Yputi Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) Hello! Lately I got scammed at the bank. Now this is something that has been discussed a lot I noticed. My first point I want to suggest is the following: Not too long ago the rulebook got updated. Somewhere at the beginning of this year I believe. I did read through the rule book completely as the gang where 1 of my characers is in even asked us to read before logging in at all. On the forum, in the section where you can also find the rule book youo see this message: Quote Eclipse Roleplay community members, It is with great pleasure we announce the release of our new Server and Roleplay Rules handbook which is now in place of the previous list of Eclipse Rules. We believe the additions and changes made will provide a more clear and concise understanding for players and a more clear line for administrative staff to understand / enforce rules more uniformly. If anyone has any questions regarding the contents of the new Server and Roleplay Rules please don't hesitate to ask questions and create discussion so our community can work together to understand, practice, and enforce these new rules in order to create a better role play experience. I highlighted the part what I want to specify now. When I was about to use the /transfervehicle command to sell a vehicle due to the market being full, I wanted to make sure that you could scam or not at NCZ's. I did see some announcements about it, but I could not find anything back in the rulebook regarding scamming exept for this 1 thing: "Players may not scam or deceive other players out of character for their property." The word "scam" does not return anywhere else in the rule book. When I did a /report in game to ask a member, which ECRP promotes to do in the message I quoted earlier if you have questions, I asked if you can scam at the bank. It turns out, the support staff who accepted my /report was not aware of the announcement made on 12 april that states you can scam at bank, so I was told you can not scam at the bank. I do believe it's very hard for people to enforce rules that are not stated in the actual rule book. The reason why I believe this is hard is that even support staff is not aware of this and I as a part of the community was not aswell. There was even an announcement on the server on 29 april who also stated you can not scam in NCZ's, making it even more clear that ECRP staff is confused or even totally not aware of this rule. To try and make it more clear why I think this is very weird and confusing I quote the part where this "rule" is stated: Quote SCAMMING & GAMBLING IN NO CRIME ZONES This has been a question for many and we know that our players have been told different things by members of staff, so we want to clear it up once and for all. Playing gambling games in No Crime Zones is not allowed if you are doing it for any form of asset (money/vehicles etc) as it's considered as Illegal Gambling and that would be a violation of our No Crime Zone rule. Scamming is No Crime Zones will no longer be seen as a No Crime Zone Violation. If you're trying to find ways to dodge taxes of selling houses or cars, that's entirely on your own responsibility and we will not be reversing any sales or refunding any money moving forward. If you want to have a safe way of selling cars, houses and other equipment, use the scripts that we have in place for that. We hope that this will clear things up and that we can move forward from this topic. To be clear, this is stated on the forum in the development section. I honestly really wonder why in the world this is not in the rule book. How can rules be enforced if they are not in the book of rules. This basically tells me that you will have to read every development update to get to know what rule is added. Even for new players this is a pain in the ass. There was also never an announcement made about this in Discord: The last thing I want to mention is that when you make a forum report, you are asked to post the specific rule.... Well, I do not believe that is really possible this way. Whats even worse is that people are actively abusing this, even saying "look in the rule book"... and there you go, 200K gone. I would really really really appreciate that this will be added to the rule book at the NCZ's section and atcually I hope it will be done with care and thought, also removing the typo's in the "rule" mentioned in the development section. It can be really simple as this: Quote Scamming in No Crime Zones is not a No Crime Zone Violation. The scams should be done fully IC. Examples of what is not allowed: - After receiving the money of the victim, putting the money on the bank to abuse the rule players can not demand others to take money from the ATM. - After receiving money or other assets, the scammer should not log off. This will be considered combat logging. I don't want to roam around the forum to find a rule where there is a rule book. I would like to see all the rules in one place and I believe this will clear it up a lot, also stopping even Support staff giving the false info as the rule book currently states that you can not commit any actions considered crimes in NCZ's... And scamming is a crime. This not only ruins New Player experience as I bet newer players will be like "Oh! Let's check the development page on the forum to see what rules are there next to the ones in the rule book!" but even I after playing for so long on this server, basically playing daily got my experience ruined. Its for me upsetting to see this as a reason refund requests getting denied: This really shows that its expected that you are aware of the development page on the forum which was not an announcement. My second point I want to suggest is the following: Maybe also use the server announcements more for this kind of things (rule changes) instead of notifying people who already spent €100,- + to donate to the server Extra comment I added: Quote I would like to add that there is basically no way after you got scammed to get your stuff back. I asked (although I was pretty sure) if you can force a player that scammed you outside of a NCZ to give the stuff back, but basically you are done once its transferred. Long story short, the scammed basically always has an adventage as you can't force them to take money out of ATM's, you can't protect yourself in the NCZ due to the fact scamming is the only "crime" aloowed so you can't put a gun to his head for example and you can't force people RP'ingly to give the stuff back once they left the NCZ with your assets. Not to mention the fact that people advertise they are buying vehicles/houses through weazel and then try to scam these people which is actually against the rules according to this rule: I do agree that scamming should not be removed at all out of NCZ's, but again, I would like to have the rule properly added to the rule book atleast. Edited August 8, 2019 by Yputi 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levi208 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 +1. I personally even think they need to bring back the no-scam in NCZ. It's quite frankly ridiculous right now, I'm hearing more and more people getting scammed when buying houses. Having their money taken right at the bank and then the guy just logs off. I don't see even slightly how that's acceptable RP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yputi Posted May 1, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Levi208 said: +1. I personally even think they need to bring back the no-scam in NCZ. It's quite frankly ridiculous right now, I'm hearing more and more people getting scammed when buying houses. Having their money taken right at the bank and then the guy just logs off. I don't see even slightly how that's acceptable RP. Good comment. Will update my idea of what they should add regarding to this comment actually as this made me think about that aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke kuperus Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 Tbh i do not agree with the rule at all, Scamming in NCZ should be not allowed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_fly Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 +1 It shouldn't be allowed to scam people in NCZ, thats just fucking ridiculous in my opion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yputi Posted May 1, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) On 5/1/2019 at 7:48 PM, John_fly said: +1 It shouldn't be allowed to scam people in NCZ, thats just fucking ridiculous in my opion. On 5/1/2019 at 7:40 PM, Luke kuperus said: Tbh i do not agree with the rule at all, Scamming in NCZ should be not allowed. I think there is a point against this indeed. I agree with you guys. The problem with accepting 1 crime in a NCZ will leave the victim in a disadvantage (like I experienced). You can not do anything back really. You can't just hold a gun out as a hang member being scammed. Only thing where you can do something is the second the person drive off in the car they scammed from you. My point is, there are other rules that restrict you from getting it back somehow. For example the rule that you cant demand someone to take money out of an ATM and stuff. Its annoying 1 crime is allowed in a NCZ and because of the other stuff that isnt allowed you can barely fight back and you will always have a disadventage. I do think it should be allowed to scam in NCZ's, but I am hoping it will be at least added to the actual rule book. Edited August 8, 2019 by Yputi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowCargo Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 In the real world It's called fraud, and people go to jail for long periods of time for commiting it. I honestly have no idea why major fraud in game should be considered a 'non-crime' in a NCZ..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan_Ledger Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGanja Posted May 4, 2019 Report Share Posted May 4, 2019 Yputi man you nailed that one into the board. I've only been around a couple months or something like that but the only people I ever hear getting scammed are new players. Common sense to some isn't common to all. +1 no scamming in ncz should if not already be a thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linden Posted May 7, 2019 Report Share Posted May 7, 2019 Rules need updating and clarity. New rules need to be added to improve server health due to the number of people on it problems are expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yputi Posted May 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) I would like to add that there is basically no way after you got scammed to get your stuff back. I asked (although I was pretty sure) if you can force a player that scammed you outside of a NCZ to give the stuff back, but basically you are done once its transferred. Long story short, the scammed basically always has an adventage as you can't force them to take money out of ATM's, you can't protect yourself in the NCZ due to the fact scamming is the only "crime" aloowed so you can't put a gun to his head for example and you can't force people RP'ingly to give the stuff back once they left the NCZ with your assets. Not to mention the fact that people advertise they are buying vehicles/houses through weazel and then try to scam these people which is actually against the rules according to this rule: I do agree that scamming should not be removed at all out of NCZ's, but again, I would like to have the rule properly added to the rule book atleast. Edited August 8, 2019 by Yputi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrockOlly Posted May 8, 2019 Report Share Posted May 8, 2019 There's no rules against scamming, should the something you're allowed to do be in the rulebook? The reason we put that in said development update, is because at the time it was a hot topic, and it needed clarity. Illegal gambling is a crime, as per the penal code, and thus you can't do it in a No Crime Zone. If it is NOT in the rulebook, You CAN generally do it, you did not have to 'scour' the forums for anything. There's no rule saying you can't scam, so you can. If after all that thinking, you still got scammed because you thought it wasnt allowed, you should've been more careful and/or asked someone about it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yputi Posted May 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, BrockOlly said: There's no rules against scamming, should the something you're allowed to do be in the rulebook? The reason we put that in said development update, is because at the time it was a hot topic, and it needed clarity. Illegal gambling is a crime, as per the penal code, and thus you can't do it in a No Crime Zone. If it is NOT in the rulebook, You CAN generally do it, you did not have to 'scour' the forums for anything. There's no rule saying you can't scam, so you can. If after all that thinking, you still got scammed because you thought it wasnt allowed, you should've been more careful and/or asked someone about it? you are right, its not in the rule book, meaning the NCZ rule would be in affect. Scamming is an exception that is not included in the rulebook. I already got in touch with a second support staff who thought you can not scam in NCZ because of this. Scamming is a crime, NCZ states you can not commit any actions considered a crime... Here is where it goes wrong. Edited May 8, 2019 by Yputi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeistuoliZ Posted May 8, 2019 Report Share Posted May 8, 2019 +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Costana Posted June 21, 2019 Report Share Posted June 21, 2019 a big +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarine Posted June 21, 2019 Report Share Posted June 21, 2019 (edited) +1 Really well written Yputi as always! Personally I don't think scamming should be allowed in a NCZ. This is something that anybody would retaliate to and if it happens in a NCZ, as you stated, there is no real way to retaliate or else you are breaking the NCZ rules. It's really unfairly balanced and does harm a lot of players. With the opposing answers received from staff about it, perhaps in connection to the rules there should be a link to server wide decisions/clarification. As stated before, scamming in a NCZ was a "hot topic" so wouldn't it be in the best interest of the community to link this in the rule book - perhaps as something that states: "Players are responsible for staying up to date with decisions and clarification regarding rules." Follow that there could be a link to a simple page (be it on the forums or a Google Doc) with outcome decisions to "hot topic" issues. If something like this was done, then all information would be accessible in one area and it will lessen a lot of confusion. Edited June 21, 2019 by Aldarine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighTV Posted June 22, 2019 Report Share Posted June 22, 2019 +1 Illegal scamming should not be allowed in the NCZ Its important to know that not all scams are Illegal. (For instance Multi level Marketing) If an ILLEGAL scam happens in an NCZ why isn't it getting punished? NCZ's have Audio and video recordings all over presumably so why couldn't the victim of the crime get justice with this evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reckless311 Posted June 23, 2019 Report Share Posted June 23, 2019 On 5/8/2019 at 3:41 AM, BrockOlly said: There's no rules against scamming, should the something you're allowed to do be in the rulebook? The reason we put that in said development update, is because at the time it was a hot topic, and it needed clarity. Illegal gambling is a crime, as per the penal code, and thus you can't do it in a No Crime Zone. If it is NOT in the rulebook, You CAN generally do it, you did not have to 'scour' the forums for anything. There's no rule saying you can't scam, so you can. If after all that thinking, you still got scammed because you thought it wasnt allowed, you should've been more careful and/or asked someone about it? +1 No crime allowed should mean NO crime. Hence it's a variation from the rules that two crimes are allowed in ncz's. Fraud and tax evasion. It's contradictory to the very name of no crime zone, so yes it should be added in this instance as it is a special exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexalex303 Posted June 23, 2019 Report Share Posted June 23, 2019 12 hours ago, HighTV said: +1 Illegal scamming should not be allowed in the NCZ Its important to know that not all scams are Illegal. (For instance Multi level Marketing) If an ILLEGAL scam happens in an NCZ why isn't it getting punished? NCZ's have Audio and video recordings all over presumably so why couldn't the victim of the crime get justice with this evidence? Because it completely kills taxation in the form of the house sale system, high end, low end, etc. It also kills loan companies. I've seen much much better RP since scams even in NCZs became allowed. You actually have people ask for collateral if you loan them money, and be suspicious, cause they know you can scam them, just as it should. In the past people would be like come to bank and I'll loan you anything no worries. It's a crutch for bad RP and I'm glad it's gone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durand The Philosopher Posted June 23, 2019 Report Share Posted June 23, 2019 +1 Yeah, this is definietly something that should be more clear. Me and my friends were trying to buy a house and had no idea the scripts are even at play. Thus we got scammed of off our hard earned 60k. We have read through the whole rulebook and asked on discord but nothing pointed us in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizzidy Posted June 26, 2019 Report Share Posted June 26, 2019 +1 I made a similar post about this where they keep making these off the cuff judgement to the rulebooks but the rulebook we teach everyone to go by contradicts those rulings. I believe the scamming rule is just stupid, we are using "scamming can happen in real life" to justify allowing CRIME in a NO CRIME ZONE.... and usually the people saying it is okay are the same ones who say "Don't compare everything to real life" a ton of selective realism used to justify this kinda of stuff... if its an NCZ make it an NCZ, transferring a vehicle by hand may "dodge taxes" but its also the only way to sell a vehicle half the time because the lots are full. Make no crime zones no crime, not some crime, or a few crimes... and update the rulebook so things like "You can ignore commands shouted from a moving vehicle" are updated and known and people don't have to deep dive into archived forum posts to get those rulings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jowebb7 Posted June 27, 2019 Report Share Posted June 27, 2019 +1 for rules clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alverin Posted June 28, 2019 Report Share Posted June 28, 2019 (edited) +1 Honestly I'm surprised this is still an issue on a server as large as Eclipse. It's pretty glaring and obvious, the meta of the servers rules needs to be re-examined and adjusted. I actually spoke with a staff member the other day about Refunds and scamming, which I think should be a thing implemented into the game. The economy of a server is very important in games where money is equivalent to power. The fact that someone can scam you for 100k, log out and get a short ban as a result, is a bit ridiculous. What's even more ridiculous is the fact that you might not be able to get your money back through a refund, as per the conversation I had with a staff member. Why would you ever design your rules to favor rule breakers? I get that it may be hard to look over every single thing but scamming is really popular in these types of games and should be examined and experimented with from the inception. Put yourself in your new players shoes. Who would want to work for hours doing some sort of job just to get their money scammed from them and then told "Scamming is an IC issue you can't be refunded even if the player logged out after scamming you." I'm not sure if this is the opinion of all of the staff, but it only takes 1 for it to be relevant, as per the rules. On 5/8/2019 at 12:41 AM, BrockOlly said: There's no rules against scamming, should the something you're allowed to do be in the rulebook? The reason we put that in said development update, is because at the time it was a hot topic, and it needed clarity. Illegal gambling is a crime, as per the penal code, and thus you can't do it in a No Crime Zone. If it is NOT in the rulebook, You CAN generally do it, you did not have to 'scour' the forums for anything. There's no rule saying you can't scam, so you can. If after all that thinking, you still got scammed because you thought it wasnt allowed, you should've been more careful and/or asked someone about it? What's up with this response? It just seems like some sort of reactive response not taking into account the players perspective. The issue here comes from the fact that scamming is a crime and the NCZ rule says that no crimes may be committed in the NCZ and then there's a development update that contradicts the rule. You have to go out of your way to find this contradiction, otherwise you're safe to assume Scamming is a crime and crime cannot occur in NCZ's. So YES there is a rule against scamming but you guys made an addendum in the form of a developmental update when it should have been in the rules to begin with, while coupled with a update. Edited June 28, 2019 by Alverin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BellamyJames Posted June 29, 2019 Report Share Posted June 29, 2019 On 5/1/2019 at 12:39 PM, Yputi said: Lately I got scammed at the bank. Now this is something that has been discussed a lot I noticed. Going to play devil's advocate here... Selling Cars or Houses under the table is an illegal action itself. Doing so you forgo paying taxes on the item. So even if you didn't get scammed it's still an illegal transaction that you're making at the bank so it shouldn't be done in a NCZ anyways. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jowebb7 Posted June 29, 2019 Report Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BellamyJames said: Going to play devil's advocate here... Selling Cars or Houses under the table is an illegal action itself. Doing so you forgo paying taxes on the item. So even if you didn't get scammed it's still an illegal transaction that you're making at the bank so it shouldn't be done in a NCZ anyways. So if there are no spots at high end, we can not legally sell a car? Is it actually illegal to sell a car without using high or low end? Edited June 29, 2019 by jowebb7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
