Current State of Eclipse Roleplay

[tylxrrr]

34 minutes ago, Revelt said:

Once rules updated about non-offroad vehicle are not allowed to climb a mountain or do an offroad thing, i can see future. after reading it a while... "LSEMS, Mechanics and PD are exempt" , Rules should apply to every player. thats how RP server is, except the script are preventing it.

PD isn't exempt anymore. Only LSEMS and Mechanics are at the moment.

What would you suggest for LSEMS and Mechanics for off-road if an MR or a call is in the mountains? I do know that LSEMS has Kamachos, but you have to be a specific rank to use them. So, that would make the amount of medics that can respond to mountain calls a lot smaller.

How can mechanics go off-road for an MR? Let's say there is a car accident in the road and a car ends up stalled in a rocky area. 

[Bala]

It's not a "heavy roleplay" server though. Never has been. If you can do something really well, do that thing very well. Eclipse got popular and has retained it's success by doing the following;

• Offering a voice based role-play experience.
• Offering an experience of playing on a significantly populated server.
• Offering a script that is straightforward to use.
• Offering a place to RP for most levels of role-play.

Overall, this server is what I would consider to on average a medium standard of role-play. That is because while we have some fantastic role-players, we also have some quite poor ones. The majority of us are somewhere in the middle. I consider myself in the middle personally.

The differences between the standards in my book are;

• Low - Players will do whatever they want, role-playing is optional but character development is next to non-existent.
• Medium - A player's actions will be reasonably affected by role-playing, there will also be some character development but anything over the bare minimum is acceptable.
• Heavy - Role-play and character development is the driving force behind almost everything that happens. The expectation is that players always react with their character in mind.

My interpretation of the changes we've been making is that we're trying to consolidate between medium and heavy. Where players think about their character and their motives. Where role-play does drive the stories a little more and where we're not having people just doing or saying what the fuck ever they like.

It is easier to have a higher standard of role-play on a text only server because you have to think about how to word what you want to say or do. In voice, things are a lot more reactive and the temptation to respond as YOU rather than your character, because someone is using their voice to talk to you, is a lot greater.

OOC Speed Cameras, Robbery Rules, Faction Caps, Joint Frequency rules should not be needed on a role-play server but they have been implemented because players have been unable to control themselves in the past. I hope that at some point some of those restrictions can be removed, but in order for that to happen, trust has to be gained.

[Revelt]

Quote

 

PD isn't exempt anymore. Only LSEMS and Mechanics are at the moment.

What would you suggest for LSEMS and Mechanics for off-road if an MR or a call is in the mountains? I do know that LSEMS has Kamachos, but you have to be a specific rank to use them. So, that would make the amount of medics that can respond to mountain calls a lot smaller.

How can mechanics go off-road for an MR? Let's say there is a car accident in the road and a car ends up stalled in a rocky area. 

 

Well then good, like i said, Rules should apply to every player. thats how RP server is, except the script are preventing it. Mechanic script preventing it due to only able to move the car or tow it using flatbed / tow truck so, this is totally fine, for LSES. then why not let other rank use kamacho incase there are injuries people on the mountain ?

 

Quote

It's not a "heavy roleplay" server though. Never has been. If you can do something really well, do that thing very well. Eclipse got popular and has retained it's success by doing the following;

• Offering a voice based role-play experience.
• Offering an experience of playing on a significantly populated server.
• Offering a script that is straightforward to use.
• Offering a place to RP for most levels of role-play.

Overall, this server is what I would consider to on average a medium standard of role-play. That is because while we have some fantastic role-players, we also have some quite poor ones. The majority of us are somewhere in the middle. I consider myself in the middle personally.

The differences between the standards in my book are;

• Low - Players will do whatever they want, role-playing is optional but character development is next to non-existent.
• Medium - A player's actions will be reasonably affected by role-playing, there will also be some character development but anything over the bare minimum is acceptable.
• Heavy - Role-play and character development is the driving force behind almost everything that happens. The expectation is that players always react with their character in mind.

My interpretation of the changes we've been making is that we're trying to consolidate between medium and heavy. Where players think about their character and their motives. Where role-play does drive the stories a little more and where we're not having people just doing or saying what the fuck ever they like.

It is easier to have a higher standard of role-play on a text only server because you have to think about how to word what you want to say or do. In voice, things are a lot more reactive and the temptation to respond as YOU rather than your character, because someone is using their voice to talk to you, is a lot greater.

OOC Speed Cameras, Robbery Rules, Faction Caps, Joint Frequency rules should not be needed on a role-play server but they have been implemented because players have been unable to control themselves in the past. I hope that at some point some of those restrictions can be removed, but in order for that to happen, trust has to be gained.

Bala, you always answer with the right point, loves to see this words came out from your mind. i cannot disagree with this but why enforcing it only towards faction ? why not towards civilian that only grind at the pier 24/7 , or someone that always grinding 24/7 instead of roleplaying, where is the space for being civilian and start a civilian roleplay ? , where are the space to become freelance journalist, where are the space to become freelance lawyer ? why does people barely looking for photographer and let people start photographic roleplay ? where all the fun of being legal and civilian roleplay ? if you guys really trying to enforce and push a little bit heavy roleplay put more space for other player to start another "Roleplay Opportunity", you dont make money 24/7. there are a rules back at the day on sa-mp called "Money Machine" your character is not a robot. people always CK after getting bored with their character, money is not the way to start a roleplay, etc. where is it ? where is surgery roleplay havent seen it? too much pointing every roleplay scenario and events on script is not roleplay but RPG. meanwhile RP is more imaginative, RPG is more action-orientated. For instance, and RPG GTA V server will have classes and script and quests, you get the point, while RP is an open world where you can do anything, and action isn't a deciding factor. RPG is also less strict with the actual Roleplay part.

[cheatonus]

Quote

Criminals get upset, because while the odds are always naturally and correctly in the favour of law enforcement, they don't have enough of a fighting chance to make things interesting.

I am commenting on this statement alone. This is fundamentally false. There's not a large city in the world where this is true. Chicago has a 12000 officers for 2.71 million people. Los Angeles has 9000 officers for 3.7 million people. There's not a large city in the world where police have the upper hand. This is an idea people have here on ECRP and I'm not sure where this comes from, but it's factually incorrect. The only way this is ever true is in situations of military rule and even then it's not really true. By and large police departments everywhere in "western" style countries are underfunded, undermanned and barely equipped enough to handle any sort of organized resistance. Large criminal organizations are typically taken down through slow methodical investigation and working through the inside to disrupt operations not wholesale armed raids on gang run facilities.  If you want realism in police power cut the PD numbers in down by 75%, put them in cars that can barely crack 20mph over the speed limit and handle like balls. Take fully automatic weapons away from PD because at least here in the states they don't have them (but the criminals do). Make guns cheap and easy to get for criminals, because that's how it is anywhere in t he world (AK47s on wholesale yall!).  That would be far more realistic than what you have now, which is a PD that is basically 1/4 of the population of the server at any given time of day.  

I comment on this statement not because I think Bala was making an intentionally false statement, but that he honestly believes it is true, that "the odds are always naturally and correctly in the favour of law enforcement."  It just plain is not true in reality. This, however, seems to be the general philosophy behind law enforcement in the current ECRP environment for the sake of promoting some sort of realism. In reality it's not remotely realistic. The fact is PD in ECRP are overbearing on the crim RPers. They're too present, too pervasive, too hard to escape and frankly way out of balance to make it generally fun to engage in criminal RP. Ask criminal players how often they login to the game to wind up in prison within the first 10-15 minutes of logging in? How many hours a week they're spending doing prison RP instead of open world crim RP? And this isn't for a lack of crims trying to be careful, it's the PD is ever present and inescapable. This is all due to the fact that those who are in charge think this is what a real PD is like which is fundamentally incorrect.

There's nothing realistic about the way PD are operating currently. Frankly there's nothing realistic about the game in general. It's cartoonish and the map is small. Not only are you trying to push "realism" into a scenario where it doesn't really need to exist (ECRP can and does have it's own reality) the changes that you're making for the sake of "realism" aren't actually realistic. My advice, not that anyone asked, is focus on fun and character driven RP instead of trying to make everything "realistic" because ultimately this is an impossible task. If the idea is for ECRP to be a PDRP arrest simulator then you've done a damn good job achieving that. But that's not realistic. Balance and everyone who plays the game enjoying the game should be the end goal of any game developer. Realism always takes a backseat to this, even in RP. 

[alexalex303]

20 minutes ago, cheatonus said:

I am commenting on this statement alone. This is fundamentally false. There's not a large city in the world where this is true. Chicago has a 12000 officers for 2.71 million people. Los Angeles has 9000 officers for 3.7 million people. There's not a large city in the world where police have the upper hand. This is an idea people have here on ECRP and I'm not sure where this comes from, but it's factually incorrect.

The police have the upper hand in most places in the world. That's their job, to have the upper hand. It's called Law Enforcement, you need to be able to project power in order to enforce the law. Your numbers are useless because you are comparing population vs police officers. 

Real-life is not our server where 99% of people are either PD or Crim. The vast majority of people are neither.

Let's use Los Angeles, since we're roleplaying in Los Santos. LAPD has 9000 officers and 3000 civilian employees, the LASD has 9900 deputies and 8000 civilian employees + 4200 civilian volunteers. The National Guard of California employs 23000 soldiers and airmen.

Florencia 13 is a regional gang that originated in LA, the membership is estimated to be 3000+. It operates in LA.

Fresno Bulldogs is the largest gang operating in Central Cali, 5000 to 6000 members. 

38th Street Gang is one of the oldest street gangs in LA. They occupy large swats of territory, I was unable to find membership estimates, however, I do want to bring attention to law enforcement responses to them.

On August 24, 2004, a law enforcement preliminary injunction terminated the active members of the 38th Street gang, out of the streets, banning them from using firearms, alcohol, graffiti and other dangerous materials in public. More on Gang Injunctions here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_injunction

sources:

https://www.justice.gov/archive/ndic/pubs27/27612/appendb.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20060323100803/http://www.lacity.org/atty/attypress/attyattypress6922441_08252004.pdf#search="38 street gang los angeles"

The Los Angeles Police Department lost 210 officers in the line of duty, since its founding in 1869, 102 which were shot, and a good amount of the rest were traffic/aircraft accidents. In 2019 the LAPD lost two officers in the line of duty. 

sources: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/preliminary-report/tables/table-4/state-cuts/table-4-alabama-through-california.xls

https://www.odmp.org/agency/2221-los-angeles-police-department-california

https://www.lapdonline.org/year_in_review/content_basic_view/66226

Do we remember the 38th street gang from earlier? In 2011, 53 members of the organization were the subject of a grand jury indictment under the RICO statute. Over 800 law enforcement officers participated in the raids on their houses and hangout spots.

source: https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/02/los-angeles-street-gang-indicted.html

So in short, gangs of up to 5000 members barely kill any law enforcement, they're the subject to intense repercussions from law enforcement, from injunctions that prohibit them from even speaking with each other, to full blown 800 person+ raids, but somehow, they have the upper hand?

If anything, the police on the server is severely underpowered compared to real-life.

[Bala]

It does make me laugh, "PD are too invasive on criminals".
You go around in the same coloured cars, wearing the same clothing, with the same people doing the same things every day. 
You might as well hang a sign around your neck saying criminal.
It's like you are driving and you see a tree, but rather than avoid the tree, you decide to drive into it then complain your car got wrecked.

I'm sorry but the law does always win, eventually. I've said it on a thread like this before but take Pablo Escobar, arguably the world's most successful criminal, with all his influence and money was eventually caught and gunned down on a rooftop in Medellin by police. El Chapo got caught after breaking out of prison. So, if people like that can be caught, why wouldn't you?

Yes we have like 160 people, but there are only certain times in the week where our numbers go over 25-30 in-game. We have the amount of people that we have in part, because we're in demand the ENTIRE day. Same goes for SD. We have to be able to provide a response 24/7. 

Remember, we are a reactionary faction. We respond to what you do. You know why you have cops following you now? It's because of the past few months of things getting out of control and you have making your criminal activities blatantly obvious.

Shooting at law enforcement should be the very last option for criminals because of the ramifications, but alas people do it.

I see suggestions like "cops should drive shitter cars, cops should buy their guns from a gun store, cops should lose this and this when they die" but why do I never fucking see no suggestions from you guys about how criminals should act different?

I'll tell you right now the things I don't like about our justice system or police department;

• I don't like that some of our cops just blindly run into dangerous situations, trying to be the hero.
  It's not something we can always fix IC because they often get popped.
• I don't like that our penal code / jail times don't take into consideration a person's prior criminal history or the amount of time they have spent in the server. 
• I also don't like when people just join the cop factions to get inside knowledge to metagame it on their criminal characters or to fucking plagiarise it in other places.

Be honest and tell me that the way your average criminal does things on Eclipse is either realistic or "good for the role-play".

 

[cheatonus]

The issue is you don't understand WHY law enforcement doesn't get killed. It's not because they overwhelm and overpower the criminals on the whole and the criminals just capitulate. it's because they don't engage. They don't take big fights. They can't respawn and they don't want to die, they're normal people with families who do a job.  Officer smith and jones who sees a large gathering of gang members having a meeting as they patrol are far more likely to ignore it than call it in.

"You calling that one in, Bob?"

"No, Jim, I don't really want to die today do you?"

"No, Bob, best to let that one be"

They do their research and investigation and take people down one at a time or a few at a time in small raids. I'm sorry, Alex, but you're incorrect in your ideas. The reason we have civility and order in big cities is because most people are civil and orderly. Any police department in any city could easily be overrun if the citizens chose to do so. And look, you're making my point for me. ECRP is not reality. It should not be reality. Realism shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be allowing people to have their RP and enjoy themselves. Either way, I'm sorry. But the PD don't have the upper hand anywhere. If they did then there would be no criminal organizations. They would simply wipe them out, much as you've done here on ECRP. If you think these "injunctions" actually do anything you're way off base. It's just a way of PD to make it look like they're doing something about the problem to their average citizenry. 

There was a time on ECRP where PD was down really bad. We'd get robbed at Bayview by an armed gang and call it in, no one would show up for half an hour if they showed up at all. I don't think this should be the case either. However, the compensation for this reality has been WAY overblown. People want to have fun. It's a game. Games need balance, rp or not, and the balance is way the hell off. 

[cheatonus]

 

Quote

Shooting at law enforcement should be the very last option for criminals because of the ramifications, but alas people do it.

Every creative way we've tried to escape has been taken away. Vehicles nerfed. Escape paths walled off. Very few of us ever shoot first. Do you realize how long it took them to take down Escobar? The investigative effort that was used there? Do you realize that Escobar had nearly gotten the run of the whole country at one point? They only took him down when the US government got involved and poured their resources into the process. 

Bottom line is we do get caught. Repeatedly. Even when we're being careful. There's no no escaping PD. There's no escaping their gaze, or their pursuits. So many of our characters are broke because we basically grind for the next arrest. People don't get into crime to be poor, they get into it because it's easy money with high risk. You guys are so convinced you're right in what you're doing you can't see the issues. You honestly believe that two of the largest gangs in the city decided to disband over one incident? This has been coming for months. 

My point about the police being invasive is the map is small. It's difficult to move around without being seen. There's only so many places to go and ways to get to them. And here's the thing. Criminal have acted different. We've been told not to chase others in the streets. We don't. We know engaging with police is a lost cause at this point so typically we don't. Thing is no one wants to go to jail. I think that's honestly pretty realistic thought. Any criminal will do whatever they can do in their power to avoid this, that includes shooting cops. The issue is the cops don't seem to ever have any avoidance thoughts when it comes to engaging criminals. I'm sorry, but there's nothing realistic with the thought processes behind the PD. However, if the goal was to reduce the overall number of people engaging in criminal RP and have ECRP be heavily PDRP focused, that's a reality you've created with very high success. 

[Cyrus Raven]

3 minutes ago, cheatonus said:

The issue is you don't understand WHY law enforcement doesn't get killed. It's not because they overwhelm and overpower the criminals on the whole and the criminals just capitulate. it's because they don't engage. They don't take big fights. They can't respawn and they don't want to die, they're normal people with families who do a job.  Officer smith and jones who sees a large gathering of gang members having a meeting as they patrol are far more likely to ignore it than call it in.

"You calling that one in, Bob?"

"No, Jim, I don't really want to die today do you?"

"No, Bob, best to let that one be"

They do their research and investigation and take people down one at a time or a few at a time in small raids. I'm sorry, Alex, but you're incorrect in your ideas. The reason we have civility and order in big cities is because most people are civil and orderly. Any police department in any city could easily be overrun if the citizens chose to do so. And look, you're making my point for me. ECRP is not reality. It should not be reality. Realism shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be allowing people to have their RP and enjoy themselves. Either way, I'm sorry. But the PD don't have the upper hand anywhere. If they did then there would be no criminal organizations. They would simply wipe them out, much as you've done here on ECRP. If you think these "injunctions" actually do anything you're way off base. It's just a way of PD to make it look like they're doing something about the problem to their average citizenry. 

There was a time on ECRP where PD was down really bad. We'd get robbed at Bayview by an armed gang and call it in, no one would show up for half an hour if they showed up at all. I don't think this should be the case either. However, the compensation for this reality has been WAY overblown. People want to have fun. It's a game. Games need balance, rp or not, and the balance is way the hell off. 

Just want to comment on one specific point.

''They don't take big fights. They can't respawn and they don't want to die, they're normal people with families who do a job.  Officer smith and jones who sees a large gathering of gang members having a meeting as they patrol are far more likely to ignore it than call it in.''

I do somewhat agree with this. I don't like how sometimes five or six cruisers are called in for one known gang member and told to step out, etc... (which is very valid IMO), but then if these criminals decide to act on this show of force by either attacking these units or ambushing them with a goal to escape, they are likely reported for DM and such.

I agree that PD should have the upper hand in terms of response, if you mess with them in a way which opens you up to being rolled on then that is something that is on you. My issue would mainly be with what actions can be taken by criminals that would likely get them punished according to the rules.

An example would be. If a criminal member is pulled over and after the initial interaction he is told to step out of the car, he should be able to shoot at the units on scene, whether that leads to his demise or not. If he's smart and does this when there is one unit and he is confident he can flee then that would likely be a ''smart move'', if he does it when there are seven units and an XRAY then the consequences that follow from that would naturally apply, the point is that they can happen, if a player chooses so, as opposed to getting reported for DM.

 

Keep in mind I would also be the type of person to be in favour of bringing back KOS rules, add drive-by rules for Rival Gang vs Rival Gang stuff, and overall be a lot more open and relaxed with certain rules. In the same vain, this would likely only work with a group of people that are very serious about RP and wouldn't abuse this privilege, which I think the majority of people in ECRP would, turning it into a cops and robbers server, which I believe is the opposite of what ECRP management want. Having said this, take my critique with a grain of salt.

 

 

[CalvinKlein]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

The police have the upper hand in most places in the world. That's their job, to have the upper hand. It's called Law Enforcement, you need to be able to project power in order to enforce the law. Your numbers are useless because you are comparing population vs police officers. 

Real-life is not our server where 99% of people are either PD or Crim. The vast majority of people are neither.

Let's use Los Angeles, since we're roleplaying in Los Santos. LAPD has 9000 officers and 3000 civilian employees, the LASD has 9900 deputies and 8000 civilian employees + 4200 civilian volunteers. The National Guard of California employs 23000 soldiers and airmen.

Florencia 13 is a regional gang that originated in LA, the membership is estimated to be 3000+. It operates in LA.

Fresno Bulldogs is the largest gang operating in Central Cali, 5000 to 6000 members. 

38th Street Gang is one of the oldest street gangs in LA. They occupy large swats of territory, I was unable to find membership estimates, however, I do want to bring attention to law enforcement responses to them.

On August 24, 2004, a law enforcement preliminary injunction terminated the active members of the 38th Street gang, out of the streets, banning them from using firearms, alcohol, graffiti and other dangerous materials in public. More on Gang Injunctions here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_injunction

sources:

https://www.justice.gov/archive/ndic/pubs27/27612/appendb.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20060323100803/http://www.lacity.org/atty/attypress/attyattypress6922441_08252004.pdf#search="38 street gang los angeles"

The Los Angeles Police Department lost 210 officers in the line of duty, since its founding in 1869, 102 which were shot, and a good amount of the rest were traffic/aircraft accidents. In 2019 the LAPD lost two officers in the line of duty. 

sources: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/preliminary-report/tables/table-4/state-cuts/table-4-alabama-through-california.xls

https://www.odmp.org/agency/2221-los-angeles-police-department-california

https://www.lapdonline.org/year_in_review/content_basic_view/66226

Do we remember the 38th street gang from earlier? In 2011, 53 members of the organization were the subject of a grand jury indictment under the RICO statute. Over 800 law enforcement officers participated in the raids on their houses and hangout spots.

source: https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/02/los-angeles-street-gang-indicted.html

So in short, gangs of up to 5000 members barely kill any law enforcement, they're the subject to intense repercussions from law enforcement, from injunctions that prohibit them from even speaking with each other, to full blown 800 person+ raids, but somehow, they have the upper hand?

If anything, the police on the server is severely underpowered compared to real-life.

We are not RPing in LA, it was said so in 2019 but in 2020 it was stated that were not RPing in LA and los santos is it’s own city; and it’s almost a police state when LA is the exact opposite 

Edited February 17, 2021 by CalvinKlein

[Bala]

13 minutes ago, CalvinKlein said:

We are not RPing in LA, it was said so in 2019 but in 2020 it was stated that were not RPing in LA and los santos is it’s own city; and it’s almost a police state when LA is the exact opposite 

Alright and with that, I won't be contributed to this thread any longer.

[tylxrrr]

I feel like both sides of this discussion be dropping straight facts. However, I feel like there will never be any resolution to this. I think there has to be more input from civilians here. 

[cheatonus]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

 

So in short, gangs of up to 5000 members barely kill any law enforcement, they're the subject to intense repercussions from law enforcement, from injunctions that prohibit them from even speaking with each other, to full blown 800 person+ raids, but somehow, they have the upper hand?

"During the pre-dawn raids Tuesday, LAPD officers and special agents with the Drug Enforcement Administration and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives"

 

This was not just PD. Also they used 800 officers to arrest 87 people. They used the combined force of local and federal agencies to take down a targeted group of people after spending exhastive hours planning and investigating. This wasn't "Oh god they have a gun lets roll boys get the heli!!!!." The way you initiate, conduct, and your justification for raids is ridiculous. The presence of a percieved, or even a group of perceived criminals, armed or not, is not a justification for a lightening raid. It's unrealistic, it doesn't happen like that. So if you're shooting for "realism" then don't do that. 

Look, if you want to have criminals to interact with then you need to give them some power. No one is playing the game and RPing to be a broke-ass, 2 bit criminal. RPly the criminal organizations you're interacting with are the biggest and baddest in the city. Those members of those organizations are RPly fucking dangerous, ruthless, and and the baddest mofos in the city.  If we're to extrapolate out and assume this is a city of millions of people in how we RP, then those dudes are the TOP. You should treat them with fear, respect, and a great deal of distance. You're the police not the military. You want to go home to your wife and kids every night. These gangsters don't give a fuck. You're just there to take away their freedom. They've basically already given up their lives. Yet Sam Martin rolls up next to me, a leader of one of these gangs at a gas station and shouts "Dead gang!" Give me a fucking break. You have your RP backwards. 

[Cyrus Raven]

48 minutes ago, cheatonus said:

"During the pre-dawn raids Tuesday, LAPD officers and special agents with the Drug Enforcement Administration and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives"

 

This was not just PD. Also they used 800 officers to arrest 87 people. They used the combined force of local and federal agencies to take down a targeted group of people after spending exhastive hours planning and investigating. This wasn't "Oh god they have a gun lets roll boys get the heli!!!!." The way you initiate, conduct, and your justification for raids is ridiculous. The presence of a percieved, or even a group of perceived criminals, armed or not, is not a justification for a lightening raid. It's unrealistic, it doesn't happen like that. So if you're shooting for "realism" then don't do that. 

Look, if you want to have criminals to interact with then you need to give them some power. No one is playing the game and RPing to be a broke-ass, 2 bit criminal. RPly the criminal organizations you're interacting with are the biggest and baddest in the city. Those members of those organizations are RPly fucking dangerous, ruthless, and and the baddest mofos in the city.  If we're to extrapolate out and assume this is a city of millions of people in how we RP, then those dudes are the TOP. You should treat them with fear, respect, and a great deal of distance. You're the police not the military. You want to go home to your wife and kids every night. These gangsters don't give a fuck. You're just there to take away their freedom. They've basically already given up their lives. Yet Sam Martin rolls up next to me, a leader of one of these gangs at a gas station and shouts "Dead gang!" Give me a fucking break. You have your RP backwards. 

I hear what you're saying friend, but I think it's important to recognize the flip side of some of the things being said here. Surely if in Los Santos we have these very serious and dangerous criminal organizations, then an equal and likely even superior force would rise to the challenge. To be clear, when I say rise to the challenge I don't mean a police state, but small things like stacking more units on known criminals or increased suppression checks on known gang-members.

These are legitimate tactics used IC to directly counter IC actions by criminals. It's important to realize that PD/SD are a reactive force as has been pointed out and wanting groups to ''play smarter'' is, in my opinion, a valid statement when the standard operating procedure for most organizations in Eclipse is having a dress-code, color and gang-mask. (I am aware some groups have started avoiding this, to which I say GOOD!) There are so many small IC steps that criminal players can take to reduce their ''Heat'' from the Police, but they shoot themselves in the foot by repeating the same playstyle over and over.

However, I do have sympathy in some regard. For example, random searches by GFU/DB on gang-members/gang-leaders needs to stop UNLESS there is probable cause where probable cause means a belief that a crime has been or is going to be committed given certain indicators/evidence. Being a ''convicted felon'' or even a ''gang-leader'' shouldn't give Law Enforcement carte-blanche to violate people's 4th Amendment rights. 

Which brigs me to my final point, rights. I have no idea why we don't have basic rights besides the ones read to someone during an arrest, if such were present I doubt a lot of the situations that have led to this tension would have happened in the first place, but perhaps this is something that can be accomplished with the Justice Department. 

TL;DR PD/SD are reactive forces and there are a ton of steps that can be taken by criminal organizations to avoid the interactions they dislike, but this isn't done because people prefer to play Eclipse as if what they did 2 hours, 4 days or a month ago have no affect on them. On the flip side, criminal RP is very restricted with a lack of proper IC protocols to stop certain abuse from Law Enforcement and OOC restrictions that prevent people from roleplaying how they want.

 

 

[Victor Einhart]

1 hour ago, cheatonus said:

you need to give them some power

Every time criminals feel they have a sense of power, the server turns into Fallujah. Given your other comments where you say:

3 hours ago, cheatonus said:

AK47s on wholesale yall!

It appears to me looking from the outside that you want to become Al-Qaeda and do anything to anyone you want without any consequences. There are more shootings on the server than there ever were on actual battlefields in the past 20 years in the middle east. If we're still talking about realism, the police force would have been disbanded at this point and replaced by martial law to get things under control thanks to terrorist organizations attacking government forces and civilians on a daily basis.

When I come on the scene of a gun battle and I see people typing "/s lil niggas where's the national guard" and "/s what you waiting for come in and die" these people aren't roleplaying criminals trying to avoid going to jail, as you say. Those same people then get upset when they get what they're asking for.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Victor Einhart

[cheatonus]

14 minutes ago, Cyrus Raven said:

I hear what you're saying friend, but I think it's important to recognize the flip side of some of the things being said here. Surely if in Los Santos we have these very serious and dangerous criminal organizations, then an equal and likely even superior force would rise to the challenge. To be clear, when I say rise to the challenge I don't mean a police state, but small things like stacking more units on known criminals or increased suppression checks on known gang-members.

These are legitimate tactics used IC to directly counter IC actions by criminals. It's important to realize that PD/SD are a reactive force as has been pointed out and wanting groups to ''play smarter'' is, in my opinion, a valid statement when the standard operating procedure for most organizations in Eclipse is having a dress-code, color and gang-mask. (I am aware some groups have started avoiding this, to which I say GOOD!) There are so many small IC steps that criminal players can take to reduce their ''Heat'' from the Police, but they shoot themselves in the foot by repeating the same playstyle over and over.

However, I do have sympathy in some regard. For example, random searches by GFU/DB on gang-members/gang-leaders needs to stop UNLESS there is probable cause where probable cause means a belief that a crime has been or is going to be committed given certain indicators/evidence. Being a ''convicted felon'' or even a ''gang-leader'' shouldn't give Law Enforcement carte-blanche to violate people's 4th Amendment rights. 

Which brigs me to my final point, rights. I have no idea why we don't have basic rights besides the ones read to someone during an arrest, if such were present I doubt a lot of the situations that have led to this tension would have happened in the first place, but perhaps this is something that can be accomplished with the Justice Department. 

TL;DR PD/SD are reactive forces and there are a ton of steps that can be taken by criminal organizations to avoid the interactions they dislike, but this isn't done because people prefer to play Eclipse as if what they did 2 hours, 4 days or a month ago have no affect on them. On the flip side, criminal RP is very restricted with a lack of proper IC protocols to stop certain abuse from Law Enforcement and OOC restrictions that prevent people from roleplaying how they want.

 

 

Thanks for the rational reply. I guess my point is it's currently too much, too often and to harsh. 50% of crim RP shouldn't be prison RP in my opinion. Some concession has to be made on occasion to look the other way, turn a blind eye and just let us have our open world RP. Even if this means giving more PD corruption so they can help crims stay out of jail. We want to be able to go out into a remote area of the map and have a big gang meeting and flex our gear and show our strength to one another without getting merked by cops. Lately it feels like every time we step into a chopshop, every time we step into a drug lab. Anytime we  engage in any RP out in the open for more than half an hour there's a police presence. RP at gang HQs and turs should be ignored by police unless flagrantly dangerous, i.e. heavies out, shooting etc. But seeing a few gang members with pistols and masks... just ignore that shit. Let us have our RP with each other. You come across 80 gang members heavily armed having a meeting in the hills... recognize they're trying to have an RP scene and let them have it. 

I understand this is RP and on some level it's supposed to be spontaneous, but there always has to be allowances for letting people RP and complete their RP and have their fun without interference.  Crims literally can't come into PD and interrupt your things, it's against the rules. All those guns we have to grind for. All those cars we have to grind for. Those meetings we try to have take hours to organize. PD folks can literally log in go on duty earn money all day and never pay a dime for any resources they use. This is out of balance. It's not fun. It creates a lot of OOC resentment because of the inequality simply because someone chose to play a rogue over a warrior. I understand it's RP and it's not that black and white, but none of us is really here to RP a poor sod that can't get ahead. 

I'll be straight with you. I'm done with playing here. I find little joy in it. It's 15 minutes of fun followed by hours of silly one sided RP I have no interest in.  I make these posts in hope someone will at least attempt to look at it from our side. Consider fun and balance over "realism" and realize "realism" isn't necessarily fun. Try to understand the players who play the other class aren't bad people IRL and want to have fun and enjoy their RP too. Adjust the RP and rules and IC laws to allow for this. Criminals shouldn't be broke and cops shouldn't be multi-millionaires on salary alone.  Balance is key to fun in games. 

[cheatonus]

7 minutes ago, Victor Einhart said:

Every time criminals feel they have a sense of power, the server turns into Fallujah. Given your other comments where you say:

It appears to me looking from the outside that you want to become Al-Qaeda and do anything to anyone you want without any consequences. There are more shootings on the server than there ever were on actual battlefields in the past 20 years in the middle east. If we're still talking about realism, the police force would have been disbanded at this point and replaced by martial law to get things under control thanks to terrorist organizations attacking government forces and civilians on a daily basis.

When I come on the scene of a gun battle and I see people typing "/s lil niggas where's the national guard" and "/s what you waiting for come in and die" these people aren't roleplaying criminals trying to avoid going to jail, as you say. Those same people then get upset when they get what they're asking for.

My AK-47s on wholesale comment was sarcasm. I would beg to differ, the server starts to feel like Fallujah every time the crims feel like they have no power and start to get frustrated. And again, I don't know why "realism" has to be the thing instead of just reality in the context of ECRP. And why that reality can't have some sense of balance. 

[krooks365]

The explanations of LA and all that is so fundamentally misleading. I loved in LA for 25 years and I NEVER saw gangs in mass numbers with heavy weapons all wearing the same colors in the same colored cars grouping up. Even out in the boonies. 

Are the cops in the US outnumbered? Yes. Are they outpowered? No. And when gangs kill cops and the NG get involved do criminals ever win? No. They might escape down to Mexico for a bit but when criminals mess up and kill a cop they are in jail eventually. 

I really do understand the frustration with PD, I do. The prison times are too long and too many cops are happy to give you every single charge they can to make you stay there as long as possible. (Not all but there are a good few that do and they know who they are) no one wants to sit in DOC for longer than they planned on playing for that week. (Looking at you 10hr+ sentences)  and the whole "then don't do crime" just is a slap accross the face to every criminal who roleplays to help keep rp interesting from a criminal perspective. 

No one roleplays criminal because they are fundamentally bad and just wants to kill cops etc and so DOC rp 24/7. And while there definently are consequences for your actions there is a point where these sentences are too harsh and cross over into ooc punishment territory. 

However! Gangs currently be wilding. The statement "sometimes we just wanna group up 80 deep and show off our heavies" is just silly. If you are grouped up that deep your going to be hit by PD heavily if they find you and the expectation that PD /wouldn't/ is asking FAR too much. You want less PD on your shoulders then stop killing them at every 10-55, stop rolling around en masse with heavies, stop doing shootouts that LEO have to answer to and investigate multiple times a day, stop "showing off" your heavies. Find better more hidden spots to meet. Triads constantly were having our meetings found by PD so we had to find many different more hidden spots and communicate them better. Eventually we had them inside a warehouse and build the warehouse so that it was defensible. There are RP options to take advantage of. I have a character that has literally been running around with a gun for weeks on a bike and I've been pulled over multiple times and still have it - why? Because I'm not giving PD all the evidence they need to know that I am a criminal. 

A lot of these issues with new rules and such that we take issue with... Are our collective fault for them needing to be implemented. I am hopeful they can be eased in the future to allow less restriction to roleplay. But as it is it's about adjusting to what is the vision of the staff for the server. 

I really support balas idea of the head staff communicating some sort of vision to the player base. This would allow those who are interested to jump on board and push that line of RP forward and those who feel it doesn't fit their play style the warning to not invest their time. 

Do I miss Crim RP of 2018-2019? Yes I do. However it is clear that is not the vision of what they want Crim RP to be now. So either we can adjust to align with the vision or we can't. 

[cheatonus]

I think this is the fundamental issue here, though. No one on the crim side is trying to act like a "real" gang. We're ECRP gangs. It's all caricature, exaggeration and tropes. That's all it will ever be because it's GTA RP.  We're not professional actors and we're just trying to take a few moments off from our real lives to have some fun pretending to be something we're not. This idea of "Realism" is flawed and frankly who the hell wants realism? Do cops want to go in after their day and have to explain to their superiors where every bullet they shot went? Do crims want to spend life in jail because they murder someone? This is GTA RP, not second life. It should be lighthearted, character driven and fun. In it's current state it seems to me PD are the only ones having fun, and probably civ RPers and the crim RPers are simply here to give the cops something to do. 

[krooks365]

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely because you have always been fair and even minded when it comes to matters of eclipse. 

Look at Rooks, look at LNF, look at FSO (prior to having to defend themselves from a not needed conflict). I think those groups specifically the first two do a pretty good job of roleplaying in a more balanced way. And what they get is disrespect from other crims telling them that their RP is not valid "Crim RP". For example FSO had such a huge emphasis on laundering from a legal front and events - and we were constantly told by other crims that we were a joke or "legals with imports". I have constantly heard that LNF is joke from other crims because of their low numbers, low visibility, and less aggressive playstyle. It is clear that there is a huge undercurrent of current criminals that do not feel a more balanced playstyle is valid.

To be frank I think the biggest enemy to crim rp right now is the toxicity of the players within it. The fact that ooc toxicity has pervaded into high ranking members of factions and not punished, factions allowing their members to press forward with toxic behaviors without checking it has led to this toxic environment that no one wants to play in. 

Am I less than happy with some of the changes? Absolutely. But I can adjust. What truly makes me not want to play is the players referencing my OOC life, shouting at me to save pov every single interaction I have with them, and the fact that I had people get upset about a video game and dox me. Some people are simply unable to split their IC and OOC lives and its gotten toxic to a point that no one enjoys. That is truly the greatest enemy of vibrant crim rp right now to me, not PD.

 

[Commander783]

1 hour ago, krooks365 said:

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely because you have always been fair and even minded when it comes to matters of eclipse. 

Look at Rooks, look at LNF, look at FSO (prior to having to defend themselves from a not needed conflict). I think those groups specifically the first two do a pretty good job of roleplaying in a more balanced way. And what they get is disrespect from other crims telling them that their RP is not valid "Crim RP". For example FSO had such a huge emphasis on laundering from a legal front and events - and we were constantly told by other crims that we were a joke or "legals with imports". I have constantly heard that LNF is joke from other crims because of their low numbers, low visibility, and less aggressive playstyle. It is clear that there is a huge undercurrent of current criminals that do not feel a more balanced playstyle is valid.

To be frank I think the biggest enemy to crim rp right now is the toxicity of the players within it. The fact that ooc toxicity has pervaded into high ranking members of factions and not punished, factions allowing their members to press forward with toxic behaviors without checking it has led to this toxic environment that no one wants to play in. 

Am I less than happy with some of the changes? Absolutely. But I can adjust. What truly makes me not want to play is the players referencing my OOC life, shouting at me to save pov every single interaction I have with them, and the fact that I had people get upset about a video game and dox me. Some people are simply unable to split their IC and OOC lives and its gotten toxic to a point that no one enjoys. That is truly the greatest enemy of vibrant crim rp right now to me, not PD.

 

I am just a poor civilian (by now) and I agree very much over this. Criminals need guidance, a lot of guidance, which they sadly don't get typically.

I have seen plenty of IC criminals, who turned into real life criminals in a way, without realising it, being indulged into toxicity and never getting out. Or just people in general who felt for the addiction and lost themselves...

I have seen criminal roleplay done well and it felt okay. I felt little to none OOC toxicity then and that's how it should be.

[cheatonus]

15 hours ago, krooks365 said:

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely because you have always been fair and even minded when it comes to matters of eclipse. 

Look at Rooks, look at LNF, look at FSO (prior to having to defend themselves from a not needed conflict). I think those groups specifically the first two do a pretty good job of roleplaying in a more balanced way. And what they get is disrespect from other crims telling them that their RP is not valid "Crim RP". For example FSO had such a huge emphasis on laundering from a legal front and events - and we were constantly told by other crims that we were a joke or "legals with imports". I have constantly heard that LNF is joke from other crims because of their low numbers, low visibility, and less aggressive playstyle. It is clear that there is a huge undercurrent of current criminals that do not feel a more balanced playstyle is valid.

To be frank I think the biggest enemy to crim rp right now is the toxicity of the players within it. The fact that ooc toxicity has pervaded into high ranking members of factions and not punished, factions allowing their members to press forward with toxic behaviors without checking it has led to this toxic environment that no one wants to play in. 

Am I less than happy with some of the changes? Absolutely. But I can adjust. What truly makes me not want to play is the players referencing my OOC life, shouting at me to save pov every single interaction I have with them, and the fact that I had people get upset about a video game and dox me. Some people are simply unable to split their IC and OOC lives and its gotten toxic to a point that no one enjoys. That is truly the greatest enemy of vibrant crim rp right now to me, not PD.

 

All three of these organizations certainly have their own RP. That's their RP. That's their style. It's cool in it's own way but that's their RP. Other organizations have different styles. They are more open, more aggressive, and yes would expect more interactions with police. But that doesn't have to mean constant interaction with police, especially when we're in the confines of our own compound. There needs to be a wide latitude in how the RP is approached between cops and crims that allows for different stylistic choices. And to me in many ways its not the forcefulness of RP of the interactions with PD that were the issue, and not even the jail and fines, though they do suck, it is the frequency of the interactions. LFM were roleplaying a cartel. We were heavily armed, aggressive, and quick to become hostile. Irish in many ways RPs the same way. They never contacted us once prior to or after they got official status to discuss turfs, make declarations or otherwise have any relationship with us outside of fighting for territory. That's their style and it's fine. 

I'm never suggesting that the PD should be weak. Only that they should be perhaps smaller and less pervasive. Allowances should be made in the face of a heavily armed well funded PD to give crims more chances to escape in creative ways instead of less as long as those ways aren't ridiculously unrealistic (i.e. supercars up mountainsides). PD should, in the face of heavily armed, aggressive criminal organizations sometimes take a more intelligent approach that considers the value of the lives of the officers involved. This would not only create much fewer stressful and frustrating RP scenarios and allow crim orgs to develop and actually do RP internally it would help OOC relations. 

I won't address the OOC concerns and to me that's a part of it and it's ridiculous and it's not limited to any one faction. There are also huge issues when it comes to the pvp aspect of the game where hacking and other exploiting is concerned but that's a discussion for another thread. 

I'll leave you with this, this is a video of a mexican cartel flexing their power. While we understood this could never happen in ECRP this is kind of how we viewed ourselves and our RP. 

While we know having this kind of power in ECRP would be ridiculous, just a little bit of fear, trepidation and respect for who we are and our capabilities should be expected not only from PD but other groups as well. Crim RP could be improved in many ways but to expect every crim organization to operate in darkness in a shadow consortium kinda way I think is taking away RP opportunities. And PD confronting and raiding these organizations every time someone carries a pistol in an HQ I also think is bad RP and far fetched and ruins RP opportunities. Let crim orgs breath a little. Let them have areas they claim which even the highest ranking, heavily armed swat officer would be concerned to go into. There are parts of my city that the cops don't go unless there's something to clean up. I'll be done with this now, I hope that in some of my ranting people have found some constructive points. 

[Revelt]

 So who's more into Happy trigger roleplay ? , "mate drop your gun then start shooting when i got 2 hostage on gun point" i know how risk is to start a Roleplay against cops when you're a criminal or civilian, but with these behavior i don't think it will improve heavy Roleplay lol. some people did a good Roleplay with me, some just bunch of new player in Roleplay.
 

I always try to give my best of Roleplay experience for PD, again its a game, enjoy it , you dont play to win a ROLEPLAY game, there's nothing to gain on Roleplay server, you gain nothing, Roleplay is a enjoyable gamemode to let people develop their character and act as another person. not play to win gamemode.

If we're talking about PD vs CRIME

Edited February 18, 2021 by Revelt

[UrbanAwsomeman]

23 hours ago, Cyrus Raven said:

However, I do have sympathy in some regard. For example, random searches by GFU/DB on gang-members/gang-leaders needs to stop UNLESS there is probable cause where probable cause means a belief that a crime has been or is going to be committed given certain indicators/evidence. Being a ''convicted felon'' or even a ''gang-leader'' shouldn't give Law Enforcement carte-blanche to violate people's 4th Amendment rights. 

 

 

 

No one gets searched because they are a convicted felon or a gang leader. If they are being searched on that reason alone that needs to be taken to IA

[Revelt]

2 minutes ago, UrbanAwsomeman said:

No one gets searched because they are a convicted felon or a gang leader. If they are being searched on that reason alone that needs to be taken to IA

I did once, nothing happens. all evidence were valid but the person who handle IA blatantly rejected it because the person that i reported got OOC Corruptions.