15. Player Theft, Prison Breakout, and Kidnapping Discussion

[FrankieP]

Just now, Kyle White Raven said:

Let me illustrate my point using a hypothetical example.

If you have Server A with 300 players with little moderation and no in-depth restrictions on DM and KOS, then it is unreasonable to expect people not to KOS and DM eachother since the server doesn't actively work towards preventing this.

The same, I would argue, applies here. Players can not be expected to have hardcore RP scenarios (most RP is basic at most although I'm sure there is in-depth RP by some) when the server allows new-players and other subpar players to remain on the server with modest consequences and doesn't give people access to script features that would enhance their roleplay. This doesn't mean people shouldn't RP, it just means that the expectation for a higher level of RP will probably not develop throughout the broader player base, this is evidenced by the current state of the server.

So would you agree that if the entry quiz was tougher, and the punishments harsher, you would agree and expect higher levels of rp from the people that remain?

[Cyrus Raven]

38 minutes ago, FrankieP said:

So would you agree that if the entry quiz was tougher, and the punishments harsher, you would agree and expect higher levels of rp from the people that remain?

Yes, I think that the level of RP across the board would rise since we would hopefully see less people who don't know anything about RP, but I still think significant development in terms of scripts should be done to get to the level RP that I used to experience in old SAMP servers. 

While I'm at it I'll also add that some sort of ''market research'' should be done, I'm talking about literally going into other popular RP servers, seeing what they do well and then taking that building on it and improving it for our use. There has been some many cool features and rules, etc... that I've seen on other rage servers and in general in past RP games that could work really well on Eclipse, I'm just not quite sure why this isn't being done.

[Skumm]

I agree with Flint wholeheartedly here. 

Firstly the fact that there are criminals and gang members attempting to use this as protection is pathetic. All of us who chose to live a criminal life should expect and be prepared for the danger associated with this. You live by the sword you die by the sword right?

I can somewhat agree or live with not being able to rob people in clothing stores/barbers/tattoo shops as players are vulnerable while in the menus here and with only one way in or out are at a very disadvantageous position and there would be CCTV present, but at the same time isn't this why criminal wear masks to conceal their identity? Yes you can argue that there would be a shopkeeper etc there in real life but at the same time how would this really affect the outcome? is a shopkeeper really going to risk their life for a stranger IRL? Obviously not.

The state we IC'ly live in has a huge proportion of criminals compared to your average real life city, thus you would expect a higher level of lawlessness and crime. In my real life my grandmother ran a post office from her house, it was situated on a very busy main road, that post office was robbed over 30-40 times at gunpoint/melee weapons etc, the fact that it was on a busy road had no implications nor did it act as a deterrent for this. Now in my adulthood I live in the city center of a capital city in europe, crime happens on the daily and in broad daylight. Not 200 meters from the country's busiest tourist attraction a group of tourists were robbed for there phones at gunpoint, middle of the day. I have watched as 20+ teenagers have run into a shop grab €400+ worth of food and sweets and run away on foot just for a laugh. People have money snatched from their hands when making withdrawals from an ATM. Crime happens everywhere and when you have such a high proportion of the populace who are criminal as we do in our RP city realistically you would expect more crimes and more blatant attempts to commit them. The argument about high risk low reward is bullshit imo, if someone feels that they risk involved in robbing someone for a .50 is worth it and they get away with it clearly the risk wasn't that high to begin with and there are IC solutions for these issues such as having police on regular patrols instead of having almost the whole force involved in every chase. In game you can rob a store on a busy road, make 13k between two people and it will take 18 mins and this is acceptable in terms of risk versus reward but robbing someone for a .50 with a street value of 10k in less than 2 mins and this is deemed to be too high risk for too little reward, it doesn't make sense.

We are supposed to imagine that the high way is busy when it is not right? but why does this only apply to criminals, SWAT and PD/SD regularly open fire with automatic weapons during chases on these supposedly busy highways putting the lives of these imaginary witnesses in danger, why are they not being held to the same standards are us crims? Recently a report was accepted and a punishment issued because a guy was robbed in the forest between the lumber mill and west highway at 2am. I am astounded by this to be honest, how can it be non-rp for someone to attempt to rob someone in the dead of night in a forest but its completely acceptable for a lumberjack to be working alone at 2am? Because we understand that at the end of the day its a game we are playing and the lumberjack was trying to make some money yet the the criminal is not given the same opportunity to make money in his profession. If its realism we strive for the lumberjack shouldn't have been working in the dead of night like that, would that be considered high risk low reward due to the inherent dangers of working that kind of job in real life? Isn't it non-rp for legal civilians, mechanics, medics etc to always carry .50s with them, especially on duty as this would never happen in real life! It feels like the the non-rp rules are being used as a bat to beat the crims of the server with and are not being fairly applied to all members of the community.

Its sad to see so many of my criminal friends (and enemies) feel so demotivated to play recently and I can honestly say I have felt the same. With the city wide NCZ i feel we are also taking the element of danger away from the civilians of the server. When i first joined the city there was a constant sense of danger when when refueling or going into certain stores, getting robbed for my legal weapon or vehicle thought me to play smarter, it also thought me how to properly use my /me's and /do's and it made sense, there was a natural ecology civilians are afraid of getting robbed by criminals, criminals are afraid to get caught by police and get stuck in jail of hours at a time and get hammered by fines. The jail time alone is enough of an OOC punishment as it could potentially take away your full day of playing. This all made sense from both a game design and a realism/RP standpoint, now not so much.

[Korab_Bagadovic]

+1

[Pvle]

+1

[Trenix]

I may be new to this server, but I'm not new to RPing, used to go way back to SA:MP, before MTA existed. Roleplaying there was really strict and getting into a server was difficult, filling out forms and whatnot and waiting to be whitelisted. Those high standards however were worthwhile, because you'd think twice about your actions. In this server, it's like I'm in a DM. It doesn't even seem like admins have the tools in place to figure out who did what or watch the reported players screen temporarily to catch them in the act, making punishments only be possible with valid recordings. That was unheard of in the past, all we did was screenshots if anything. The quizzes are also weak and can easily be bypassed, especially problematic when a group of players just feed each other the answers to get on. It's far different than if someone had to write paragraphs to try and earn their way into the server. This isn't mob rule.

Anyway, it's wrong that I have to now distance myself from players because I'm afraid people are going to rob me or steal my crap. Majority of my interactions were not friendly, they were mostly rule breakers and robbers. Is that what you guys want? Players being afraid to RP with one another and create a community because your only form of roleplay is to rob people? Personally I find that pathetic and you're far from actual Rpers. Back in the SA;MP days gangs would sell drugs, guns, and fight with one another. Gangs would rather recruit than rob people, the more, the better. They also needed people to sell illegal items to. They wouldn't bother another player unless they were provoked. What doesn't make sense is that you come to an RP server to rob and kill people instead of playing GTA Online. Seems like you intentionally came to take advantage of a more vulnerable community.

I'm surprised anyone is agreeing with you. In real life, no one would rob someone in the middle of a busy street, highway, near a bank or any other government building unless you're asking to be caught. Just because AI doesn't exist, doesn't mean these areas are not in the public where there would be cameras or pedestrians. A person who knows how to RP would find ways to rob a player by luring them to a secluded area. Hell, some players would be fine losing cash from a robbery, as long as it is RPed correctly. The RP situation is worth paying for. Yet if you're just being a griefer, then don't be surprised when you get so much resistance and have stricter rules against your playstyle that both parties don't equally enjoy. You're roleplaying in a video game, sometimes people seem to forget that we're all here to have fun, not just you.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Trenix

[Trenix]

7 hours ago, cedridge said:

Because this is a game and is a point u seem to have missed, there’s a lot of shit in this server that isn’t realistic and i think i speak for most of the server population when i say that we didnt come to play a life simulator. So since u suggested gta online for us, i’ll suggest something for you, if you want realism, go outside.

I bet 90% of the server right now, especially with the influx of new players, would want this to be another GTA Online with new features. That doesn't mean we should just resort to mob rule. Imagine if we based the report system on mob rule, wonder how that'll play out. You literally did sign up to play a life simulator. You're literally playing a game where you're required to roleplay or you will be punished for failing to do so. You need to literally act like the character you want to be and must react in a realistic way. Even performing poor roleplay is considered non-roleplay and therefore is a breach in rules.

You've been a member since 2019 in December, how did manage to get through the vetting process somehow remain in the server while being completely oblivious of the rules? No let me backtrack, you do not only fail to comprehend the rules, but you don't even know what kind of server you're playing on to begin with. That's the real problem.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Trenix

[Skumm]

2 hours ago, Trenix said:

I'm surprised anyone is agreeing with you. In real life, no one would rob someone in the middle of a busy street, highway, near a bank or any other government building unless you're asking to be caught. 

That is categorically not true. I don't know where you live or what experiences you have had in the real world but I can assure you from my experience of the real world that is factually incorrect

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Skumm

[Trenix]

1 hour ago, Skumm said:

That is categorically not true. I don't know where you live or what experiences you have had in the real world but I can assure you from my experience of the real world that is factually incorrect

And you've successfully proven my point. These people were all caught on camera, hence you have a video of it. Notice, we'd limited by the game and that's why most crime goes unsolved. In reality, not so much. Sure you can always do stuff out in the open, but expect to be caught like everyone you just showed me. Thank you for that.

[Skumm]

3 minutes ago, Trenix said:

And you've successfully proven my point. These people were all caught on camera, hence you have a video of it. Notice, we'd limited by the game and that's why most crime goes unsolved. In reality, not so much. Sure you can always do stuff out in the open, but expect to be caught like everyone you just showed me. Thank you for that.

Yes they were caught on camera, that does not mean they were caught and that is two examples that were caught on camera, how many instances of this were not!?

Edited May 21, 2020 by Skumm

[Trenix]

8 minutes ago, Skumm said:

Yes they were caught on camera, that does not mean they were caught and that is two examples that were caught on camera, how many instances of this were not!?

What a straw man argument, it was nothing that we're talking about. Again, let me get my point across. In the real world, if you do something in broad daylight within the public, you will most likely get caught. In GTA, in a public place, you will most likely never get caught. Why? Because we're limited. We don't have functional cameras on buildings, pedestrians, or streets full of cars. Does that mean a crime will not happen around those things? Well obviously it will, but it's not only less likely, it's stupid because they will get caught almost always. We're to act as if we're the character among in a living breathing society. Welcome to the world of roleplay.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Trenix

[Skumm]

You are the one implying that if they are caught on camera they would be arrested for the crime, therefore it's you who is using the straw man here, I simply pointed out that these things happen on the real world, you are saying I'm wrong based on your infactual assumption that the perpetrators were caught with no evidence to back up your claim other than your opinion and using it to try and dismiss the fact that these things do happen in the real world. 

[Trenix]

1 minute ago, Skumm said:

You are the one implying that if they are caught on camera they would be arrested for the crime, therefore it's you who is using the straw man here, I simply pointed out that these things happen on the real world, you are saying I'm wrong based on your infactual assumption that the perpetrators were caught with no evidence to back up your claim other than your opinion and using it to try and dismiss the fact that these things do happen in the real world. 

Yeah you've just ignored everything I said, so have a nice day. I at least tried.

[Skumm]

2 minutes ago, Trenix said:

Yeah you've just ignored everything I said, so have a nice day. I at least tried.

I did, i said its your assumption that is solely based on your opinion and not fact. If cameras are present yes the chance of getting caught is higher, but this does not mean they WILL get caught. Almost every criminal on the server wears a mask to conceal their identity meaning you can identify what gang they are in but not who the actual perpetrator is rendering them pretty much useless anyway. In every general store there is CCTV does this stop people from robbing them in game? no! I get you want to live in a safe environment but you have chosen to live in a city with huge population of criminals, thus there is a high rate of crime. There are IC consequences and punishments for this and I feel we dont need to OOC punishments on top of this.

[FrankieP]

Just now, cedridge said:

Chillout fanboy, don't worry about me, I understand everything and just stated my opinion, now go cry somewhere else because I'm pretty sure not a single soul on this thread gives a flying fuck about what you have to say.

There's no need to be hostile Jack, it's a game after all

[MrUntouchable215]

Can ya'll shut yo asses up and stop arguing on a discussion thread? You don't have to agree with each other. I'm tryna let people have a productive platform to give honest feed back, don't roast each other. God damn.

[Fanci]

+1 

 

Suggestion:

Hmm... If there was a rule that only robberies or crimes committed against other people consisted of gang on gang only that might potentially keep the entire city from being an NCZ , civilians would feel safe but  one gang member to another could be open season despite being at a clothing store,  gas station.   (besides the previous NCZ areas ofc) Also that way "randoms" wouldn't be allowed to just go around robbing people either , they would need to be affiliated. I could go more into it but I'm sleepy. 

[LokiNoctem]

There should be a system as for new player concerning civilian and gangs in the meaning that action got consequences they got protection as long as they do not associate in any shady business. I often heard talked about a turf system and that would be fair that someone civilian or enemy gang taunting another gun could trigger a robbery or a violent rp because they would not let themselves go.

 

As for the example of the aztecas, as it is for me the most obvious one, their HQ is in the middle of Paleto, they own the place basically. Realistically people living close by would be scared by their presence and telling the cop that someone did something illegal would trigger retaliation from the rest of the organisation. It is up to them to manage their turf being like in a peaceful or violent way. However peaceful would be as it is more boring but safer as police attention would not be draw toward the organisation as for violent, there would be higher crime rate so more detectives assigned to dismantle the organisation.

 

As for new players they need to be taught I have been on the server for 8 months now and I began as a new player I made mistake I got nrp I got warning but today all of the mistake give a better understanding on what is possible in town what are the limit of the game and how thing work. Despite a lot of what people say their is a lot of rp in criminals even with war and stuff that people might not be prior to but are inclined to call out as people being bored. There is both side with criminals here to just play a robbery simulator, those player must be taught how to play as a criminal. And what I am saying being robbed was a pain and stressfull to always watch my back but it also help to learn.

 

The principle of not robbing people in broad daylight in populated area did make life easier for me as well, but rules should be there to support not to constrain if I taunt someone in a gang I shouldn't be surprise to getting rob in the following seconds.

[namoli]

There are rules because so many players LITERALLY DOESNT KNOW WHAT ROLEPLAYING IS . If everyone was playing and acting by the roleplay standarts , we wouldn't even need these rules . Just be realistic and roleplay it out . Making strict rules like " CANT ROB IN CLOTHING STORES " makes people think they are %100 safe In clothing stores but that should never be the Issue , you can never be %100 safe (except NCZ ) .  The rules should be more simple and wide rather than being straight away like " cant do this or that " it should be " If realistic roleplay provided it can be done " there must be an open door for more experienced roleplay players . 

[Korab_Bagadovic]

Just gonna post this here:

 

[Trenix]

Summary of this discussion.

"I don't know how to RP so I need to rob people in broad daylight and in public places to do so. Otherwise I'm not playing or I'll stop playing! Let me also show you some videos of criminals who were caught on camera, were most likely caught and arrested, knowing the same outcome is not possible in a limited 3D, programmed world, where a city only consists of at peak, 600 players rather than 3 million like Los Angeles, which Los Santos is based off of. Also what is roleplay? I came here to have fun and somehow passed the vetting process and have played this way for months!"

Edited May 22, 2020 by Trenix

[FrankieP]

Just now, Trenix said:

Summary of this discussion.

"I don't know how to RP so I need to rob people in broad daylight and in public places to do so. Otherwise I'm not playing or I'll stop playing! Let me also show you some videos of criminals who were caught on camera, were most likely caught and arrested, knowing the same outcome is not possible in a limited 3D, programmed world, where a city only consists of at peak, 600 players rather than 3 million like Los Angeles, which Los Santos is based off of. Also what is roleplay? I came here to have fun!"

pure fax

[Msato]

42 minutes ago, Trenix said:

Summary of this discussion.

"I don't know how to RP so I need to rob people in broad daylight and in public places to do so. Otherwise I'm not playing or I'll stop playing! Let me also show you some videos of criminals who were caught on camera, were most likely caught and arrested, knowing the same outcome is not possible in a limited 3D, programmed world, where a city only consists of at peak, 600 players rather than 3 million like Los Angeles, which Los Santos is based off of. Also what is roleplay? I came here to have fun and somehow passed the vetting process and have played this way for months!"

Interesting summary considering you only included the clear negative points. 

The point of this post was to discuss the current effect that this rule was having on current the state of criminal rp. 

Everyone seems to fail to understand that this post agrees with the rule being used to protect civilians, the issue is the removal of literally almost any conflict between criminals due to this. 

Civilians shouldn't be targeted by criminals I've always said this, however a civilian protection rule shouldn't eliminate criminal rp. 

[Trenix]

3 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

Interesting summary considering you only included the clear negative points. 

The point of this post was to discuss the current effect that this rule was having on current the state of criminal rp. 

Everyone seems to fail to understand that this post agrees with the rule being used to protect civilians, the issue is the removal of literally almost any conflict between criminals due to this. 

Civilians shouldn't be targeted by criminals I've always said this, however a civilian protection rule shouldn't eliminate criminal rp. 

I'm not following you. Sure, these rules limit criminal RP, but it does so for the right reasons. In a living breathing society filled with millions of people, you'll most not likely not do something criminal out in public or to someone completely at random with absolutely no gain, and if you do, expect to be caught. Currently, you wouldn't get caught in-game, because the only witnesses are actual players that cannot fill the amount of streets and roads as an actual city. Also this doesn't eliminate criminal RP, it just restricts robbery. No one says you can't shoot up a rival gang out in the open. Simply the rule means that if you're going to commit a crime, do it somewhere low-key. For an RPer, this should be easy. Players just have to be more creative in how they rob players, including regular pedestrians that look like they have some actual cash on them.

[namoli]

6 hours ago, Trenix said:

I'm not following you. Sure, these rules limit criminal RP, but it does so for the right reasons. In a living breathing society filled with millions of people, you'll most not likely not do something criminal out in public or to someone completely at random with absolutely no gain, and if you do, expect to be caught. Currently, you wouldn't get caught in-game, because the only witnesses are actual players that cannot fill the amount of streets and roads as an actual city. Also this doesn't eliminate criminal RP, it just restricts robbery. No one says you can't shoot up a rival gang out in the open. Simply the rule means that if you're going to commit a crime, do it somewhere low-key. For an RPer, this should be easy. Players just have to be more creative in how they rob players, including regular pedestrians that look like they have some actual cash on them.

 

When there Is so many cop players in the server , so many criminal and robbery restrictions is really lazy , I don't say people should get robbed in daylight everywhere . But people can still should rob people on the streets , its just weird that the place MUST BE A LOW-KEY place to rob . So this means no one will go to a lowkey place anymore . And if you bann robbing people In every place that we interact , then there is nowehere else to go,. Why would you go to a middle of desert alone if there is nothing to do there ? you Wont . 

 

I suggest they put more stuff to do in LOW-KEY areas then it might be more fun ,  because there is no point going to a LOW-KEY area currently there is no risk doing anything in town besides drugs ..    You can literally run around in the city and cant get robbed …    

Adding more activities in lowkey areas can be a really good solution , for example adding extra steps to some jobs which requires you to go and maybe refine your mines before sell them , and they should put more then 1 spot for this so people want to rob should look for them , 

Or you can get paid more if you willing to take the risk and shine your diamonds in a weird place you can get robbed or something .. Its really lazy to just add this rule .. so many things can be done ...