Reducing crime through deterrence: prison time

[Wizzidy]

-1 My big problem with this is that most PD officers just throw charges around because they feel like it, not because they have proof or RP proof. The Chief of police literally told me they are allowed to powergame by cramming a door shut with their cars to catch 3 armed men with 1 officer... and it is allowed... Until there is a way to fight criminal charges giving police the ability to take away 8 hours of in game time from a person is fucking ludicrous. Also I would never suggest anyone get 8 hours max right away regardless of their crime, maximum sentence should be increased upon multiple visits, so if you have a guy that has 130 charges and 15 visits to prison, maybe he gets 8 hours if convicted, or absolute proof is given, but right now between the speed cameras and there no current governmental solution to criminal charges or realistic crime RP to begin with, a static 8 hour jailtime is just a lazy solution at best that will cause more harm than good. Give people things to do scripted in the prison to reduce jailtime or at least be entertained, then maybe talk increase...

[DGanja]

If the cops were actually invested in catching the people commiting crimes, and not the witnesses of the scenes I'd say +1 but as is that would be rediculous. Cops don't care about anyone or their story just about giving charges and making themselves feel accomplished. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by DGanja

[alexalex303]

7 hours ago, LongFist said:

Tough shit that at the end of thr day this is still a game if you dont want to be robbed dont be in a gang

It is most often civilians and people NOT in gangs that get robbed, as most of the gangs have non-aggression pacts with each other.

8 hours ago, CaesarSeizure said:

Everyone saying they don't have time to spend in jail, but have plenty of time to harass other players.

What if i have an hour trying to make some money, only to be interrupted by someone robbing, kidnapping, etc. me reducing the time i have for activities i want by causing me to spend time being robbed, interacting with PD (cause cmon RP is RP) or going to MD after potentially getting killed, which leads to me having to go rebuy equipment, avoid picking my car up etc etc etc.

Why do i have to waste MY time just because you feel that you can't waste YOURS.

like that old saying goes - "don't do the crime, if you cant do the time"

 

Edit. Or if time is too much, have fines for crimes that would act as deterence. I dont know how much the current fines are, but if they were more severe people might spend more time on other activities rather than just constantly robbing people for a few items.

edi2. So just checked on the gov website that the fine for armed robbery (which is most common) is $2k. Most of the time, the items taken off of someone will exceed that value so robbing someone then paying the fine is likely to still be profitable - which it shouldn't.

This is exactly the point. 

Everyone is saying that they don't have time to sit in prison for 8 hours, but what about the person that you robbed, took his car and left him ziptied? Does he have time to run back to someone, and then wait 3 hours for his car to get back to Mors? Does he have time to make money to pay the insurance, radio and whatever else you stole? 

Every time a criminal commits a criminal act against someone, they are taking away from their playing time, so it is unreasonable for them to say that they don't have time to sit in prison, because they just play to rob and attack others.

[gohena]

-1

[Linden]

3 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

wait 3 hours for his car to get back to Mors

That's 3 hours, not 3 hours playtime. What's wrong with increasing prison times but allowing the timer to tick down while offline?

[CaesarSeizure]

3 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

This is exactly the point. 

Everyone is saying that they don't have time to sit in prison for 8 hours, but what about the person that you robbed, took his car and left him ziptied? Does he have time to run back to someone, and then wait 3 hours for his car to get back to Mors? Does he have time to make money to pay the insurance, radio and whatever else you stole? 

Every time a criminal commits a criminal act against someone, they are taking away from their playing time, so it is unreasonable for them to say that they don't have time to sit in prison, because they just play to rob and attack others.

Exactly, honestly having time and fine penalties which would let you choose of which you want to spend more could help - you have time, well make yourself at home, dont have the time, well this fine that you have to pay + extra costs (aka bail) should make more sense to you.

 

Honestly the person who gets robbed spends <5min getting robbed and more time getting back to the same state than the person in jail, and most of the time, the person robbing gets more $$$ from the robbery than the fine for the crime.

[CaesarSeizure]

@alexalex303 can you go AFK while in prison, like leave your PC + game on to pass the time? Or does the afk timer kick in

[Wizzidy]

Just now, CaesarSeizure said:

@alexalex303 can you go AFK while in prison, like leave your PC + game on to pass the time? Or does the afk timer kick in

you still have afk checks so its like semi afk

[alexalex303]

30 minutes ago, Linden said:

That's 3 hours, not 3 hours playtime. What's wrong with increasing prison times but allowing the timer to tick down while offline?

Don't straw man me. What about the time that it takes him to find someone to cut the zip ties that were added for no reason? What about the time it takes him to get to Mors without a vehicle? What about the time it takes him to get the money to retrieve the vehicle, and replace the lost items? Is that offline time as well?

[Linden]

2 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

Don't straw man me. What about the time that it takes him to find someone to cut the zip ties that were added for no reason? What about the time it takes him to get to Mors without a vehicle? What about the time it takes him to get the money to retrieve the vehicle, and replace the lost items? Is that offline time as well?

Then add the ability to break your own zipties? Once you're out of zipties you call a friend for a lift, or the cops to report the kidnapping and get a lift into town. Time to get the money to retrieve the vehicle? It's $500, you get that just by being online. Lost items? Shit happens, it's only a bit of money. At worst they steal your gun (you should only have one on you). As people have stated you can easily hit max prison time for multiple counts of misdemeanours. Any time I make a suggestion it gets ignored or one thing gets picked out and disagreed with.

 

It's not reasonable to expect people to spend what is equal to a day of work/school inside a prison cell. 8+ hours should require a Judicial faction to actually sentence you, and if time counts down while offline you could look at locking a character up for days. Give people the option to play some of those hours and sleep off the rest, or play a different character. Having a lot of people in prison with extended sentences could have good roleplay potential but there needs to be enough people inside, enough guards, and actual things to do.

 

How often do stolen cars even get scrapped anyway? In my experience it gets used in a few robberies or driven around until it runs out of fuel. Scrapping isn't worth it most of the time.. a few thousand bucks split between a big group of people, or if you go alone then another gang will come rob you anyway. The issues need to be resolved through multiple complex systems which will pit gangs against each other, reduce crimes committed against civilians, and provide better opportunities for all players. Gang points, drug system changes, reduced access to assault rifles, enforced gang rivalries through control of smuggling operations (through points), Judical faction, etc.

[alexalex303]

19 minutes ago, Linden said:

Then add the ability to break your own zipties? Once you're out of zipties you call a friend for a lift, or the cops to report the kidnapping and get a lift into town. Time to get the money to retrieve the vehicle? It's $500, you get that just by being online. Lost items? Shit happens, it's only a bit of money. At worst they steal your gun (you should only have one on you). As people have stated you can easily hit max prison time for multiple counts of misdemeanours. Any time I make a suggestion it gets ignored or one thing gets picked out and disagreed with.

 

It's not reasonable to expect people to spend what is equal to a day of work/school inside a prison cell. 8+ hours should require a Judicial faction to actually sentence you, and if time counts down while offline you could look at locking a character up for days. Give people the option to play some of those hours and sleep off the rest, or play a different character. Having a lot of people in prison with extended sentences could have good roleplay potential but there needs to be enough people inside, enough guards, and actual things to do.

 

How often do stolen cars even get scrapped anyway? In my experience it gets used in a few robberies or driven around until it runs out of fuel. Scrapping isn't worth it most of the time.. a few thousand bucks split between a big group of people, or if you go alone then another gang will come rob you anyway. The issues need to be resolved through multiple complex systems which will pit gangs against each other, reduce crimes committed against civilians, and provide better opportunities for all players. Gang points, drug system changes, reduced access to assault rifles, enforced gang rivalries through control of smuggling operations (through points), Judical faction, etc.

I don't think you have a lot of experience with getting robbed by a gang.

As far as I know, you can't break out alone right now, so adding the ability, different discussion.

Call a friend? or the cops? They took your phone battery too. For no reason, it's $150, just to do it. 

A gun costs ~$5000 now, and if they break into your car, you could have a spare there, that's $10000. Taking out your vehicle is $500 from the parking garage, but how much is it from Mors? Oh, another couple thousands. Pair that with the bobby pins to break out of zip ties, with the phone battery, one/two guns and we're talking $20,000.

Plus if you were doing a job like fishining, mining, trucking, or any other job? That was interrupted for hours. Shit happens, just not to the criminals, they are exempt?

The idea is simple, if criminal action makes someone lose x amount of time from their activity/progression, how is it unfair to expect the criminal (if caught) to also lose out in activity/progression?

Edited May 25, 2019 by alexalex303

[Linden]

3 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I don't think you have a lot of experience with getting robbed by a gang.

You can not break out of zipties as of right now, so adding the ability, different discussion. Call a friend? or the cops? They took your phone battery too. For no reason, it's $150, just to do it. Lost items, shit happens. Right, so why can shit happen that someone loses something they worked for, for 8 hours, and that's shit happens, but when the same person is made to go to jail for 8 hours, that's suddenly unreasonable?

A gun costs ~$5000 now, and if they break into your car, you could have a spare there, that's $10000. Taking out your vehicle is $500 from the parking garage, but how much is it from Mors? Oh, another couple thousands. Pair that with the bobby pins to break out of zip ties, with the phone battery, one/two guns and we're talking $20,000.

Plus if you were doing a job like fishining, mining, trucking, or any other job? That was interrupted for hours. Shit happens, just not to the criminals, they are exempt?

The idea is simple, if criminal action makes someone lose x amount of time from their activity/progression, how is it unfair to expect the criminal (if caught) to also lose out in activity/progression?

You brought up zipties, so I countered that. It's relevant to the fucking discussion and you're complaining and saying it shouldn't be discussed here. I'll bring this one up here too because it's fucking relevant, add in phones around the map and at stores. You get kidnapped and dumped somewhere, phone battery stolen? Run for 5 minutes and you can call 911. It isn't taken for "no reason" by the way, they don't want you to call the cops on them. IRL they would take your phone but they don't have that option here. Somebody worked 8 hours without thinking "I should probably go to the bank or store these items somewhere"? When I applied for a gun license it asked how I would securely store my guns; it's the same way I store all my items. I put them into my Warrener then store the vehicle in the garage. People get robbed in real life and there are people who don't even lock their front doors then stand there looking like an idiot wondering how somebody could have possibly stolen from them.
 

 

I've been robbed multiple times and each time only lost around $3000 with the exception of the time I had a gun that cost me $8,000. IDGAF because it's not about winning and losing, it's not about becoming the richest knob in the city. You want to reduce crime in the city then fix the actual issues instead of just slapping a big OOC punishment on people. But hey I guess I could rewatch the entire LOTR Extended Edition everytime I go to prison.

 

People do lose out by getting a long prison sentence even if it counts while offline. While in prison you're not making money or progressing in anything. Them being online for that period or offline makes no difference except they have to sit at their computer and watch four 120 minute long movies. Some people can only play an hour or two each day so eight hours could mean a week of nothing to do. I'll say it again 8 hours online should only be a consideration if Judicial exists. The police shouldn't have that power.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Linden

[Bala]

I think there are two things we can take as fact here, no criminal wants to go to prison and the two hour limit on prison doesn't deter people from committing very serious crimes quite openly. There is a carefree attitude towards prison, because all things considered in a couple hours, you're free to do whatever you like again and if you are a donator, an hour and a half.

I've seen arguments about DOC being small and prison being an AFK zone, but don't you understand that if we keep the max time at two hours, that is NEVER going to change. Corrections from the outside looks really boring, because half the time prison is empty. Prison roleplay is boring because there aren't enough people there to make it worthwhile roleplaying inside prison.

Here is an example of how stupid the current system is. Flint Carwyn went to prison the other night for the maximum time. After he was imprisoned, Zetas kidnapped a cop and held him hostage, for the release of Flint. By the time the situation was finished, Flint was free. It was a waste of time for everyone involved, yet if Flint was in prison for 4 hours or 6 hours or whatever, there would be more on the line there.

People assume that PD just want to fuck criminals over but the truth of it is, we rely on you guys committing crime to do our thing. Without you killing each other or trying to evade, we have very little to do. 

There is also the fact that once you are in prison, you can pretty much commit whatever crime you want and you won't really see any further consequence. DOC should have the ability to give you early release for good behaviour or extend your original sentence by some if you commit crimes in jail.

Investigations Casefiles on people can take days, even weeks to build but when the pay-off is an hour or two in prison, what is the actual point?

I've never been in a roleplay server where there was a functional and practical court system, so asking for a judiciary is little more than a pipe dream. It's just too time consuming and like the Investigation Casefiles, wouldn't be worth the time it would take to process everything for a small sentence.

This also makes visitation more worthwhile, as there is more opportunity to visit people, the longer they are in prison.

So, here's what i'm suggesting..

• Prison time stays capped at two hours if you don't have any serious or gun-related felonies.
  This would mean that for charges like Reckless Operation of a Motor Vehicle, you'd still only get a max of 2 hours, even with say, multiple counts of Reckless Operation.
  However, if you had felonies like Murder, Kidnapping, Drug/Firearm Trafficking then the two hour limit wouldn't apply.
   
• Prison time would be capped at up to four hours on your first time being charged with serious felonies and up to six hours if you'd committed serious felonies before.
  This would soften the blow a little for first timers to get used to the system but also, for those that are persistent offenders, it would serve them with adequate punishment for their crimes.
   
• Prisoners could be released early for good behaviour when they've served 80% of their sentence by DOC.
  For example, this would give someone with a 5 hour sentence the ability to be released after 4 hours.
   
• Prisoners could have their original sentence increased by up to 20% if they commit crimes in DOC.
  DOC won't be able to add extra charges in the MDC but they'd have to document the increase with evidence as to why obviously.
  For example, this would give someone with a 5 hour sentence, up to a potential six hour sentence if they committed criminal acts in prison.
   
• Add a prison job that allows felons to make money in prison and also, allows them to have something to do.
  Obviously this would have to be less than the normal jobs, as it's prison but it gives you something else to do and allows you at least some progression. The job could be things like creating those ready meals for prisoners or sewing mailbags or some shit.
   
• Add in a Punishment Appeal type-system that is ran by non-Law Enforcement high ups in the community to allow prisoners to appeal for wrongful arrest.
  The thing these court systems seem to get wrong is expecting every arrest to be put before a judge.
  The best way to do it would be after you have served your sentence but if it was proved that the imprisonment wasn't legit, the Police Department would have to compensate the person and within the PD, the responsible officer would be subject to disciplinary measures.
  The reason why I suggest after is because it's very rare that an arrest isn't correct but obviously with the investigations bureau, there is more opportunity for mistakes to be made.

No point having a new prison interior if there's no one in there to make use of it.

[Wizzidy]

51 minutes ago, Linden said:

 I'll say it again 8 hours should only be a consideration if Judicial exists. The police shouldn't have that power.

This is my point of contention... I work at the DOC and 90% of the time the people sentenced didn't have proper investigations, no legal argument, no nothing... just a bunch of PD players not bound by admin code jailing people at whim... and I swear to god if somebody says a word about IA I will start posting screenshots of all the halfassed answers to IA reports I have gotten back that all ultimately result in "not in the wrong".

[Linden]

2 hours ago, GOAT said:

I think there are two things we can take as fact here, no criminal wants to go to prison and the two hour limit on prison doesn't deter people from committing very serious crimes quite openly. There is a carefree attitude towards prison, because all things considered in a couple hours, you're free to do whatever you like again and if you are a donator, an hour and a half.

I've seen arguments about DOC being small and prison being an AFK zone, but don't you understand that if we keep the max time at two hours, that is NEVER going to change. Corrections from the outside looks really boring, because half the time prison is empty. Prison roleplay is boring because there aren't enough people there to make it worthwhile roleplaying inside prison.

Here is an example of how stupid the current system is. Flint Carwyn went to prison the other night for the maximum time. After he was imprisoned, Zetas kidnapped a cop and held him hostage, for the release of Flint. By the time the situation was finished, Flint was free. It was a waste of time for everyone involved, yet if Flint was in prison for 4 hours or 6 hours or whatever, there would be more on the line there.

People assume that PD just want to fuck criminals over but the truth of it is, we rely on you guys committing crime to do our thing. Without you killing each other or trying to evade, we have very little to do. 

There is also the fact that once you are in prison, you can pretty much commit whatever crime you want and you won't really see any further consequence. DOC should have the ability to give you early release for good behaviour or extend your original sentence by some if you commit crimes in jail.

Investigations Casefiles on people can take days, even weeks to build but when the pay-off is an hour or two in prison, what is the actual point?

I've never been in a roleplay server where there was a functional and practical court system, so asking for a judiciary is little more than a pipe dream. It's just too time consuming and like the Investigation Casefiles, wouldn't be worth the time it would take to process everything for a small sentence.

This also makes visitation more worthwhile, as there is more opportunity to visit people, the longer they are in prison.

So, here's what i'm suggesting..

• Prison time stays capped at two hours if you don't have any serious or gun-related felonies.
  This would mean that for charges like Reckless Operation of a Motor Vehicle, you'd still only get a max of 2 hours, even with say, multiple counts of Reckless Operation.
  However, if you had felonies like Murder, Kidnapping, Drug/Firearm Trafficking then the two hour limit wouldn't apply.
   
• Prison time would be capped at up to four hours on your first time being charged with serious felonies and up to six hours if you'd committed serious felonies before.
  This would soften the blow a little for first timers to get used to the system but also, for those that are persistent offenders, it would serve them with adequate punishment for their crimes.
   
• Prisoners could be released early for good behaviour when they've served 80% of their sentence by DOC.
  For example, this would give someone with a 5 hour sentence the ability to be released after 4 hours.
   
• Prisoners could have their original sentence increased by up to 20% if they commit crimes in DOC.
  DOC won't be able to add extra charges in the MDC but they'd have to document the increase with evidence as to why obviously.
  For example, this would give someone with a 5 hour sentence, up to a potential six hour sentence if they committed criminal acts in prison.
   
• Add a prison job that allows felons to make money in prison and also, allows them to have something to do.
  Obviously this would have to be less than the normal jobs, as it's prison but it gives you something else to do and allows you at least some progression. The job could be things like creating those ready meals for prisoners or sewing mailbags or some shit.
   
• Add in a Punishment Appeal type-system that is ran by non-Law Enforcement high ups in the community to allow prisoners to appeal for wrongful arrest.
  The thing these court systems seem to get wrong is expecting every arrest to be put before a judge.
  The best way to do it would be after you have served your sentence but if it was proved that the imprisonment wasn't legit, the Police Department would have to compensate the person and within the PD, the responsible officer would be subject to disciplinary measures.
  The reason why I suggest after is because it's very rare that an arrest isn't correct but obviously with the investigations bureau, there is more opportunity for mistakes to be made.

No point having a new prison interior if there's no one in there to make use of it.

I've actually mentioned some of these points before (little in this thread, some more as part of a Judicial thread) to little point. I don't really agree with the original suggestion which I believe is why discussion on how it can be done is important. It's more useful to have a final suggestion in the original post rather than expecting staff to read all 5 pages.

A new suggestion thread that approaches things a little differently may be better than trying to change the original suggestion, and I think your post pretty much sums it up.

The comment about criminals seeing police as fun-wreckers is pretty much spot on and it sucks that it's the general opinion. Police are incredibly important to server health and so are criminals, though the balance is a little off. Implementing systems that improve that balance and make all aspects more fun for people involved are always good.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Linden

[Bala]

To me, my suggestions at least give the criminals a chance.

The whole "Reckless Operation" thing is actually kind of underhanded, but it's not something that we as Police control. Personally, I don't think there should ever be anything in the server assigning automatic charges because to me, it's power-gaming. I get it was done for OOC reasons but we're told not to take OOC stuff IC and vice versa so why is this any different?

Fines, yes. Misdemeanors, no.

I don't want to fuck the criminals over, because we need there to be at least some kind of OOC understanding between us and them, but I feel like the punishment also needs to fit the crime.

I want to achieve..

• Leniency for first time offenders, which at least gives them a chance.
• Rewards the Investigations Bureau for their extensive role-play and case-building.
• Rewards the criminals for conducting their business in a more clandestine and smart way.
• Gives those that are caught something to do.
• Gives Corrections something more to do.
• Gives us all the opportunity to do more with prison roleplay i.e. breakouts, transports etc..

Not interested in fucking over the Zetas or sending Marcellos to prison for half a day. 

Perhaps I should make my own suggestion, kinda piggybacking on this one.

[Ledas]

+1

[alexalex303]

still a relevant suggestion.

[Reckless311]

If you really want to make it hurt to commit crime, add the /afkmath to prisoners so they have to actually be in prison instead of sitting and forgetting while you watch a movie.  Prison isn't supposed to be fun. You screw over other players with crimes and they have to suffer, the criminals should have to suffer as well.  It should make you reconsider your life choices and whether you want the possibility of having a miserable extended period of time in "hell" or if you'll be smarter about how you choose to commit crime in the future, being more subtle and smart with it.  This proposal makes a lot of sense and I hope they implement something like this to curb the nonsensical nature of crime as it stands now.

[LongFist]

if this get implemented cops should actually RP instead of just arresting everyone for every reason they get. 

[TheCactus]

15 hours ago, LongFist said:

if this get implemented cops should actually RP instead of just arresting everyone for every reason they get. 

LSPD ans LSEMS are the factions that RP more in the server. Change my mind

[Tomvd682]

3 minutes ago, TheCactus said:

LSPD ans LSEMS are the factions that RP more in the server. Change my mind

/me Jumps on the man
/do success?

/me Cuffs the man
/do success?

/me Gets the man up
/do success?

/me takes the man into the cruiser
/do success?

Criminal: /would resist
Bolice officer: *TAZE

*Le epic swat with heavy armor (worth of 250 hp in total) running faster than other people while carrying 5+ guns with 200 ammo each, a tazer and a baton

[TheCactus]

So you are basically talking shit about swat because the server doesn't have scripts about their running speed.

Go on..

[Tomvd682]

Just now, TheCactus said:

So you are basically talking shit about swat because the server doesn't have scripts about their running speed.

Go on..

Could name a lot more, but as you can see; people like you usually focus on a thing that you guys don't agree with.

[TheCactus]

15 minutes ago, Tomvd682 said:

/me Jumps on the man
/do success?

/me Cuffs the man
/do success?

/me Gets the man up
/do success?

/me takes the man into the cruiser
/do success?

Criminal: /would resist
Bolice officer: *TAZE

*Le epic swat with heavy armor (worth of 250 hp in total) running faster than other people while carrying 5+ guns with 200 ammo each, a tazer and a baton

You have to RP if you want to change the scenario.

If you stand there like a puppet we treat you like puppets. Duh..

Won't consider your answers anymore