Alverin

I'm not sure I completely understand the CK thing. It looks like you're giving the players the option to CK or not? I'm sure there are some players who would accept a CK for some sort of role play sense, but that will be a minority. I figure most people will decline a CK because of the negatives it brings a long with it unless you force them into some CK contract. In which case, it seems weird to have the CK thing be there at all. My personal suggestion is to just make death a good bit more costly. One thing that needs to be reworked on the server is the economy because you've got a decent amount of money sinks but they're positioned in ways where you feel like you're not moving anywhere (Oh I bought a new outfit for the 50th time because my old one was glitching out). One money sink that I think could provide a great boon to the "seriousness" or rather the dramatization and meta of the server would be costly death. This would make it so that dying was and should be seriously avoided by all parties. It's also sort of a buff to criminals which they've been wanting since getting sentenced to several hours in prison each. I feel like as a criminal you should be allowed to really "put the screws" to someone if you want/need to. Part of that is making people "pay". With the crime system it's a risk/reward. If you want to have seriously impactful situations come up between players that they can tell stories about in the future, you need to set up a "nuclear" option for everyone involved. Something that's more real than getting killed and respawning.

I'll be in Public 3 discord if anyone wants to discuss this update via voice. I'm hoping I can get a few people to convert their opinions with a good argument. I invite those who are particularly passionate about the reversal of this update to challenge me here.

+1 The clothing system and accessory system in general needs a overhaul.

How is there nothing to do as a civilian? I literally went to a wedding my first day on the server. There was a dirtbike race a couple of days later. There's several civillian jobs to occupy. Crim rp isn't dying off because there's more time to rp in prison. It's dying off because the systems implemented for them don't facilitate interaction.

I would say the current system for dealing with problem players works about 70% of the time. By that I mean it's 70% effective in keeping bad people at bay and stopping them from exploiting certain situations. The truth is, the rules are only as good as the moderators who enforce them, with a server so big it becomes hard. My personal suggestion would be to implement some automated systems that keep track of things like damage to other players and killings, if that's even possible. If not, you put the players in charge. The mods should really only step in during extreme cases. The newest update we got uncapped prison sentences. One of the biggest fears of any RP server is that it becomes a DM fest. The only thing that stops that is the prospect of a ban. But I believe there is another way, That's the fact that you can- A. Charge people for crimes the commit and give them a sentence worthy of their crimes and B. Build a Rap Sheet that allows for longer sentences for repeat offenders. Then you can even augment this with Probation, so let's say you've got this guy in a car who's goin' around CARDMing. Normally you'd have to contact a moderator, make a report, the mod would shadow him then eventually ban him. With the arrest system you just see what his charges are. If you can give him on running over 11 people, you just have charges in place for mass murder or terrorism. These specifically are reserved for people who are using weapons to put more than 5 peoples lives at risk at once. Those people get an additional 5 hours for every person they harmed. So we're looking at 45 minutes per attempted murder and 5 hours per terroristic attack. That's a 38 hour and 15 minutes prison sentence. Effectively a ban. And if he acts up in jail just lock him in his cell (or solitary confinement). Now the Cop faction has something to do and take care of, we have less of that bullshit and the Mods can focus on RP stuff, events, ect. Plus they're not always dealing with the negativity. If this were to be the case, I'd say it would be completely fine to remove the DM clause. Why punish for DMing when the cops will eventually do this for you? We still hold people to an RP standard, but this lightens up the shoulders of criminals who can now inflict a real punishment on their enemies without the fear of an OOC retaliation. It's not like a savvy player can't do this already to a certain extent. I'm sure there are ways to kill players that can get passed the moderators or at least look legit enough to last a while in debate around the forum post regarding it. After all I don't think you can log /everything/. I'm not sure on this though. Anyways, what I'm getting at is we need to design a system that makes people act the way we want, not a RULE that makes people act the way we want. It makes everything more organic and does away with A LOT of paperwork, or should I say forumwork.

There are plenty of things in the game that don't make /realistic/ sense but they make game balance sense. This is part of playing a game however. One glaring one is the fact that while you're speeding in a car that you stole you somehow get tickets issued to you. I'm sure you can figure out why we allow this to be the case. However with the GPS and Map, do you think you'd still be calling it an inconvenience if it wasn't a part of the original game and instead was a feature added? Imagine GTA 5 didn't have a GPS or Map system and NBDY himself added these things to the game with the clause that you had to buy them from the store. Would you be grateful? It's impossible to say but fun to ponder. I personally believe the way we're interpreting the change seems to be a punishment instead of a reward, and the interferes with the rational assessment of how the game should be changed to create an immersive and challenging experience.

Do you consider someone getting banned for rping as a mass murderer them getting "punished for my preference"? I say no to the 8 hour cap and I would say yes to the offline tick if it weren't possible for you to just hop on another character and play them instead. Perhaps I'm somewhat receptive of this idea however. I don't think you should be forced to RP in the prison as the prison isn't completely ready for that yet. However the sentencing time is very crucial to the change that the developers are trying to make in the server, which is changing the META of criminality.

Hey thanks for thanking me, I'm happy to contribute, I hope the developers catch wind of my suggestions and that some day we can sit down over discord and talk about it.

This is wrong, here's a link to a Criminal Defense Attorney saying the exact opposite, he actually says "you are charged with five separate offenses of the crime and can be punished for each one separately" https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/what-do-a--count--mean-in-a-crime---1061187.html The person I'm quoting is Criminal Defense Attorney W. Scott Brannen in response to this persons question. It seems others also corroborate this. Furthermore, The Shouse California Law Group seem to disagree with you on this as well, stating you get 11 counts of murder for firing at multiple residences. That's the last Example under the header "That you intended to kill that person" https://www.shouselaw.com/attempted-murder.html It also seems having multiple counts of attempted murder would get you a longer sentence. You use the phrase "Charge Stacking" to refer to the scenario you painted "shooting at 7 different cops" but that's not what Charge Stacking is. Charge Stacking is when a cop thinks of every possible crime you could have committed while there and apply's all of the charges he comes up with. 7 charges of attempted murder in this instance would totally be valid if you had a fire-arm and were returning fire at cops surrounding you. Even if you thought you were only going to hit two. See the SCLG link for citation. I would like to continue to contend, this has nothing to do with double jeopardy since double jeopardy is relative to the same charge. If you traded fire with police officers and they charged you several counts of attempted murder, they could, and you might get convicted for that, but they'd have to prove it. The judicial process is not currently in our system as of now, correct me if I'm wrong. So we assume you committed the crime when the police officer books you. Police officers can place whatever charges they want when they book you. It's up to them and they usually try to put as many as they can. If you stab two people at a bar fight you're getting charges for two counts of aggravated assault. And no where in the history of anywhere has anyone ever argued that Double Jeopardy would apply there. You go on to correct yourself but also contradict yourself almost instantly later in your post when you say "You cannot be TRIED in court" for the same crime, yes, but if you shoot at two different police officers in a shoot out, you attempted to murder both of them and you will be TRIED once but during the TRIAL you will be CHARGED with two COUNTS of attempted murder. So just to clarify, it seems like you're mixing up being TRIED in court with getting charged for 7 crimes. You can be TRIED in court once for 7 Counts of Attempted murder. And if you fired into a group of police officers in which 7 were present, you'd probably get 7 attempted murder charges. Now to the META. You bring up a few instances in which Criminal RP might degrade because players won't want to get caught. I feel like you're not giving people the benefit of the doubt here. You're actually saying they're too dim to realize when they get pulled over that 8 hours is a shorter sentence than 18 and it'd be better to take the charge on the chin than get into a shoot out and stack an additional 7 attempted murder charges onto your rap sheet. This is just really basic math, not much to wrestle with here. You're telling me a persons friends are gunna ram raid a cop on his way to arrest him and risk getting several hours in the cans themselves too? How often are they going to do this? Your argument is a bit counter intuitive in the sense that even if we /DID/ see a spike in this behavior, it would peter out or at least equalize with current behavior since they wouldn't be able to do these things while in jail anyways, since we have longer sentences that's just more time they CAN'T disobey the law. Congratulations on your third year, keep your head up and continue your profession with passion brother.

I see, in my system the import method would be scrapped and armor would either be strictly through drugs or attained similarly to Weapons Crafting. Thanks for the clarification!

Oof, hate to break it to you but this isn't what Double Jeopardy means. You're taking it to mean you can't be convicted of the same charge twice, what double jeopardy ACTUALLY means is once you're acquitted you can't be RE-CHARGED for that offense again. So if you go to court and the judge deems you not guilty, the prosecution can't take you back to court for that same thing two years later when they come up with some more evidence. " While double jeopardy prohibits different prosecutions for the same offense, it does not protect defendants from multiple prosecutions for multiple offenses. For example, a person acquitted of murder could be tried again on the “lesser included offense” of involuntary manslaughter. " - https://www.thoughtco.com/what-is-double-jeopardy-4164747 Also " As described by the U.S. Supreme Court in its unanimous decision concerning Ball v. United States 163 U.S. 662 (1896), one of its earliest cases dealing with double jeopardy, "the prohibition is not against being twice punished, but against being twice put in jeopardy; and the accused, whether convicted or acquitted, is equally put in jeopardy at the first trial." " -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy You're a law student you say? What year are you in? Besides all of that nonsense, I keep trying to re-frame this in a way people will understand, let's try again. The reason for the stacking limit removal wasn't because of REALISM. The reason for the stacking limit removal was for BALANCE, META-MANIPULATION, AND GAME THEORY. The idea is that by REMOVING THE LIMIT and giving cops more POWER TO IMPRISON, we will see a change in criminal behavior that fits the servers intended style.

I don't understand how the drug idea was tried and failed. You said "The market 'Idea' dies everyone time since the ideas in place are to virtually eliminate criminal violence" I don't know what that means it's not really a sentence that I can extract information out of. I think you're trying to say that it failed because the idea perpetuates the elimination of criminal violence but I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. Please expound. Also, you mention that I want to put restrictions on criminals and somehow contest that a "counterbalance" is the most important part of what I said. That's not true, I'd wager player interaction and reasons to do so is more important than "counterbalance". However, you seemed to miss some of my post. Improving the economy and the destruction of vehicles which you seem to disagree with actually help criminals TREMENDOUSLY. Why? Because they allow an avenue for harm beyond murder. A financial harm. You can destroy someone's car and blow their insurance premiums through the roof. Who'd they rather pay, the gangsters to keep them safe or the insurance company every time they respawn their car? You also missed the part about drugs giving you armor. Unless there's some other method of attaining armor for criminals that I don't know about, taking a few hits of cocaine sounds like a nice way to even the score with the cops. Finally, I implore you to introspect and examine your posts. We often discuss how we as a community want to move away from Cops vs Robbers but you seem stuck on the idea. You want balance between criminals and cops in every post, when that's not the reality. Cops are supposed to have an advantage on criminals, it's what makes playing a criminal fun. By choosing to be a criminal you forgo any "duties" or a "job" but in exchange you don't get a kevlar vest, taser, Police Cruiser and a Glock-17 with hollow-tips. Once again you think it's unbalanced but you're playing a different game than everyone else.

Yeah I agree.

Didn't you read my response to you in your own thread? This isn't the argument ANYONE here is making. We're not striving for more "RP" or reality. We're striving for balance and outcomes associated with the meta of the game. @NBDY didn't make the decision to remove the jailcap because it'd be more realistic (why do you think this?) they made the decision to remove the jailcap because it would effect the decisions of criminals in a way that would create more fun for certain people on the server and facilitate a certain style of player for criminals. They didn't make the game harder on criminals they just changed the way criminals have to play to win.

Here's what needs to happen to improve the Crime Roleplay on the server Drugs Drugs need a overhaul in how they are valued. Currently they're mostly valued as an asset to be sold to a waypoint. We don't want that. We want players to interact as much as humanly possible because that creates intense, dramatic and REAL situations. So we need to remove the Waypoints. I'll type it again REMOVE THE WAYPOINTS. No more drug drop offs for money. Make the DRUGS consumable by CHARACTERS. More importantly give them a REASON to consume the drugs. Now you have a MARKET. "Well how do we make drugs desirable? If we remove the waypoints they'll be totally useless, there's no reason to even make them then. It's already been done (to an extent) make them give armor. Now we've got a GOOD reason to buy drugs. Cocaine gives a tinsy winsy bit of armor right now, why would we risk selling that to a player when you can sell it safely to a waypoint for possibly more money? Well here's my quickly written up drug system that will blow your socks off and make you say "Damn I want some COCAINE RIGHT NOW. AND I WANT TO SELL IT TO OTHER PEOPLE" Example: Coke gives some sort of invasive visual effect but gives you 50% armor right away. The second time you use it it gives you 45% armor because you've developed a TOLERANCE to it. Thus the MORE OFTEN you take cocaine the less of a buff it gives to you. So what do you do? You try different drugs of course! Well Weed is easier to make so it's cheaper, but it still gives 15% the first time you use it, so you go smoke some weed. You develop a tolerance to that too, so you swap drugs again. What this does is infinitely increases the demand for drugs and makes every drug increase in demand based on needs. Weed is a little more legal than other drugs, it's easier to make and it has a less powerful visual effect. So that's for the lighties, people who just want a little extra protection at not a huge cost. Coke is more hardcore but you build up a tolerance way quicker, so you use it when you really have to or when you're gunna get into some shit soon to get you amped and ready. This system ALSO perpetuates my personal idea of "Value the New" Value the New is a guideline I strive for in which new players are valued by older, established players. The newer you are the more likely it is you haven't done any drugs SO they effect you better than say, Joe_Blow who's done every drug under the sun like 100 times each and now to get full armor he has to do some crazy fucked up formula consisting of 3 weeds, 4 cocaines, 9 meths and 2 LSD's to max out his armor. Joe Blow is gunna value having a soldier who can do two hits of cocaine and be ready to fight, because it costs less to get him ready to fight. So now instead of excluding newer players in the criminal world, they're welcomed and fought over like a valuable resource. This creates CONFLICT and COMPETITION. More importantly it makes NEW PLAYERS feel REALLY GOOD about playing on the SERVER. These are all very important. Ideally, more hardcore drugs would give more armor but you'd build up a tolerance faster, they'd be more illegal and finally they'd give more invasive vision impairments while under their influence. We could even put cigarettes and alcohol on this list. NOW WE'VE GOT A REASON TO SIT AROUND AND SMOKE AND TALK. While we slowly but surely build up our armor in case something crazy happens. Additionally, drug production needs to be limited in some fashion. If I understand it correctly as is, there are certain drug labs around LS that produce different drugs. What could be done is these drug labs produce different drugs each, so controlling them could become an important endeavor. This might lead to talks about who gets to produce what type of drug and perhaps combined distribution processes. Now that distribution is a factor, (getting drugs to different people) it may be important to develop contacts with "plugs" for your drugs and to secure certain locations as dealing spots for drugs. This introduces an additional layer to the drug market and makes it strictly interactive. Now that we finally have stacking prison sentences it will be important to burden other people with the distribution, making it it's own little "job". Because if your cook is the one selling drugs your production will stop once he gets arrested. Also, creation of drugs needs to cost something, someone told me it only took "time" to create drugs, it didn't cost anything. The problem with this is it can cause deflation and we'll have too many drugs, drugs should ultimately be a money sink for every consumer. So money shouldn't be CREATED by drugs it should be DESTROYED by drugs. This makes drugs more valuable as an asset and commodity and improves the economy on the server (which seems like it suffers from inflation). Weapons Weapons really need a fix. "Ordering" them from outside sources and having them dropped off is a neat idea but again the only interaction that happens is on the back end. What you need are assets that can be possessed such as (A Materials, B Materials, C Materials and D Materials) and each weapon requires different materials to craft it and it also requires a certain "level" to craft it. I know this isn't an RPG but hear me out, because the level is crucial. First let's talk about why we have different materials. Each material is like a puzzle piece, let's take an ak-47 for example. In my model it might take something like 800 A Mats, 200 B Mats and 350 C mats to make an AK-47 and you'd have to be level 3 to craft it. So you're in the Zetas and they control the A Materials Pick-Up as well as the A Materials Drop-Off. Awesome, you pick up 4 packs of A Materials (because you're level 4 and you can pick up 1 pack per level) and you drop them off now you have 400 mats, rinse and repeat and you've got your 800 A Mats. Now you wanna get your 200 B mats but the Zetas don't really run around the B mats pickup OR drop off, but it's mostly up for grabs right now, so you go to the pick up and pick up the 200 and go to the drop off and when you get to the drop off there's some Wanted members there to tax you. You either pay the tax or fight them, whatever. But now you start to see how interaction between gangs work. Maybe the Zetas have something worked out with the Wanted where they can pick up the mats. Maybe the wanted Sell access to the mats. Maybe the Wanted sell the MATS outright to anyone that wants them, but doesn't let anyone use the drop off. Whatever the case be you have to TALK to players and interact with them. Finally you get all your mats together and because you're high enough level you craft the AK-47 after spending 15k on Materials and you're ready to go out and sell it for 25k. Now earlier I said the XP was crucial, well why is it crucial besides being a system for progression? Here's the kicker, here's something that really ties all of this stuff together, it's loseable. That's right, you can LOSE XP in crafting. How do you lose it? Through death of course. Now that NLR really comes into effect. Why should it be loseable? That sounds like a lot of hard work down the drain, BECAUSE it increases the STAKES something that NEEDS to exist in Criminal RP. It makes the fact that someone killed your best weapon crafter that much worse. It makes people who put this work in AND STAY ALIVE more valuable and it makes targeted hits on certain organizations MUCH more POWERFUL. It makes things more dramatic, serious and REAL. When someone takes out one of your top crafters you suddenly can't craft AK-47's anymore until he's re-crafted all these other tiny guns and got his XP back. What do all of these suggestions have in common? They allow players to INTERACT. Some of them even FORCE players to interact. That's what we want. We want to give everyone a reason to INTERACT. Fix The Economy Seriously I feel like I'm living in fuckin Zimbabwe while playing on this server sometimes, a fishing rod costs 1700 for God's sake. What's up with the economy on the server? We need MORE money sinks, not COSTLIER ones. Why do 10 cheeseburgers cost more than some peoples vehicles? Also can we get some nicer looking jewelry that's crazy expensive? We need more shit for the extremely rich folk to spend their money on. Like a 200k diamond studded chain or a 90k bezel wrist watch. My other suggestions are to make cars not only cost more but have the cost of the car applied to insurance premiums. Like for example, let's say your premium is 150 per paycheck base, for insurance on your car. If you lose your car or it gets destroyed, the premium goes up and you pay extra in the form of a percentage of how much damage you did until it's paid off. So if you have a 20,000 car, that's cool but owning a 20,000 car is more costly than just the gas you pay for it. If you wreck or lose your car, you then accumulate 200 in debt every paycheck until the 20,000 for the car that has been automatically replaced for you is replaced. And that's another money sink. So you lose your car 3 times you're losing 600 a paycheck for the next 100 paychecks or 200 a paycheck for the next 300 paychecks (maybe give them a choice). This way we don't have gangsters driving cars over hills and flipping them, ect. Give cars "healthbars" or something so you can assess damage on them and if they're repaired by insurance you pay that percent in the cars original cost in premiums. I have a million other idea's for fixing the economy, a lot of them are harsh but increase the games fidelity over all. But the Economy HAS TO BE FIXED for people to start taking things seriously and really having a fun time. There has to be risk and reward and a ladder to climb. Right now it's just too much like a sandbox with rules that prohibit you from MASS DMing. TL;DR I've got a lot of idea's that are more easily explained over voicechat, if you want me expound on anything quicker and more accurately than typing, hit me up on discord and I'll give you the run down on how to craft a successful game like this. (I've been developing games for over 9 years but just 3 years ago began taking the craft seriously.)