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MrUntouchable215

15. Player Theft, Prison Breakout, and Kidnapping Discussion

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First off, I want to start off by saying, I do understand the direction in which ECRP is trying to go and I respect it. The reason I'm bringing this discussion up is because I feel like certain things aren't really adding up or making much sense when it comes down to it. I'll be posting an example soon, as to give this discussion a little more to talk about as an entirety and genuinely try to understand how the community feels about this new rule set as an entirety. 

What doesn't make sense: 

  1. Robbing someone a block away from an NCZ. I.E robbing someone down the street from bank, PD, MD, etc
  2. Robbing someone in the middle of a highway.
  3. Robbing someone in the middle of a busy street.

What does make sense?

This one in particular I won't be listing off, as I want this to be the area of discussion. Let's use this report as our example: 
(Btw, I was involved in this situation as well and although the reported parties were given warnings, I was not. I don't exactly feel comfortable with that, as I'm the one who called the shots in this situation and I feel I'm to blame for the conclusion. For this, I would like to ask @Emulsify to add a warning to my account as well, as I'm admitting to also being involved)

As much as I agree with the fact that people should not be consistently robbing people in clothing stores, as that's one of the most annoying things ever, I don't understand it from this rules point of view. in this situation, the robbers RP'd holding up the cashier and getting rid of the cameras in order to go into the situation with a monocle of realism. Does this go against the current rule? Yes, it does but my question is, why? 

I'll ask these questions before I continue on.

  • What is the point in wearing masks now?

From my understanding, the point of wearing a mask is to conceal your identity as to lesson the chance of being convicted of a crime in the short and long term. With CCTV being RPly destroyed and masks being worn, regardless of a busy street or possible witnesses, it would be tough to convict anyone as everyone's wearing the same outfit and no clear evidence was left behind.

  • What is the point of PD/SD? Do they serve a purpose anymore?

From my understanding, we're supposed to RP robbery situations as Risk/Reward and while I understand how this sounds on paper, in practice it just makes everyone oocly paranoid to do anything at all, in fear of OOC punishment from an entirely IC situation. Look at these numbers for a moment. This is important because in the report that I linked as an example, PD/SD arrived on the scene at the end and everyone still managed to get away. THIS is the IC punishment for the actions that occurred in this report and yet everyone involved got warnings attached to their accounts. At the moment, I see no purpose in having over 200 members between PD and SD if we're supposed to abide by restrictions that are placed on us through Out of Character means, that could have been dealt with icly at the time. My fear is no longer with In Character punishments involving police. My Fear now is being punished on forums because I decided to rob someone regardless of the circumstances. 

Ruleplaying

  With the implementation of this new rule set, this essentially made the entire city one huge NCZ and because of that, players are now driving around the city, knowing they cannot be touched at all. You can start robbing someone in pitch black night in the middle of an isolated area and if they just so happen to drive a few meters into public, you're fucked. This is what I mean when I say PD and SD don't serve a major purpose anymore, as players are treating the server as NCZRP rather than letting actions happen through In-Character means and I find this to be a huge step in the wrong direction. I'm aware that some situations were entirely nonRP and I feel we should try our best to prevent these interactions, but I don't think this is the fix for it, as now players are genuinely abusing this rule. I've been paying attention to forums recently and it's being flooded with these robbery reports to the point where it feels demotivating to even play. Knowing that when I log on and I possibly get into a situation of robbing someone, I might have to spend time out of my day replying to forum reports is not exactly motivating to say the least. Let's be realistic here, if we all know the city is a huge NCZ, what do you think the chances are of finding someone randomly having conversation in an isolated alleyway? Zero. Let's be honest here. As much as we want to treat this like RL, we don't exactly have real life interactions. You're not going to find some rich couple to rob in an alleyway for their jewels like Bruce Wayne's parents. At best, you're gonna find a group of people chilling with .50s on their backs.

Disclosure

Again, I'm NOT saying that I think people should be robbed in broad daylight on a consistent basis. I'm not saying nothing should be done about this. I completely agree that getting a haircut with your gun out doesn't exactly immerse you. I'm merely saying that I don't think the way this new rule is being treated is the solution to this problem. I would personally be totally okay with not being able to rob people in clothing stores, barbershops, tattoo shops, etc. But this city wide NCZ? It just feels lazy and I don't say that to be insulting, that's just how it feels. As a community, I think we should do our part finding solutions to these problems, as I agree that the amount of robberies that occurred for minor reasons were somewhat absurd, and I can admit to the fact that I've been one to partake in situations like these. Yes, the problem should be solved, but I feel that we can think of a better way and not put what feels like an NCZ blanket around LS.

 

Edited by MrUntouchable215
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+1

The precedent currently set is horrible and is being taken advantage of by hoes mad x24, /b warrior, "can I get a refund on my lost .50" type ruleplayers.

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I think a rule did need to happen, being robbed at clothing stores, and gas stations was always a bit goofy for me.  But to the extent that this server took these rules, is way to far.  Not sure who makes these rules, but are crims even being talked to, to give input on them?  Because most of the "new rules" that keep coming through, are legit stupid.  I feel like the server is trying to fully kill off crim RP and if the higher ups don't realize it, something is wrong.  

 

For example, Flint touched on ruleplaying, and he is 10000% right, this does turn the server basically into one big NCZ, where EVERY robbery is now /b you can't do this, and someone goes OOC and starts whining, saying they'll report.  I have no problem if someone robs me, but with the majority of the population on this server being children and not being able to handle losing, it's going to lead to a report.  Call that insulting or whatever you want, but it's the truth, look at the report section for evidence on that.

 

This is one reason I stopped playing crim, shit isn't fun anymore.  I barely play on the server anymore because of the poor rules being enforced and the constant /b during EVERY RP situation which is ridiculous.  Also before an admin quotes me, no I'm not going to sit and report every single person on the forums like some ruleplaying keyboard warrior, that is part of the problem and I'm not going to add onto it.  Serious rule breaks are what I only report.   

Albeit, this is a great thread Flint, I don't see it leading to anything like the other ones.  I'm sure it'll fall on deaf ears again unfortunately. 

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ill be honnest due to those recent updates i very rarely login now to the server.. its sad to see how this outcome effected the crim rp in generall and i would love to see changes hapening to the new rules implomented, further explanation on the rules should be given in how the current player base should also work with those rules without geting themselves banned.

I also understand like Vyse legend above me said.. robbing at clothing stores or gas stations really didn't make much of a sense, but making almost every area public just turns this whole rule into a snowflake land kind of thing in my opinion.  sure i do agree that the whole random robbing went too far on the server and it made alot of people stop playing in general but to stop crim rp for the majority of the server itself due to those rules isn't right either i would say.

i hope that in the near future these rules if the higher ups of the server decide to keep them.. can be changed a little bit to sort of benefit both partys of players *LEGAL* and *ILLEGAL*

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My man flint always says the right things, there needs to be a heavy change on this. At the end it's good to remember we are PLAYING a VIDEO GAME and we're here to have fun and not get each other banned.

Edited by PhenomenalX
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I agree with not being able to rob at clothing stores, etc., but with the current ruleset we have to wait for night time to even go out and do something and even at night time it is apparently not realistic, so where do we draw the line to this rule which just shits on crim RP and gets abused daily by criminals in almost every situation, since as soon as you even touch someone, you will get called out in /b and it just completely ruins the experience. Don't know about others but the server used to be way more enjoyable as there was actually something to do apart from cooking, nowadays with the changes to the drug system, public labs have been abandoned and there are very limited opportunities for criminal RP, making it almost a waste of time to play as a criminal as most of the day you will drive around looking for any possible interaction or just cook all day.

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I agree whole thing that NCZ is too big now, although this was not made in one day, it's been years and years where gangs roamed free and robbed anyone in sight and it was every gang standart and that lead to the point where you couldn't have a normal conversation with anyone that you don't know without questioning their intentions. Gangs are saying it's not fair now... But the main point that gangs ain't afraid of anyone, PD is just a tool for them to get a chase that doesn't really scare them in any way.

Look at all the topics that civs had created before, how it's unfair to rob people at depos and so on, guess what all the crims were saying? PLAY SMARTER, ROLEPLAY SMARTER, so why can't this go the same way for crims? Because it affects you now and you don't like it, I get that. 

I think civs should feel safe in the city. Criminals who goes and looks everyone on sight just to rob people are addicted to this shit, they love that adrenaline rush. This is a role play server and guess what 90% of videos that comes from crims are shootouts and that's it. Why not play cs go or some other shooter if you're not interested in RP'ing? Just cuz you know how to use /ME /DO doesn't make you a good rper.

All in all before you jump on the hate train, I agree there should be some changes to all of this, but I'm against people going and bullying civs all the time.

Edited by Gekko
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This discussion raises some really good points, having been one of the people to give initial input on the robbery rule, criminals asked that there be some leeway and that if an attempt to engage and then conceal a robbery this would be allowed, because this is genuine roleplay and the criminals clearly display their urgency in carrying out this rp.

Unfortunately the current rule is a straight removal of basically every single robbery or public criminal engagement and it needs to be changed. Criminals have been more than vocal about this since it was introduced yet nothing has happened. 

As for the risk vs reward aspects, frankly I find it perfectly reasonable for a group of 3/4 gang members to run up on an icly weaker party and take their assets, especially considering the current state of acquiring weapons & ammo. Its actually very low risk considering the group are often powerful enough to defend off anything that comes their way in retaliation to said actions. 

The current state this rule imposed on criminal rp has obliterated it, let alone criminal already being in a critical state, everyone is more scared of the ooc punishments that comes with being a criminal. To put this in comparison gov employee recently said "I've made one recording in 72 days" where as criminals have to record pretty much every interaction in fear of a forum report. 

The current ruleplaying and forum reporting has reached its peak of all times on the server, and its slowly ruining the little amount thays left criminal rp. It is absolutely beyond me that I'm witnessing criminals report other criminals over robbing each other. 

As I've said previously, there needs to be exceptions added for criminals to prevent this otherwise it will always be abused. Gang turfs and criminals who openly choose to display their relations to an illegal organisations should not be protected by this rule so long as there is realistic depth to the robberies. Along with the gang exclusions, not every area should be subject to this rule. In what world does it make sense that someone cannot carry out a street robbery on an area such as Jamestown or Grove Street. 

This rule was intended to reduce the random robbing on civilians and it achieved exactly this, the only people currently abusing this rule are unfortunately criminals.

Something needs to change. 

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+1 

The Idea behind the rule itself made sens. If it was my choice i would have chosen different words to the rules like people said it before me so the whole city doesn't feel like a Big NCZ and like Bruce said the biggest issue is criminals rule playing that rule. In my experience every time we would try to rob someone that has done something to us they would either go in /b  immediately and say we cant rob them or stall a long time and take their time to move when we would ask them to move to a secluded area.Which would only make the RP not fun and not immersive. Some of the reports that have been seen on forums these days since I check forums report daily is a lot of rule playing around that rule. Even people that are known to be in gangs and being criminal try to report other criminal on the forums which for me makes no sens. Like all the people before me said The rule itself need to be looked at and perhaps worded differently. Since i know for a fact since i read it on a report the rule was made for normal civilians that are doing their thing in the city not a rule to protect criminals to be robbed by other criminals  If i could quote an admin over this report :

 

We don't believe that this situation falls under the intentions of our new rule change. It's meant to stop random, unprovoked robberies that impede upon regular RP. In this situation, you were in an active chase with another criminal who had ill intentions, which you were aware of per your backup on scene. 

 

This is the main issue with the rule the purpose of it was to stop random unprovoked robberies but now criminals are using this rule to try to make other criminals to have punishment on them which makes the game really not fun since we all have the OOC fear behind it.

 

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+1, needs a change ASAP before crim RP dies completely, I've personally seen around 10 people who went LOA for the fact that there's nothing to do but cooking all day which is kinda boring unless you're hard grinding.

 

50 minutes ago, CallumMontie said:

It is absolutely beyond me that I'm witnessing criminals report other criminals over robbing each other. 

As I've said previously, there needs to be exceptions added for criminals to prevent this otherwise it will always be abused. Gang turfs and criminals who openly choose to display their relations to an illegal organisations should not be protected by this rule so long as there is realistic depth to the robberies. Along with the gang exclusions, not every area should be subject to this rule. In what world does it make sense that someone cannot carry out a street robbery on an area such as Jamestown or Grove Street. 

This rule was intended to reduce the random robbing on civilians and it achieved exactly this, the only people currently abusing this rule are unfortunately criminals.

Something needs to change. 

This is exactly what should happen. If a criminal is dressed up in gang colours, he should not be expecting protection everywhere. Everything used to be IC and running smooth, except for the random unprovoked robberies that can be dealt with in another way than a crim vs crim RP.

Politics was always a big part of crim RP and now with such OOC restrictions, IC politics are not needed at all as other crims know they're safe as long as they run away to a public place.

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Very interesting discussion to start off with. I've been on both sides, I've played as a regular citizen and as a full time criminal as well, all on the same character may I add. Recently I joined Aztecas, this was right after the new rules got introduced to which I cheered at at first. As a civilian I was quite relieved to know some random on a BF400 with a shitty pistol couldn't rob me of my GPS anymore.

Whenever I played as a civilian I was looking around while refueling making sure no one would roll up on me etc. Same with clothing stores, hiding in a corner with a drawn gun incase someone tried something on a friend shopping clothes. Or storing all my belongings in my car at bank and run down to the clothing store or barber with an empty inventory. From a civilian stand point I really do think a part of this rule should stay in place as to where clothing stores, gas stations, stores, furniture store, and just heavily populated areas like the pier for example should stay an unrealistic place for a robbery in broad daylight. However to add some realism I do think the rules should alter a bit during night times, perhaps make it so that like less populated areas, stores and gas stations should become a dangerous place for civilians at night where a robbery should be able to take place. As in reality I'm actually afraid to go out by myself or even with a few friends at late hours, however a way for civilians who do want to shop during the nights is perhaps going out with less valuable items on you, because again in reality you wouldn't walk with expensive jewelry or bags on you at 2am in a huge city like Los Angeles.

Now to move on, from a criminal stand point: like I mentioned earlier I joined Aztecas, this was after the new rule change. So it was the first time for me experiencing the criminal side with the new rules in place. And I don't know how I feel about it to be honest, at all times I'm now recording everything I do, everytime an opportunity arrises I'm thinking "If I do this, will I play by the rules and/or will I get in trouble for this most likely?". I catch myself ruleplaying a lot and I'm disgusted by that, I hate ruleplaying but in some way or another you are just forced to, because you're afraid to get punishments which will result in a ban eventually, which no one wants of course.

A short example from a day or two ago. A person pulls up to our gang's HQ, this person had been trash talking me personally and I believe also a few others of Aztecas. I can't recall the exact situation so I will keep it short, anyways this person should face consequences for their actions yet they are protected by OOC rules so we can't do anything to them. Literally a person could walk up to our HQ call us a retards 24/7 and we still couldn't teach them any lesson because they are standing on the pavement of a populated area. Now of course you could say move your HQ to a more secluded area, but even there people will jump to /b and say it's a broad daylight robbery because the line is just too vague. And I do agree rules should be interpreted at some point and not all black on white to avoid ruleplay but this rule needs a rework for sure.

Right now there is not a lot to do for us criminals, the only interesting things happening are around chop shops and drug labs which are almost abandoned anyways. Outside those aforementioned areas it just feels like playing in an NCZ. Whereas earlier you could hope the person being chased would run out of gas is now completely changed. As you can only sit with them and look at them refuel at some remote gas station because it's considered a public area. Eclipse is still fun to play don't get me wrong, but I would prefer to play without having to worry about possibly getting a punishment.

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Gonna use this precedent to pinpoint some issues: 

 

I really don't get what it came down to, these players that got reported have been in the city for ages, grinded their asses off to drive in those specific cars and now what they're not even allowed to rob in them because they're expensive, they deserve to drive in them whatever use for them might be, if gets lost in the process there's consequences for them. This rule consists of more IC relations than OOC relations. Quite depressed these past few days not gonna lie, this rule just needs to be adjusted that only clothing stores/fuel stations are considered highly public area. It blows my mind how criminal rp was improving from official factions and it turned upside down, cause people are worrying every step of the minute trying to not get banned.

Edited by PhenomenalX
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Do people really lack the imagination to be able to come up with some interesting rp, or are they really so boring that they have to spend all their time robbing and shooting for no reason? Also, my report highlighted how beneficial this new rule can be. This is a roleplay server, if you don't wish to roleplay then I suggest you go play GTA Online, you'll find it more enjoyable 😁

I still agree with many of the points that @MrUntouchable215 and @Mariaaaa made, the rule isn't perfect and could do with some improving, although to suggest that the inclusion of the new rule is a bad thing is a bit dumb.

Edited by FrankieP
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9 minutes ago, FrankieP said:

Do people really lack the imagination to be able to come up with some interesting rp, or are they really so boring that they have to spend all their time robbing and shooting for no reason? Also, my report highlighted how beneficial this new rule can be. This is a roleplay server, if you don't wish to roleplay then I suggest you go play GTA Online, you'll find it more enjoyable 😁

I still agree with many of the points that @MrUntouchable215 and @Mariaaaa made, the rule isn't perfect and could do with some improving, although to suggest that the inclusion of the new rule is a bad thing is a bit dumb.

My point wasn't the roleplay reason, but take for an instance another robbery takes place cannot they use their vehicles that they worked for?

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Just now, PhenomenalX said:

My point wasn't the roleplay reason, but take for an instance another robbery takes place cannot they use their vehicles that they worked for?

I think the point of the rule is ask why would someone with a multi-million dollar car waste their time robbing a random in a 50-100k  car, who may not even be carrying anything of value.

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I think its just because people who have millions in assets go for really low reward robberies, at least based on that report.

On the topic itself, i like the rule. Dont have to have my gun out all the time, can actually have a conversation at a gas station without either one of us thinking "will he rob me" and overall, just makes it more enjoyable to do stuff outside of money grinding. So from a civilian standpoint, the rule is really good.

From a PD side, a lot less robbery calls and overall, a lot less action.

I dont play criminal, but from all the reports ive seen, it feels like its getting abused by people. Sure, if you are about to get robbed, makes sense to run to a safe area, but taunting someone there? Thats just blatant disregard for your own safety.

I think there needs to be more leniency for gang on gang relations as there is always a lot more backstory to what is happening, than when it comes to robbing civilians. Additionally, i think using night time to indicate when it is a lot safer to rob people would also be a good addition. People get robbed at nights a lot more than they do during the day, so why not allow it based on the rule.

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2 hours ago, FrankieP said:

I think the point of the rule is ask why would someone with a multi-million dollar car waste their time robbing a random in a 50-100k  car, who may not even be carrying anything of value.

Because this is a game and is a point u seem to have missed, there’s a lot of shit in this server that isn’t realistic and i think i speak for most of the server population when i say that we didnt come to play a life simulator. So since u suggested gta online for us, i’ll suggest something for you, if you want realism, go outside.

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Just now, cedridge said:

Because this is a game and is a point u seem to have missed, there’s a lot of shit in this server that isn’t realistic and i think i speak for most of the server population when i say that we didnt come to play a life simulator. So since u suggested gta online for us, i’ll suggest something for you, if you want realism, go outside.

edit: still cannae believe you said than LMAO

Bruh. The whole point of gta roleplay is for it to have a strong element of realism. it literally IS suppsoed so be a life simulator to some degree. You want me to head outside and start setting up drug labs, importing weapons and getting into shootouts? aight but you're paying my bail. Besides, you heard of Corona? Yeah, that do be kinda keeping us all inside doe.

Edit: still cannae believe you said that LMAO

Edited by FrankieP
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+1 

This rule was put in place for very good reasons, the aim is to decrease the amount of people going around robbing people. In essence, get rid of the cop vs robber mentality and encourage people to RP other things besides just being a criminal drone going from shop to shop robbing people 24/7. This is something I think should NOT exist and if it does, then it should be based on very good RP. 

The rule should have exceptions for day/night and even for some established gangs given their capacity and effectiveness. However, the real change that needs to be done is with regards to facilitating RP. I think it is unreasonable to except people to have good in-depth role-play scenarios when the server actively goes against this.

- New Players: New-players should be vetted a lot better than they are right now, as PD I find myself in situation with new players very often (probably 4-5 times per day). I have nothing against new-players, but it happens to be that most new-players often combat log, break basic rules, have no concept of what /me and /do is and how to differentiate it, etc... This is supposed to be a ''Hardcore RP'' server, yet even with a quiz new-players who aren't even fit for light-RP are still getting in. This should be improved massively, have them conduct an interview with support staff on discord to verify they know, make sure you rotate quiz questions very often (this might be done already, not sure) or simply put, hand out a lot harsher bans for critical mistakes like now being able to do /me and /do. Sending them back to quiz is not good, they've already passed it once while demonstrating a clear lack of knowledge which likely means they've had someone else take it or cheated. Before anyone gets any ideas, this is NOT a criticism about new-players who might have slight difficulties in figuring out server commands or who might take a bit of time to respond because certain situations are hectic and they aren't used to it. This is strictly a suggestion aimed at new-players who have very little to no experience in role-play to the point where it is counter-productive , we are are NOT a light-roleplay server and anyone coming into the server should already have had some experience on others servers or the very least show they are able to understand basic RP functions like /me and /do.

- We need a lot more script incentives for role-play. This means allowing people to create business accounts at the bank and manage their groups and organisations in a similar way the F4 menu allows factions and gangs to manage their stuff. This is not about the lack of ability to roleplay without script, rather it is an INCENTIVE for long-term roleplay instead of short-term roleplay. 

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Just now, Kyle White Raven said:

+1 

This rule was put in place for very good reasons, the aim is to decrease the amount of people going around robbing people. In essence, get rid of the cop vs robber mentality and encourage people to RP other things besides just being a criminal drone going from shop to shop robbing people 24/7. This is something I think should NOT exist and if it does, then it should be based on very good RP. 

The rule should have exceptions for day/night and even for some established gangs given their capacity and effectiveness. However, the real change that needs to be done is with regards to facilitating RP. I think it is unreasonable to except people to have good in-depth role-play scenarios when the server actively goes against this.

- New Players: New-players should be vetted a lot better than they are right now, as PD I find myself in situation with new players very often (probably 4-5 times per day). I have nothing against new-players, but it happens to be that most new-players often combat log, break basic rules, have no concept of what /me and /do is and how to differentiate it, etc... This is supposed to be a ''Hardcore RP'' server, yet even with a quiz new-players who aren't even fit for light-RP are still getting in. This should be improved massively, have them conduct an interview with support staff on discord to verify they know, make sure you rotate quiz questions very often (this might be done already, not sure) or simply put, hand out a lot harsher bans for critical mistakes like now being able to do /me and /do. Sending them back to quiz is not good, they've already passed it once while demonstrating a clear lack of knowledge which likely means they've had someone else take it or cheated. Before anyone gets any ideas, this is NOT a criticism about new-players who might have slight difficulties in figuring out server commands or who might take a bit of time to respond because certain situations are hectic and they aren't used to it. This is strictly a suggestion aimed at new-players who have very little to no experience in role-play to the point where it is counter-productive , we are are NOT a light-roleplay server and anyone coming into the server should already have had some experience on others servers or the very least show they are able to understand basic RP functions like /me and /do.

- We need a lot more script incentives for role-play. This means allowing people to create business accounts at the bank and manage their groups and organisations in a similar way the F4 menu allows factions and gangs to manage their stuff. This is not about the lack of ability to roleplay without script, rather it is an INCENTIVE for long-term roleplay instead of short-term roleplay. 

I agree that the quiz should be tougher. There's too many newer players, sometimes even without the ((new player)) tag, that clearly do not know the basic rules, despite having passed the quiz.

I disagree with the point you made "I think it is unreasonable to except people to have good in-depth role-play scenarios when the server actively goes against this". I think everyone should be expected to display somewhat interesting and well thought out rp, after all it is a roleplay server.

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45 minutes ago, cedridge said:

Because this is a game and is a point u seem to have missed, there’s a lot of shit in this server that isn’t realistic and i think i speak for most of the server population when i say that we didnt come to play a life simulator. So since u suggested gta online for us, i’ll suggest something for you, if you want realism, go outside.

This is what some people in the community need to understand.

Edited by PhenomenalX
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