Change the robbery rules back/Adjust them

[Marlon]

+1

[retronub]

+1

[Barry McKaulkner]

+1

[Benjamin Benson]

HUGE +1
 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Benjamin Benson

[EazyBrown]

+1

[Ash]

14 hours ago, Bala said:

So my suggestion is that we designate each area as either a Red, Yellow or Green zone.

This suggestion is the best in the thread in my opinion.
I really think a system like this would be a compromise between civillians who were sick of being robbed in public before this rule when shopping and refueling were unrealistically difficult,  and crims who want to rob people and have some more freedom.

Having a colour indicator on the "NCZ" area of the screen at the bottom left that would toggle between Red or Green based on location and time of day would be a simple implementation of this. It would mean care needs to be taken when being in shady areas at certain times and would free up a few more areas for crims whilst not screwing over civillians. 

I think something like that would also provide more roleplay overall and is a lot better than a complete rollback on the robbery rule from a civillian perspective and I can see how it would be a nice change for people who play crim.

[SpicyNachoDS]

+1 

[CarryOut]

11 hours ago, HighTV said:

-1 
 

With a good reason you can still rob people in public with RP like '/me discretely points his gun by hiding it under his shirt'

I don't think this rule was created to eliminate all public robbery and create a city wide NCZ. I think it was created to stop the "hands hands hands" culture from spilling into the public streets from the labs.

The server feels much more realistic when civilians can pump gas without having to have "/stoprefueling" copied and ready to paste to avoid robbery (even in the middle of the city).

I agree and disagree. When I was still a Triad, I robbed people for very good reasons in public areas and nothing has come out of it. 
On the other hand, I've also robbed people for very good IC reasoning, and got a punishment for public robbery, despite me giving all of the reasoning that led up to the robbery. Which was me taking the Triad mask he was wearing, and his gun so he wouldn't shoot me as soon as I walked away.

I do agree that the rule wasn't intended to make everything an NCZ, and it was intended to help CIV RP, which it has 100%. I also think it's made people who are obvious criminals utilize it because they know they won't get robbed in certain areas now. 

I think what Carlos means is that he wants it altered so it still protects CIVs, but it doesn't protect criminals as much. Such as reducing it to you still can't rob people at areas without a good reason, but it's easier to rob known criminals and gang members.

[Aaron Martin]

+1

I still think robbing a car at the gas station whilst they are refuelling should still be considered as poor RP because you never see anybody steal a car in the middle of someone refuelling, and it is a shitty way to lose your car for 4 hours just because you needed fuel. 

[Rekamon]

Big +1

[CalvinKlein]

The amount of encounters where people use those robbery rules for protection is increasing and something needs to Be done about 

[Paul Rovia]

+1

[Bala]

There was an issue before where it did happen way too much, I don't think that can be denied. There needed to be a change.

Is the change that happened the right one? I mean, it fixed the problem, but then it did perhaps create problems as well where people are second guessing whether they can actually rob which is no good and people do use the new rules for protection as well. For me, it should be a middle ground situation. 

You don't want people getting chain robbed, but you also don't want to wrap them in cotton wool either.
That's how you end up with snowflake players.

For me, the easiest way to do it is to use real life influences. Where would you typically get robbed in real life?

• Rough neighbourhoods.
• Remote locations like the Senora Desert.
• Areas with low police presence.
• Areas with small foot and vehicle traffic.
• The chance of getting robbed increases at night.

If players are relying on common sense when it comes to robbing than a list of "approved areas" then you'll see more roleplay and less rule-play.

Is someone lingering in Davis safe, at any point in the day? Probably not to be honest.

Is an oil driller, drilling for oil, safe? In the day, probably. Forget the people working it, it's pretty visible from the roads too.
At night though? it's a remote location and it'd be dark so maybe not so much.

A little danger is a good thing, for RP. Not just because someone IS robbing you but because you are in a situation where someone MIGHT. If you are smart and use common sense, you won't put yourself in dangerous positions, but if you are greedy or you don't think, you might and then you deserve what you get.

[DrewBanks]

You should be able to rob as long it makes sense like using scrap cars or a cheap car and not rob with expensive vehicle or bike for EX Sport cars, Super car ,Street racing bikes also plan it out not be like O I seem so and so then get on radio and call 10+ to come rob 1 to 3 guy like you cops or something just rp what criminal would do and most Likely they would change the robbing rule.

[Jleoni]

"....for good reason..."
Not ambiguous at all, and not at the mercy of the staff member who takes on the report.

 

As a civ, there is no denying previously there was a problem. I personally like Revelt's suggestion to have the rules be dependant on the day/night cycle.

[Dylan Ortiz]

On 10/30/2020 at 9:49 AM, Bala said:

This thread is about robbery rules though. Personally, I think the staff team have done what they felt they needed to, but perhaps there is another solution?

In Eve Online, they have a Security Level for certain star systems. Basically the idea is that some areas are more secure than others.
We have in our server, the NCZs but elsewhere on the map, there are certain areas that are more dangerous than others.
I feel like while there would still be some restraints on this, there is more realism to the idea.

So my suggestion is that we designate each area as either a Red, Yellow or Green zone.

• Green zones would be zones where crimes that draw attention i.e. robberies, murders etc.. would not be permitted at all.
  These would be legal job locations/dropoffs, clothing stores, legal faction places of employment, LS City/Paleto Town Gas Stations, barber shops etc..
• Yellow Zones would be zones where crimes that draw attention i.e. robberies, murders etc.. wouldn't be allowed during the daylight hours (IG 8am-8pm)
  These would be most of the areas of the map. It makes a lot of roleplay sense for crime rates to spike at night and for police departments to be more alert when it's dark.
  It's also common sense, so it would be quite easy for the less experienced players to understand. Once it starts getting dark in a yellow zone, the idea being that if you're not a criminal you'll need to take more care when being in those areas.
• Red zones would be zones where there would be no limitations on crimes that draw attention aside from the other server rules.
  These would be areas that specialise in illegality such as the gang NPCs, drug labs, chop shops etc..
  If you are in these areas, you are there for an illegal reason anyway so it make sense.

I think there has to be certain exceptions, for players that shouldn't be robbed no matter what.

• New players.
• Players doing legal jobs such as Mining, Fishing at the Pier, Oil, Money Transport etc..
• Mechanics, MD, Taxi Drivers and Weazel News - they're performing either life saving or helpful functions for everyone and not taking any sides.
• Law Enforcement - I'm not saying this because I don't want to get robbed, I never have anything useful anyway but there is not really a reward big enough to make the risk worth it.

As how would people know what's what, pretty simple. At the bottom left of the screen near the map, a small coloured dot next to the area.
If you are engaged in an RP inside a red zone or a yellow zone after dark, you can still be robbed as the situation would be a continuation.

Something like that.

I still think this is the best option by far, Yes it was a problem before, in saying that there are robberies that happen everyday IRL for little to no reason in public. IMO what @Bala suggested is a very good idea.

[Bala]

Aw thanks babe, i'll try doing a mockup map so people could see how it would work.

Edited November 14, 2020 by Bala

[Bala]

So, the rough idea would be something like this.

In-game would look a little like this, it's not massively intrusive, doesn't colour the map or anything like that.

In terms of the neighbourhoods (it's the easiest way to do it because these neighbourhoods are already programmed in.)

Paleto, Sandy, Legion Square areas would be green zones because of their closeness to police departments.
The red zones are either hard to reach areas that typically host trouble anyway OR poor income areas where RPly the crime rate would be high.

A rough guide but if they want it to be done properly, then they'd need to sign off on it.
 

[KonaKealoha]

Neither +1 or -1... Maybe it needs to be adjusted... but reverting back to the old ways is not the answer... People in this thread have said criminals have left the server because of the rule change... I can assure you that civilians have left the server prior to the rule change because who wants to be robbed every time they're not in a car or NCZ. I've dealt with the "hands hands hands" robbers and it's not even fun, it's boring RP that's just a inconvenient waste of time. That's not to say the rule fixed that kind of RP... but it also doesn't hurt to get creative... follow someone into an area you can rob them... lure them into an area you can rob them... Just get creative with it and for the love of god at least make it exciting role play for the civilians who you're robbing to, don't be boring, we're not ATMs. 

[mikebumbum]

3 hours ago, KonaKealoha said:

Neither +1 or -1... Maybe it needs to be adjusted... but reverting back to the old ways is not the answer... People in this thread have said criminals have left the server because of the rule change... I can assure you that civilians have left the server prior to the rule change because who wants to be robbed every time they're not in a car or NCZ. I've dealt with the "hands hands hands" robbers and it's not even fun, it's boring RP that's just a inconvenient waste of time. That's not to say the rule fixed that kind of RP... but it also doesn't hurt to get creative... follow someone into an area you can rob them... lure them into an area you can rob them... Just get creative with it and for the love of god at least make it exciting role play for the civilians who you're robbing to, don't be boring, we're not ATMs. 

no one wants to rob civs at least not real crims this probably is stopping us from fighting or interacting with other gang members trust me we dont wanna go for your oil or your fish 

[Bala]

I'm not sure it was so much the gangs that were doing it, it was the starter criminals, the ones that the bigger gangs robbed.
Big gang robs small gang so small gang robs civilians basically.

There is a natural order to that, but when there are very little other ways for criminals to indulge that life and make money then they are going to have to resort to robbing people.

That issue wasn't addressed and is still a problem, it was just that a rule was made that stopped a lot of the robbery so now there is less ways to make money.

[CalvinKlein]

28 minutes ago, Bala said:

I'm not sure it was so much the gangs that were doing it, it was the starter criminals, the ones that the bigger gangs robbed.
Big gang robs small gang so small gang robs civilians basically.

There is a natural order to that, but when there are very little other ways for criminals to indulge that life and make money then they are going to have to resort to robbing people.

That issue wasn't addressed and is still a problem, it was just that a rule was made that stopped a lot of the robbery so now there is less ways to make money.

the bigger issue is you could be at war with someone but its not "Official war" and they can do whatever and just go sit at parking and this rule just acts like a shield which some people abuse in scenarios where the other person would be shot on the spot, that applies to some civilians as well, getting into extremely hostile RP then sitting at pier saying "I know you cant do anything here" and it ruins RP

[alexalex303]

8 hours ago, CalvinKlein said:

the bigger issue is you could be at war with someone but its not "Official war" and they can do whatever and just go sit at parking and this rule just acts like a shield which some people abuse in scenarios where the other person would be shot on the spot, that applies to some civilians as well, getting into extremely hostile RP then sitting at pier saying "I know you cant do anything here" and it ruins RP

The thing is that what you're talking about doesn't have any good foundation RP-wise. If the person did something very hostile against you, or a close ally, you could rob him at the pier, or even possibly kill him.

The "issue" that you are talking about stems from the fact that he didn't do anything other than be in a gang, and then someone in your gang decided that his gang is bad, you had several shootouts in which both sides died, and then you want to repeat it every time you see them at parking/pier. That's just overall poor RP; and the fact that the rules prevent you from doing it is not an issue, but a great thing for the RP standard.

[cedridge]

9 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

The thing is that what you're talking about doesn't have any good foundation RP-wise. If the person did something very hostile against you, or a close ally, you could rob him at the pier, or even possibly kill him.

The "issue" that you are talking about stems from the fact that he didn't do anything other than be in a gang, and then someone in your gang decided that his gang is bad, you had several shootouts in which both sides died, and then you want to repeat it every time you see them at parking/pier. That's just overall poor RP; and the fact that the rules prevent you from doing it is not an issue, but a great thing for the RP standard.

Although it is pushing the server towards a higher RP standard, after several years of these rules not existing and ppl just robbing/shooting ppl constantly, you honestly cannot expect players to just all of a sudden stop doing what they enjoy most, and if you do think that you are just better off banning them off or handing out punishments then that is your choice, but as it can clearly be seen so many old and relatively new players either stop playing by their own choice or by being forcefully pushed out by having too many punishments.
Now having been one of the players who just shoots, I would like to RP, but sadly when thinking of ways to get some deep RP going, there just doesn't appear to be a great platform for it when that is just not what players want, it is also not as easy to access and interactive RP such as alternative RP on house raids, etc. is kind of limited by players spamming /b or the script limiting the kind of RP we can do.

All of what I said is not meant to be a dig into the hearts of staff or anything remotely close to that, it is just an honest opinion and my point of view on these rules and the overall RP standpoint of the server.

[Bala]

I think a rule lives and dies by two things. One, how straight-forward is to follow and Two, what is the reason for it being implemented in a realistic context on an RP server?

In terms of the robbery rule, it seems to cite common sense. You can't rob people in places that to do so would put you at too much risk. By extension, that seems to be where a lot of people go.

But then you only need to use public transport in some real-life cities and your phone/wallet goes missing, so then is the amount of people really that good of an indicator and if it isn't, what is?

Do you go by the amount of players at that location, players that would normally go by that location or do you perhaps go by the assumption that the area would be populated by a lot of people? 

If it's the first one, robbing a lone farmer on Paul's Farm could be rationalised.
If it's the second one, robbing someone along the boardwalk past the mask shop on Vespucci Beach could be rationalised because the concentration of players is on the pier.
If it's the third one, if you are then imagining people or things that are not actually there for the player, at what point does that become alternative RP or power-gaming?

With my suggestion in this post, I tried to use real-life situations and in-game activity as a guide of where you could rob and where it would make sense.

There are high concentrations of players using the Pier, Paleto, Sandy, LS Bank and Legion Square so robbing someone there is too high risk. In-real life, they would be relatively safe.

But you start going through Grove Street and those kinds of areas, they're sparsely used and in real life, those kinds of areas are definitely not safe. Chiliad is the same, you are in the middle of nowhere.

If you cut the ambiguity surrounding whether a robbery situation is kosher, you cut the reports.