The use of derogatory slurs in VOIP

[IAmTurtle]

+1 

There are a set of words that are used that have been used and abused so much that they no longer can truly be held for an ic-character development. 

Rules in society are made due to the small group of people who abuse it. And thats is what has happened here.  

[AtlasOLimbo]

+1

It makes no sense that we require people to ask consent before even spitting on someone but we let people spit verbal venom towards others, very obviously outside of "character development". Honestly in most cases a lot of the things people say would get you knocked out, but no one wants to face consequences for their actions.

[Ultra3D]

11 minutes ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

+1

It makes no sense that we require people to ask consent before even spitting on someone but we let people spit verbal venom towards others, very obviously outside of "character development". Honestly in most cases a lot of the things people say would get you knocked out, but no one wants to face consequences for their actions.

Its a game and all you need to do is "/b dont say that please" and they will need to stop. Simple.

[AtlasOLimbo]

11 minutes ago, Ultra3D said:

Its a game and all you need to do is "/b dont say that please" and they will need to stop. Simple.

So someone has to break their immersion and roleplay for some random slur slinger? People abused the leniency they were given with the rule, same as robberies/kidnapping. We adapted before and we can adapt again. 

[Bala]

1 hour ago, Ultra3D said:

Its a game and all you need to do is "/b dont say that please" and they will need to stop. Simple.

Tell that to the group of individuals I spent 5 minutes trucking to DOC that decided to call each other f****t back and forth. When they were told to stop, they replied with cutting /b. That's anything but simple. Admins were busy elsewhere at the time, so we had to put up with it. 

Does that happen all the time, no? Does it happen a lot? Probably not, can't really judge. But does it still happen too much? Yes.

These slurs aren't even used for meaningful RP, it's just people thinking it's funny or edgy to drop N bombs on people. Yeah, perhaps it'd take some of the edge of some of the street RP that gangs do but there are a number of potential solutions.

• We blanket ban the use of specific words.
• We blanket ban all derogatory terms linked to race, sexual orientation and gender.
• We allow all derogatory terms but everyone involved in a specific situation must consent OOCly beforehand.
  This would allow private roleplay to still allow for it. Example, a street gang hanging out with one another or arguing with another group that has given their consent to it.
• We allow some terms with OOC permission but ban others specific terms.

I'm not suggesting a ban on insults here. You want to call someone a dick, call them a dick. You want to call them a pussy, call them a pussy. But there are certain words that carry too much weight to people to throw around like we do, even with a partial rule in place. Those words are the words we can yeet.

If it's a first offence, then the administrators should be reasonable with their punishment, of course. I realise that people casually say these things sometimes, both in IRL and IC and don't mean it necessarily in a nasty way but to others, it can come across as nothing but malicious. If someone is however going to continue using these kind of terms however, then they should be gone from Eclipse.

On a personal level, I've made this topic as much for myself to remind me to be better as much as try and improve the community side of Eclipse. Like I said, i've said some of this stuff in the past but it is wrong to do it and we don't need to be doing it, we can have as much fun without it and be more inclusive wid it.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Bala

[katalystrose]

+1 You can still roleplay a racist person or a homophobic person without needing to lean on slurs to be "realistic". I personally don't understand why people would need to make that an aspect of their character in the first place, or why that would be fun or add value.

The current way this is dealt with is useful and I think should still be the way to handle the situation, because even if you make the guidelines more strict there are going to be people who were raised a certain way or in a certain area/environment where using those words is normal or a reflex, so if someone makes the occasional mistake there should still be room to kindly remind them that those words shouldn't be used.

Banning it would hopefully limit people using the fact that these things are currently permitted to make people intentionally uncomfortable, like telling an offensive joke with the intent to offend and saying "oh it was just a joke, calm down" and not accepting any responsibility for the effect their words have on others. 

[Copes]

I'm indifferent about this suggestion.

Around the early stages of my time in this community I recall a storyline between myself and another long time player that was entirely centered around discrimination towards my character. The way I was treated by this person and the slurs directed at me during interactions, mostly during gang politics, made me genuinely mad on both an IC and OOC level. However, I had never been more emotionally invested or immersed in a game until this point. In the end, both of our character progression was fantastic (The antagonist also turned out to be a great guy ooc). This is an example of what explicit storytelling has to offer.

On the other hand, we've all had interactions with people who abuse the ability to say whatever they so please. In a lot of these encounters you can definitely tell that they aren't using these slurs for the sake of portraying their character. While I haven't had many of these experiences as of recent, it has certainly been a problem. As Alex said, given the environment and attitude of some players, I am not surprised at all that this is a topic of discussion.

I don't think that vocabulary should be limited outright, but I do understand the concern and feel for those that are effected by this issue.

Ideally I think that excessive, pointless, and straight up malicious use of slurs should be dealt with on a case by case basis. But I know that it isn't an easy task and a lot is left up to interpretation. Hope my input is helpful.

[Frezas]

I would like to state my opinion (don't judge me, please). I have built my character being against LGBT (in game, not IRL) as many of you might know I role-play being a German who is a bit excessive on right-wing politics and having to break my character due to that would make a game harder for me personally.

Furthermore, I understand what you mean when it starts to become more OOCly than ICly, and it becomes the problem for community. But disallowing certain words would make this a bit of censorship, which I believe is not needed as people need to separate themselves from Rolepay and IRL triggering. Thus further, most players I have seen when told /b Can you stop using these words? Immediately stop and apologize. I think one incident doesn't describe our community. GTA V is rated to be M (Mature (over 17+)) as a game and this describes why, as you can see from GTA online and Story mode, sexism, homophobic and racial things exist and we can even see ads on billboards in game. As we role-play real life, it's necessary to implement all kind of incidents which occur daily. And I am sorry, but I stand against censoring words, role-play needs to be free as banning this will make another topic 3 months later about banning something again till everyone RP's the same thing.  (Call PD say that someone is giving hate speech, and they will deal ICly). If someone writes something against you on Discord, that's another question.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Frezas

[Krish Roshan]

4 hours ago, Bala said:

• We blanket ban the use of specific words.
• We blanket ban all derogatory terms linked to race, sexual orientation and gender.
• We allow all derogatory terms but everyone involved in a specific situation must consent OOCly beforehand.
  This would allow private roleplay to still allow for it. Example, a street gang hanging out with one another or arguing with another group that has given their consent to it.
• We allow some terms with OOC permission but ban others specific terms

Explain what words you plan on banning, also do you understand how having to ask ooc "can i talk shit to you" would just feel manufactured not to mention they could just not consent to it, personally the demographic that plays this game should be able to handle people who are using slurs and banning words is not the solution honestly in nearly a years worth of playing I am yet to run into someone who has actually offended me through the use of slurs.  

[Ultra3D]

6 hours ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

So someone has to break their immersion and roleplay for some random slur slinger? People abused the leniency they were given with the rule, same as robberies/kidnapping. We adapted before and we can adapt again. 

Banning words/actions breaks immersion my dude.

[NotOnlyAce]

10 hours ago, Ultra3D said:

Its a game and all you need to do is "/b dont say that please" and they will need to stop. Simple.

We were in a situation where multiple people were overusing the word f****t, @gmtavares told them in /b to stop doing that. Only reply we got from them was /b cut /b. So I think it's not going to well and the damage is already done at that point.

Edited October 14, 2021 by buta

[piney]

9 hours ago, Bala said:

Tell that to the group of individuals I spent 5 minutes trucking to DOC that decided to call each other f****t back and forth. When they were told to stop, they replied with cutting /b. That's anything but simple. Admins were busy elsewhere at the time, so we had to put up with it. 

I'm not sure if banning fa**ot entirely would have necessarily changed the outcome of this situation. What you're describing here is a rulebreak in which you've asked the individuals to stop using a certain slur, and they basically tell you to shut up and continue doing it. It may be possible that a proper ban would stop some individuals from using such words, in order to prevent being banned, but this type of situation could happen regardless, and the outcome is the same - they either get reported and punished or they don't get reported.
I don't know exactly what sort of punishments are received for this sort of thing currently however.

What do you think is the appropriate punishment for someone's second offense of using a slur, in the case that they are blanket banned?

 

10 hours ago, Bala said:

 

• We blanket ban the use of specific words.
• We blanket ban all derogatory terms linked to race, sexual orientation and gender.
• We allow all derogatory terms but everyone involved in a specific situation must consent OOCly beforehand.
  This would allow private roleplay to still allow for it. Example, a street gang hanging out with one another or arguing with another group that has given their consent to it.
• We allow some terms with OOC permission but ban others specific terms.

I'm not suggesting a ban on insults here. You want to call someone a dick, call them a dick. You want to call them a pussy, call them a pussy. But there are certain words that carry too much weight to people to throw around like we do, even with a partial rule in place. Those words are the words we can yeet.
 

I must say, as a woman I am not for banning "gender based" derogatory terms. And this is where it gets tricky as well, because what someone actually finds too offensive is very subjective. It's clear even in your paragraph here, where you on one hand suggest blanket banning insults based on gender, but then say that calling someone a pussy or a dick is fine. I think those fall into the gender based category, whether you think they should be exempt or not. What if someone does find either of those specific words really offensive? What about bitch, again a word that typically falls into the gender based category, but is generally uncensored and allowed in most circumstances? There may be people who don't take kindly to that word at all or have personal experience with that specific word being used to bully or otherwise hurt them.

I wouldn't personally be affected if a ban was put in place, and on a personal level there are certain words I would be more than happy to go without on the server, but the main issue is where do you start, and where do you stop? It's a complex issue that could very easily turn into politics and screaming matches if certain words are banned and others aren't.
 

Quote

• Players using offensive language IC must not use it excessively and must stop if asked OOCly.

I feel that this rule could be elaborated on or emphasized a bit more, urging the members to use common sense and have respect for others, and to focus on what is sensible for their characters, rather than treating ECRP as GTA Online. I am well aware that there are some people who do not care for character development and whose primary goal is to get a rise out of others OOCly - however, I again fail to see how any blanket bans are going to eliminate this problem.

In my opinion the already existing rule should instead be elaborated on a bit further, made clear and emphasized. Making it known that not playing seriously and hurling vulgarities at people for no reason other than "because you can" or because you want to get under people's skin OOCly has consequences, and what those consequences are.

 

TLDR; I simply feel we already have the tool in place, and that adding more tools doesn't change anything from a big picture perspective.

[Bala]

@piney When I say gender based, I don't mean sexist insults like bitch. When I say gender based, I'm talking about calling someone a "trap" for example because their voice is more masculine.

I think that's something that has perhaps been misunderstood, I'm talking about the worst case insults here. I don't want us to get rid of all insults, I just want to get rid of the ones that are going to have the most negative impact typically on a person OOC. Specifically racial and homo/transphobic insults.

With respect, using common sense to guide rules in an ideal world is a great idea but here, common sense is not all that common. If players can say or do something, they will to the fullest extent possible.

Currently, you'd have to explain your context to an admin for using some of these slurs but what I'm suggesting is that, if you use specific slurs, there is no room for debate. You just should not be using them. You use them once, you get a warning for it. You use them again and you're gone. 

We have far too many ambiguous rules that go into shades of grey. Something like this should be black and white.

[GR_Seb]

It doesn't matter if people support this topic or are in favor of it.  Honestly, in a server that certain people play to murder others like it's nothing, we're discussing about their vocabulary. Imagine if for a single day, with no announcement, every player death was a character kill, and you had to create everything again, there would only be around 6 people playing.  It is a game, and for everyone to enjoy this game, we need to have a mature community that understands what's right or wrong.  The majority is educated enough to know how certain words and ways those words are being said have only ill intentions. The only intention is to make the user playing feel bad, out of competition.  Roleplaying is a competitive game, everyone wants millions, fast cars, approval, recognition. No matter how many topics we create, it comes down to those who use these words to cause harm instead of making the roleplay scene more immersive.  There is a time and place to do everything, but it all comes down to concent.  Be polite and request concent before you use these words, None is saying that we should ban those words, but there's a certain time, place, and scenario that those words can be used.  Eclipse is a multi-culture community.  We all have our differences, we grew up different, we talk different, we understand some things differently. What unites us is common understanding, the rules and concent.

[Ultra3D]

4 hours ago, buta said:

We were in a situation where multiple people were overusing the word f****t, @gmtavares told them in /b to stop doing that. Only reply we got from them was /b cut /b. So I think it's not going to well and the damage is already done at that point.

Then report? You think Banning the words are going to prevent people from saying it? No. It just means more reports and less RP.

[Bala]

3 hours ago, Ultra3D said:

Then report? You think Banning the words are going to prevent people from saying it? No. It just means more reports and less RP.

You're advocating making a report, then saying that changing it will result in more reports? That make no sense.
Also, what RP isn't going to happen because you can't throw a N Bomb around? Racist RP? 

How many RPers do you know that use these terms and how many of those use those terms for the betterment of RP and not as a lazy insult?

Eclipse taking a zero stance on these certain slurs is going to at the very least give those affected by them, the knowledge that the community cares about their enjoyment and isn't going to let people weasel their way out of getting in trouble for it by saying stuff like "it's part of my RP" and depending on the staff member they get, might get away with it and might not.

We want people to stream the game, to get more people into Eclipse Roleplay but no reputable big streamer is going to stick around on Eclipse with this kind of behaviour happening.

We don't just want roleplay in game, we want a better community. Some of the best people I've known in ECRP are part of ethnic minorities, are homosexual or transsexual. It's helped me in my own personal life be more accepting of different people to myself. I think that's something to be encouraged and celebrated.

If it means that more people enjoy their time in Eclipse, we can give up saying the N word and such, surely?

 

[Ultra3D]

6 minutes ago, Bala said:

You're advocating making a report, then saying that changing it will result in more reports? That make no sense.
Also, what RP isn't going to happen because you can't throw a N Bomb around? Racist RP? 

How many RPers do you know that use these terms and how many of those use those terms for the betterment of RP and not as a lazy insult?

Eclipse taking a zero stance on these certain slurs is going to at the very least give those affected by them, the knowledge that the community cares about their enjoyment and isn't going to let people weasel their way out of getting in trouble for it by saying stuff like "it's part of my RP" and depending on the staff member they get, might get away with it and might not.

We want people to stream the game, to get more people into Eclipse Roleplay but no reputable big streamer is going to stick around on Eclipse with this kind of behaviour happening.

We don't just want roleplay in game, we want a better community. Some of the best people I've known in ECRP are part of ethnic minorities, are homosexual or transsexual. It's helped me in my own personal life be more accepting of different people to myself. I think that's something to be encouraged and celebrated.

If it means that more people enjoy their time in Eclipse, we can give up saying the N word and such, surely?

 

I personally have never said thing mentioned in this post IC. But I dont care if its said. There is already rules on it and I dont feel we need more, and when it comes to a better community I feel that there are 1 for every 50 people who use these words. I dont see this bettering the community. I feel time should be spent working on report mentality and punishments rather than give people more reasons to report.

[Dimja]

10 minutes ago, griffinwd said:

Of course you would say that you fucking queer.

Thats not nice

[Ultra3D]

11 minutes ago, griffinwd said:

Of course you would say that you fucking queer.

see @Bala I dont agree with this. This is cringe.

[AtlasOLimbo]

The main argument I see here against this is "it's 18+" (Which it isn't. It's 17+ per the ESRB.)  That's a silly argument at best. The cases of slurs in GTA V are planned and written out by people who get paid to develop characters and write their dialogue, and honestly I find some of the GTA humour itself in poor taste. The community here has shown they're nowhere near the level of aptitude when it comes to actually using slurs in scenarios that make sense. Running up to a random person and calling them "trap" or "tr*nny" in a public place because you perceived a difference in identity is honestly likely to get your ass thrown to the ground. But people do it anyways, constantly, because they know that without "further escalation". Nothing can be done besides OOC.

[Vyse Legend]

I fully agree with Dizzy here.  Racial slurs and derogatory slurs do not need to be used here at all, you don't need to use hateful language to convey a message in character.  Anyone believing that a character needs to speak this way needs to learn how to roleplay.  The fact that I keep seeing people say "freedom of speech" on here is the dumbest shit I've seen on here in a long time and I'd say I'm amazed but sadly I'm not.  I wasn't aware freedom of speech was to degrade people using derogatory terms, but I guess some of you think that's actually a right?

I myself am not a fan of OOC restrictions on RP, but this is something I don't see as a restriction, I don't speak this way in real life, ever.  Why the hell do characters do?  18+ game or not, somethings simply have no place anywhere, ever.  

As Waryerz said, "If you can't enjoy roleplay without the use of slurs, it's no longer in-character." 

 

Also, 99% of other servers have rules directly against this.

[Ultra3D]

7 minutes ago, Vyse Legend said:

Why the hell do characters do?  18+ game or not, somethings simply have no place anywhere, ever.  
 

 

I dont agree or disagree with anything you said. But I want to bring this up to you. GTA itself has built in racism, homophobia, and sexism in its base game and online. If you do not like being near or apart of anything that has that I hate to say it but GTA is not the game for you.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Ultra3D

[Actualbears]

While I understand there is a need for some form of maturity since we're playing a literal game called grand theft auto V.

 

One can only pull up into a group while driving and get bombarded with getting called and witnessing others shout faggot, homo, nigger, retard, labas, kike, heeb, dirty jew, tranny and most of the American based slur handbook by a sixteen year old roleplaying a hardened street gangster before it becomes both OOC tedious to roleplay with such induvial as they continue to shout nigger and retard into their microphone mid-arrest to vent their OOC anger in an attempt to send it off as IC. 

At that point attempting to ask them to cut it out with the slurs in /b would either get the slurring player off as they're stroking their egoistical dick and feel satisfied from having made someone uncomfortable and seeing it with the /b to ask them to tone it down or attempt to cause an OOC/IC act from their slurring that could work in their favor.

A change would be good, not so much to protect the majority of streamers but for the entirety of the server pop.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Actualbears

[Jerzy Mceden]

+1 Even in the Irl hood the homies aren't running around hard R'in it's always "nigga" , so to say people need to hard R for character purposes is straight bullshit , and nobody uses the word faggot anymore irl but 12yr olds on CoD.

[Destuin]

If this goes through watch the report forums get absolutely flooded. The already high chance of getting banned will be even higher. Everytime any slur is used there will be a report on it. What streamers are you even talking about?? The only streamers are you and a handful of friends who are all sub 50 viewers you aren't bringing a big player base here...