The use of derogatory slurs in VOIP

[Clank]

1 minute ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

With current DM rules, someone screaming slurs isn't enough to sock them in the mouth as far as I can tell. 

• Deathmatching is the act of attacking a player without a proper IC motive and interaction. 

1. Motive: He's insulting you screaming derogatory words at you. Interaction: Berating you and chatting shit

• Players may not kill victims who have complied with a plausible demand in reasonable time unless involved in severe hostile activity against them or an ally within 3 hours.

2. Demands: Tell him to shut up or get checked up. If he fails to listen he is not complying with demands.

• Players must be able to explain their reason and provide proof of prior reasoning if requested.

3. Explanation: "He was insulting me and berating me. I told him to shut up and he didnt."

[skeletee]

28 minutes ago, ClankH said:

 

Yes, we are playing an 18+ game. Regardless of what age is playing the video game designed to be 18+, It is their responsibility to accept that. It is not up to the majority to provide a safe environment for people that are overly sensitive to comments or behaviors. So yes, hold people accountable. Hold them accountable for their OOC behavior not their IC behavior. 

I find a lot of things people do or say to be ignorant. The thing is, it is their choice to act like that and their choice to behave the way they do. Maybe they were not raised correctly, maybe they have some internal struggles going on. Regardless, at the end of the day. Its the internet as you said, the timeline is irrelevant, whether its 2021 or 2008. Its still a cesspool of races, gender, people, backgrounds.

I by no means consider myself sensitive or soft. Yet sometimes I'll stumble upon things that I find disgusting or offensive. If I'm exploring the internet and I see something that I dislike or disgusting then I click out. Simple as that. If people cant distinguish the fact they're playing a video game then we have issues. It's the same type of people that cannot distinguish someones IC character v. Their OOC character. (Which is another huge issue on its own).

 

Growing up playing xbox live throughout my youth and playing these same 18+ mature rated games. My parents were aware of what they were signing me up for when it came to buying me these games. I did too and honestly, words don't even affect me at this point.

We tailor things to the people with no backbone or spine, we tailor things to people that are soft and can't hold their own. Nobody is responsible for making someone else feel "comfortable". Yes we're a gaming community and yes we have OOC regulations on OOC behavior. Sure, rules are rules. 

If we're talking about /characters/ that people are playing. Yes CHARACTERS. Let them act like a dickhead if they want to ICly, they will suffer the IC repercussions that come with it. 

 

noob!

[KonaKealoha]

+1 I'll agree with this for the community and growth sake. While yes, it's a RPG and freedom of speech, yada yada yada... It's still a game that requires people to feel comfortable with logging on and playing. Especially streamers who purposefully avoid Eclipse because of rampant homophobia and racism here. Streamers are paramount in helping the community grow and if they all avoid it and go to other servers where there ARE rules in place regarding overuse of certain words then we're the ones that are losing out by having less people to play and interact with here... Soon we'll be left with only people who are okay with that language and it's just going to be a toxic server where it's just a bunch of kids running around calling people f*gg*ts and the n word. So in that respect it IS a slippery slope that should be reigned in a bit. 

[Alllbyyy]

57 minutes ago, ClankH said:

 

Yes, we are playing an 18+ game. Regardless of what age is playing the video game designed to be 18+, It is their responsibility to accept that. It is not up to the majority to provide a safe environment for people that are overly sensitive to comments or behaviors. So yes, hold people accountable. Hold them accountable for their OOC behavior not their IC behavior. 

I find a lot of things people do or say to be ignorant. The thing is, it is their choice to act like that and their choice to behave the way they do. Maybe they were not raised correctly, maybe they have some internal struggles going on. Regardless, at the end of the day. Its the internet as you said, the timeline is irrelevant, whether its 2021 or 2008. Its still a cesspool of races, gender, people, backgrounds.

I by no means consider myself sensitive or soft. Yet sometimes I'll stumble upon things that I find disgusting or offensive. If I'm exploring the internet and I see something that I dislike or disgusting then I click out. Simple as that. If people cant distinguish the fact they're playing a video game then we have issues. It's the same type of people that cannot distinguish someones IC character v. Their OOC character. (Which is another huge issue on its own).

 

Growing up playing xbox live throughout my youth and playing these same 18+ mature rated games. My parents were aware of what they were signing me up for when it came to buying me these games. I did too and honestly, words don't even affect me at this point.

We tailor things to the people with no backbone or spine, we tailor things to people that are soft and can't hold their own. Nobody is responsible for making someone else feel "comfortable". Yes we're a gaming community and yes we have OOC regulations on OOC behavior. Sure, rules are rules. 

If we're talking about /characters/ that people are playing. Yes CHARACTERS. Let them act like a dickhead if they want to ICly, they will suffer the IC repercussions that come with it. 

 

Thank you for saving my time.

[Dimja]

26 minutes ago, KonaKealoha said:

+1 I'll agree with this for the community and growth sake. While yes, it's a RPG and freedom of speech, yada yada yada... It's still a game that requires people to feel comfortable with logging on and playing. Especially streamers who purposefully avoid Eclipse because of rampant homophobia and racism here. Streamers are paramount in helping the community grow and if they all avoid it and go to other servers where there ARE rules in place regarding overuse of certain words then we're the ones that are losing out by having less people to play and interact with here... Soon we'll be left with only people who are okay with that language and it's just going to be a toxic server where it's just a bunch of kids running around calling people f*gg*ts and the n word. So in that respect it IS a slippery slope that should be reigned in a bit. 

‘Soon we’ll be left with only people who are okay with that language and it’s just going to be a toxic server where it’s just a bunch of kids.....

As of right now, thats not the case as you clearly state, so why would it suddenly change by not implementing a rule that did not exist in the first place. Why do you imply that not adding a rule, that has not been added in the past 4 or 5 years of Eclipse, will suddenly get all people to become those ‘kids who are okay with that language’ ?

[KonaKealoha]

Just now, Dimja said:

‘Soon we’ll be left with only people who are okay with that language and it’s just going to be a toxic server where it’s just a bunch of kids.....

As of right now, thats not the case as you clearly state, so why would it suddenly change by not implementing a rule that did not exist in the first place. Why do you imply that not adding a rule, that has not been added in the past 4 or 5 years of Eclipse, will suddenly get all people to become those ‘kids who are okay with that language’ ?

I know several people who do not play on Eclipse from when I first started, a couple of people who are twitch streamers, who left because of the rampant homophobia and racism that goes unchecked. It's not the words, it's the overuse of the words. So yes eventually people DO leave because of it. 

[Dimja]

Just now, KonaKealoha said:

I know several people who do not play on Eclipse from when I first started, a couple of people who are twitch streamers, who left because of the rampant homophobia and racism that goes unchecked. It's not the words, it's the overuse of the words. So yes eventually people DO leave because of it. 

People come and go. Simple lifecycle. People who cant stand it leave and people who believe (not saying I am one of those) that it helps portraying their character get attracted to it.

[risk]

+/- 1. While I understand the intention behind this post and see both sides of the coin when it comes to the argument, I don't believe the issue can be resolved by the simple matter of punishing players  who use certain "banned" words. 

Ultimately, this is an adult game with adult themes and everyone who joins ECRP should be explicitly aware of all that entails. There are going to be times when your character is placed in uncomfortable, volatile situations- particularly if your character has walked into the criminal life. 

And while there is a rule in place with the simple matter of going into /b, personally I would rather see more elaboration and room for handling those handful of players who antagonize just for the sake of antagonizing underneath the NRP or Ruleplaying rules. It's entirely feasible there are biased, aggressive, hostile people within Los Santos; however, it seems some choose to take that and roll with it under the guide of "being in character" when in reality all they're doing is hoping to bait someone into some type of fight or get some type of reaction from people knowing the repercussions will be limited within the rules as they stand. 

If you're going to run around calling people f******, n******, t*******, etc. everywhere you go regardless of location, situation, or people involved you're just being edgy for the sake of being edgy and adding nothing to the RP environment in my opinion. 

[KonaKealoha]

Just now, Dimja said:

People come and go. Simple lifecycle. People who cant stand it leave and people who believe (not saying I am one of those) that it helps portraying their character get attracted to it.

I'm just here to say I agree with the OP's idea... If someone TRULY believes that repeating the word "f*ggot" is important to their role play experience than there's no way to reason with that. 

[Dimja]

1 minute ago, Jacqueline Drakk said:

+/- 1. While I understand the intention behind this post and see both sides of the coin when it comes to the argument, I don't believe the issue can be resolved by the simple matter of punishing players  who use certain "banned" words. 

Ultimately, this is an adult game with adult themes and everyone who joins ECRP should be explicitly aware of all that entails. There are going to be times when your character is placed in uncomfortable, volatile situations- particularly if your character has walked into the criminal life. 

And while there is a rule in place with the simple matter of going into /b, personally I would rather see more elaboration and room for handling those handful of players who antagonize just for the sake of antagonizing underneath the NRP or Ruleplaying rules. It's entirely feasible there are biased, aggressive, hostile people within Los Santos; however, it seems some choose to take that and roll with it under the guide of "being in character" when in reality all they're doing is hoping to bait someone into some type of fight or get some type of reaction from people knowing the repercussions will be limited within the rules as they stand. 

If you're going to run around calling people f******, n******, t*******, etc. everywhere you go regardless of location, situation, or people involved you're just being edgy for the sake of being edgy and adding nothing to the RP environment in my opinion. 

Wiser words have not been spoken.

[Dimja]

Just now, KonaKealoha said:

I'm just here to say I agree with the OP's idea... If someone TRULY believes that repeating the word "f*ggot" is important to their role play experience than there's no way to reason with that. 

I hope there are only a handful of people who need slurs for their roleplay experience, but I do believe that we should not censor the fuck out of the speech of people.

[dawpi]

2 hours ago, ClankH said:

 

Yes, we are playing an 18+ game. Regardless of what age is playing the video game designed to be 18+, It is their responsibility to accept that. It is not up to the majority to provide a safe environment for people that are overly sensitive to comments or behaviors. So yes, hold people accountable. Hold them accountable for their OOC behavior not their IC behavior. 

I find a lot of things people do or say to be ignorant. The thing is, it is their choice to act like that and their choice to behave the way they do. Maybe they were not raised correctly, maybe they have some internal struggles going on. Regardless, at the end of the day. Its the internet as you said, the timeline is irrelevant, whether its 2021 or 2008. Its still a cesspool of races, gender, people, backgrounds.

I by no means consider myself sensitive or soft. Yet sometimes I'll stumble upon things that I find disgusting or offensive. If I'm exploring the internet and I see something that I dislike or disgusting then I click out. Simple as that. If people cant distinguish the fact they're playing a video game then we have issues. It's the same type of people that cannot distinguish someones IC character v. Their OOC character. (Which is another huge issue on its own).

 

Growing up playing xbox live throughout my youth and playing these same 18+ mature rated games. My parents were aware of what they were signing me up for when it came to buying me these games. I did too and honestly, words don't even affect me at this point.

We tailor things to the people with no backbone or spine, we tailor things to people that are soft and can't hold their own. Nobody is responsible for making someone else feel "comfortable". Yes we're a gaming community and yes we have OOC regulations on OOC behavior. Sure, rules are rules. 

If we're talking about /characters/ that people are playing. Yes CHARACTERS. Let them act like a dickhead if they want to ICly, they will suffer the IC repercussions that come with it. 

 

Never thought I'd find myself agreeing with this, but it's probably the best comment here by far. You deserved a like from me! 

[Hayate]

On 10/11/2021 at 7:01 PM, Bala said:

The topic of this discussion is.. is it time for us as a community to disallow the use of certain derogatory slurs to be used in VOIP?

Personally, this topic has been raised a few times before and to be honest, I was opposed to making it a rule because I'm not fond of limiting roleplay and my honest opinion was and to a degree still is, that certain words or phrases could still be used, responsibly by the person OOC playing the character, to add realism and an extra dimension to roleplay situations. My personal background means that I'm as far away from being any kind of discriminated against minority as you can get. So, i've never been on the end of any real discrimination in my personal life. I don't know what it's like to be on the other end of that insult and I'm not going to pretend I haven't said some of these things in ignorance, because I have. 

That being said, I got into a situation last night when a couple of people were screaming the word "f****t" at each other in close proximity in a situation that I couldn't just remove myself from. It wasn't going to trigger me on a personal level, but it was actually really jarring. For someone that that kind of slur would personally attack, it must be horrendous to be on the other end of that. I'm not a criminal for example, so the insults over VOIP aren't usually based on sexual orientation or race, I don't get exposed to it that much, but having had a chat with some of the community members that are part of the LGBT+ community or different races, that it does happen and it does happen more on the criminal side of things.

Like a number of others, I stream Eclipse on Twitch and people using racist or homophobic slurs over VOIP could potentially compromise my ability to do so. I spoke to a couple other streamers that play here, that don't stream here because of that potential. That's pretty sad.

Ultimately, I'm not trying to push any kind of woke agenda here. The reality is though, use of some of these slurs is going to have an out-of-character impact on people and I think it goes beyond that person being a "snowflake" or this being "the internet". I don't trust some of our player-base to be able to use these slurs in a responsible way, to further roleplay so I do think that we should look at banning their use. All our players have the right to play hate-free but also, all our players have the right to their own personal beliefs, so I'm not trying to change people's outlooks.

I just think it would be in the best interests of the harmony of community in Eclipse if we didn't use those kind of slurs at any point anymore. Set out clearly what is and is not acceptable, remove people that don't live by them rules. Surely, we can all roleplay without it?

i feel like that as part of the LGBT community and as someone who has been called the F slur IRL for example, i feel like it would be a welcome gesture to limit or remove these kinds of words alltogether. 
Such a thing makes roleplay situations very awkward for me, because i either have the option of ignoring it, and letting it eat into myself, calling it out OOC and breaking the flow of the roleplay (no matter if its a positive or negative response to my request) or calling it out IC and making a whole conflict between characters that i dont think would fit the character i would like to portray. 

[Hayate]

10 minutes ago, Jeff Bozo said:

its still iterally just a word, if u chose to have it mean meaning to you then thats on your own. limiting stuff like this will not be good, yes ik i agree with the ooc thing but banning it straight up will just waste admins time on useless reports

i have to disagree with that.
the word doesnt gain meaning by the way how i see it. It always had a meaning. and that meaning is to be a discriminatory word against - in this case - homosexuals, and by association people of different sexualities than gay. 
The way people have used this word at me isnt in a way that was open to interpretation.

i feel it isnt the point of a community to have to figure out if a word is supposed to be meant as a derogatory term, as a general curse, or whatever other way it could be meant. Because the thing is, while someone who isnt LGBT can interpret that word as something harmless, (heck, even some LGBT people dont take it serious) it can be taken very badly by someone else. And that can just be avoided by just not using that type of language.

[Bala]

6 hours ago, ClankH said:

Yes, we are playing an 18+ game. Regardless of what age is playing the video game designed to be 18+, It is their responsibility to accept that. It is not up to the majority to provide a safe environment for people that are overly sensitive to comments or behaviors. So yes, hold people accountable. Hold them accountable for their OOC behavior not their IC behavior. 

That's not really how it is works, the content of GTA V means that it's deemed by the ratings boards as inappropriate for people not of that age. There is no responsibility to accept, they're not supposed to be playing it but no one is going to enforce minors playing video games and we're not going to enforce an age limit on people playing here. 

The game content itself is not the issue, the content of single-player is irrelevant to this conversation as the world and people with in it are populated by us. The voices we hear, are voices of real humans in real time. The words that are read are written by real humans in real time.

Reacting to being called a n***** or a f***** isn't soft in my book. If you were to get touchy over being called a cocksucker or a son of a bitch, then I'd agree with you. 

6 hours ago, ClankH said:

I find a lot of things people do or say to be ignorant. The thing is, it is their choice to act like that and their choice to behave the way they do. Maybe they were not raised correctly, maybe they have some internal struggles going on. Regardless, at the end of the day. Its the internet as you said, the timeline is irrelevant, whether its 2021 or 2008. Its still a cesspool of races, gender, people, backgrounds.

I by no means consider myself sensitive or soft. Yet sometimes I'll stumble upon things that I find disgusting or offensive. If I'm exploring the internet and I see something that I dislike or disgusting then I click out. Simple as that. If people cant distinguish the fact they're playing a video game then we have issues. It's the same type of people that cannot distinguish someones IC character v. Their OOC character. (Which is another huge issue on its own).

The background of the person saying these kind of things, is not important. If you are not in a position where you cannot be held accountable for your actions, you got no business being here. Everyone is accountable. It doesn't matter about their upbringing or their internal struggles because them using derogatory slurs doesn't negatively impact them, it impacts others.

You talk about seeing offensive things on the internet and you clicking out, but that's you seeing those things. You are going to wherever you are going and see those things. If you are seeing them on ECRP then that's one thing, but if you're on reddit or whatever site you are on, then it's an issue for that site or community. It's simple for you, because you are still in control of those things. You may never go back to that site but it's not relevant to ECRP.

If we're roleplaying on ECRP and you racially abuse me, you (Clank) are still saying it to me and I (Bala) still hearing you say it, regardless of whether it's to my character or not. Vocalising these slurs adds a extra tangible level of reality to it and to some people, it's to a point where they don't feel comfortable playing here anymore and putting themselves in a position where it goes on.

If I'm in that position and we're roleplaying then who does that hurt? It hurts me, on a personal level and I don't want to play here anymore and it hurts the server because it's one less person playing in the community. It doesn't hurt you, so it wouldn't be your problem.

6 hours ago, ClankH said:

Growing up playing xbox live throughout my youth and playing these same 18+ mature rated games. My parents were aware of what they were signing me up for when it came to buying me these games. I did too and honestly, words don't even affect me at this point.

We tailor things to the people with no backbone or spine, we tailor things to people that are soft and can't hold their own. Nobody is responsible for making someone else feel "comfortable". Yes we're a gaming community and yes we have OOC regulations on OOC behavior. Sure, rules are rules. 

If we're talking about /characters/ that people are playing. Yes CHARACTERS. Let them act like a dickhead if they want to ICly, they will suffer the IC repercussions that come with it. 

I'm glad that words don't effect you at this point in your life. I said this to someone else, but this isn't about you as an individual. It's about creating and maintaining an environment that appeals to as many people as possible. Those lobbies are incredibly toxic, especially to female, LGBTQ+ and ethnic minorities.

These slurs don't effect me on a personal level, but that isn't the point, I'm going so hard after this for those people that don't feel comfortable using their microphones or have to put up with the same shit they have to put up with in their personal lives. Rightly or wrongly, I feel like I have a little platform in ECRP and it just feels right at this point to use that to try and push for whatever change for those of us who get the rough end of behaviour like this. But also, to try and make up for my own failings in these areas.

[Hayate]

4 minutes ago, Jeff Bozo said:

The thing is, even GTA 5 was not met to be all sun shine and rainbow. if people are really that offended over a word i think they should find a diffrent game, the game they bought comes with stuff like that. you cant expect people to support banning stuff fully just because someone is a snowflake

 

the snowflake argument just isnt an argument that makes one sound credible. 

this isnt about how someone is sitting at a game interacting with little computer pixel people. this is, by proxy, human to human interaction. Without meaning disrespect, as im sure that you didnt mean it disrespectful either,  but just saying "its an 18+ game" or "GTAV also uses these slurs" is kind of hiding behind the issue at hand. 
its an interaction with other people just like you and me, just with a game inbetween. and (again without implying you mean it that way) i think the least one can do is have the respect towards another individual youre sitting on the other side of virtually. 
this isnt just a thing of a few snowflakes. a significant amount of people can be targeted by the usual slurs, no matter if they get hurt by them or not, and for people getting their first impression through streams or first interactions on the server, this just doesnt show a picture fo a welcome community.

[Destuin]

7 hours ago, Bala said:

Reacting to being called a n***** or a f***** isn't soft in my book. If you were to get touchy over being called a cocksucker or a son of a bitch, then I'd agree with you. 

So calling someone that is homosexual a f***** would be inappropriate. But calling that same person a cocksucker would be okay in your book? Both of these are derogatory slurs. Why have you decided to draw the line there? Calling someone a cocksucker is just as homophobic as any other slur... Here comes the major issue with the suggestion, are we only supposed to pick the slurs that you decide are too bad?

[AtlasOLimbo]

1 hour ago, Destuin said:

So calling someone that is homosexual a f***** would be inappropriate. But calling that same person a cocksucker would be okay in your book? Both of these are derogatory slurs. Why have you decided to draw the line there? Calling someone a cocksucker is just as homophobic as any other slur... Here comes the major issue with the suggestion, are we only supposed to pick the slurs that you decide are too bad?

Wrong. Try again.

EDIT: No one is trying to ban every profanity under the sun. Trying to stop the use of very clearly derogatory slurs, which comes I can count on less than my ten fingers, isn't an issue. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by AtlasOLimbo

[ArcAngel]

I agree with clank in this.

Like I'd stated earlier, we have rules regarding toxicity. We have the option to ask them to stop.

I personally grew up in an environment where it was a mild insult to say f****t or r****d or even don't be g*y. 

They were MILD insults when I was young, now that the world has change and I experience people from all walks of life, I catch myself saying these words harmlessly out of habit and finding I have offended people.

As an adult I apologise and try to be conscious of what i say and around whom I say it.

Most people who know me know my intentions when I talk too.

 

Perhaps the solution to this is more serious retribution for those who breach toxicity when they are asked to stop and continue.

 

We are playing characters here, we try to advise those who play, not to take anything that happens IC personally and I realise that sometimes those barriers blur a little, it's up to us as community members to communicate that we have been upset on an OOC level and work on the resolve.

 

Censoring is not the way to go, monitoring is.

[Bala]

2 hours ago, Destuin said:

So calling someone that is homosexual a f***** would be inappropriate. But calling that same person a cocksucker would be okay in your book? Both of these are derogatory slurs. Why have you decided to draw the line there? Calling someone a cocksucker is just as homophobic as any other slur... Here comes the major issue with the suggestion, are we only supposed to pick the slurs that you decide are too bad?

While it's a insult, it's not specific to homosexuality. The proposed banned slurs, to me,  would be ones that single out a specific group of people.

[Tommy Kane]

-1  Everything said over VOIP or ((Typing)) is IC only. The rules of the sever are to not mix IC & OOC via VOIP. Let's not make an exception because people MIGHT be offended. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me as the saying goes!

[Ultra3D]

4 hours ago, Bala said:

While it's a insult, it's not specific to homosexuality. The proposed banned slurs, to me,  would be ones that single out a specific group of people.

Big -1 to that. This basically mean any "Group" that gets offended just adds another word that things cant say. When it comes to the nword and the other "Homophobic" words its what ever but now there are new "groups" every day that feel they are targeted and feel "oppressed" so I feel it could become very problematic

Edited October 20, 2021 by Ultra3D

[Hayate]

i find it very weird that people get so incredibly defensive over their "right" to make their character call other people slurs. 

i really want someone to make a clear argument why one should keep the specific broad slurs even though it shows the community as unwelcoming for LGBT people, it conflicts with Twitch TOS thus making it difficult for streamers which would help opening the community as well; 

while not falling into going to hypotheticals about "when they ban these words what will be next" or calling people snowflakes.

[Ultra3D]

16 minutes ago, Hayate said:

i find it very weird that people get so incredibly defensive over their "right" to make their character call other people slurs. 

i really want someone to make a clear argument why one should keep the specific broad slurs even though it shows the community as unwelcoming for LGBT people, it conflicts with Twitch TOS thus making it difficult for streamers which would help opening the community as well; 

while not falling into going to hypotheticals about "when they ban these words what will be next" or calling people snowflakes.

Simple, The % of people actually using these words in the way you claim are single digit% of the servers population. Words are words and there is already a rule about abusing the right to say them. Was that clear enough?

Edited October 21, 2021 by Ultra3D

[Hayate]

14 minutes ago, Ultra3D said:

Simple, The % of people actually using these words in the way you claim are single digit% of the servers population. Words are words and there is already a rule about abusing the right to say them. Was that clear enough?

the problem is that this rule clearly doesnt work. if the word was so underused like you are claiming, we wouldnt have this thread. 

ive not been here for a long time, yet the amount of times i have heard the use of slurs is unbeaten by any other server or game (with maybe the exception of rust). Also, this doesnt fix the problem of that word tainting the reputation of this server when you could just not say the word.

"words are words" is something usually said by someone clearly not targeted by these words and/or without a past of being a target of harrassment.