Inconsistency Within The Staff Team On Reports

[XeV]

  Now I am sure a lot of people are like me and they enjoy looking at player reports and decision appeals when they just afking in game or waiting for something just cause you wanna see what is going on inside the world of ECRP and sometimes reports are just funny to watch. Now my biggest issue is seeing the Inconsistency of the staff team inside of ECRP such as seeing one person get in trouble for something (Full strike, no warning or spoken to) then another person getting reported for the same scenario just different place and the report getting denied or receiving a spoken to or warning.  It has gotten to the point inside of the player reports where you can tell how a report is gonna turn out based on the 2 staff that take the report EX: "Oh X staff member is handling your report?" "Yah you are getting a strike 100%". And 9 times out of 10 due to repeated behavior the outcome is what everyone expected. 

  Now obviously I do not know the interior workings of the staff team behind the reports and such so based on what I have seen I see it to be a open sandbox with personal decisions, and not like a guideline they have to follow to come to a conclusive outcome. I just wanna see the same behavior get treated the same way and be consistent rather then some people get in trouble for it some people do not. Like obviously every person is different and we all live in different parts of the world so someone could do something that they do in their everyday life, but to another staff member in a different part of the world could deem it as NONRP as they live a different life and see things differently. I just want the staff team to be a little more consistent in dishing out punishments so we do not have this be seen as 'Well if X staff member takes your report bro do not even bother replying as they will be giving a full strike no matter what". 

 

Obviously this can be seen by just viewing the player reports section on a day to day basis. NOT A SINGLE PERSON is at fault for the inconsistency its just different people living different lives. I did see something from Osborn on a post somewhere about maybe some changes coming to how reports and punishments are handled, so I hope in the future stuff can change.

-THIS IS NOT me just shitting on the staff team, they do great work its just inconsistency is a pet peeve of mine and frustrates me especially when I have seen my friends fall victim to these-

 

EDIT- One thing also is staff hold a great deal of weight in what they say, people take what any staff member says and use it as if it was basically set in stone. So when a staff member states something such as "You will be receiving a nonrp for not roleplaying your injuries while shot at close range with heavy weaponry (shotgun)" you set a weird thing in motion that makes people believe so if I just run around with a shotgun and get close enough and hit them once, but I die I can then report them for NONRP as they did not RP their injuries after being shot at close range with my shotgun. Now everyone who saw the staff member say this will report it and it make get accepted or not depending who takes the report, and just refund request that shotgun back.

Edited December 19, 2021 by undead_vex

[XeV]

7 minutes ago, Kieran Horn said:

Can you provide instances where this happened? I am not denying they exist but having specific instances to examine would help

 

the issue is I DO NOT want people shitting on the staff members involved in said issue, so I will not be posting examples as then people would just avoid my general topic and just trash talk said staff member ina example for other issues. Its pretty obvious if you just look at player reports and go through them that one person gets in trouble for something and gets a strike and other does the same thing but receives a warning or spoken too. Another issue is some staff members use your playtime and XP against you as instances of "It would be a warning, but you have been here long enough to know that rule and how to act". I learn new rules instances every single day by looking at reports. I am constantly learning about the rules based on different staff members that take reports.

 

[XeV]

1 minute ago, Kieran Horn said:

I am okay with playtime being a factor. Punishing a new player as harshly as a four year veteran doesn't make sense. 

 

I am also okay with people who have recieved multiple of the same issue being punished more severely on that issue. Experience should be a factor. 

 

Last night a new player attacked me, stole my bike and took my gun. I told them return everything and you will he fine, you are new I understand not knowing everything. 

Now, in regards to staff being inconsistent. I can see the issue yes. I've had staff "address" and go off word or mouth of other staff without need of proof. Sadly biases happen.

playtime and XP at its current state where the rules are constantly changing and having to be addressed for specific circumstance is a bit weird to me. Because stuff changes all the time and obviously the circumstance at which the rule was broken can play a factor too, but sometimes its just solely based on the fact that "you have been here long enough to know" and to me that is meh.

and yah of course that's why warnings are there, 1st time warning and if you do it again staff can see you have a warning for it already and you would now receive your first strike, but sometimes its just strike after strike after strike with no warning. In my opinion warnings work wonders then a full strike, My admin record is far from clean but most are warnings or spoken to, and they have completely stopped me from doing said issue again. I received a Spoken to NONRP for "Climbing on top of a vehicle and sitting on it" everyone I have spoken to says its a little weird to receive said spoken to NONRP, but it has literally stopped me from ever climbing vehicles again as I am afraid of the NONRP

And we all know Biases exist in the world and its just whatever no way around it. I just hope a guideline is somewhere in the future for the staff team to follow and make consistent so its not just different staff members giving different results thus creating this concept of "Oh X took your report GG bro your banned"

 

[Frezas]

14 hours ago, undead_vex said:

Now everyone who saw the staff member say this will report it and it make get accepted or not depending who takes the report, and just refund request that shotgun back.

True, after I got punished with another officer for shooting in the streets where we were justified to do so (not going to go into details), now I am going to report every gang or shooting activity, because what admin told us is that shooting in the streets is unrealistic, so be it any gang member shooting in the street should get NON-RP punishments as well because there would be police around. As I am a victim myself at this point of inconsistency (Not saying anything bad against admins), I have seen a lot of reports like I was involved in being denied, nevertheless my partner and I got a handful of punishments.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Frezas

[Destuin]

I mean ye there was a recent report where someone got punished for not being in a three hour timer in regards to DM rights, even though this was removed....

[jason]

I'm speaking from my own thoughts and not as a representative of the staff team.

Overall I believe that it is beneficial to look at situations on a case-by-case basis with rules that apply to general situations. We used to have blanket rulings for everything and enforce them as such which led to questionable punishments for dissimilar situations that fell under said blanket. It can lead to some inconsistencies and confusion when seen from an outside view, and myself and a few others are wanting to push for more staff transparency regarding certain topics so people aren't left in the dark. I do urge that you guys try and observe situations that fall under the same punishment but have different situational contexts to get a base idea of what I'm trying to talk about here.

As for staff speaking on situations: We are not allowed to speak on behalf of the staff team as sub-senior admins. Anyone giving you "official rulings" for staff team related things without the explicit guidance or permission from senior staff is not speaking on our behalf, hence my disclaimers in my responses to similar threads. We CANNOT provide you a straight up yes/no to most situations due to situational context being highly relevant. You may feel that you've provided all details necessary in your question/report, but we can't act without seeing it ourselves and hearing from the other side if given the opportunity. Different people involved in one situation may view it differently. Referencing what a member of support staff has told you is acceptable is almost always not going to hold up for our rulings as they're not instructed to give rulings on those. WE DO NOT PROVIDE RULINGS ON WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS A RULEBREAK OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF A RULEBREAK REPORT. If someone is doing this, I urge that you gain the opinion of more than one staff member so it can be discussed among many of us rather than just the one person. When doing rulebreaker reports, we talk between each other on what we agree is the best plan of action.

Regarding trusting staff word of mouth: in general we do not take this as proof unless it comes from higher up. In appeals, if no proof is present within logs, videos, screenshots, etc, it will often be overturned. However, just because no proof is shown to those appealing or being punished does not mean that there is no proof. For obvious reasons, we cannot disclose certain details of an investigation or how someone was caught doing X thing as it gives them tips on how to get away with it next time. Staff accountability is being brought up and it would be very helpful if you guys could gather evidence of any supposed wrongdoing and present it to those in charge. If you have an issue with a member of support staff, you can reach out to Bakmeel or MarcoD and they'll bring it up to Lewis if deemed necessary. If it's a moderator, senior moderator, or administrator, you can bring up the issue to RedHot or MrSilky and they'll bring it up among senior staff if deemed necessary. If it's a problem with senior staff, bring it up to head admins and they'll get back to you as soon as possible.

You are always more than welcomed to reach out to Kat or Aldarine to get their thoughts on a player report if you're confused about the ruling compared to a situation you find similar. If they don't find it to be an acceptable outcome or completely out of touch/inconsistent, they will bring it up to those who can help and will handle it internally. If they do find it to make sense, they could share their thoughts or explanation as to why.

Please use the proper avenues of reporting staff and you will see changes in accountability if this is found to be a problem. Making these threads while making no attempt to make a change with the tools already available to you often leads to extremely slow progress as we don't have enough documented evidence to accurately determine whether or not these claims hold weight behind them.

[Destuin]

10 minutes ago, jason said:

You are always more than welcomed to reach out to Kat or Aldarine to get their thoughts on a player report if you're confused about the ruling compared to a situation you find similar. If they don't find it to be an acceptable outcome or completely out of touch/inconsistent, they will bring it up to those who can help and will handle it internally. If they do find it to make sense, they could share their thoughts or explanation as to why.

Please use the proper avenues of reporting staff and you will see changes in accountability if this is found to be a problem. Making these threads while making no attempt to make a change with the tools already available to you often leads to extremely slow progress as we don't have enough documented evidence to accurately determine whether or not these claims hold weight behind them.

I appreciate the work you do for the community and feel you are one of the best staff members when it comes to the handling of reports and the situations involving it. Maybe this has something to do with having actively played all aspects the server has to offer so can see things in a much better perspective. In regards to reporting staff members if we have an issue with the outcome. A brief example I previously mentioned, the administrator has since changed their reasoning for finding the punishment (probably once someone informed them of the rule change), however they still managed to find the same result, this is baffling to me? Administrators seem to want to punish people as opposed to the opposite. Most reports tend to go down the avenue of why did you do this and defending yourself. Instead a better approach would be asking the reporter, why do you feel they didn't have rights here? Why did you feel they were not following fearrp rules etc. Not every report has to have a punishment.

[jason]

9 minutes ago, Destuin said:

A brief example I previously mentioned, the administrator has since changed their reasoning for finding the punishment (probably once someone informed them of the rule change), however they still managed to find the same result, this is baffling to me?

Yesterday I noticed this as well and still recommend going through the proper chain to get an idea of what's going on or to report it directly. You can also attempt to ask the staff member directly but this generally isn't encouraged as it can lead to other people harassing that staff member rather than reaching out in a civil manner like you intend to.

 

9 minutes ago, Destuin said:

\Administrators seem to want to punish people as opposed to the opposite. Most reports tend to go down the avenue of why did you do this and defending yourself. Instead a better approach would be asking the reporter, why do you feel they didn't have rights here? Why did you feel they were not following fearrp rules etc. Not every report has to have a punishment.

Our guidelines do tell us to guide rather than punish. As previously mentioned in this thread, this is of course based on playtime and prior punishments, but we still aim to educate. Pretty much just refer to my "send it up the chain" comment above this one regarding that. MrSilky is your best point of contact for people you feel are aiming for punishments rather than education.

[Frezas]

6 hours ago, Kieran Horn said:

Are you sure it wasn't, "Cops openly shooting in the streets is considered unrealistic."  

Cops wouldn't open fire in public without a care, criminals would lol

I was told that we should not go into IRL situations ''We're not going to get into the slippery slope argument of "IRL would be the same" for semantics '' and got punished with IRL assumptions... ''Realistically this street is populated, as are the buildings around it.'' So, it is kinda funny no ? 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Frezas

[XeV]

8 hours ago, jason said:

I'm speaking from my own thoughts and not as a representative of the staff team.

Overall I believe that it is beneficial to look at situations on a case-by-case basis with rules that apply to general situations. We used to have blanket rulings for everything and enforce them as such which led to questionable punishments for dissimilar situations that fell under said blanket. It can lead to some inconsistencies and confusion when seen from an outside view, and myself and a few others are wanting to push for more staff transparency regarding certain topics so people aren't left in the dark. I do urge that you guys try and observe situations that fall under the same punishment but have different situational contexts to get a base idea of what I'm trying to talk about here.

As for staff speaking on situations: We are not allowed to speak on behalf of the staff team as sub-senior admins. Anyone giving you "official rulings" for staff team related things without the explicit guidance or permission from senior staff is not speaking on our behalf, hence my disclaimers in my responses to similar threads. We CANNOT provide you a straight up yes/no to most situations due to situational context being highly relevant. You may feel that you've provided all details necessary in your question/report, but we can't act without seeing it ourselves and hearing from the other side if given the opportunity. Different people involved in one situation may view it differently. Referencing what a member of support staff has told you is acceptable is almost always not going to hold up for our rulings as they're not instructed to give rulings on those. WE DO NOT PROVIDE RULINGS ON WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS A RULEBREAK OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT OF A RULEBREAK REPORT. If someone is doing this, I urge that you gain the opinion of more than one staff member so it can be discussed among many of us rather than just the one person. When doing rulebreaker reports, we talk between each other on what we agree is the best plan of action.

Regarding trusting staff word of mouth: in general we do not take this as proof unless it comes from higher up. In appeals, if no proof is present within logs, videos, screenshots, etc, it will often be overturned. However, just because no proof is shown to those appealing or being punished does not mean that there is no proof. For obvious reasons, we cannot disclose certain details of an investigation or how someone was caught doing X thing as it gives them tips on how to get away with it next time. Staff accountability is being brought up and it would be very helpful if you guys could gather evidence of any supposed wrongdoing and present it to those in charge. If you have an issue with a member of support staff, you can reach out to Bakmeel or MarcoD and they'll bring it up to Lewis if deemed necessary. If it's a moderator, senior moderator, or administrator, you can bring up the issue to RedHot or MrSilky and they'll bring it up among senior staff if deemed necessary. If it's a problem with senior staff, bring it up to head admins and they'll get back to you as soon as possible.

You are always more than welcomed to reach out to Kat or Aldarine to get their thoughts on a player report if you're confused about the ruling compared to a situation you find similar. If they don't find it to be an acceptable outcome or completely out of touch/inconsistent, they will bring it up to those who can help and will handle it internally. If they do find it to make sense, they could share their thoughts or explanation as to why.

Please use the proper avenues of reporting staff and you will see changes in accountability if this is found to be a problem. Making these threads while making no attempt to make a change with the tools already available to you often leads to extremely slow progress as we don't have enough documented evidence to accurately determine whether or not these claims hold weight behind them.

This is perfect, I do not need to really say anything more as this post in itself answers all of my questions, and in the future I will be using the methods provided to get a better understanding as to why the outcome came to be what it is, and to also report any staff for the inconsistency that keeps showing up to hold them accountable.

[Bala]

Inconsistency is inevitable when you have server rules that border on being arbitrary at times. 
If our player base has difficulty in working out where the line is, it would make sense that our staff members would have issues with it as well. Staff Members aren't mythical creatures, they're players with an elevated level of permissions and responsibilities.

Some staff, be it support or higher, probably are better suited to helping people rather than issuing punishments. At a guess, the ideal staff member is someone who isn't swayed by public opinion, who takes their own personal opinion out of the equation and also has enough interest in both rule-making and other rulings by other administrators to be able to give a consistent decision. But then you could have a report decision perfect but it does then only take a couple of reports before you on a similar topic to go a different way and you look like you don't know what you're doing. 

It's probably a thankless task and I don't mean the lip service thanks that people give when responding to a report "thanks for taking my report.", because the report section is public, it's up for public debate every decision you make, which will inevitably lead to the weaker staff members making a decision because it's popular than it being correct. No one wants to end up on one of those dumb videos on youtube at the end of the day, just for doing their job.

If consistency is an issue, then you gotta change the report system and the rules but until then, to an extent, it's a roll of the dice.

 

 

[HarryValentino]

On 12/20/2021 at 5:44 PM, Mister Patel said:

they solved it Among themselves but the admins decided to reopen it and go ahead with it.

I have nothing against the solving admins just giving an example as asked

To build on this example provided by @Mister Patel

Contextual ECRP guidelines:

Scenario:

The report against @Fupii(Bruce Hardings) and co by Sulamen Grundy was on the basis of a NonRP house raid - the reason for the raid was disputed as being not good enough to warrant a raid. This was resolved OOCly with the reported party understanding, admitting and apologizing for their mistake, giving any IC gains back to the reporting party.

For most who engage in CrimRP, this report came as an interesting development as prior to this, seeing someone running around in a Hazmat suit was a well known and established reason to carry out a raid - the status quo. Now, upon elaboration and discussion, clearly the reason is not enough and that is understandable. The reported party learnt from the experience and will not make the same mistake again.

The reporting party then proceeded to withdraw the report, happy with the resolution. 

 

Outcome:

An intervention by an admin (@Aldarine), who was initially not involved in the report. Non-rp punishments handed out like candy on Halloween, despite this being the first comparable offence* (house raid without a good enough IC reason) for most of the people reported.

To throw around Non-RP punishments for a first time comparable/relevant offence*, where the reason for raiding was actually the status quo at the time, for a report concluded OOCly and then withdrawn, in a server who aims to, in @BallinByNature words "Consider if you could possibly teach this player or if you've tried to come to a resolution on your own. Reporting another player should be reserved for your final option" and in @jason words on this very thread "Our guidelines do tell us to guide rather than punish." is, shall we say...interesting. 

 

If I had more time, I could comb through the archive and find hundreds of reports where, once the reporting party has withdrawn the report because of OOC resolutions, the matter is closed. As it should be, according to the guidelines, anyway. 

If someone has more time, I'm sure the archive can be analysed to find comparable reports where both the context and rule break are similar enough to be compared. And I'm sure you'll find an amusing variation in the final outcomes. 

 

As @Bala pointed out, admins are only human, doing a thankless job. As humans, they are subject to bias, same as us. You comb through enough reports and you'll see this bias on full blast, start to notice certain trends in how different factions and players are punished, in how different staff members treat certain factions and players differently.

The issue here, pointed out by @undead_vex, is the inconsistency of player reports. A big step towards achieving this is making sure all staff members, no matter how senior, are treating every report with the viewpoint of education, not punishment. The aim should not be to punish, eventually ban and thus reduce the active player base, but to educate and build a more knowledgeable player base.

Another step towards improving the consistency of player reports would simply be encouraging staff to play more CrimRP. It isn't farfetched to say the majority of staff time on the server ICly is on legal characters. Being more involved in CrimRP simply allows staff a more holistic view of the entire player experience. A more holistic view is a more knowledgeable view, a more knowledgeable view leads to a higher quality and consistency of report conclusions. This isn't me saying "Come be crim for a day and you'll see how its so unfair blah blah", it's entirely possible that this more holistic view will lead to a greater number of punishments and bans. If that is so, fair enough. What this will achieve is a step towards more consistent report decisions. If that leads to a greater number of punishments, so be it - at least they will be consistent. Greater consistency in punishments = greater understanding of what is allowed and not allowed = less rule breaks = higher quality of RP. 

 

*A first time comparable/relevant offence in this case was the fact that it was their first raid coming under question. While it may not be their first NonRP, it is their first relevant NonRP and while they may be "experienced" players, you learn something new every single day, especially with how murky some rules and their interpretations can be. The inconsistency of punishments does not help this issue.

Edited December 21, 2021 by HarryValentino
Typo.

[Aldarine]

Because I was mentioned here I’m going to quickly clarify one thing… there is not a single guideline that states a staff member must lock and archive a report after two people speak. I’m unsure of where that assumption comes from but players should discuss PRIOR to the report. Also regardless of any “resolution” all players should respond to an inquiry made on a report and not just ignore it. 

In addition to this, as Head of Player Reports I review as many reports as I possibly can from start to finish with my monthly targets being 100% of reports but of course I’m only human. Aside from that, any player is free to reach out to me if they have concerns and it will be escalated/discussed as it needs to. I’m a big advocate for transparency and understanding and mean it when I say that I will take the time to discuss something together or get further opinions.

That’s all from me! Take care and happy holidays!

[HarryValentino]

18 minutes ago, Aldarine said:

Because I was mentioned here I’m going to quickly clarify one thing… there is not a single guideline that states a staff member must lock and archive a report after two people speak. I’m unsure of where that assumption comes from but players should discuss PRIOR to the report. Also regardless of any “resolution” all players should respond to an inquiry made on a report and not just ignore it. 

That’s all from me! Take care and happy holidays!

I agree! A guideline that states a staff member must lock and archive a report after two people speak would be rather silly, much like ignoring the guidelines that do state "Consider if you could possibly teach this player or if you've tried to come to a resolution on your own" would be rather silly, or going in with a biased mindset aiming to punish, not educate, going against the essence of the rules would be rather silly.

It took me a grand total of two minutes to find a recent report that has been denied, the reason given as being "The report has been withdrawn by the reporting party" after the report had been made. It's almost as if there is severe inconsistency within staff decisions, the very topic at hand I am attempting to address. 

 

 

Once again, the issue here, pointed out by @undead_vex, is the inconsistency of reports. A big step towards achieving this is making sure all staff members, no matter how senior, are treating every report with the viewpoint of education, not punishment. The aim should not be to punish, eventually ban and thus reduce the active player base, but to educate and build a more knowledgeable player base.

Perhaps it's time we put aside our individual biases. Perhaps, the best way to do this is to attempt to educate, not punish. 

Happy holidays.

Edited December 21, 2021 by HarryValentino

[Ash]

5 minutes ago, HarryValentino said:

It took me a grand total of two minutes to find a recent report that has been denied, the reason given as being "The report has been withdrawn by the reporting party" after the report had been made. It's almost as if there is severe inconsistency within staff decisions, the very topic at hand I am attempting to address. 

As mentioned previously about case-by-case basis as each report is different and context matters.

This report in particular had the reporting party attempt to reach out prior to making the report with no success due to the reported side not giving enough information about the situation via discord. Through the report, said information was made available for the reporting party to then decide to withdraw their report.
Unlike the other report mentioned, this wasn't a "we agreed someone messed up and resolved it" scenario, this was more like the reporting party deciding to withdraw the report after hearing more from the other side and retracting the accusations and even humbly apologised for the misunderstanding.

I would say they are vastly different examples.

[alexalex303]

5 minutes ago, DrPathetic said:

As mentioned previously about case-by-case basis as each report is different and context matters.

This report in particular had the reporting party attempt to reach out prior to making the report with no success due to the reported side not giving enough information about the situation via discord. Through the report, said information was made available for the reporting party to then decide to withdraw their report.
Unlike the other report mentioned, this wasn't a "we agreed someone messed up and resolved it" scenario, this was more like the reporting party deciding to withdraw the report after hearing more from the other side and retracting the accusations and even humbly apologised for the misunderstanding.

I would say they are vastly different examples.

I do not like discussing specific reports as it can give off the impression that we are discussing a staff decision, which is outside what I should be doing as a player outside of an appeal, however, in a theoretical report, if there was a rule break, and both sides acknowledged this, and wished the report closed, what is the purpose of handing down punishments?

It seems very heavy-handed and goes against what is constantly said by the staff team, that they are there to educate and not punish. If everyone involved in the roleplay agreed that a mistake happened, and they want to learn from it and grow, without any ill feelings, isn't that literally the best outcome? A staff member that was not involved jumping in and giving punishments does absolutely nothing for anyone learning or feelings.

Unless we believe that punishments are the only way to make someone understand, in which case, the staff team is there to punish.

Edited December 21, 2021 by alexalex303

[Aldarine]

This will be my last post because I’ve already mentioned that I can be reached out to separately for player report questions or concerns. I will address a few things:

1. @alexalex303 I know you mentioned “theoretical” however there has yet to be a time when an uninvolved staff member who has not been on the reviewing team of a report gave out punishments. If this is seen please feel free to send it to my private messages and I would be more than happy to look at the flow of communication.

2. The way in which players “resolve” reports is important. I won’t go into too much detail here, however, each time it is reviewed on a case by case basis because reasonings can be extremely different and quick disturbing sometimes.

3. Each report is reviewed independently from the rest and players are encouraged to appeal should they feel a report was not concluded properly and they can get a lot more explanation on rationale and another look by a senior staff member who can void, reduce or increase a punishment. If players aren’t appealing for another look then not much can be done. I can only look over so many reports in my role and keep pushing for more consistency or addressing concerns. Players have sent things my way before and they have been looked into - there’s just a process to it as has been mentioned on this thread and I hope people take advantage of this!

[HarryValentino]

41 minutes ago, DrPathetic said:

As mentioned previously about case-by-case basis as each report is different and context matters.

This report in particular had the reporting party attempt to reach out prior to making the report with no success due to the reported side not giving enough information about the situation via discord. Through the report, said information was made available for the reporting party to then decide to withdraw their report.
Unlike the other report mentioned, this wasn't a "we agreed someone messed up and resolved it" scenario, this was more like the reporting party deciding to withdraw the report after hearing more from the other side and retracting the accusations and even humbly apologised for the misunderstanding.

I would say they are vastly different examples.

That's fair enough, and with this in mind, I would agree that the two examples are not the same. You are absolutely right, context is vital. 

Whether they are "vastly different" examples, however, is a curious take, for the following reasons. It must be noted;

• In both cases, an OOC resolution was achieved by the reporting and reported parties 
• In both cases, "the reporting party decided to withdraw the report after hearing more from the other side"
• In both cases, a party humbly apologised and took necessary action to undo the IC loss. 
• The guidelines state "Consider if you could possibly teach this player or if you've tried to come to a resolution on your own". In both cases, a resolution was reached on their own after the report was made through further communication. 
• In one case, the reason given for the report being denied, ironically by yourself @DrPathetic was "The report has been withdrawn by the reporting party. We would, however, like to take the time to remind all involved that we encourage members to make and attempt to try and resolve incidents, such as this one, amongst themselves where possible" 
• In the other case, the two parties successfully resolved the incident amongst themselves, exactly as you advised. The report was then withdrawn by the reporting party. The result? 6 NonRP Punishments for a first time relevant* offence.

Please, do allow me to play the devil's advocate for a second. Let's agree with you and say the two reports are "vastly different" and there is such little similarity between the two that apparently, they can't even be compared. What remains, is that it took me 2 minutes to find a report that some people may think are comparable and worthy examples of the topic at hand; "The inconsistency within the staff team on reports". Someone spending a little more time than two minutes may even find reports that even you deem worthy of comparison.  

I don't want to get into a fruitless back and forth about whether the two reports are comparable or not. It was simply an example, that me, and I'm sure others, believe does well to represent the inconsistency within the staff team on reports. Other examples can and will be found. However, there is simply no need to find other examples to prove whether there is inconsistency within the staff team on reports - a simple community poll will answer that question for anyone who thinks there isn't inconsistency due to bias. The focus here, as always, should be on remedying the problem. I have provided two, in my humble opinion, solutions worthwhile of discussion. 

Do you care to provide any more? 

Happy holidays.

 

*A first time comparable/relevant offence in this case was the fact that it was their first raid coming under question. While it may not be their first NonRP, it is their first relevant NonRP and while they may be "experienced" players, you learn something new every single day, especially with how murky some rules and their interpretations can be. The inconsistency of punishments does not help this issue.

Edited December 21, 2021 by HarryValentino

[Ty Shipley]

You look at all points mentioned and then take a look at Mr Harry Valentino's response which summarizes it perfectly. 

Eclipse Roleplay should be preserving a player base whilst simultaneously improving the quality and integrity of its role-players. 

As already shown there are instances where reports are closed due it being solved through external platforms with both parties, in which they have learnt from their mistakes and decided to move on. Having said that, the moderators/admins cannot seem to lose the attachment and still want to implement harsh sanctions for members of the community when instead could be using that report as a learning curve, instead of a goodbye to the server. 

+1

[Ash]

31 minutes ago, HarryValentino said:

In both cases, a party humbly apologised and took necessary action to undo the IC loss. 

This is not the case if you read the report. In mine, the reporting party realised he misunderstood the situation and that he realised his accusations of a rule break were wrong. In the other report, the person being reported realised their mistake and seemingly potential rule break. 

If you don't take my conclusion half-sentence out of context you will see I also said:
...such as this one, amongst themselves where possible in a timeframe fair to the opposing side to prevent issues like this happening moving forward.
"issues like this" being: The reporting party not knowing the full scenario prior to reporting and needing to withdraw his accusations later upon realising.

They are vastly different because in one report it's someone admitting they possibly broke rules and trying to solve it, and in another it's the realisation that no rules were broken.

My main point is that these are not comparable and are in fact a good example as to why context of 2 reports that appear similar on the surface are ruled differently.
I'll be saying no more on this, I just wanted to clarify how mine is unlike the previous example given when I was quoted.

31 minutes ago, HarryValentino said:

Do you care to provide anymore? 

Back to the topic at hand, of course there's inconsistency to some degree, we're still human and make mistakes. If I ruled inconsistently to something that had previously been ruled differently in the same/similar context then I'd want to know absolutely and would likely even back an appeal against my decision if it was the case.
The remedy to these kind of issues has been stated by previous staff members commenting:
 - You can reach out to the head of player reports Aldarine if you feel a report is being handled unfairly or with bias and they can deal with it or raise it to higher staff if needed.
 - You can appeal decisions made in a report if you feel it's inconsistent with previous rulings to which a higher staff member will review and come to a decision.

Only through those above proper channels, will staff members know if they are ruling inconsistently without knowledge, or will higher staff members know if specific staff are acting with bias or unfairly.

[HarryValentino]

38 minutes ago, DrPathetic said:

My main point is that these are not comparable

Thank you for clarifying your main point. I believe I have already addressed our difference of opinion (quoted below), but I'm happy to repeat it for your perusal:

"Please, do allow me to play the devil's advocate for a second. Let's agree with you and say the two reports are "vastly different" and there is such little similarity between the two that apparently, they can't even be compared. What remains, is that it took me 2 minutes to find a report that some people may think are comparable and worthy examples of the topic at hand; "The inconsistency within the staff team on reports". Someone spending a little more time than two minutes may even find reports that even you deem worthy of comparison.  

I don't want to get into a fruitless back and forth about whether the two reports are comparable or not. It was simply an example, that me, and I'm sure others, believe does well to represent the inconsistency within the staff team on reports. Other examples can and will be found. However, there is simply no need to find other examples to prove whether there is inconsistency within the staff team on reports - a simple community poll will answer that question for anyone who thinks there isn't inconsistency due to bias."

Thus, the back-and-forth between whether this! particular report or that! particular report are comparable is irrelevant and not one I will be choosing to waste any more time discussing.  

43 minutes ago, DrPathetic said:

of course there's inconsistency to some degree, we're still human and make mistakes. If I ruled inconsistently to something that had previously been ruled differently in the same/similar context then I'd want to know absolutely and would likely even back an appeal against my decision if it was the case

I couldn't agree more! I am happy to see this kind of attitude from a staff member and do look forward to the day it is the minimum upheld standard, as opposed to a rare outlier. 

46 minutes ago, DrPathetic said:

The remedy to these kind of issues has been stated by previous staff members commenting:
 - You can reach out to the head of player reports Aldarine if you feel a report is being handled unfairly or with bias and they can deal with it or raise it to higher staff if needed.
 - You can appeal decisions made in a report if you feel it's inconsistent with previous rulings to which a higher staff member will review and come to a decision.

I have indeed seen the "remedy" to these kind of issues stated previously in the thread. To use an extreme analogy that even the most intellectually challenged among us should be able to understand;

If there is severe knife crime in your area and people keep on getting stabbed, the remedy is not to "go see a doctor and hopefully they might save you". The remedy is a fundamental change of measures to reduce knife crime in the first place. Especially if the doctor you're going to is the one that carried out the stabbing. 

To translate;

If there is severe inconsistency within the staff team on reports, and people keep on getting punished in an inconsistent manner, the remedy of "appeal your punishments and it may be seen differently the second time around" is, in my humble opinion, unlikely to be too effective. Rather, a fundamental change is needed to remedy the issue at its root cause, not once the damage has been done. An example or two of which I have provided previously which I will requote below. 

"A big step towards achieving this is making sure all staff members, no matter how senior, are treating every report with the viewpoint of education, not punishment. The aim should not be to punish, eventually ban and thus reduce the active player base, but to educate and build a more knowledgeable player base.

Another step towards improving the consistency of player reports would simply be encouraging staff to play more CrimRP. It isn't farfetched to say the majority of staff time on the server ICly is on legal characters. Being more involved in CrimRP simply allows staff a more holistic view of the entire player experience. A more holistic view is a more knowledgeable view, a more knowledgeable view leads to a higher quality and consistency of report conclusions. This isn't me saying "Come be crim for a day and you'll see how its so unfair blah blah", it's entirely possible that this more holistic view will lead to a greater number of punishments and bans. If that is so, fair enough. What this will achieve is a step towards more consistent report decisions. If that leads to a greater number of punishments, so be it - at least they will be consistent. Greater consistency in punishments = greater understanding of what is allowed and not allowed = less rule breaks = higher quality of RP. "

Perhaps even a second "body" of staff, almost akin to a jury, which sits separate from the main hierarchy of staff and reviews decisions before they are posted might be an effective solution to reducing the unfortunate bias which is otherwise unavoidable, as staff are only human after all. 

The only thing we can do, for now, is go through the stated measures which, in my humble opinion, are largely ineffective in solving the root issue. My intention for this thread was not to call out any single member of staff or staff as a whole. I have stated before and I will state it again, it is a largely thankless job the difficulty of which I can't imagine, and I would genuinely like to thank any staff member reading this with an open mind and attempting to understand that I am trying to give genuine feedback in the hope of improving the server. 

Part of me wonders whether my comments on this thread have left me caught in the web of bias, and, despite only having a single "speaking to" in my ALogs with 200k exp, being a CrimRper means I will find my way into a report sooner or later. 

On 12/19/2021 at 7:42 PM, undead_vex said:

It has gotten to the point inside of the player reports where you can tell how a report is gonna turn out based on the 2 staff that take the report EX: "Oh X staff member is handling your report?" "Yah you are getting a strike 100%

Until the root causes of inconsistency and bias are addressed, one can only hope I get lucky with who handles my reports. 

[Victor Einhart]

From what I've seen the staff team usually hands out punishments based on repeat offenses.  No two scenarios are alike, but even if you had two of exactly the same scenario, person 1 having never been punished for anything after a year of playing, and person 2 having gotten three non-rps in the same amount of time, person 2 is going to receive the harsher punishment.

Again no two scenarios are exactly alike, and no two players are exactly alike either so it makes perfect sense to me that not every punishment is exactly the alike.

[TheOwl]

On 12/21/2021 at 5:00 PM, HarryValentino said:

The remedy is a fundamental change of measures to reduce knife crime in the first place. Especially if the doctor you're going to is the one that carried out the stabbing. 

 

This is sadly extremely true. I am not pointing fingers or trying to play the blame game. But the truth of the matter is that the community has zero faith in the appeals process largely because of the quote shared above. 

I mean it's sort of absurd to argue your point to someone and have them reject it. Only to turn around shortly/immediately after and have the same discussion with the exact same person and expect the outcome to be different for some reason.

 

And yes you can appeal for a senior admin. I have one open currently since the beginning of November. I'm sure the reasons for it being archived and forgotten about are innocent enough. But things like this stack up and eventually the player base just doesn't trust it anymore.

[Jleoni]

Admin/Staff/Report handling is an incredibly difficult job to distribute and apply equally, and overall they do a pretty good job given the guidelines they are given. 
 

The issue is that the rulebook is open to interpretation and incomplete, and is not amended due to the results of reports.
I've personally been punished after returning from a hiatus for rules that were *not* in the rulebook...how can a player be expected to abide by these?

Every single new situation should be added to the rulebook (for example, IC reason for house raid followed by the ten+ examples of valid reasons, and other invalid reasons), and if the reasoning is not present then there is 0 punishment and the rulebook is amended. 

[XeV]

15 minutes ago, Kieran Horn said:

Considering a staff just marked someone for reporting other staff as "petty" I'd say yeah there are some serious inconsistencies that should be examined. 

I saw that report, but I do not believe the staff that was involved with that torture RP played any part in said torture. I saw that report as a easy deny anyways given the reporting party consented at first, but then never tried to DE consent after. I have been a royal and done torture RP before and we always asked multiple times in PMs or /b if what we are about to do is something the receiving party is ok with it and if not we will not do it. The reporting party stated "yah I'm ok with that I do not like to limit RP"  to be ok with it then when its all over be like "nah I did not like that" is really meh... If you did not wanna be tortured do not consent to the gross RP. I personally will NEVER consent to gross RP as its a weird thing for me to do in this game. I never tortured anybody, but I have been there when someone gets tortured and on multiple occasions it has been to much for me to handle so I leave. I firmly believe it was not deemed "Petty" because a staff member was involved but solely based on the fact the reporting party consented then decided nah I am reporting it.

Edited December 31, 2021 by undead_vex