Toxic Sexism On The Server

[Aldarine]

One thing I have noted is that on the Roleplay Guide written by staff, there is specific mention of racist remarks and expressing discomfort. I personally think it would be beneficial to expand on this for sexism as well and enforce guidelines regarding discomfort and how RP scenes should navigate following expressed concern. I know people don't like the idea of more rules but it would at least make it something enforceable as long as a process is followed. My goal is never to alter the fun for somebody on the server and push for rules that will limit people unfairly. I'm a huge advocate for equal enjoyment and respect among all players. I've met some wonderful people in this community, some who even have characters that gracefully toe the line with sexism. I would just like to be more inclusion especially as a heavy roleplay server that prides itself on quality rp and having such a large player base.

[Ridley]

On 7/10/2019 at 6:11 AM, Kyle White Raven said:

An issue that exclusively affects one portion of the player base, nothing that can be done AT THE MOMENT because of the lack of rules and regulation but I guess there is ''no fix'' in your eyes.

 

I wonder if the racism clause hadn't been written if you would say that there is ''no fix'' for a player being called the n word multiple times and people not stopping even after being told OOC'ly... The point of this thread is to discuss the issue and come up with solutions going forward, but I guess that's hard for some.

If it's in-character for somebody to say "nigger" then I don't see an issue. Similarly, if it's in-character for somebody to catcall or harass women (and it probably will be; half of you roleplay blatant gang-bangers or people otherwise not known for proper etiquette) I still see no issue. This is Grand Theft Auto; it's a near-certainty you will roleplay with characters best described as the absolute detritus of human society. If parts of that make you uncomfortable you always have the power to leave that particular roleplay situation, or if the player insists on following you and being annoying, file a report to the admin team. What are they going to do? Cry because you wouldn't stick around and be called "roastie" or "cunt" fifty times?

The only way to improve this situation is to cite a rule already in place: if someone is insufferable OOC, file a complaint against them. Anything further will just give certain groups or characters advanced privileges that don't do anything to improve RP.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Ridley

[Aldarine]

29 minutes ago, Ridley said:

If it's in-character for somebody to say "nigger" then I don't see an issue. Similarly, if it's in-character for somebody to catcall or harass women (and it probably will be; half of you roleplay blatant gang-bangers or people otherwise not known for proper etiquette) I still see no issue. This is Grand Theft Auto; it's a near-certainty you will roleplay with characters best described as the absolute detritus of human society. If parts of that make you uncomfortable you always have the power to leave that particular roleplay situation, or if the player insists on following you and being annoying, file a report to the admin team. What are they going to do? Cry because you wouldn't stick around and be called "roastie" or "cunt" fifty times?

The only way to improve this situation is to cite a rule already in place: if someone is insufferable OOC, file a complaint against them. Anything further will just give certain groups or characters advanced privileges that don't do anything to improve RP.

I still really don't think you get the overall point of this post. There is presently a targeted group of players on the server and we are here to try to find possible solutions to make the server a more welcoming place while not stripping away roleplay freedoms. You say "file a report to the admin team" yet as it stands, there is nothing to report because no rules have been technically broken. There are no rules or guidelines in place for some of the behavior that occurs which is the ultimate issue. Also, a lot of said behavior is over the top and has absolutely no connection to the backstory of said characters. It's a lot of people being offensive just because they can and there is nothing stopping them. Add to that that reporting on the forums as the behavior is now would take more reporting hours than play hours.

And no... this is not Grand Theft Auto, this is the ECRP server, two very different things. Players are held to standards and rules here.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Aldarine

[Ridley]

39 minutes ago, Aldarine said:

IThere is presently a targeted group of players on the server and we are here to try to find possible solutions to make the server a more welcoming place while not stripping away roleplay freedoms. You say "file a report to the admin team" yet as it stands, there is nothing to report because no rules have been technically broken. There are no rules or guidelines in place for some of the behavior that occurs which is the ultimate issue.

"It is prohibited to intimidate players from playing on the server or to continuously harass them in the game for OOC reasons to purposely make their game experience poor."

There's the rule. If someone is breaking it somehow, like continuously annoying you OOC because you're a woman, you can file a complaint using the above.

[Cyrus Raven]

1 hour ago, Ridley said:

If it's in-character for somebody to say "nigger" then I don't see an issue. Similarly, if it's in-character for somebody to catcall or harass women (and it probably will be; half of you roleplay blatant gang-bangers or people otherwise not known for proper etiquette) I still see no issue. This is Grand Theft Auto; it's a near-certainty you will roleplay with characters best described as the absolute detritus of human society. If parts of that make you uncomfortable you always have the power to leave that particular roleplay situation, or if the player insists on following you and being annoying, file a report to the admin team. What are they going to do? Cry because you wouldn't stick around and be called "roastie" or "cunt" fifty times?

The only way to improve this situation is to cite a rule already in place: if someone is insufferable OOC, file a complaint against them. Anything further will just give certain groups or characters advanced privileges that don't do anything to improve RP.

mfw not being able to say ''nigger'' is giving a privilege to someone 

[Aldarine]

33 minutes ago, Ridley said:

"It is prohibited to intimidate players from playing on the server or to continuously harass them in the game for OOC reasons to purposely make their game experience poor."

There's the rule. If someone is breaking it somehow, like continuously annoying you OOC because you're a woman, you can file a complaint using the above.

Again, it is happening ICly not OOC though, as stated before, it picks up when VOIP is used confirming my OOC gender. Along with this as I've along with others have stated, more time would be spent recording and reporting just to be met with "it's my roleplay" as a reason. You can chose to believe there is not a present issue if you please. Judging from the post reception I would be inclined to say that multiple people have seen or experienced this behavior. Combine that with the lack of reporting will show you that it's not an easily reportable thing right now.

Your points are respectfully noted but unfortunately not sufficient to solving the actual issue at hand.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Aldarine

[Ridley]

3 minutes ago, Aldarine said:

Again, it is happening ICly not OOC though, as stated before, it picks up when VOIP is used confirming my OOC gender. Along with this as I've along with others have stated, more time would be spent recording and reporting just to be met with "it's my roleplay" as a reason. You can chose to believe there is not a present issue if you please. Judging from the post reception I would be inclined to say that multiple people have seen or experienced this behavior. Combine that with the lack of reporting will show you that it's not an easily reportable thing right now.

Are you complaining about OOC harassment or IC harassment? One is against the rules and the admin team can handle it; the other is something you can opt out of if it makes you uncomfortable. Both problems have solutions that you may use right now. And if you think these two options don't work, why would you demand more rules if the current ones are, apparently, not being enforced properly?

This is why I mentioned earlier we're missing vital details. It's hard to sympathize with vague accusations of omnipresent sexism.

[Aldarine]

1 minute ago, Ridley said:

Are you complaining about OOC harassment or IC harassment? One is against the rules and the admin team can handle it; the other is something you can opt out of if it makes you uncomfortable. Both problems have solutions that you may use right now. And if you think these two options don't work, why would you demand more rules if the current ones are, apparently, not being enforced properly?

This is why I mentioned earlier we're missing vital details. It's hard to sympathize with vague accusations of omnipresent sexism.

I‘d advise you to start back from the very first post and read through carefully so that you may be better able to understand the complicated nature of the issue at hand.

[Malcolm Carter]

Just now, Ridley said:

It's hard to sympathize with vague accusations of omnipresent sexism.

It's actually very easy, most of us witness it daily on the server. You are being strangely defensive, don't you think female players have better insight and experience of the issue?

I'm just staggered that you would spend so much time arguing against the point of this well intentioned and important thread

[Ridley]

17 minutes ago, Malcolm Carter said:

It's actually very easy, most of us witness it daily on the server. You are being strangely defensive, don't you think female players have better insight and experience of the issue?

I'm just staggered that you would spend so much time arguing against the point of this well intentioned and important thread

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the OP's issue is as commonplace as he's implied. I get the feeling we won't see any either. All I've seen is pleas to re-read posts that didn't make sense during the first read through, let alone several times after.

[Cyrus Raven]

29 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Are you complaining about OOC harassment or IC harassment? One is against the rules and the admin team can handle it; the other is something you can opt out of if it makes you uncomfortable. Both problems have solutions that you may use right now. And if you think these two options don't work, why would you demand more rules if the current ones are, apparently, not being enforced properly?

This is why I mentioned earlier we're missing vital details. It's hard to sympathize with vague accusations of omnipresent sexism.

You seem to have a mindset that unless a problem is OOC then there is no problem at all and people should ''just deal with it'', we've discussed why this is not an ideal solution and OP has described that this is a daily thing, not something that can be ''avoided''. You insist on bringing up the same arguments and fail to address our points to your original reply.

The reason why I brought up the racism rule was because you seem to think that there is currently no rule to regulate aspects or RP there should never be any rule no matter the problems that arise from that. In essence, you think that any restriction on RP is bad no matter the subject (Nazism, racism, homophobia, torture, ERP) which is a view you can hold, but just know that this isn't a view that many other roleplayers will agree with, just look at literally any RP community in any game ever, there is always without fault at least a rule with regards to racism or homophobia and the reason for this is because we understand that certain groups of people in online gaming communities are affected (just like in real life) by these issues.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Kyle White Raven

[Aldarine]

3 minutes ago, Ridley said:

I've seen no evidence whatsoever that the OP's issue is as commonplace as he's implied. I get the feeling we won't see any either. All I've seen is pleas to re-read posts that didn't make sense during the first read through, let alone several times after.

With all due respect:

1. OP is a female, thank you very much.

2. This is a community discussion post not a report, therefore no "evidence" is required. What is occurring is an explanation of behaviors in an effort to get community feedback and possibly improve the server.

3. Many reactions to the original post come from confirmed female players.

4. If you would like any form of evidence, I direct you to some of the following comments in this thread:

"I have a few female friends and it always sickens me the way they are talked to by the obviously younger folks."
"I can see exactly what you're describing when I'm RPing with you (or any other female ECRP member). The constant harrassment is absurd and I've played on a female alt for a few hours and already got a small taste of what it's like."
"I can say from witnessing past events, that a lot of what you're saying is true and I agree... it mostly happens to only females playing females, and even females playing males, but not males playing females, and I understand why you identify it as an issue"
"Lots of people can be very thirsty ICly. I have noticed as I mainly RP with Shadow"

5. I wonder why you are so defensive especially after looking over your profile which shows me you created this account just a few days ago approximately 30 minutes prior to commenting on this post and this post being the only one you have had interaction with.

6. I ask that if you have no input to provide aside from what you have stated already, that you navigate to another thread. I would like to have a conversation here regarding possible solutions, not to go back and forth with somebody that is slightly oblivious to an issue at hand being explained by a female player.

[Ridley]

20 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

just look at literally any RP community in any game ever, there is always without fault at least a rule with regards to racism or homophobia

Wow, I never thought about it that way. How could I have been so blind? Truly the freedom to brutally murder people, rob them or engage in life-ruining, community-destroying criminal enterprise is fine, but calling someone "nigger" or "faggot" when character-appropriate is simply too much for the Grand Theft Auto universe. And disrespecting women? I'm surprised there aren't massive penalties for that already, it's far worse than shooting somebody in the face for his wallet.

Thank you for enlightening me. 

[Cyrus Raven]

14 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Wow, I never thought about it that way. How could I have been so blind? Truly the freedom to brutally murder people, rob them or engage in life-ruining, community-destroying criminal enterprise is fine, but calling someone "nigger" or "faggot" when character-appropriate is simply too much for the Grand Theft Auto universe. And disrespecting women? I'm surprised there aren't massive penalties for that already, it's far worse than shooting somebody in the face for his wallet.

Thank you for enlightening me. 

Wow dude thanks for letting me know that playing an online video game that revolves around the cops and robbers theme means that I can get called a ''nigger'' and ''faggot'' for no real purpose, but I guess because we're playing a GTA game everything is ok in your mind 

 

Not even gonna try anymore, it's clear to me that you're either purposely being obtuse or worst yet you unironically see nothing wrong with this... The purpose of bringing up other communities is to outline that they understand that despite the fact that they are hosting a server based on criminals and cops environment even then they have a hard line on racism and homophobia (as well as other aspects) because these issues go beyond a game and affect a big portion people OOC'ly, unlike simply playing a GTA esque game. How are you unable to understand this ?

Edited July 11, 2019 by Kyle White Raven

[Ridley]

2 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Wow dude thanks for letting me know that playing an online video game that revolved around the cops and robbers theme means that I can get called a ''nigger'' and ''faggot'' for no real purpose, but I guess because we're playing a GTA game everything is ok in your mind 

 

Not even gonna try anymore, it's clear to me that you're either purposely being obtuse or worst yet you unironically see nothing wrong with this... The purpose of bringing up other communities is to outline that they understand that despite the fact that they are hosting a server based on criminals and cops environment even then they have a hard line on racism and homophobia (as well as other aspects) because these issues go beyond a game and affect a big portion people OOC'ly, unlike simply playing a GTA esque game. How are you unable to understand this ?

You're right, I don't see any problem. Restricting rude, bigoted or unpleasant characters is senseless. We already have an ample server population of murderers and criminals, both petty and professional, already. Plenty of rapists, too. Enforcing etiquette should be the last thing on anybody's mind (at least in-character), yet here we are, sincerely arguing that female players/characters get special treatment because of their chromosomes. 

Honest question: Why is being bigoted worse than serious crime? Is it really that much worse if someone calls you "faggot" while holding you at gunpoint & making off with your car? If the OP is being harassed out-of-character for being a girl then yes, we should punish for that. But in-character I see no reason to ordain that a crime so heinous it's verboten. 

[Mopop]

Holy shit someone is setting my incel alarm off in here.

[Reckless311]

10 minutes ago, Ridley said:

You're right, I don't see any problem. Restricting rude, bigoted or unpleasant characters is senseless. We already have an ample server population of murderers and criminals, both petty and professional, already. Plenty of rapists, too. Enforcing etiquette should be the last thing on anybody's mind (at least in-character), yet here we are, sincerely arguing that female players/characters get special treatment because of their chromosomes. 

Honest question: Why is being bigoted worse than serious crime? Is it really that much worse if someone calls you "faggot" while holding you at gunpoint & making off with your car? If the OP is being harassed out-of-character for being a girl then yes, we should punish for that. But in-character I see no reason to ordain that a crime so heinous it's verboten. 

So you're ok that allowing this behavior basically making the server so toxic and hostile for women that they'll just stop playing?  I thought inclusivity was the goal and drawing more people in, not forcing them away.  Some of it is expected, but not the constant barrage that a lot of women experience here.  Thankfully this can be discussed openly with rational and open-minded people. 

[Cyrus Raven]

''Honest question: Why is being bigoted worse than serious crime? Is it really that much worse if someone calls you "faggot" while holding you at gunpoint & making off with your car? If the OP is being harassed out-of-character for being a girl then yes, we should punish for that. But in-character I see no reason to ordain that a crime so heinous it's verboten. ''

 

I already answered this. This is what I mean when I say that you aren't reading what others are saying.

''the purpose of bringing up other communities is to outline that they understand that despite the fact that they are hosting a server based on criminals and cops environment even then they have a hard line on racism and homophobia (as well as other aspects) because these issues go beyond a game and affect a big portion people OOC'ly''

Things aren't as black and white as they seem. Players expect to get robbed, they expect people to be offensive or mean, but at the end of the day, some things go beyond the RP and into OOC. Racism is one of those issues. Communities understand that allowing people to have free reign on saying 'nigger'' and ''faggot'' goes beyond ''realism'' and ''RP'' and that it will be used by people with ill intentions to degrade and offend others in-game under the guise of ''RP'' knowing well that the person behind the character is affected by it. 

 

The same applies to sexism, is it within the realm of possibility that criminals would catcall and harass women ? Sure, but at the same time this is a game and an inviting community, if having players constantly doing these types of actions for no apparent RP reason is having an OOC impact on players then I believe we should try and curb this behavior as countless other communities have in the past. Even this community agrees with this line of reasoning as they have clauses for racism, ERP and torture. Adding a rule with regards to sexism would not be out of the norm given the impact it is having.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Kyle White Raven

[Ridley]

12 minutes ago, Reckless311 said:

So you're ok that allowing this behavior basically making the server so toxic and hostile for women that they'll just stop playing?  I thought inclusivity was the goal and drawing more people in, not forcing them away.  Some of it is expected, but not the constant barrage that a lot of women experience here.  Thankfully this can be discussed openly with rational and open-minded people. 

Robbing brand new players trying to fish (or do other mundane starting jobs) does more to chase people away than sporadic bouts of in-character sexism, but that's not going to go away. Just as an example.

The point I'm making is whether you want to call it "Grand Theft Auto" or not, you are playing on a server that enables all manner of terrible, heinous crime. People can already be absolutely terrible here through their characters, undertaking every bad thing you can think of, and they get away with it all the time. Demonizing specific aspects of this crime-ridden environment, such as sexism or racism, is a truly pointless exercise. It's even more pointless when nobody can give any concrete examples or propositions for rule adjustments, other than vague demands to end bigotry.

If players happen to express those sentiments in OOC, and you aren't okay with it, then there is already a rule you can cite to encourage the admin team to take action. Use it rather than limit the sort of characters you can play. God knows we don't need characters becoming even more generic than they already are.

[Cyrus Raven]

2 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Robbing brand new players trying to fish (or do other mundane starting jobs) does more to chase people away than sporadic bouts of in-character sexism, but that's not going to go away. Just as an example.

The point I'm making is whether you want to call it "Grand Theft Auto" or not, you are playing on a server that enables all manner of terrible, heinous crime. People can already be absolutely terrible here through their characters, undertaking every bad thing you can think of, and they get away with it all the time. Demonizing specific aspects of this crime-ridden environment, such as sexism or racism, is a truly pointless exercise. It's even more pointless when nobody can give any concrete examples or propositions for rule adjustments, other than vague demands to end bigotry.

If players happen to express those sentiments in OOC, and you aren't okay with it, then there is already a rule you can cite to encourage the admin team to take action. Use it rather than limit the sort of characters you can play. God knows we don't need characters becoming even more generic than they already are.

These situations are not comparable.

 

One thing is a game being hard to get into from the start and requires grinding and adapting your playstyle to avoid criminals, another thing is being actively harrassed IC'ly for the uncontorlable OOC fact that a player is female. Do you not see the difference? 

 

This is analogous to you telling me ''Your argument is bad because of X Y and Z'' and me turning around and calling you short. One is an attack on an argument that can change and the other is an insult on something that is uncontrollable. Just like potentially driving away players who find the game hard because of criminal activity and grinding is different to driving players away because someone decides to sit around all day to ''RP'' with you by harassing you for something that you have no control over, your sex.

[Reckless311]

12 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Robbing brand new players trying to fish (or do other mundane starting jobs) does more to chase people away than sporadic bouts of in-character sexism, but that's not going to go away. Just as an example.

The point I'm making is whether you want to call it "Grand Theft Auto" or not, you are playing on a server that enables all manner of terrible, heinous crime. People can already be absolutely terrible here through their characters, undertaking every bad thing you can think of, and they get away with it all the time. Demonizing specific aspects of this crime-ridden environment, such as sexism or racism, is a truly pointless exercise. It's even more pointless when nobody can give any concrete examples or propositions for rule adjustments, other than vague demands to end bigotry.

If players happen to express those sentiments in OOC, and you aren't okay with it, then there is already a rule you can cite to encourage the admin team to take action. Use it rather than limit the sort of characters you can play. God knows we don't need characters becoming even more generic than they already are.

You're arguing on a slippery slope.  Yes, those things can drive players away, but as others have said that is PART OF THE GAME.  Rampant harassment is NOT part of the game. 

 

Furthermore, simply because YOU don't see the behavior, doesn't mean it isn't there.  You simply aren't privy to what a lot of the females go through, obviously.  It's very narrow minded to say "I don't see it, so it doesn't exist".  Do you deny that it's raining for someone in a different area of your city if it's not raining in your area?  That's about how silly your argument sounds.  Many people have seen it and it's vile and disgusting.  The crimes you're describing are PART of the game, I don't understand where your disconnect from this argument is.  

[Ridley]

1 hour ago, Reckless311 said:

You're arguing on a slippery slope.  Yes, those things can drive players away, but as others have said that is PART OF THE GAME.  Rampant harassment is NOT part of the game. 

 

Furthermore, simply because YOU don't see the behavior, doesn't mean it isn't there.  You simply aren't privy to what a lot of the females go through, obviously.  It's very narrow minded to say "I don't see it, so it doesn't exist".  Do you deny that it's raining for someone in a different area of your city if it's not raining in your area?  That's about how silly your argument sounds.  Many people have seen it and it's vile and disgusting.  The crimes you're describing are PART of the game, I don't understand where your disconnect from this argument is.  

Sorry, but this isn't apples and oranges. If your end goal is an inclusive or enjoyable game, people who skirt the line of what's acceptable (such as targeting and robbing new players specifically) impedes that far more than sexism, something that is both less frequent and more easily avoided (not using your microphone vs. being a new player.)

Honestly this thread has no reason to exist at this point. The original poster fled, there's already a rule in place against OOC harassment and everything else is arguing semantics.

[Malcolm Carter]

13 minutes ago, Ridley said:

Sorry, but this isn't apples and oranges. If your end goal is an inclusive or enjoyable game, people who skirt the line of what's acceptable (such as targeting and robbing new players specifically) impedes that far more than sexism, something that is both less frequent and more easily avoided (not using your microphone vs. being a new player.)

Honestly this thread has no reason to exist at this point. The original poster fled, there's already a rule in place against OOC harassment and everything else is arguing semantics.

So now you're suggesting that female players shouldn't use their microphones if they don't want to deal with sexism? I seriously can't tell if you're trolling. You are literally admitting it's an OOC problem.

The issue of robbing new players is an entirely separate one, go make a thread about it if you think it's important. I'm sure you will get a lot of support.

[Aldarine]

I'm unsure of what you mean when you say "the original poster fled" because I'm right here. I've had absolutely nothing to say in response to you due to your ignorance. I have already stated that if you do not have anything more to add to the conversation as you've been repeating yourself, then I suggest you steer your eyes to a different thread. There are clearly people on this thread partaking in the discussion about what it was original meant for - people whom also believe in the issue and think it should be looked at. Your opinion and the fact that you don't see an issue is noted. I obviously disagree as do the others on this thread.

[Mopop]

You're arguing with a troll at this point.