside there that we don't know about.

You're saying LSPD should fundamentally disrespect the level of violence that's been shown in bank robberies in the past. We bring such a level of force because experience has taught us we need to prepare for a gigantic firefight and we aren't going to sacrifice a couple officers just to gauge if the people robbing the bank are serious or not about fighting us.

I'm all for people following a hostage to their car, the robbers getting into the car, and then driving away. I'm never going to let people take a hostage with them, because all this does is continue the situation because then we have to follow you to try and get the hostage back safely. If hostage takers offered a reasonable compromise to start a pursuit away from the bank and leaving hostage behind safely, I'm all for that.

In this particular case, the hostage takers made a very serious error and let the hostage go before they were all in the car. That's their fault for not planning their escape and not checking to see if there was a spike strip.

The problem is, most hostage takers don't offer a reasonable solution to the situation. I've had hostage takers ask me if I thought the Assistant Chief had a fat ass while I'm trying to take their demands seriously. That's a waste of my time. Why should I take them seriously after something like that? Pretty much every hostage situation I've been in is extremely stupid with people laughing and making jokes at me instead of thinking of the situation as life and death and trying their best to survive another day.

I don't like how OP's situation was handled, but if people want to be taken seriously going forward, they need to take the situation seriously too. That also means following the DM rule, and also not ruleplaying by waiting for someone to walk into a Fleeca for the sole reason of trying to get a leg up on PD.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Victor Einhart

[Brasko]

14 minutes ago, Ahmed Abraham said:

Hostage RP doesn't exist here. DM rule prevents you taking action against the hostage if cops fail to meet your reasonable demands. Cops fail to display fear rp - I have seen two outcomes of a hostage situation. The first ended with the cops using a sniper to line up a shot on the mans head despite being EXTREMELY close to the hostage. There's an emphasis on 'realism' but if we look at wind and other factors, that shot would have never been taken. It was the complete opposite of RP. The second ended with cops planning to blast the suspect when he stepped away from the hostage. What happened was the cops sprayed him down from several different angles with the hostage close by . The same issues from the first scenario applies to this. Once you lose your leverage, cops take action immediately because it's "realistic" and what should be done. There is zero focus on fun and understanding that we are playing a game.

Cyrus above me summed it up well.

Cops should still have a slight advantage but don't simply shutdown this type of RP because you gotta win to save the city.

i was one of the robbers and people just keep saying 'of course there not just gonna let you get away for free' or you gave up the hostage what do you expect to happen but even before we gave the hostage up the police had already hidden a spike strip infront of our car and then continued to shoot constantly at a car with no wheels. none of us as robbers were asking for or expecting to just be allowed to get away because we had a hostage we just simply thought that there would be some sort of fun chase involved for everyone no matter if we got caught or got away. Even if a police chase had happened, tht police are still at a massive advantage of catching us because of the way the car engines work in this server, 1 succesful pit from a police car would've rendered our car completley useless and we would be forced to surrender after that but we stood a 0% chance of even thinking about escaping after that went down the way it did, it was just completley unnecassary.

[Brasko]

5 minutes ago, Victor Einhart said:

Long story short... we have had extensive experience responding to these and they are extremely dangerous calls. "All hands on deck" is required if we know there is a good chance of 3-4 units being overwhelmed and killed on a call like this. People rob banks with their biggest guns, and responding with 3-4 officers is more or less suicide when we don't know exactly how many people are inside. In this case it was 3, but it could have been 30. We don't know that until we're on scene, and we don't know how many people are hiding in the vault so even if we only see a couple people in the lobby, there could be a crowd inside there that we don't know about.

You're saying LSPD should fundamentally disrespect the level of violence that's been shown in bank robberies in the past. We bring such a level of force because experience has taught us we need to prepare for a gigantic firefight and we aren't going to sacrifice a couple officers just to gauge if the people robbing the bank are serious or not about fighting us.

I'm all for people following a hostage to their car, the robbers getting into the car, and then driving away. I'm never going to let people take a hostage with them, because all this does is continue the situation because then we have to follow you to try and get the hostage back safely. If hostage takers offered a reasonable compromise to start a pursuit away from the bank and leaving hostage behind safely, I'm all for that.

In this particular case, the hostage takers made a very serious error and let the hostage go before they were all in the car. That's their fault for not planning their escape and not checking to see if there was a spike strip.

The problem is, most hostage takers don't offer a reasonable solution to the situation. I've had hostage takers ask me if I thought the Assistant Chief had a fat ass while I'm trying to take their demands seriously. That's a waste of my time. Why should I take them seriously after something like that? Pretty much every hostage situation I've been in is extremely stupid with people laughing and making jokes at me instead of thinking of the situation as life and death and trying their best to survive another day.

I don't like how OP's situation was handled, but if people want to be taken seriously going forward, they need to take the situation seriously too. That also means following the DM rule and not ruleplaying by waiting for someone to walk into a Fleeca for the sole reason of trying to get a leg up on PD.

im not sure it would happen but an admin could just make a rule that you are only allowed to rob a bank with a certain amount of people, this would fix most of what you just spoke about in my opinion

[Nex]

@Victor Einhart

"Long story short... we have had extensive experience responding to these and they are extremely dangerous calls. "All hands on deck" is required if we know there is a good chance of 3-4 units being overwhelmed and killed on a call like this."

Because it just seems like violence is not moderated at all. Violence is met with more violence.... I think that's how things escalated so much around here. Just my inexperienced opinion ...

If there was an even playing field from the start it wouldn't have gotten this bad.

[IAmTurtle]

16 hours ago, Nex said:

Because it just seems like violence is not moderated at all. Violence is met with more violence.... I think that's how things escalated so much around here. Just my inexperienced opinion ...

Pd is a reactionary force. So the more violent crims are the more violent and aggressive we have to be. 

 

 

[Nex]

2 minutes ago, IAmTurtle said:

Pd is a reactionary force. So the more violent crims are the more violent and aggressive we have to be. 

 

 

That was exactly my point .... and both crims / police will try to top each other. If people had rocket launchers they would use them.
But like I said in my other posts.. If people valued life more ....things wouldn't have gotten like this. At the end of the day the OOC mentality that's just a game and I'll be ok no matter what...will come forward.

My argument was that everyone should try to avoid shootouts as much as they can .... crims / pd both.

I'll just copy paste what I said before:

"Is that both parties should try to mitigate the situation in order to avoid a shootout.
Because no matter who shoots first...and bullets start flying there's no guarantee that you will make it out alive. And so it should be in everyone's interest to avoid that. Both bad and good characters.
Treating this more like an RP server and not a deathmatch server."


But I doubt the current mentality that is dominant on this server will change. At the end of the day everyone wants a win no matter what...and they will shoot someone easily to get that.

[Stew Walker]

On 5/17/2021 at 11:30 PM, arcangel said:

Hello!

So, I interacted with you initially in this situation.

I understand your frustration with this situation. Being a criminal is very hard. 10x harder than legal characters. Robbing banks are the hardest part of the criminal side of RP so it stands to reason it would take lots of planning and so on. 

You stated you had backup plans and escape routes which is great. However you must have surmised to begin with the best course of action is to have a hostage because PD would take the life of the hostage seriously. You used this to your advantage.

Moving forward you should have maybe considered that once the hostage was safe you had no leverage, which left you open to hostile actions since you'd been holding an innocent civilian under gun point deeming you all dangerous.

In future it might be best for you to consider alternate ways for you to keep your leverage and allow your friends safe escape.

 

I've found that as a criminal you need to think 5 steps ahead because departments like PD would probably have well versed and practiced protocols for all situations so you'd need to think outside the box and be super smart and sneaky.

I would ask that you not view PD as power hungry, its not the case at all, I can speak on myself alone. However I share some frustrations of the same RP scenarios when it comes to bank robberies. 

I wish you the best of luck next time!

This isnt necessarily true, I was shot as a hostage by officers in a bank heist on 5/12 ... 

 

[TheCactus]

We can't deny that a lot of the people here play to win and it is disgusting. They take the frustration OOC when they lose and hate certain factions because of I C reasons.

That's is exactly what you are doing now. You played it badly, got arrested for it and now the server is not enjoyable anymore. When you lost sight of the hostage, the cops still decided go let you in the car and take off. If you had other vehicles set up 1/2 Kms from the bank, a plan B, you could've extended the chase or got away.

You want people to behave like RP-ing is their job but you aren't looking at yourself. The arrogance in your thread reaches the stars.

[Lipq]

I'm always glad to see a post which highlights the issues within the server, yet I always get disappointed reading these threads as any well written, good posts are always met with a mentality that supports the writers play style.

The "ThIs iSnT ReALiStIc" bullshit is fucking tedious, normally backed by some link from a similar irl case and as you have stated, this is a game and it should be treated more like a game, when I log on to a roleplay server I want to seek interesting RP interaction and opportunities, live out a criminal fantasy and get the adrenaline rush from being chased by the police at no IRL risk, yet if I put in effort in to my RP and try to RP a scenario, I get shut down by an unstoppable force which comes full fist up my asshole, ruining any chance at a good gameplay experience.

The truth currently is that apart from spamming /me's and /do's there actually nothing to do on the server once you pass the 200 hours mark, don't get me wrong however, as for me personally, the first 200 hours were fun and i feel that the server is great to start getting the hang of RP, but once you pass the stage of learning everything it just becomes a monotonous grind fest and the grind (for criminals) is really only to go pew pew pew at your opposing gang because that's all the fun that is really available and if you really wanted to grind for assets that you may lose during gameplay then you may as well just go play Escape From Tarkov instead. This lack of things to do has caused many of my favorite people as well as myself to quit, as fishing at the pier was literally the most interesting content the server had (in my oppinion)

Eclipse claims to be a high standard roleplay server, yet the standards, aren't seen, and the amount of poor roleplayers, from all factions is crazy, I understand that RAGEMP servers survive of off player counts but the knowledge required to join eclipse is piss poor, you can legitimately copy and paste things from the rule book in to your application and you will be accepted, which multiple people have done, and it is abundantly clear when you encounter any new player, who has no concept of what the rules actually are, which was the case for me when i first joined, I got in without even understanding how to properly use /me's and /do's or what the rules really are. The level of entry should be raised, so that a community of responsible role players can develop, allowing less restricting rules, and higher standards of rp, and honestly, if people abuse any loopholes, or any rule changes just fucking get rid of them, they clearly aren't any good anyways.

[Denza]

As a current LEO in the server I have to heavily disagree with everyone saying that the action taken to open fire on the individuals as they were fleeing is reasonable. 

Realistically you would have pedestrian traffic and vehicular traffic, not even considering the appartment buildings and entrances that are in the distance. You would risk all of those civilian lives in a realistic scenario (which supposedly the server and the department are striving for). As mentioned, there was no immediate risk of life, and discharging firearms in such a way is negligent and DOES risk lives of not only officers on the scene risking crossfire (which did happen in the past, MANY times), as well as possible civilians driving past / walking past. I seriously want someone to explain to me how THAT part is in any way how a police department would respond without receiving heavy backlash from the public and media.

[Victor Einhart]

7 hours ago, Denza said:

Realistically you would have pedestrian traffic and vehicular traffic

Do you think officers would "realistically" allow pedestrians to walk into the line of fire in a situation like this? The area is clearly blocked off in the video and no one is around. During situations like this LSPD gives loud and constant instructions to leave so people that aren't involved aren't at risk which is why officers get so angry when people run into a crime scene.  If you have suggestions about how to handle situations like these that doesn't encourage people to take hostages (i.e. making it profitable to do so) I will be glad to read your well thought out reply.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Victor Einhart

[tylxrrr]

7 hours ago, Denza said:

Realistically you would have pedestrian traffic and vehicular traffic

I'm sorry but IRL if a bank was being robbed and hella cops were around, there is no way imma be walkin down the street. I ain't tryna get shot. Plus, I am sure realistically it would be blocked off and nearby residents evacuated. I would definitely be at home watching it on the news though. 

yall movin different if you walkin or drivin near a bank robbery

[Wraithz]

disgusting behaviour from the police.

poor rp.

[Denza]

2 hours ago, Victor Einhart said:

Do you think officers would "realistically" allow pedestrians to walk into the line of fire in a situation like this? The area is clearly blocked off in the video and no one is around

It was secure until it wasnt. The scene was not secure at the exact moment the barricade went down and the vehicle had a straight opening to safety. The road ahead was not cordoned off, and scene management wasnt done in that area which is understandable considering the number units youve had. But then that begs the question. Why did officers open fire at individuals who at that point posed no immediate threat to life, in the direction of an area that was not secure. 

[Ahmed Abraham]

21 minutes ago, Denza said:

It was secure until it wasnt. The scene was not secure at the exact moment the barricade went down and the vehicle had a straight opening to safety. The road ahead was not cordoned off, and scene management wasnt done in that area which is understandable considering the number units youve had. But then that begs the question. Why did officers open fire at individuals who at that point posed no immediate threat to life, in the direction of an area that was not secure. 

You made excellent points. People will choose to critique one point that may argue in their favour but not congratulate you on the other issues that you made clear.

[Denza]

3 hours ago, tylxrrr said:

I'm sorry but IRL if a bank was being robbed and hella cops were around, there is no way imma be walkin down the street. I ain't tryna get shot. Plus, I am sure realistically it would be blocked off and nearby residents evacuated. 

Unfortunately people are stupid and are attracted to tragedy and action, not everyone thinks the same way as you do. (I too would get my ass out of dodge if I saw shit going down in front of me. 

[tylxrrr]

6 minutes ago, Denza said:

Unfortunately people are stupid and are attracted to tragedy and action, not everyone thinks the same way as you do. (I too would get my ass out of dodge if I saw shit going down in front of me. 

facts. you right though. There would be someone who try to get close.