Increase Required Escalation for Raids or Remove them Completely

[Mortem]

27 minutes ago, Clank said:

 

Why are people playing an RP server to "grind" for assets. Should the main goal of a roleplay server not be to craft storylines or fun interactions? This is an RP server not an MMORPG where you need to min-max everything. If you're spending days, weeks and months grinding that is days, weeks and months spent on minimal player interaction with minimal storycrafting. The server is not about taking Ws or taking Ls. 

 

 

Without assets, most criminal roleplay in this server is impossible/impractical to take part in. ECRP being so competitive is part of what makes it so fun, let's not lie. The main goal of ECRP is to provide fun RP storylines, I agree. 

To answer your question, people grind for assets in order to participate in these kind of roleplay scenarios and fun interactions such as PVP, cooking drugs, chopping cars, house robberies, bank robberies, gang politics. Without these assets, it just simlpy wouldn't be as fun. 

[Cyrus Raven]

Realty is, this is a game, of course some people will want to have well stocked warehouses, houses, stash vehicles etc... but that's usually with a goal in mind, further RP through shoot-outs, conflict RP, etc... and not just to mindlessly horde as seems to be implied by some. In essence, the grinding for assets is a necessity, a means to achieve other types of RP that will only have slight chances of success given the current state of the server.

A quick example, there is little incentive to RP as a gangbanger crew deep in the Southside of the city if that area of the map isn't realistically treated as a dangerous no-go zone. How do you achieve this feeling and environment as the criminal side? Well you populate that area with lots of gang members, those of which are armed and will actively seek to defend their turf. How do they achieve this? With guns. How do they get these? With money. How do they get money? By manufacturing drugs, working normal static jobs, etc... Or in other words grinding.

The point I'm making is, I don't doubt there are players here just to get a gun and shoot people or grab a car and evade police, but there's a good amount who want that higher level gang RP with a decent to high amount of conflict, including shoot outs and that's ok to want to have. It's not my style of RP, but ignoring this side of the server is ignoring a substantial part of the player base.

Even I miss the days where I would drive down Senora and see 3-4 stacked Zeta contenders dismount and shoot at a rival gang, they did it because they had strength in numbers, the assets to do it and the ability by the server rules.

With this, I turn to the criminal players, I'm curious to know if the recent weapon changes made it easier for you to obtain weapons (both in terms of money spent on imports and ease of access to them) and if this has led to an increase in shoot outs and a decrease in the grind to obtain these key assets (weapons, armour, etc...). If the answer is yes, it has made it easier, then the loss from a raid shouldn't be the factor that leads to someone leaving the server. Rebuild, learn from the mistakes that got you caught and try again. However, if it hasn't improved the situation then I can understand the frustration a lot of you are expressing.

We can justify it with IC reasons and realism all we want, matter of fact is that there's a significant disparity (or at least perceived disparity) between time spent grinding versus time players actually spend engaging in the RP they want. I suspect this is why everything feels so empty when there's 200+ people around (either that or I'm horrible at finding groups of people RPing )

To try and keep this suggestion somewhat on track, raids are justified ICly and there are multiple layers of checks before a warrant for a raid gets signed off. Not to say that they are 100% always correct, but those decisions are IC'ly made and if a player catches charges from a faulty warrant they can appeal it (although that's an entirely different headache with how long cases take to get heard). What needs to change is other aspects of the server imo and not raids in specific.

[Quietthecutie]

1 hour ago, Clank said:

Ive seen countless houses for sale around the map recently for 100-200k. 

i would love to know where these are.

[SquirtleSquad]

I will say this, despite not having been involved with raids at all, but from the one that I was involved with wasn't even a planned raid. It was a goof who did something illegal, lead us back to their property with LEO behind them, and went into their house. That gave us all the IC reasons and following with High Command, and division Command discussions, we were able to enter the property. The amount of weapons we had found was, to me, outstanding and befuddling because why would you keep that much weaponry around at one place.

I understand that you're grinding drugs, cars, banks, and stores to gather funds to place shipments, which can be comp'd by LEO OR other gangs, and thus losing out. I understand that these set backs throw a wrench in your plans. I understand that this can demotivate you a lot, however, what I don't understand is the need to endlessly grind hours upon hours upon hours to get assets, when there is alternative RP that can be done, that's been suggested here before.

Working relations with other gangs, discovering new tactics, scouting, etc. Yes some of this does require some assets, but perhaps it can take away from needing to endlessly grind, which can result in getting reset due to a gang push, or LEO being informed of X happening and having enough strength to react.

At the end of the day, getting raided sucks. You lost a lot of shit, and a lot of time that you put in. From the LEO side, no, we don't really lose assets. However, we do lose things at an OOC level. I've said it before, we're missing out on RP ops because we are NLR'd. We have to be creative and try to ICly explain why we cannot be involved with an on-going situation because of getting NLR'd. At times, if something is getting executed on, the NLR can go pretty far back, and someone else has to take over and pick up the pieces. This is why when shit like this happens, as others in a similar division or involved department, documentation, evidence, and communication has to be as transparent as possible.

In the real world, raids like this where people are out of the city, town, even country are conducted all the time. That is specifically planned. In ECRP, this is not the actual case. Things don't happen because we know X won't be online, or that Y is on LOA or on vacation enjoying time with their loved ones. That wouldn't be right or fair to anyone involved, as well as a massive breach in OOC/IC mixing. There has not been one instance of IC/OCC mixing I've seen from any of these events. Everything, as I outlined above, was done with sufficient and carefully gathered and documented evidence.

At the end of the day, it's up to LFM and FM to determine whether or not these being done are in fairness, but there's already a very strict set of guidelines that have to be documented ICly to be be approved. If you've got alternative suggestions, which I've seen some good examples of in the initial post, my response here is generally aimed at those who are complaining enough already about LEO's and their involvements with everything that is IC.

[checkky]

1 hour ago, SquirtleSquad said:

At the end of the day, it's up to LFM and FM to determine whether or not these being done are in fairness

FM literally has 0 say, it’s all “IC protocol” with admin assistance every raid. 

If PD/SD can raid people (with guaranteed administrative assistance), with escalation while players are offline, I don’t see why crims can’t either (with no guaranteed administrative assistance). However, that is for another suggestion. 

I still do feel the “raiding system” should be re-worked to adapt to the dying server population. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by checkky

[ash816]

7 hours ago, HobGoblin said:

LEOs already need solid evidence before a raid is approved. 
 

It is always brought up that player quit the server over raids however this does not happen as much as people are making out. 
 

Over the past few months multiple high tier criminals have been raided during a large scale operation. While people were not happy in the first few days / weeks the same people raided still continue to play. 
 

There are multiple solutions to avoid raids and to minimise the loss if you do get raided. 

you say this but the threshold currently is:

camp *insert gang hq* see gun going into house from 400 meters away -> have someone log into JB alt to approve warrant

camp *insert gang warehouse* after leaked info of a drop -> see them (in some cases not even having to see the RP line of "you deposit a crate into a warehouse") -> log into JB alt to approve warrant -> raid 

i dont give a fuck if they an raid me or not, give me some fucking options so guys playing cop mains cant sit in their ivory tower talking smack acting like its hard

Edited November 14, 2023 by ash816

[ash816]

6 hours ago, Cyrus Raven said:

 

With this, I turn to the criminal players, I'm curious to know if the recent weapon changes made it easier for you to obtain weapons (both in terms of money spent on imports and ease of access to them) and if this has led to an increase in shoot outs and a decrease in the grind to obtain these key assets (weapons, armour, etc...). If the answer is yes, it has made it easier, then the loss from a raid shouldn't be the factor that leads to someone leaving the server. Rebuild, learn from the mistakes that got you caught and try again. However, if it hasn't improved the situation then I can understand the frustration a lot of you are expressing.

- there has been no tangible change ive noticed with anything to do with guns, prices fell slightly but weight increased

To try and keep this suggestion somewhat on track, raids are justified ICly and there are multiple layers of checks before a warrant for a raid gets signed off. Not to say that they are 100% always correct, but those decisions are IC'ly made and if a player catches charges from a faulty warrant they can appeal it (although that's an entirely different headache with how long cases take to get heard). What needs to change is other aspects of the server imo and not raids in specific.

- exactly what my earlier suggestions were based upon and a good suggestion. Being followed by infinite cop resources until you get spotted putting a crate in one of your 2 static locations that they know about sucks

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by ash816

[checkky]

I still do think there can be some changes and restrictions OOCly for raids when it comes to being fair with both parties.

Edited November 14, 2023 by checkky

[DontSniffSugar]

My input on this is I feel like something should be done about offline raiding. While I understand that making it so you can only raid somebody while they are online would be a hassle, I believe it would be a fair option. I believe I can speak for a lot of people by saying that it's really demotivating logging off for the night and logging on the next day being stash wiped. While I do agree that raiding a property known to have illegal items is a realistic thing to do as LEO and I'm not saying it should be entirely removed, I believe there is always room for improvement.

 

At the end of the day, raids will happen and sure they suck, but they can provide lots of roleplay opportunities for yourself or your factions.

 

Just as an example, you could hunt down the person who went out of their way to hit your property and retaliate in some way.

 

I would also like to state I'm not taking anybody's side in this, but while yes, it is extremely demotivating, it can also bring further RP, and possibly even a harsh lesson; that lesson being to be very cautious with being seen with weaponry or where you choose to store your weapons.

Edited November 14, 2023 by DontSniffSugar
more info

[Marksy]

I have to admit the amount of LEO players on here saying how it isn't about W's or L's it's about the RP is pretty laughable considering the vast amount of resources they have to basically ensure a W most times, not to mention the map changes over the years to soley accomodate LEO's taking less L's for example the recent swimming rule because they don't wanna lose you in a chase or when they blocked off the train tunnels and bridges around paleto and señora freeway areas to avoid people losing them via those means during pursuits. 

The server scripts, rule changes and map updates has been edging more and more in LEO favour over the years than anything that would benefit crims in a Crim Vs LEO situation.

[checkky]

4 minutes ago, Marksy said:

I have to admit the amount of LEO players on here saying how it isn't about W's or L's it's about the RP is pretty laughable considering the vast amount of resources they have to basically ensure a W most times, not to mention the map changes over the years to soley accomodate LEO's taking less L's for example the recent swimming rule because they don't wanna lose you in a chase or when they blocked off the train tunnels and bridges around paleto and señora freeway areas to avoid people losing them via those means during pursuits. 

The amount of administrative assistance and backing to these raids is pretty comedic, considering none of these players know what it feels like to try to make these fun scenarios without any administrative assistance.

[Cup]

Imo as someone who plays both sides the swimming rule was long overdue but thats only my opinion.

 

I still stick with my original point that i wish there was some way to make it so all parties were atleast able to be involved in the rp if a raid was to happen but thats a pipe dream that i cant even begin to think of how to make work. 

[Demonmit1]

while i expect to probably get raided sooner or later, i know i would personally be quite upset if law enforcement chose to offline raid my group, this is a Roleplay server, not a rust PVP server... lol

Obviously, its a very difficult situation. Police have spent hours RPing and working to get evidence, information, warrants, and plan the raids. forcing them to hold off till the group they are wanting to raid is online would be unreasonable, and just removing the ability to raid is outright a joke.

its difficult, and would put more load onto in game staff, but i would much rather be informed OOC about the raid so i can have the chance to be apart of that roleplay experience. i think not informing someone OOC is a detriment to the roleplay for both sides. law enforcement would have to deal with their IC target, and the person getting raided has a chance to respond when it happens if they're online. I think both sides of a raid would prefer to have that RP interaction than the cops choosing to offline raid, and the crims not getting a chance to be a part of it. 

yes, its difficult and ripe for metagaming, but it would be SO OBNOXIOUSLY clear if someone started to metagame if they got an OOC notification that a raid was planned, they'd very simply be banned. there would be some time where the server staff will have to filter out the players that will chose to metagame, but it would be so much more beneficial for RP on both sides to have a chance to be a part of a raid.

Let my character go down with the ship, or let my character chose to give up. at least give people the chance to be involved in the RP that Law enforcement have spent so much time prepping from their side. 

[Homast]

2 hours ago, checkky said:

The amount of administrative assistance and backing to these raids is pretty comedic, considering none of these players know what it feels like to try to make these fun scenarios without any administrative assistance.

Hi, It me, Someone who knows what it feels like to try and make these fun scenarios without admin assistance.

If Someone with ManageProperty Permissions is caught in the property, They will be the first approach rather than Admin help.

Sometimes, yes, raids are done when the property owner are offline, that's at the end of the day, entirely unavoidable and I don't believe will be subject to change. However, instead of being restrictive, why don't we be inclusive? Instead of saying "Hey, let's stop X and Y from doing Z" Let's start saying "Hey, Give W the ability to do Z"

If you want Raids to only be conducted while the player is online.... What exactly is that changing? The fact that you can then instead get your 30 person crew together to storm a full Police Blockade comprising of the very thing you believe makes LEOs unbalanced to begin with?

Also, Members of the Admin Team who DO decide to help out, scrutinize the RP behind the Raid.


A Paradigm shift needs to occur where it's less about Dogpiling one half of the server because Assets are lost. You're choosing to play an inherently risky character by being a criminal, Your risk should never be 0, Understanding that there may or may not be a way that you're going to lose it all, most times through your own negligence needs to start happening, and y'all need to stop building these massive nest eggs that hurt so badly when they are raided.

I've said it before and I'll say it again when similar topics are brought up, Play Smarter.
 

[Hazel]

4 hours ago, ash816 said:

camp *insert gang hq* see gun going into house from 400 meters away -> have someone log into JB alt to approve warrant

camp *insert gang warehouse* after leaked info of a drop -> see them (in some cases not even having to see the RP line of "you deposit a crate into a warehouse") -> log into JB alt to approve warrant -> raid 

No LEOs, to my knowledge, have a JB alt with the authority to approve a warrant. Bit of a wild accusation to throw out there.

[Marksy]

11 minutes ago, Hazel said:

No LEOs, to my knowledge, have a JB alt with the authority to approve a warrant. Bit of a wild accusation to throw out there.

There has definitely been a few in recent times, I won't name names but I know for a FACT there has been more than one.

[ash816]

18 minutes ago, Homast said:

Hi, It me, Someone who knows what it feels like to try and make these fun scenarios without admin assistance.

If Someone with ManageProperty Permissions is caught in the property, They will be the first approach rather than Admin help.

- literally happened to me, i was sat in the car instead for 1 hour 30 mins, then when the admin left and couldnt access my vending machines i had a 15 min conversation just asking them to let me put my legal stuff back to stop wasting my time, which they eventually conceded 

Sometimes, yes, raids are done when the property owner are offline, that's at the end of the day, entirely unavoidable and I don't believe will be subject to change. However, instead of being restrictive, why don't we be inclusive? Instead of saying "Hey, let's stop X and Y from doing Z" Let's start saying "Hey, Give W the ability to do Z"

- this is exactly what ive outlined ref giving crim factions other options because raiding is fine but the current options suck is someone wants to survey me 24/7.

If you want Raids to only be conducted while the player is online.... What exactly is that changing? The fact that you can then instead get your 30 person crew together to storm a full Police Blockade comprising of the very thing you believe makes LEOs unbalanced to begin with?

- there is only 1 crim faction with 30 members. which still pails in comparison to the PD/SD resources, the others have low 20's,  also disagree with it being online only anyway, There's nothing all you can do when they turn up with 8 armoured trucks and the buzzard because raid.

Also, Members of the Admin Team who DO decide to help out, scrutinize the RP behind the Raid.


A Paradigm shift needs to occur where it's less about Dogpiling one half of the server because Assets are lost. You're choosing to play an inherently risky character by being a criminal, Your risk should never be 0, Understanding that there may or may not be a way that you're going to lose it all, most times through your own negligence needs to start happening, and y'all need to stop building these massive nest eggs that hurt so badly when they are raided.

- I don't think anyone cares about the nest egg being lost and i dont think has been ANYONES point in this thread, its the fact there are so few options to "play smarter" as is outlined in the thread. this is all we get told "play smarter" whilst we cannot relocate, cannot obtain new warehouses, cannot buy new housing, cannot scriptly get properties or cars not in our names. Its just a circle of eventually piss off SD/PD, get gang surpressed and watched, wait for raid because we have no options.

I've said it before and I'll say it again when similar topics are brought up, Play Smarter.

- ???????
 

 

[illin]

27 minutes ago, Hazel said:

No LEOs, to my knowledge, have a JB alt with the authority to approve a warrant. Bit of a wild accusation to throw out there.

this is just entirely not true....

[HobGoblin]

5 minutes ago, illin said:

this is just entirely not true....

Who has one?

[Herbo]

I'll say that I see both sides of this discussion, especially having characters in both the crim world and LEO world. Here's my opinion on some of the things I've seen said.

1. "Play Smarter" - I'm sorry but for lack of better words this is bullshit. When you have an LEO sitting 200-300 Meters away with a sniper just watching you, there's quite literally nothing you can do. You have zero control over that situation, it's not like you can tell they're outside undercover watching you or something of that aspect, you literally just have zero control over this. Now I'm not saying make this against the rules or anything but I am saying is this isn't something that you can respond to with "Play Smarter". 

If someone decides to go into their house with something that can get them raided and there's a detective outside sitting undercover and that gets them raided, then yes I agree. That's on them for going into their house with shit while other people are around and they should "Play Smarter", but when it's someone sitting super far away with a sniper there's not much you can do.

2. Offline Raids - I agree that getting offline raided by PD/SD would be extremely annoying and if it happened to me I'd be extremely pissed off to, but this is semi-realistic. Cops aren't always gonna raid an apartment when the persons there or anything, like other people have said, raid times are chosen based off of PD/SD availability, I don't think they factor when you play into their chosen time.

Additionally, I'm sorry to say it but what the fuck are you gonna do to defend against a raid, even if you're online. We all saw what happened to CSB when PD was going on an apartment raiding spree, CSB tried to counter it and got demolished as there was PD, SD, and DOC that got called to the area. Most times raids are happening during peak hours when there's A LOT of PD/SD around, like 30+ units between the departments, I'm sorry but no gang is taking that fight and winning. There's quite literally not much you can do to prevent the raid even if you're online. All of SWAT/SED that's there is gonna have 200 APs and their best guns, all the detectives are gonna have their heaviest kevlar and their best guns. It's just not a fight you're winning.

Additionally, if people get notified about raids or something like that to prevent offline raids, what's stopping that from getting MG. Like you receive a discord notification like "There is going to be a raid on one of your houses on November 17th @ 6:30pm UTC" that's just going to get MG'd. 

3. Raids in general - Raids are normally the result of A LOT of RP on the LEO side that you don't see. Whether it's going undercover and following you around, or numerous situations of small pieces of evidence they use to get enough. LEOs spend quite a large chunk of time preparing what they need to request a warrant. They then have a shit ton of paperwork to go along with that, and then after they have more paperwork and they gotta catalogue everything. LEOs put a lot of work into it and removing them just seems like a severe overreaction for something that does not happen that often. I really don't think anything needs to get changed about them.

4. Approval Process - Warrants are looked at by the JB team (obviously) and I'm sure members of staff even take a look at them. If something is fishy about the warrant it will be shut down and/or reversed. An example of this happened to one of my friends Uzii_Aston. He got raided and lost a ton of shit, it got looked over eventually and he got everything back (At least this is what I heard from him), the point is if something looks off, it will be dealt with due to the amount of loss that comes with raids. 

5. Touching on "Play Smarter" again - I'm sorry but I agree with Homast here, if you're keeping 20+ heavies and 30+ .50s and just a ton of shit in one house, it's ultimately on you when/if it gets raided. There is zero reason to buy that many guns and keep them in one house, relax on guns and buy a 2nd or 3rd apartment, house, or property and spread your stuff out.

All in all, I think that they should maybe make raids just a tad bit more difficult to get (Make the warrants a little more difficult) but other then that I think they're fine. That's just my opinion on the matter tho.

[Clank]

16 minutes ago, illin said:

this is just entirely not true....

Name em

[checkky]

1 hour ago, Homast said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again when similar topics are brought up, Play Smarter

For someone who, unfortunately, has 1m XP on his crim I do play it smart. However, for new players it’s kinda hard when PD/SD metagame scenarios for their “play to win” mentality and act/dress like criminals and act/dress like criminals? Oh but it’s okay, they have all the script support in the world to go undercover in any aspect they please, besides from a different alias.

[Clank]

1 minute ago, checkky said:

For someone who, unfortunately, has 1m XP on his crim I do play it smart. However, for new players it’s kinda hard when PD/SD metagame scenarios for their “play to win” mentality and act/dress like criminals and act/dress like criminals? Oh but it’s okay, they have all the script support in the world to go undercover in any aspect they please, besides from a different alias.

You firmly believe undercover law enforcement, whether local or federal do not dress and act like criminals during undercover operations? 

I don't appreciate the metagaming comments because none of these situation (as far as I'm aware) have been brought to the attention of leaders in the LSPD. 

And quite frankly, I'm one of those people that believe /alias should be removed same with IDs above players heads. Should hold a hotkey down to reveal a player ID and that's it. 

[illin]

49 minutes ago, Clank said:

Name em

 

1 hour ago, HobGoblin said:

Who has one?

I'm not going to be the one who divulges another person's character. However, up until recently, there was one.

(no accusations of it actually happening, just simply stating a fact)

[Melody Frey]

My only issue is offline raiding which isn't realistic most of the time. Most of the times I was raided, my character was "asleep" inside of the place that was raided.

 

I do not want LEOs to have to wait for the person to be online, BUT I do want an admin to ping me for RP OPs and just hit me with a "You would get a notification on your phone that your home is being broken into!" similar to how we get them if someone is boltcutting into things. I feel like that would at least help the situation and would require next to no effort to do.