5-man rule

[Prozacel]

I would say that this is something trending nowadays.

Criminal activities are limited to 5 players max at a time. People who act as a spotter on the radio or anyone providing communication count as part of your group.
- You can not bring back an active situation to your turf where you might find your friends/gang of 15 members waiting there
- When a group of 5 engages on a group of 5+, you are knowingly engaging a bigger group and they do NOT have to drop numbers to defend themselves.

Why 5? Because I am thinking maybe you want to pack a car with 4 persons and you have a spotter on a bike ? I guess is a pretty decent number covering all the CRIM scenarios (labs, chopshops, robbing stores, robbing other individuals).

* Bank robberies are not falling under this rule because for that you need more people , but in rest I don`t see why you need more.
* WOULD BE NICE if PD/SD can limit also their resources to this number and not have all of their members deployed anymore for a small scene

- Shootouts will not involve 20 members each side, would be more clean.
- PD/SD/MD resources will not be used anymore at full capacity for only one scene.
- Conflicts between gangs can be sustained this way and will not be NLR'ed every time.
 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Prozacel

[Illmohim]

PD will literally come in and obliterate crims.

[Prozacel]

6 minutes ago, Illmohim said:

PD will literally come in and obliterate crims.

Yes, this is a valid point. It would be nice if PD/SD factions will be limited to this number. I would add it in the suggestion. Thanks for the feedback !

Also criminals need to play smarter to succeed

Edited January 29, 2021 by Prozacel

[CaesarSeizure]

-1 I think there is no need for that, as current faction rules aim towards reduced scenes already, but still allows large gang activity. PD/SD will always respond in overwhelming force, especially when its a high danger situation. And it will likely lead to either more reports from people looking to report anything.

This is not a TDM server or rust to create these kind of limits, bigger gangs should be able to make use of their bigger numbers. While LEOs will always try to overwhelm in response, as the last few months have shown - that low numbers just invite shootings. Overall it doesn't make sense to be rule restricted from helping your own gang.

[Andy Mason]

-1 crim rp is already dying , if this is implemented its dead like 6 feet under the ground dead , there is no point adding this , although it is appealing as it will end many conflicts easily and will not end up with alot of drama and forum reports but still in my opinion it should stay the way it is.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Andy Mason

[Ne0n1c]

-1 this will add the final nail in the coffin for crim rp

[JakeInnit_]

no.

[Speed Racer]

+1

This rule works incredibly well on other very popular RP servers, namely because a response limit also applies to LEOs at the same time. Large-scale gangs still operate on them, it cuts down on advantages brought on by time-zone differences, and PD still have a a perfectly good chance of catching crims due to being allowed slightly more numbers than crims.

-1

PD have dumped a lot of resources into organizing massive response units over the past year that would likely be deemed against the rules with this, which would lead to a lot of rightfully upset people in those factions.

tldr, great rule on other servers, not sure if we're ready to make that jump on this server yet. I think the recent ban on joint freqs is a step in this direction though. Maybe wait a bit longer and see how that rule changes things long-term and then bring this conversation back up if it's not enough?

[apologisemeow]

No way, while the most recent rules does help the smaller gangs like Russian Mafia, FSO and Sinaloa Cartel and many others trying to make their way in the city while also stopping cops being obliterated by 70+ gang members sharing joint freq. 

 

This suggestion would just kill criminal organizations as whole and create more clap squads who have have no interest in rping and you'd also see massive spike in reports, constantly being questions is to who youre with and so on no thanks. 

[Speed Racer]

1 minute ago, apologisemeow said:

No way, while the most recent rules does help the smaller gangs like Russian Mafia, FSO and Sinaloa Cartel and many others trying to make their way in the city while also stopping cops being obliterated by 70+ gang members sharing joint freq. 

 

This suggestion would just kill criminal organizations as whole and create more clap squads who have have no interest in rping and you'd also see massive spike in reports, constantly being questions is to who youre with and so on no thanks. 

No, this rule is not saying that large gangs would have to disband, it's just saying you can't bring the whole squad out to a lab to hold it down. The overall gang still exists, but each criminal operation would be limited to 5 at a time.

[apologisemeow]

4 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

No, this rule is not saying that large gangs would have to disband, it's just saying you can't bring the whole squad out to a lab to hold it down. The overall gang still exists, but each criminal operation would be limited to 5 at a time.

I get that but a lab can also be a place your gang or gangs can get together socialise and make supplies for turfs now more than ever with the most recent rules added.

[Swittzy]

-1. I would rather not have more rules limiting roleplay. 

[FrankieP]

1 hour ago, Solomun said:

unless you can provide a framework as to why it should be five then you've just picked an arbitrary number - why 5? why not 6, why not 10, why not 2?

Did you read the suggestion?

He says 'Why 5? Because I am thinking maybe you want to pack a car with 4 persons and you have a spotter on a bike ? I guess is a pretty decent number covering all the CRIM scenarios (labs, chopshops, robbing stores, robbing other individuals)'.

[Borrelli]

If criminals had this rule, PD would do the same. Currently if we pursue known gang members we have to bring all our units as these situations typically end in an ambush with 20+ gang members. You can see what I'm talking about here: https://streamable.com/pg6zan At most they were being pursued by 8 Officers total. (Just to clarify, I am not saying that the ambush is a rulebreak or anything, I am simply pointing out that at this time PD using 'excessive units' cannot be helped, with a limitation on the number of gang members involved in a situation, we can limit the number of PD members involved.)

I'm not sold on the number, however what I do feel needs to be done is some sort of limitation on both sides, I too agree it's rediculous to have 5+ police cruisers in a pursuit line playing snake through-out the city, however due to my above point at times this cannot be avoided currently.

Maybe an initial test for such a suggestion could be a limitation placed on how many people can rob a bank and how many PD units can respond to a bank robbery call?

Edited January 29, 2021 by Borrelli

[Prozacel]

3 hours ago, Solomun said:

unless you can provide a framework as to why it should be five then you've just picked an arbitrary number - why 5? why not 6, why not 10, why not 2?

I chose 5 because:

1. Big shootouts are not wanted anymore. So we can not speak about a 10 vs 10 anymore. Also I took in consideration that PD/SD might get involved. So I was thinking that 5 is a fair number for all the parties: The ones that are engaging, defenders and also PD/SD. 
2. I picked 5 and not 4,3,2 because I am thinking also about the social side. Maybe you want to have some fun with your friends, you all get in a single car and drive around. So I was thinking about a 4 seater and not to just go blindly in a lab maybe you want somebody to scout. So there you have a total number of 5.

Reading the comments I see that people are afraid this will kill the Crim life. 

I am not suggesting gangs to be limited to 5 members. I am speaking about criminal activities only.

The truth is that now, what is happening, is that everyone is chilling, you send a guy to scout with a bike and if he finds someone at a lab, he will call it on the radio, then everybody is grouping up and you will have 30 people rolling somewhere and that`s it. You will have a big NLR and nobody can`t do anything else for hours after. If you limit this behavior I believe it will encourage people to do more different criminal activities. First of all because you just can not wait for the backup call anymore because other 10 are doing the same and this will be limited. Also, other small gangs will have a chance to rise not being afraid of big numbers, so in fact Criminals will find more action on the field.

This doesn`t mean is a nerf for the big gangs, because they still own their turfs and there is no number limitation in those areas. Also a big gang, because has numbers, can do more criminal activities in the same time.

No matter what, this is just a suggestion and even if the majority of the feedback is bad, the outcome is still positive because this shows what community wants and this is what it counts.
 

[Prozacel]

5 hours ago, apologisemeow said:

I get that but a lab can also be a place your gang or gangs can get together socialise and make supplies for turfs now more than ever with the most recent rules added.

I can say that understand this and you are right regarding the socializing side. The problem is that now, gangs don`t have an identity anymore. A HQ. There should be the socialization done. You stay at your turf with the gang, all the people know where they can find you to buy guns/ sell drugs/ chop cars. You have an identity. Like in the past Zetas (with Z-store)/Triads (with their HQ)/Aztecas (with the Church). You always knew where to find them. Now, everything is desert. 

[Kento]

-1 like someone said before it would nail down the coffin on crim rp 

 

[tylxrrr]

+1/-1

This suggestion sounds pretty good. It would be nice to have lower-scale conflicts/activities as it would help with lag and the health of the server. However, I think the joint frequency rule is doing a nice job right now with this.  I feel like this suggestion would feel too restricting for people who roleplay criminals. But, who knows maybe this would not be too bad. I think it is hard to judge it until it is put into effect. I am in the middle with this one.

EDIT:

It would also help with PD/SD/MD resources. It is frustrating enough that civilians have to wait long for PD/SD/MD to respond to their calls because their resources are tied up with large-scale conflicts. Maybe I am leaning a bit more to the +1 side. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by tylxrrr
Added Info

[FrankieP]

39 minutes ago, Prozacel said:

I chose 5 because:

1. Big shootouts are not wanted anymore. So we can not speak about a 10 vs 10 anymore. Also I took in consideration that PD/SD might get involved. So I was thinking that 5 is a fair number for all the parties: The ones that are engaging, defenders and also PD/SD. 
2. I picked 5 and not 4,3,2 because I am thinking also about the social side. Maybe you want to have some fun with your friends, you all get in a single car and drive around. So I was thinking about a 4 seater and not to just go blindly in a lab maybe you want somebody to scout. So there you have a total number of 5.

Reading the comments I see that people are afraid this will kill the Crim life. 

I am not suggesting gangs to be limited to 5 members. I am speaking about criminal activities only.

The truth is that now, what is happening, is that everyone is chilling, you send a guy to scout with a bike and if he finds someone at a lab, he will call it on the radio, then everybody is grouping up and you will have 30 people rolling somewhere and that`s it. You will have a big NLR and nobody can`t do anything else for hours after. If you limit this behavior I believe it will encourage people to do more different criminal activities. First of all because you just can not wait for the backup call anymore because other 10 are doing the same and this will be limited. Also, other small gangs will have a chance to rise not being afraid of big numbers, so in fact Criminals will find more action on the field.

This doesn`t mean is a nerf for the big gangs, because they still own their turfs and there is no number limitation in those areas. Also a big gang, because has numbers, can do more criminal activities in the same time.

No matter what, this is just a suggestion and even if the majority of the feedback is bad, the outcome is still positive because this shows what community wants and this is what it counts.
 

Building on this, perhaps the rule could allow leniency if, for example, a group of people are piled up in a 6 seater like a Guardian or Roosevelt? Basing the rule around vehicles might make more sense rather than being a rigid '5 people' rule.

[NeverMind]

-1

 

I think with proper enforcement of the joint frequency rule and putting an emphasis on proper gang RP, there is no need to add another OOC limitation to criminal RP that will just lead to an increase in petty reports and forum wars. If you're in a gang with 10 buddies and all 10 of you want to hold down a chop shop or lab, I don't see why there should be an OOC rule against it. I understand that large gang conflicts take up ES but with the new rules and encouraging more realistic gang rp where you dont have multiple allied gangs fighting in the same shootout, I think this will also go down. Personally, I've found that MD answers a lot quicker since that rule has been implemented. 

 

Also in the "it will encourage people to do more different criminal activities", real gangs usually have types of criminal activity that they're into. Robbing stores / banks, making/selling drugs, chopping cars, but very few do all of them and so imo gangs should really try to focus their rp on criminal activities that match their lore. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by NeverMind

[MrDisciple]

-1 to this idea. Huge number conflicts have already gone out the window with the new join freq rules. This suggestion will bring a lot of OOC conflict, loads of reports and just unnecessary OOC tension and rule play between criminals. In real life situations from what I've seen, PD can swarm in with huge amounts of units on a single scene. They may not need this many but the situation could escalate to needing this and sending out PD in small numbers makes them vulnerable.

On 1/29/2021 at 6:26 PM, Prozacel said:

You will have a big NLR and nobody can`t do anything else for hours after.

NLR doesn't last hours and it doesn't prevent you from doing a different type of criminal activity. If you died in a lab you can still go to another lab, chopshop rob a store or bank. You can go back to HQ and have a party or some RP activities. You shouldn't need to set you timer on 30min and wait at MD.

 

On 1/29/2021 at 6:26 PM, Prozacel said:

small gangs will have a chance to rise not being afraid of big numbers, so in fact Criminals will find more action on the field.

In the real life world, small gangs have a disadvantage. They should expect conflict if they go into someones lab and they should realistically stay low instead of 1week in thinking they should have the same chance as a faction that's been going for over a year, like Rooks. If there is a max 5, criminals will most definitely not find "more action on the field". Lets say there are 5 gangs all with 20 members online. You do the math and that's 100 criminals and only being able to go around in groups of 5 thats 20 groups attempting to do a criminal activity, do you know how many labs there are? You may as well have 20 gangs instead of 5. It would divide gangs and deprive the rest of members to joining in with the prime group of 5 that can RP. Factions have to stick to their lores and that limits them heavily in where they can go and so splitting the faction up into groups of 5 will mean only maybe 1 or 2 of those groups can actually get involved in crim RP and the rest will have to... what fish?

 

On 1/29/2021 at 6:52 PM, tylxrrr said:

It would also help with PD/SD/MD resources. It is frustrating enough that civilians have to wait long for PD/SD/MD to respond to their calls because their resources are tied up with large-scale conflicts. Maybe I am leaning a bit more to the +1 side. 

With MD, there are sometimes dead zones of no calls for maybe 30-60min and when one comes additional units may arrive on scene for scene management. There will never be an extra unit on a scene with 1 or 2 patients if a call comes in and isn't answered. Scenes with 3+ require more as ambulances take 2 players max. In busy times calls can surprisingly come in every minuet and there can be 10min waits on patients due to lack of units and not because there are more than one on a scene. With PD/SD you think they should limit their units on "Large scale conflicts" such as shootouts, officers getting shot or kidnapped and go to calls of someones car being pick locked outside weazel news?

[Percival]

-1 to limiting roleplay, whats the point of having a large playerbase when you can only do crim stuff with a max of 5 ppl?? For all i care crims can have a whole army. Wont look good but dam its their group and roleplay.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Percival

[Maccy]

+1, Specifically for the limit to responding units to crime

I had a situation yesterday where myself and an IC friend were chopping a car, a PD officer had called it in and 6 units pulled up amassing to around 10 officers. For 2 criminals who in the end weren't even charged due to lack of any evidence.
As stated by Dunbar this is in no way the fault of PD or SD. It is simply a reactionary result of large scale criminal activity as you can never be sure if one criminal might turn into 15+. A limit to the amount of criminals doing a criminal activity together and in turn a limit to the responding units to said activity I feel would provide a wholly more balanced playing field for criminals.

As Prozacel says, this will not limit gang sizes or any kind of RP outside of criminal activity. You would only need to limit yourselves when you plan to do something. Lost MC can still have all of their members hanging in stab city, Irish can still have all their members on steamboat opening night and the socializing between activities would not be limited. A gang can still roll full force to the pier if they plan on fishing with the homies for a while. And if a group of 5 criminals wanted to roll up to the pier to start a beef with said gang, the defending gang would not have to disperse and could defend in full force. If they wished to retaliate they would then split into 4 or 5 man groups.

The only downside to this would be the lack of bigger scenes to take part in, but that's something we as a server are trying to move away from in the first place. It would greatly benefit smaller groups and gangs of criminals and encourage people to stop waiting on RP to come to them in the form of backup calls and go out there and create it with others.

[krooks365]

2 hours ago, Percival said:

whats the point of having a large playerbase when you can only do crim stuff with a max of 5 ppl??

A majority of servers with large player bases have similar rules and they are doing fine.