PD's Holding cell RP

[SteakHappy]

Just now, PufferBulletin said:

You're trying to make a joke, but to make a good arrest report that will stand in a court takes 10-30 minutes depending on how complicated is the case. 

Stupid take.

Well that just quite literally isn't true. Even if it was, it is rare to see a detailed arrest report.

[David Coast]

1 minute ago, PufferBulletin said:

You're trying to make a joke, but to make a good arrest report that will stand in a court takes 10-30 minutes depending on how complicated is the case. 

Stupid take.

I've been apart of factions that create arrests report, I've been apart of factions that suppress arrest reports. Sure, if a case is complicated then it might take a while, but most of the arrest reports are plain and simple (as it should be written). I don't really understand your point of "standing in court". 

[Aldarine]

56 minutes ago, SkyeFuryy said:

I think there would be more issues with /detain as an idea than pros. My main concern is what happens if the 10-15's gang affiliates manage to liberate them? What happens to the timer? etc etc.

We simply can't cater to everyone at the same time and realistically. IRL the investigation happens whilst the suspect is on bail or in custody. They don't serve a prison sentence even if they're in custody. Here, you are asking us to do something that IRL they are allowed 48 hours before sentencing (whilst being detained!). Far more often we let the suspect go when we can't fully get a story instead of making them wait longer. 

 

Oh, do not get me wrong - I am more than happy to admit there are many things that would be on the table for review for an idea like /detain (or any similar scripting) to come to fruition. It would require far more than the 5-10 minutes I took to write my post

I do not necessarily believe there to be any ill will when there are delays in getting people where they need to go and I have seen many times over my years (even being on the receiving end myself) delays due to others being silly peanuts or people being difficult. I have personally been detained for approximately an hour for a crime that required no investigation on my part (I was outright guilty and there was 0 argument) to then serve a sentence that equated to less than my total detainment. Was it a fun experience? Unfortunate it was not and I spent the better part of the hour trying to stay awake (it was 2am by the time I got to DOC).

I know there are circumstances outside of control and I also know that things have gotten far better compared to before. Is there room for improvement? Always - I’m just not sure of what the end all best way is.

P.S Hi darling, I miss your face!

[Mikazuki Ueno]

1 hour ago, Bala said:

Not every roleplay experience you have on this server is or has to be, positive for your character. If you see having actual consequences for your actions, DOC not offering you opportunities to roleplay and giving you the charges for the crimes you have committed as charge stacking then you seriously need to look at yourself.

[Bala]

3 hours ago, Smoke1 said:

I'm sorry that you have taken this as a personal attack against pd I was just using a scenario that I could speak on because I was directly involved in it I didn't want to use hearsay and this person and that person I used my direct scenario and applied the knowledge of it to the context of my writings I just wanted to create a healthy conversation about this topic in hopes maybe we could collectively come up with some good ideas

I'm all for the PD not taking the piss when it comes to getting people into prison to begin their time, I wouldn't wanna be left waiting around for no reason and it's something that if I were witness to, I'd actively move that situation along.

That being said, not every situation like this is that. It has happened before in isolated incidents but the problem sometimes is people take scenarios like the one you talked about and start assuming that a) there was something amiss there and b) that this is the experience every one has.

I wasn't at your situation, but others that were spoke to your situation. That said, I don't see an issue OOC with adding something to shorten a person's sentence by a certain amount of time IF the pre-arrest goes over a certain amount of time through no fault of your own. 

Say if a cop is code zeroing and you have to wait like 10-15 minutes, that's not on you so that could be deducted. Same thing with an admin situation and things like that. In terms of actual legit RP though, it's all a part of it.

The problem is though, we sort of have our hands tied in terms of charges and things. We don't give people more charges, we give them all the charges they should have. If they don't get that experience elsewhere though, its going to look out of place.

3 hours ago, David Coast said:

Is that arrest weport weally trwicky?

Can someone get my man a towel, he's dribbling on his keyboard. 

[Eliza]

7 hours ago, Aldarine said:

Prison time comments aside because let's be real, they've been lowered already and the time should serve as a deterrent to doing crime, there's no need to lower it further right now, I do understand the concerns regarding detainment and do think there is possibility for improvement.

The perspective I am looking at it from is simply from an interactive side. While being detained or pending transport, yes there can be outside factors that slow down the process which is understandable, however, this delay usually come with a lack of interactive roleplay with the people whom are waiting. I respect investigation, managing a scene, and all that goes with it, and want to encourage people to continue going about their roleplay. I also do understand that waiting in a holding cell or bus twiddling your thumbs with no roleplay or engagement is not what anybody wants to do or subject anybody else to. I think we can all agree that there have been times where people have waited for a very long time of no fault of their own to only then serve their sentence which they would have ideally started serving a while prior and it can feel "unfair" for lack of better term.

That said, if there was a way (via script) to formally detain somebody and count that time towards their overall sentence (within reason - more on this below) I think that would be a decent compromise. It would still give the ability for investigation, scene management, etc. while at the same time give acknowledgement to the time that individuals are waiting to start their sentence.

Example....

A shootout takes place where two (2) suspects are apprehended and three (3) officers sustained injuries. The suspects are cuffed, all the other fun LEO jazz happens and they are placed in the back of a cruiser. When the suspects are cuffed, LEOs do /detain PLAYERID. 

Medics arrive on scene and attend to the injured officers. The two cuffed individuals are still in the cruiser waiting as this roleplay takes place. The injured officers provide in depth back and forth medical roleplay which takes a decent amount of time.

Three (3) new players (remember we love them) arrive on scene and act like little silly peanuts, hindering the ending stages of the investigation and available officers on scene spend a significant amount of time getting them under control. The cuffed individuals have now been waiting in the cruiser for 30+ minutes.

Transport finally takes place and the individuals are taken to DOC where they go through processing and all the other fun DOC jazz. When /prison is done, the amount of time under /detail is subtracted from their overall prison time remaining to be served.

A "cap" would be in place so no matter how much time you are detained, you are still required to do X amount of time of your sentence, only X% of your time in detainment is removed from your sentence, or some other way to balance it. I do not support the idea of time fully served and think there should still be the DOC part of every sentence. This gives the balance of roleplay still coming to those within DOC so the faction members are not simply glorified inmate processors (compare this idea to the offline time reduction with required time served in DOC).

I completely agree with the points made here. I've personally experienced sitting in the back of a cruiser or ambulance for anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes while LEO players are focused on their own roleplay—whether it's investigating charges, performing BLS, or handling other 10-15s on the scene.

While I understand the need for these procedures, I think it’s important to acknowledge that nobody enjoys sitting idle for long periods before their actual jail time even begins. I get the arguments like, 'Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time' and 'IC actions have IC consequences,' but at the end of the day, we all play on this server to interact and engage with others.

Ultimately, it’s the social interactions that make roleplay enjoyable, and long waiting times can detract from that experience. Finding a balance that respects both the need for thorough LEO roleplay and the time of those waiting would improve the experience for everyone involved.

[Quietthecutie]

All parties are making good arguments.

From the crims perspective, yeah, 20-40 mins of being a part of an LEOs scene RP might not be the best fun and might frustrate you. Ive never personally witnessed any LEO intentionally stalling the process, its honestly a lot more common for crims to stall just by being rascals, resisting tases, refusing to comply, running off etc. and thats all fine its a RP scenario you wanna be a silly little goober no worries.

From an LEOs perspective, every scene is different but typically you need to follow the same steps in every one:

*INHALES*

-grab your dance partner

-if they are hurt BLS them

-cuff em

-mirandise them

-frisk em

-confiscate weapons from em

-ID em

-get them safely into your cruiser

-liase with the scene supervisor to ensure the correct charges are place

-charge em

-ENSURE IT IS SAFE TO LEAVE (this is a big one that causes alot of delays at shootouts or gang related scenes. because people have a habit of trying to free their boy when they are en route, thus LEOs have to travel together and leave the scene at the same time, meaning everyone has to wait until everyone else is good to go. if you have ever been sat at a large scene wondering why no one is transporting you, its usually this or making sure your charges are good.)

-Transport them

-Mugshot/Evidence logging

-Hand off to DOC and start your own paperwork which on more complicated scenes is another 15 mins.

 

As you can see. theres alot more to the process than just charge em and start their time. theres also the valid argument of this is a RP server and not every aspect you are a part of will be enjoyable or even interactive. periods where you are not really in control of your own character. good example is kidnapping RP. youre just along for the ride. boring, but necessary to let the other party have their RP fun.

[Lue]

"Cant do the time, Don't do the crime"

[Demonmit1]

36 minutes ago, Lue said:

"Cant do the time, Don't do the crime"

if you think people shouldnt do crimes, who you gonna RP with as a cop? lol

LSPD / LSSD entire existence is reliant on people doing crime

Edited October 14, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Timmaayy]

I believe both parties can contribute to situations like this by providing constant enjoyable interaction between players. This can help to minimise time sitting around for a long period and to help make the game/experience more enjoyable. Whether LSEMS is treating a player then being transported in an ambulance or if a player has been detained by LSPD or LSSD and placed in the back of a cruiser, ongoing interaction is important. 

Players should remember that sometimes scenes require investigation to work out exactly what happened, and this can be done by roleplaying with all parties involved. However, it is my opinion if no further investigation is required with the player then they should be transported to serve their charges as soon as possible even if the scene is ongoing with other people.

At the end of the day, everyone wants to enjoy their time roleplaying and not have to sit around being bored or left out.

[padpilot]

Wait, how is this still an an issue?

The system ought to be designed where the fact of it being 10 people involved or 1 person involved irrelevant

Concerns
- Crim wait time (means less content for everyone)
- Police roleplay
- policie investigation

Simple then: 
- During active investigation officers place players into PD holding cells (this is called remand in the UK)
- Police conduct the investigation (Police roleplay sorted then)
- Of convicted just take this off the crims sentence as "time served" exactly the same as IRL
- If not convicted then  no worries, it was all RP anyways.


I see no reason why "holding" time is not the exact same thing as someone being on "remand"... should be an easy fix and makes everyone happy. 

Edited October 15, 2024 by padpilot

[SkyeFuryy]

59 minutes ago, padpilot said:

I see no reason why "holding" time is not the exact same thing as someone being on "remand"... should be an easy fix and makes everyone happy. 

My concern here is that crims will take this as an opportunity to abuse this in the following manner: "We might as well try and break him out or shoot the cops, if we fail, we've saved him prison time anyway". 

[alexalex303]

37 minutes ago, SkyeFuryy said:

My concern here is that crims will take this as an opportunity to abuse this in the following manner: "We might as well try and break him out or shoot the cops, if we fail, we've saved him prison time anyway". 

It could be balanced by increasing prison times by a good amount. 

[padpilot]

2 hours ago, SkyeFuryy said:

My concern here is that crims will take this as an opportunity to abuse this in the following manner: "We might as well try and break him out or shoot the cops, if we fail, we've saved him prison time anyway". 

The crims would be on "remand" so serving time whilst the investigation is going ahead... i dont see any benefit from a crims view for trying to break them out, maybe i am missing your concern?

If they succeed and they free the crim, and the crim was found guilty, then a warrent is issued and the crim when found would have added sentences for escaping jail

if they succeed and the free the crim, yet the crim was found innocent, then a warrant is still issued fro fleeing police custody.

If they fail, and the crim is found guilty, then the crim has already served their time, and now his friends in prison also

If they fail and the crim is innocent, then tbf, it was a dumb move anyways haha

[Smoke1]

There's a lot of really good ideas being posted here!! Thanks everyone for being mature during a hard topic of discussion. 

[Quietthecutie]

Im not entirely against the idea of someone being held "in remand." which would basically function as discretion from the arresting officer to reduce sentance based on served time i.e the ammount of time they have sat waiting for a scene to be sorted.

How this is implemented and handled, would be something that would have to be handled with great care as we would be messing with that age old "IC actions, IC consequences" argument.

genuinely i think if well implemented this could be a good thing for the server. it takes pressure off LEOs to clear a scene quickly and gives crims the assurance that them sat in a cruiser isnt wasted time, everyone wins?

The problem is that, seeing as every scene is different, what "time served" constitutes could vary wildly from LEO to LEO. there would be no hard and fast rule or standard available.

Edited October 16, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[padpilot]

3 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

Im not entirely against the idea of someone being held "in remand." which would basically function as discretion from the arresting officer to reduce sentance based on served time i.e the ammount of time they have sat waiting for a scene to be sorted.

How this is implemented and handled, would be something that would have to be handled with great care as we would be messing with that age old "IC actions, IC consequences" argument.

genuinely i think if well implemented this could be a good thing for the server. it takes pressure off LEOs to clear a scene quickly and gives crims the assurance that them sat in a cruiser isnt wasted time, everyone wins?

The problem is that, seeing as every scene is different, what "time served" constitutes could vary wildly from LEO to LEO. there would be no hard and fast rule or standard available.

Use a timer from cuffs to help get around this issus. As you say the issue is with individuals, so lets remove them from the equation. Every crim, guilty or not is placed into cuffs during investigation on the street, or in a cell if in PD. We should aim to use this benchmarks to start timers.

- place cuffs onto a player or place player into a holding cell at PD
- This starts a 5 minute timer
- For the first 5 minutes the player is not on remand as this is usual investigation time.
- After 5 minutes any remaining time in detention would be removed from the sentence once charges have been applied.

We need to ensure we remove the human discretion and rely on clear benchmarks during the arresting and investigation proceedings to insure fairness. 

[David Coast]

Honestly, I don't see much wrong with the process now. If you aren't a tart while being arrested it surely doesn't take that long? This just seems like a lot of effort not just for developers but for everyone - this is change that will start a lot of /b back and forth I assume especially if its at an officers discretion. If this is created its a tad hypocritical especially due to crims also wasting LEO's time as well - are people going to report every time I keep resisting after being tased 12 times?

Time wasting 100% has gone both ways. I just feel like this is going to create a lot of OOC drama, Dev work for nothing. Honestly most peoples arguments are valid - If you admit to the crime, you will save time. If you didn't do it, you shouldn't be there long? I just don't understand why you wouldn't go to a lawyer and make a big deal of this ICly since ICly it is a big deal. Like crim is harder work then doing anything else however it is a lot more rewarding since you can shape your RP kind of how you want, while if your an LEO you don't really have that choice. (you do.. I mean your just limited due to faction rules, OOC corruption etc)

When Civil Court™ is a thing you might actually be able to do something not through the IA system - Just JB doesn't have the experienced manpower to pull that off right now with lack of Judges, etc.

I don't know, could be wrong. Just got bored while waiting for my Dominos to get here. 

[Quietthecutie]

15 hours ago, padpilot said:

Use a timer from cuffs to help get around this issus. As you say the issue is with individuals, so lets remove them from the equation. Every crim, guilty or not is placed into cuffs during investigation on the street, or in a cell if in PD. We should aim to use this benchmarks to start timers.

- place cuffs onto a player or place player into a holding cell at PD
- This starts a 5 minute timer
- For the first 5 minutes the player is not on remand as this is usual investigation time.
- After 5 minutes any remaining time in detention would be removed from the sentence once charges have been applied.

We need to ensure we remove the human discretion and rely on clear benchmarks during the arresting and investigation proceedings to insure fairness. 

The problem with this being changed unilaterally is that crims will no longer have any motivation in the slightest to not goof off, run off, resist tases and otherwise delay a scene if their time has already been started while they are cuffed. 

One of the best ways LEOs have of getting crims to comply and behave themselves on a scene is that "youre only wasting your own time, lets try to get you to DOC asap." that argument goes right out the window if we implement this how you suggest. the only counterplay would be LEOs then stacking resisting arrest/obstruction of justice charges which would take us straight back here. 

[padpilot]

7 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

The problem with this being changed unilaterally is that crims will no longer have any motivation in the slightest to not goof off, run off, resist tases and otherwise delay a scene if their time has already been started while they are cuffed. 

One of the best ways LEOs have of getting crims to comply and behave themselves on a scene is that "youre only wasting your own time, lets try to get you to DOC asap." that argument goes right out the window if we implement this how you suggest. the only counterplay would be LEOs then stacking resisting arrest/obstruction of justice charges which would take us straight back here. 

As I say the 5 minute timer window would allow for some wiggle room...

However another easy counter to this would be 

/investigate [ID]

we can also just create a simple command which starts the timer. Overall this would not be a large or even remotely significant task for the devs tbf, if code base is up to par. Just a few simple little checks, maybe a triggerBox or colShape or whatever for the jail and a little command to start the investigation timer.. 

 

[Teenyinnit]

maybe we add a command once a crim is in a car? like /holding (ID) - this is to be used when we know they're going to DOC but haven't figured out all the charges yet.

 

it would start an upwards timer and the number it hits when the officer does /prison (ID) is the number that is deducted from overall Jailtime.

[padpilot]

7 minutes ago, Teenyinnit said:

maybe we add a command once a crim is in a car? like /holding (ID) - this is to be used when we know they're going to DOC but haven't figured out all the charges yet.

 

it would start an upwards timer and the number it hits when the officer does /prison (ID) is the number that is deducted from overall Jailtime.

Exactly this, it really is that simple +1

[tigerpet15]

On 10/13/2024 at 10:30 PM, SkyeFuryy said:

I think this is quite unfair to say: "but waiting forets say 40+min for an investigation plus 3 hours im jail you can understand how that sucks beyond suck". 

I am primarily a LEO, Louise Hoffman for those who know me, besides from the above stated that it takes time and work to sort out charges etc, I think it is really selfish to be asking us to drop our roleplay for the convenience of time. I personally enjoy working through the details, and I always try and be as fair as possible to our crim roleplayers, which means I'm not rushing to place charges for the sake of getting it done quickly. My roleplay on this server is investigating crimes that crims do. And I enjoy that roleplay. You asking us to rush that for your convenience is quite unjust and unfair, IMO. 

So when you deem it unreasonable and unjust to keep you waiting on a bus etc, you commited the crime first and foremost. Our roleplay as LEO's is dependant on you guys doing crime. We can't forecast the crime, we can only wait. So when you do commit the crime, just know that there are some LEO's who enjoy the role that we do have, and we enjoy investigating, we enjoy getting to the bottom of it. etc. 

I can't speak for everyone, but we don't keep you waiting in cells or on buses as punishment. There is a lot going on in the background, but it is never malicious. If you can't do the time, don't commit the crime. Maybe that means don't get caught, maybe that means be smarter, whatever. But don't take away from our roleplay because it's an inconvenience to you.

I don't mean to sound harsh, I just needed to get my point across as a LEO who enjoys the LEO roleplay.

 

Is it possible to allow criminals into that RP. I love seeing LEOs investigate stuff and I am creating character who is gonna be a LEO with whom I wanna do the same. Is there any way to maybe ask OOCly the criminals if they want to participate in investigation RP and include them If they are interested. I would love having interigation RP even tho it would take time etc. Cause its something different not the same RP you get every time you get arrested. By the way I really appreciate having players who like this on the server :).

[SkyeFuryy]

2 minutes ago, tigerpet15 said:

Is it possible to allow criminals into that RP. I love seeing LEOs investigate stuff and I am creating character who is gonna be a LEO with whom I wanna do the same. Is there any way to maybe ask OOCly the criminals if they want to participate in investigation RP and include them If they are interested. I would love having interigation RP even tho it would take time etc. Cause its something different not the same RP you get every time you get arrested. By the way I really appreciate having players who like this on the server :).

100% I would love to include people in the RP. If more people had the patience to do so, absolutely! 

[tigerpet15]

On 10/13/2024 at 10:33 PM, Smoke1 said:

I am not complaining about this or salty that it happens I just would like to see it become better, there's 3 things to do in doc that's it, poker was taken away there laundry, trash, ore, anyways 3 hour's being in doc sucks especially when you have spent 20-50 minutes pre jail waiting for leo RP, I always feel terrible for people when they are in my car waiting for all the stuff to be sorted.

Lets say your a criminal and you for example evade with a gun, you at the minimum get 

VF01 - Evading an Officer

VC05 - Improper Traffic Maneuvers

GM04 - Resisting Arrest

GM19 - Face Concealment (b)

WM02 - Possession of a Class 1 Firearm 

Now with Real money Diamond VIP 2500 credits a month 25 euro im canadian so thats $37 dollars a month and i got 75 minutes in jail plus 20 min in a holding cell because they didn't want to drive me. 95 min plus my niobe zerod out because the PD decided to ram it until it caught fire instead of a chase, i was pre spiked before i was even asked to step out of the car. Then told i shouldn't be in a niobe an drive a elergy retro.

Now to repair this car is 7k the fines were 4800. With all this being said I'm not mad or upset about any of this. This has become a such a common thing and the mentality needs to change OR the waiting/j-time does in my humble opinion. As a Member of SD i am very aware of all these factors and try to play as fair as i can, I am not saying others don't play fair i understand both sides, but from a community standpoint as a WHOLE i don't see how holding cells plus 3 hours in jail if you don't pay real money gives anyone a positive experience. 

Actually I think one of the biggest issue with the server is the player mentality. Like for crims its really understandable that they feel angry when they get caught pay fines loose weapons and vehicles. Though I believe LEOs should be more friendlier OOC to them and have better mentality because when they "Loose" they dont really loose anything, guns money, time etc. Also their friends get fun RP looking for the murderer etc. As a criminal I struggle with not being angry as a player when I get caught and sometimes it ruins the quality of RP I wanna make as high as possible. I dont see any easy solution to it. Like lowering the ammount cof stuff crims loose after arrest might be tricky - we can move with the fine prices or introduce a fine cap same as with the prison sentence. I dont think the sentences should be lowered though more ways how to RP in prisons would be cool (like higher A team support of ALT RP etc./maybe some scripted stuff making people RP and work together). I believe what would be awesome to see is not toxic IC behaviour from LEOs or at least regulate it, alse it would be really cool if the LEOs did more investigation RP and involve the criminal in it wiht /me /do or with interviews etc. and give them some chance to talk them selves out of charges because it supports RP. 

I understand that changing the server mentality is really difficult thing to do. And I have no more ideas how to make crims less angry/toxic after loosing to cops.