Toxic Sexism On The Server

[Aldarine]

It's unfortunate that a respectful and well intentioned discussion gets trolled in this manner. If anything it further sheds light on parts of the issue.

[gohena]

On 7/9/2019 at 3:02 PM, gyrhnr said:

If you're hot you get catcalled IRL all the time. I'm not saying it's right, but need to learn how to deal with it as everyone else, it's the internet where things get a bit more crazy.

yo for real lmao

[Aldarine]

1 minute ago, gohena said:

yo for real lmao

Absolutely true, it's when it goes over the top and get excessive with no RP reason and infringes that it becomes an issue. I have great friends that have come from catcalling encounters.

[gohena]

10 minutes ago, Aldarine said:

Absolutely true, it's when it goes over the top and get excessive with no RP reason and infringes that it becomes an issue. I have great friends that have come from catcalling encounters.

yeah at that point they should honestly submit a non rp report on the forums like if it's none stop and trollish behavior 

[OBESE]

8 hours ago, Reckless311 said:

You're arguing on a slippery slope.  Yes, those things can drive players away, but as others have said that is PART OF THE GAME.  Rampant harassment is NOT part of the game. 

 

Furthermore, simply because YOU don't see the behavior, doesn't mean it isn't there.  You simply aren't privy to what a lot of the females go through, obviously.  It's very narrow minded to say "I don't see it, so it doesn't exist".  Do you deny that it's raining for someone in a different area of your city if it's not raining in your area?  That's about how silly your argument sounds.  Many people have seen it and it's vile and disgusting.  The crimes you're describing are PART of the game, I don't understand where your disconnect from this argument is.  

His disconnect on this argument is because he does not understand that this sexism and harassment is targeted for OOC reasons, girl in game being a girl in RL. If that would be a thing for all the female characters and guys would keep doing that even there is a male behind the character, then I could agree that it is purely IC issue and that's it, but I know that players on this server are asking on discord is the character an actual girl and even asking for Instagram and snapchats at that point if she is, to see is she pretty one or not. So this all takes it to a different and totally OOC issue, considering that there are different levels of reason why the female character is targeted. In the end in most cases it ends up being that the harasser is more interested into the person behind the screen, than the character IG and that technically goes as OOC targeting and harassment.

[gyrhnr]

4 hours ago, Aldarine said:

Absolutely true, it's when it goes over the top and get excessive with no RP reason and infringes that it becomes an issue. I have great friends that have come from catcalling encounters.

You kidding me? 

You make all this fuss about how bad you have it on the server and than write that comment?

Maybe the problem is you lacking experience in how to handle/react to certain situations?

Maybe you like drama and just enjoy all the attention it gives you?

[Drek20]

3 hours ago, gyrhnr said:

You kidding me? 

You make all this fuss about how bad you have it on the server and than write that comment?

Maybe the problem is you lacking experience in how to handle/react to certain situations?

Maybe you like drama and just enjoy all the attention it gives you?

From what I’ve seen women have it easy on this server, they get in the top gangs easily and “marry” a rich dude same as in real life . Everytime I see a girl on the server they are surrounded by fellow gang members or riding in the passenger seat of super cars lol. Seems like this is the Eclipse “Me too” movement lol. Sure the catcalling exists but is it any different then in real life? If your being harassed report it, simple.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Drek20

[Cyrus Raven]

 

 

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 Advanced issues found

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7 minutes ago, Drek20 said:

 

 

1

 Advanced issues found

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4 minutes ago, Drek20 said:

From what I’ve seen women have it easy on this server, they get in the top gangs easily and “marry” a rich dude same as in real life .

mfw all women IRL marry a rich dude, I don't mean this in an offensive way but you are literally parroting incel talking points...yikes, and judging by the negative way you mentioned the ''me too'' movement it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to figure out your political ideology, I don't think you're the type of person we're trying to convince with this thread, some people are just to far gone.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Kyle White Raven

[Drek20]

Oh chill out I was making a point. Throw incel insults all you want I have a girlfriend and a child lol. Far from it. And I doubt this is an appropriate place to talk politics. Enjoy your day.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Drek20

[Aldarine]

48 minutes ago, gyrhnr said:

You kidding me? 

You make all this fuss about how bad you have it on the server and than write that comment?

Maybe the problem is you lacking experience in how to handle/react to certain situations?

Maybe you like drama and just enjoy all the attention it gives you?

Okay let's break this down logically point by point:

1. No, I'm not kidding you and you are massively reaching. More on that in a bit.

2. My level if experience in handling these situations is 10/10 thank you.

3. Not at all, in fact I hate drama and believe it's exhausting, frustrating, and shouldn't be present in a place where people just want to have fun.

Okay now back to the first point, let's look into this far reach of insuations.

My comment states absolutely nothing wrong. From the beginning I have made it very clear that I in no way, shape, or form am stating that a player should not exhibit sexist behaviors. Everybody has their freedom to play the character they so choose... while still remaining respectful to the community as a whole. There is absolutely nothing wrong with going through an exchange ICly that includes catcalling and good RP and then from there actually creating an OOC friendship. The exchange was never over the top, blatantly offensive, or overtly demeaning.

I point your attention to the Roleplay Guide, written by Eclipse staff which states the following in regards to racist remarks:

"Everyone needs to treat each other with mutual respect on this server."

It is possible to treat each other with respect while making racist remarks - the same goes for sexist remarks.

[Aldarine]

Anyway, back to an actual suggestion to potentially minimize if not remedy the issue...

I keep pointing back to the Roleplay Guide and the section titled "Racist Remarks" for many points as this can be looked at for different circumstances and I advocate for sexism to be added as well. Right now this is only listed in the guide and not actively in the rule book. As the guide was written by staff and therefore that section written by them as well, does it not make sense for an easy transition to the rule book even as an addition to the harassment rule? Even without it in the rule book but knowing it exists in the guide, I would say that it would make rational sense to be a privately reportable offense after going into /b /o /ooc stating discomfort. As we should make sure to remain respectful of players, I think this would be a fair suggestion. It would in no way infringe on people who RP appropriately and within the lines of respect.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Aldarine

[gyrhnr]

2 hours ago, Aldarine said:

Okay let's break this down logically point by point:

1. No, I'm not kidding you and you are massively reaching. More on that in a bit.

2. My level if experience in handling these situations is 10/10 thank you.

3. Not at all, in fact I hate drama and believe it's exhausting, frustrating, and shouldn't be present in a place where people just want to have fun.

Okay now back to the first point, let's look into this far reach of insuations.

My comment states absolutely nothing wrong. From the beginning I have made it very clear that I in no way, shape, or form am stating that a player should not exhibit sexist behaviors. Everybody has their freedom to play the character they so choose... while still remaining respectful to the community as a whole. There is absolutely nothing wrong with going through an exchange ICly that includes catcalling and good RP and then from there actually creating an OOC friendship. The exchange was never over the top, blatantly offensive, or overtly demeaning.

I point your attention to the Roleplay Guide, written by Eclipse staff which states the following in regards to racist remarks:

"Everyone needs to treat each other with mutual respect on this server."

It is possible to treat each other with respect while making racist remarks - the same goes for sexist remarks.

 

I'm not going to read what you wrote above , I found what the issue is. I won't say it but i'm sure other people will see it as well.

Have a nice weekend!

[Aldarine]

1 minute ago, gyrhnr said:

 

I'm not going to read what you wrote above , I found what the issue is. I won't say it but i'm sure other people will see it as well.

Have a nice weekend!

Have a lovely weekend and thank you for your input.

[Celine]

Hi! I just wanted to put my input on this discussion. I have been playing on this server for about 3 months now and I agree that this is an issue. Personally, I don't get affected by the IC interactions but it does discourage me to go to certain places such as the bank. However I cant speak for everyone. I am sure it's super uncomfortable, especially if you're by yourself to get ganged up on and I totally agree that it's unrealistic. I love waking up and going to the parking lot only for 10+ gang members to surround me and ask for ERP. If anything it's just annoying having to deal with boys/ grown men stalking your character, making comments, calling you all sorts of names whilst you just want to go on with your day.

I don't really care about how boys talk to me IC, but most of the time when a boy tries to talk to me IC they take it OOC. After either trying to cat call me or force an interaction with me I get hit with the /pm 000 Hey what's your discord? -- Again, I can just ignore it right? But no, sadly some of these boys do take the time to look in every EclipseRP related discord server in hopes of finding me. What happens next? Constant messages. Yes I am aware that I can block them, but does it help when it happens frequently? When I have to deal with it every single day that I log on?

And for the record. No it's definitely not only criminals on the server who acts this way. It's everything from PD, MD, DCC, DOC, both big and small factions, quiz team members, support members, and even moderators+. You get the idea. I've been sent to prison before and watched DOC employees state remarks about things they do to females. Similar things happen in PD when I have to deal with officers constantly harassing me and targeting me for rejecting them. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone at PD is bad, but the majority of officers I have interacted with have said some sort of sexual comment towards my character and they let their OOC feelings mix into their character's feelings. I love watching the same cop who was rejected the day prior mosey on up to bank with the swat team over reckless operation of a vehicle. Now to all of you who say ignore it, yeah let me just ignore a police officer when he pulls me over just to talk to my character and force interaction? Let me just ignore a staff member and ignore RP? You either comply and talk to them or reject them and get targeted. You rejected a police officer? Have fun being arrested on bullshit charges. For those that say report them, do you expect me to report 10+ different guys every day for harassment and report staff members for constantly trying to contact me OOC? All you can do as a female on this server is smile, wave, act nice and ignore anything sexual that comes your way even if you're being stalked and messaged OOCly.

[Cyrus Raven]

17 minutes ago, Celine said:

Hi! I just wanted to put my input on this discussion. I have been playing on this server for about 3 months now and I agree that this is an issue. Personally, I don't get affected by the IC interactions but it does discourage me to go to certain places such as the bank. However I cant speak for everyone. I am sure it's super uncomfortable, especially if you're by yourself to get ganged up on and I totally agree that it's unrealistic. I love waking up and going to the parking lot only for 10+ gang members to surround me and ask for ERP. If anything it's just annoying having to deal with boys/ grown men stalking your character, making comments, calling you all sorts of names whilst you just want to go on with your day.

I don't really care about how boys talk to me IC, but most of the time when a boy tries to talk to me IC they take it OOC. After either trying to cat call me or force an interaction with me I get hit with the /pm 000 Hey what's your discord? -- Again, I can just ignore it right? But no, sadly some of these boys do take the time to look in every EclipseRP related discord server in hopes of finding me. What happens next? Constant messages. Yes I am aware that I can block them, but does it help when it happens frequently? When I have to deal with it every single day that I log on?

And for the record. No it's definitely not only criminals on the server who acts this way. It's everything from PD, MD, DCC, DOC, both big and small factions, quiz team members, support members, and even moderators+. You get the idea. I've been sent to prison before and watched DOC employees state remarks about things they do to females. Similar things happen in PD when I have to deal with officers constantly harassing me and targeting me for rejecting them. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone at PD is bad, but the majority of officers I have interacted with have said some sort of sexual comment towards my character and they let their OOC feelings mix into their character's feelings. I love watching the same cop who was rejected the day prior mosey on up to bank with the swat team over reckless operation of a vehicle. Now to all of you who say ignore it, yeah let me just ignore a police officer when he pulls me over just to talk to my character and force interaction? Let me just ignore a staff member and ignore RP? You either comply and talk to them or reject them and get targeted. You rejected a police officer? Have fun being arrested on bullshit charges. For those that say report them, do you expect me to report 10+ different guys every day for harassment and report staff members for constantly trying to contact me OOC? All you can do as a female on this server is smile, wave, act nice and ignore anything sexual that comes your way even if you're being stalked and messaged OOCly.

I've already given my thoughts on the situation, just wanted to add that although reporting everyone might be hard when it comes to people that are in the staff team or an official faction it is worth reporting these issues (preferably with evidence) as they can have a significant change. 10+ random civilians can be hard as OP described and it would take hours to complete all the reports, but even one or two well written and substantiated reports on a PD/DOC/EMS/Staff member and that would go along way to not only leaving a paper trail showing this type of behavior exists but also making sure that some action is taken to make things better.

 

If not OOC reports then an IC report through IA with regards to harassment by Police would also go a long way, I've been in PD for about 2 months now and I've only had good experiences with the people here, including females, which is why reading your statement comes as a surprise. Not to say that this isn't true, but it might be something that isn't noticeable exactly because I am not a female and therefore don't have to deal with it, which is why I encourage you to report it.

[gyrhnr]

20 minutes ago, Celine said:

Hi! I just wanted to put my input on this discussion. I have been playing on this server for about 3 months now and I agree that this is an issue. Personally, I don't get affected by the IC interactions but it does discourage me to go to certain places such as the bank. However I cant speak for everyone. I am sure it's super uncomfortable, especially if you're by yourself to get ganged up on and I totally agree that it's unrealistic. I love waking up and going to the parking lot only for 10+ gang members to surround me and ask for ERP. If anything it's just annoying having to deal with boys/ grown men stalking your character, making comments, calling you all sorts of names whilst you just want to go on with your day.

I don't really care about how boys talk to me IC, but most of the time when a boy tries to talk to me IC they take it OOC. After either trying to cat call me or force an interaction with me I get hit with the /pm 000 Hey what's your discord? -- Again, I can just ignore it right? But no, sadly some of these boys do take the time to look in every EclipseRP related discord server in hopes of finding me. What happens next? Constant messages. Yes I am aware that I can block them, but does it help when it happens frequently? When I have to deal with it every single day that I log on?

And for the record. No it's definitely not only criminals on the server who acts this way. It's everything from PD, MD, DCC, DOC, both big and small factions, quiz team members, support members, and even moderators+. You get the idea. I've been sent to prison before and watched DOC employees state remarks about things they do to females. Similar things happen in PD when I have to deal with officers constantly harassing me and targeting me for rejecting them. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone at PD is bad, but the majority of officers I have interacted with have said some sort of sexual comment towards my character and they let their OOC feelings mix into their character's feelings. I love watching the same cop who was rejected the day prior mosey on up to bank with the swat team over reckless operation of a vehicle. Now to all of you who say ignore it, yeah let me just ignore a police officer when he pulls me over just to talk to my character and force interaction? Let me just ignore a staff member and ignore RP? You either comply and talk to them or reject them and get targeted. You rejected a police officer? Have fun being arrested on bullshit charges. For those that say report them, do you expect me to report 10+ different guys every day for harassment and report staff members for constantly trying to contact me OOC? All you can do as a female on this server is smile, wave, act nice and ignore anything sexual that comes your way even if you're being stalked and messaged OOCly.

Agree.

Finally someone who does'nt just cry without explaining the reasoning behind it.

Very well put together and keeping it real on both sides.

[Commander783]

Quote

All you can do as a female on this server is smile, wave, act nice and ignore anything sexual that comes your way even if you're being stalked and messaged OOCly.

Best advice.

[Randul]

I apologise if this has been discussed already as I read through the first 2 pages and then jumped here to save myself some time.

Our current server rules:

Quote

• 4.2 It is prohibited to intimidate players from playing on the server or to continuously harass them in the game for OOC reasons to purposely make their game experience poor.

• 6.5 Players may use offensive language in IC chat for roleplay but not excessive

 

Would you find it an acceptable comprimise to adjust both of the above rulings to include but are not limited to inclinding the protected characteristics in game and across all our platforms? As soon as you feel like the langauge / actions they are taking against your character to be excessive, you can politly inform them OOCly they are being excessive. Any actions that continue after this point will be deamed to be a rule violation.

I'm an avid supporter in enabling all forms of roleplay whether they be graphic / homophobic / misogynistic / rasict it's their character and I believe they should be able to portray all day to day real life actions, however as soon as this breachs into discomfort for one of the parties involded it such terminate instantly.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Randul
Formating issues

[Victor Einhart]

Honestly, putting on the grown up pants for a moment, the only way to get the issues outlined in this thread to stop is to start reporting it.  I understand that it's time consuming and unfair and you shouldn't have to do this and all that, but if your response is to:

59 minutes ago, Celine said:

smile, wave, act nice

...in response to harassment, then there will never be any resolution.  Why would there be?  If the people doing this sort of stuff aren't getting in trouble, why would they stop?

I don't understand what kinds of action you want to be taken if the standard response is to refuse to bring it up to those who'd be able to help you.  If you want change, you need to take action yourself and empower yourself, because otherwise things will stay the same.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Victor Einhart

[Jey]

Yeah but are we really going to have a ruleset that allows in-character racism, but catcalling women is bannable?

[Aldarine]

35 minutes ago, Randul said:

I apologise if this has been discussed already as I read through the first 2 pages and then jumped here to save myself some time.

Our current server rules:

 

Would you find it an acceptable comprimise to adjust both of the above rulings to include but are not limited to inclinding the protected characteristics in game and across all our platforms? As soon as you feel like the langauge / actions they are taking against your character to be excessive, you can politly inform them OOCly they are being excessive. Any actions that continue after this point will be deamed to be a rule violation.

I'm an avid supporter in enabling all forms of roleplay whether they be graphic / homophobic / misogynistic / rasict it's their character and I believe they should be able to portray all day to day real life actions, however as soon as this breachs into discomfort for one of the parties involded it such terminate instantly.

Randul, 

Thank you for taking the time so respond with a very good suggestion. Like you, I am a big supporter of embracing your character and not limiting roleplay opportunities. I think this compromise in the rules still allows for that while at the same time making sure we, as a community, ground ourselves of respect to have a fun and rewarding experience on the server. 

[Aldarine]

30 minutes ago, Victor Einhart said:

Honestly, putting on the grown up pants for a moment, the only way to get the issues outlined in this thread to stop is to start reporting it.  I understand that it's time consuming and unfair and you shouldn't have to do this and all that, but if your response is to:

...in response to harassment, then there will never be any resolution.  Why would there be?  If the people doing this sort of stuff aren't getting in trouble, why would they stop?

I don't understand what kinds of action you want to be taken if the standard response is to refuse to bring it up to those who'd be able to help you.  If you want change, you need to take action yourself and empower yourself, because otherwise things will stay the same.

Absolutely. I think Randul's response about the rule would help this. The reason I haven‘t taken this behavior to the forums in terms of player reports is highly due to not really having a rule to cite that has actual weight aside from he-said/she-said which then results in meaningless reports and a lot of wasted time. With potential rule changes, there would be something enforceable and a process (stating discomfort OOCly first) which would effectively throw out the he-said/she-said time wasting. Player reports take time and effort both on the reporting party side and staff side and when the response from the reported party is "that's my roleplay" it makes things exponentially more difficult and can leave you feeling what is the point which is highly unfortunate.

[Dashingly]

I sympathize with you, and totally get what you mean. Although I'm not a female, I'm treated like a piece of meat just walking down the street. @Phil McGee

I hope a good solution is brought forth there are some decent suggestions but its tough to limit people from speaking derogatory to other players. Randul's suggestion is good, if a player is feeling harassed about something maybe they can't help, like being a female, or gay, or having an accent, you should be able to say in /b that you're uncomfortable and it should end there. A rule like that would be pretty easy to implement, I think.

I knew a player who quit because he had a speech impediment and people would nonstop flame him as soon as he started talking, which is fucked up and should never happen. 

Anyway, I'm all for a rule put in place that would limit players from being harassed or being made uncomfortable ONLY for things out of their control (sex, voice, sexuality). probably at least.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Dashingly

[Aldarine]

1 hour ago, Celine said:

Hi! I just wanted to put my input on this discussion. I have been playing on this server for about 3 months now and I agree that this is an issue. Personally, I don't get affected by the IC interactions but it does discourage me to go to certain places such as the bank. However I cant speak for everyone. I am sure it's super uncomfortable, especially if you're by yourself to get ganged up on and I totally agree that it's unrealistic. I love waking up and going to the parking lot only for 10+ gang members to surround me and ask for ERP. If anything it's just annoying having to deal with boys/ grown men stalking your character, making comments, calling you all sorts of names whilst you just want to go on with your day.

I don't really care about how boys talk to me IC, but most of the time when a boy tries to talk to me IC they take it OOC. After either trying to cat call me or force an interaction with me I get hit with the /pm 000 Hey what's your discord? -- Again, I can just ignore it right? But no, sadly some of these boys do take the time to look in every EclipseRP related discord server in hopes of finding me. What happens next? Constant messages. Yes I am aware that I can block them, but does it help when it happens frequently? When I have to deal with it every single day that I log on?

And for the record. No it's definitely not only criminals on the server who acts this way. It's everything from PD, MD, DCC, DOC, both big and small factions, quiz team members, support members, and even moderators+. You get the idea. I've been sent to prison before and watched DOC employees state remarks about things they do to females. Similar things happen in PD when I have to deal with officers constantly harassing me and targeting me for rejecting them. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying everyone at PD is bad, but the majority of officers I have interacted with have said some sort of sexual comment towards my character and they let their OOC feelings mix into their character's feelings. I love watching the same cop who was rejected the day prior mosey on up to bank with the swat team over reckless operation of a vehicle. Now to all of you who say ignore it, yeah let me just ignore a police officer when he pulls me over just to talk to my character and force interaction? Let me just ignore a staff member and ignore RP? You either comply and talk to them or reject them and get targeted. You rejected a police officer? Have fun being arrested on bullshit charges. For those that say report them, do you expect me to report 10+ different guys every day for harassment and report staff members for constantly trying to contact me OOC? All you can do as a female on this server is smile, wave, act nice and ignore anything sexual that comes your way even if you're being stalked and messaged OOCly.

Celine, thank you for taking the time to let us know about your experiences thus far. I'm sorry your experience has been that way. First, let me state that if you have any issue with this behavior at MD please let us know with a report. I am a part of the faction and the members I typically rp with including higher ups are very well aware of this thread. That behavior is not acceptable. Second, I am hopeful that by speaking about this and having respectful conversations, these situations will lessen as there will be more weight behind our requests for it to stop. 

[Aldarine]

3 minutes ago, Dashingly said:

I sympathize with you, and totally get what you mean. Although I'm not a female, I'm treated like a piece of meat just walking down the street. @Phil McGee

I hope a good solution is brought forth there are some decent suggestions but its tough to limit people from speaking derogatory to other players. Randul's suggestion is good, if a player is feeling harassed about something maybe they can't help, like being a female, or gay, or having an accent, you should be able to say in /b that you're uncomfortable and it should end there. A rule like that would be pretty easy to implement, I think.

I knew a player who quit because he had a speech impediment and people would nonstop flame him as soon as he started talking, which is fucked up and should never happen.

Anyway, I'm all for a rule put in place that would limit players from being harassed or being made uncomfortable ONLY for things out of their control (sex, voice, sexuality). probably at least.

Thank you and I am sorry about the negative behaviors you came into contact with as well as the player who quit. I know that I didn't take part in that nor do I know you, but it still is disheartening. 

There is actually a player report I wanted to clip and post along with a video of my own of smaller behaviors that link to this thread. Unfortunately I am not at my PC but I can outline what occurred:

1. In the player report, a male was roleplaying as a female and comments included "let me see them titties" as well as '"the only thing you'll do with that knife is make me a sandwich" keep in mind they were reported for VDM which was occurring at the same time. Not the worst comments but then the female begins talking over VOIP, obviously with a man's voice and the comments then switched to "fucking tranny’" and "oh shit it's a macho-ma'am!" What great RP there - sarcasm intended.

2. The other day I was having a few mic issues mid session so I was using text chat instead of VOIP. At the parking lot I was engaging in conversation to then be asked "can I hear your lovely voice?" to which my typed response was "my voice? you're hearing it right now."

The party in this scenario didn't push the issue and I walked away without trouble but with these two examples, at least in my eyes, show the "fascination" with female player confirmation that has absolutely no bearing on RP and begs the question of why is this happening in the first place. With Randul's suggestion, I do think behaviors that are unnecessary and demoralizing will begin to lessen. Of course there will always be rule breakers or else the player report forum wouldn't exist, but it won't be as rampant as it is presently.