The Worsening State of Criminal RP

[givejoshamosin]

Hello,

I thought I'd make a post about the state of criminal RP... PD and Admins you don't need to hold your breathe this isn't about you. After taking a short break from criminal RP, I have came back to see not much has changed, the same stuff is happening day in and day out, I'll break this down into some sub topics, feel free to discuss them if you wish.

1. Joint Frequencies 

These quite simply need to stop. I'm guilty of being on them too at times, there is not much fun then the rush of pushing a lab with 30+ people on a frequency to fight another group you know is equally as big, but this makes no sense at all RPly. After talking to a member of FM the other day, he made an extremely valid point, what kind of organisation would expose their frequency and all the information on it to other organisations who are technically competitors to them. Now as I said before, I am guilty of this, however it should stop. I have been on the receiving end of a massive joint freq for months, getting chased all day everyday. I have also been on the winning side of a massive joint freq for months. This is extremely limiting our experiences on the server, and probably quite daunting for the newer people to the community who want to start their own organisations. Quite frankly, joint frequencies are keeping gang development from growing, both internally and externally. This is where I could get some hate, a lot of gangs won't survive without joint freqs, this is good because people may become more wary of their actions ICly and work on inter gang relationships, instead of feeling so powerful, because depending on the time zone one of the massive joint freqs might have more numbers than the other. 

I'm in one of the currently smallest "gangs" on the server, and I'm surprised it's me saying this first as a lot of the gangs (rivals and allies) would be able to smoke my crew (crew vs crew) if they wanted too. However, the server is becoming quite frankly dull and boring, and it pains me to see "crims" and I use that word lightly, complaining in Eclipse general chat about the state of crim RP, when they aren't taking any steps to fix it at all. 

As much as I enjoy playing with a large group of people and also my friends for half a year, I feel like Joint Freq's of this scale are negatively effecting our time on the server.

2. OOC Toxicity

Again, I have been apart of this too, however recently I have tried to step away from it. I get the importance of reporting rule breaks, but it seems that people are looking for the most minute thing an enemy can do and are reporting them for it when it could be resolved so easily by just speaking, a lot of people from each side of this so called "war" are actually decent people and make mistakes. I have seen petty reports from both sides and quite frankly it's disappointing that this is still happening 6 months down the line. It's our job to represent the criminal community, working together to bring up our concerns to staff in the correct way, will help improve the server and crim rp as a whole.

3. Alliances 

This is maybe where the staff team can help, Alliances, whilst happen in real life, do not make sense when it comes to Eclipse RP. The way they are currently conducted is multiple gangs come together to make one gang, effectively just making one large gang. Now I don't want OOC rules to limit RP, because that is terrible for the growth and exploration, however I feel like the guidelines need to be enforced. When criminal organisations ally it should be limited, personally I think allies should be neutral with each other, and occasionally come together to get tasks done that they both mutually want done. For example; NLA need help with their turfs, and Goblins want to order from NLA, so they team up to chop cars or rob stores together. 

When it comes to structuring alliances I haven't thought about what could be done to make it smooth and wouldn't end up in just another shitty rule that everyone get's reported for, however maybe in the future this could be discussed between staff and high command of criminal groups to come to a mutual agreement.

 

Was hesitant on posting this as I know some people could get pissed off, however I feel like it needs to be said. I'll be giving Criminal RP a shot, however the way it's going if we can't fix outside of it there is no point complaining about criminal roleplay at all.

 

 

TLDR; Change before we get rules in place that force us and limit us to those guidelines 

Edited January 5, 2021 by givejoshamosin

[kris giggs]

The issue to begin with is the way gangs are portrayed, period. Every single gang/illegal faction on the server sets to establish dominance at any cost, either alone or with the help of someone in a similar position. The reason criminal organizations and gangs exist is to increase profit for everyone within them, not to constantly fight and expose themselves, risk assets and law enforcement involvement. But people get to the point where they have 'enough money' so the only thing left is to have fun, and the fun in this case are large scale fights, joint frequencies, alliances which essentially lead to your second point, toxicity. Gangs are not supposed to be democratic and give everyone a fair chance, you want to make money and establish power? That comes at a cost. I do not have to point out the amount of threads that have been posted over the last 6 months regarding the state of criminal roleplay, this has to stop, I understand, you want to get it off your chest, but this is not the way. Faction management has to be more engaging with their work because when people get imports and whatever they set out to get they go ballistic. As bias as I may sound to all the criminals out there, cops and admins are not the issue, you are. Is this what criminals really do in real life? Drive around in 5 million dollar sports cars over mountains and clap one another because they have nothing else to do, the answer is no by the way. All the fighting, losing and winning on both sides disallows the two parties to even speak to each other and resolve basic issues because the game is taken too seriously on an OOC level, resorting to forum complaints to get people banned. It is very simple, a bad tree has grown, you can cut the branches down but they will grow out again, out of that same tree, the same bad root. Look at the cause, not the outcome itself.

[alexalex303]

Alliances negatively affected criminal RP more than any nerf to importing weapons and whatnot.

Realism/NonRP

I feel that if gang A wants to be friendly towards gang B it can exert a good amount of soft power. Ex. Provide them with cheaper prices for guns, provide large weapon shipments while refusing to stock the other side, help with propaganda, etc.

However, the current state of affairs where gang A and gang B hop on a joint frequency and look for the "enemy" to shoot together does not bring any good RP, does not make any sense and it should be stopped. It completely dilutes faction identities and honestly, in recent conflicts, it is very hard to tell where faction A begins and faction B ends, when they are always together, in the same vehicles hunting.

No gang would literally take to the streets with an enemy gang in order to directly fight a third enemy gang. You notice how I'm saying enemy gangs? Because, realistically, there would be no two friendly gangs. Everyone is the enemy when you want to be #1. The issue is that right now a lot of the factions are happy to share third place between four of them. Thinking that makes them #1.

Game Balance

This is a video game, I know, shocking news. But even if we disregard realism completely, it doesn't make sense from a game balance point of view to allow these mega-blocks to form. It completely forces any newer gangs to eat scraps or get pushed off the server. Should newer gangs be as strong as older ones? No. But it should be based on older ones having more experience, more weapons, etc, not just because the older gangs can say the magic word on a joint frequency and get six gangs there to hold hands. 

Strain on game engine

We're playing using RAGE which is effectively a mod for a sometimes dubious console port. This is made very clear when you drive past bank/pier/high-end and lose sixty frames with a decent computer. Even from a technical perspective, having hundreds of players in the same area is not good. You get constant crashes, and when they are not crashing, they're playing at thirty FPS. Physics are affected by FPS in this game, which means that it is actually affecting RP scenarios. 

Strain on reactionary factions

Sometimes, or even most of the time, when these large alliances clash, law enforcement/medical services will become involved. If it was just one gang against another, there would still be a large response, but it would either be less large, or over with quicker. However, when there are 20+ people to arrest, and 40+ to take to the hospital, you are quite literally crippling those factions for an hour.

That means for an hour everyone can rob stores/banks, and if a random fisherman gets injured on the way to the dropoff? He's screwed because all EMTs are at the large shootout between six gangs.

No matter how you look at things, these large shootouts between six gangs are bad for the health of the server, and should be stopped, as soon as possible.

[Bala]

When it comes to Alliances, I can understand why people would do it.
I always did feel that when previous factions were so closely grouped wasn't necessarily good for the criminal side of things and to a certain degree, it seems a little boring when one hand is washing the other. They're gone now, but that kind of thing still exists.

That being said, to me if I'm making a faction, the goal is for that faction and that faction alone to reign supreme. To be the number one faction both in role-play terms and the faction with the biggest clout and reputation on the server as well. It ain't top dogs, it's top dog.

Which of the following is more complex and exciting for all involved?

• Faction A/B/C v. Faction D/E/F
• Faction A likes Faction B and Faction C.
  Faction B likes Faction A, Faction D and Faction E.
  Faction C likes Faction A, Faction E and Faction F.
  Faction D likes Faction B, Faction E and Faction F.
  Faction E likes Faction B, Faction C and Faction D.
  Faction F likes Faction C and Faction D.

I think it would be better for the people in these factions and also, the server if the faction wars were single faction affairs from now. Not only does the reason for the conflict become more personal, on a rule level, it becomes a lot more fucking simple to remember who you can and cannot shoot at. It's very simple in PD, we have strict protocols but for you guys on the criminal side, it's a nightmare.

It is no wonder so many people play to the rules but also at the same time, end up breaking them to be honest. It's hard to keep it all straight in your head 100% of the time.

[freshprinceIE]

33 minutes ago, Bala said:

 

That being said, to me if I'm making a faction, the goal is for that faction and that faction alone to reign supreme. To be the number one faction both in role-play terms and the faction with the biggest clout and reputation on the server as well. It ain't top dogs, it's top dog.

I don't feel that this part is 100% true. Each faction should have their own goals which reflect their lores. No group should have the goal to own every turf and run the whole city. An example of this is lore friendly turds. FSO, an asian faction, should try to own turfs in Asian districts. Why should they run Stab City? Same goes for the Lost. They should run stab, but a biker group should not have influence in an asian district. This is similar to IRL. Gangs claim streets, hoods whatever but not usually a huge space.

There is nothing wrong with having an allied gang, when you can both say this is my turf, thats yours.

For unofficial factions, they have no choice but to cosy up to an official faction. Why wouldn't I be actively on a freq with Gang A, providing them backup, chops, drugs since in return they may provide me access to guns, and other illegal items at large discounts.

What bugs me is alliances with no real RP reason. You have gangs that were enemies for months, suddenly become allies on a joint freq 24/7. I've literally seen 1 of the current largest factions, fighting another(now disbanded) gang and then 1 week later they were allies going after other gangs together.

Criminal RP is pretty much ruined by other criminals. The usual thing is conflict escalates, a big fight happens, and the conflict is NLR'd. 1 side goes to the pier and shit talks for the rest of the day, until someone purposely baits another esclation so that they can fight again.

Edited January 5, 2021 by freshprinceIE

[skeletee]

The problem begins within the player base. When people stop prioritising gang-to-gang conflict as the most exciting thing to do on the server, then things will begin to improve. 

[Eloah]

33 minutes ago, freshprinceIE said:

I don't feel that this part is 100% true. Each faction should have their own goals which reflect their lores. No group should have the goal to own every turf and run the whole city. An example of this is lore friendly turds. FSO, an asian faction, should try to own turfs in Asian districts. Why should they run Stab City? Same goes for the Lost. They should run stab, but a biker group should not have influence in an asian district. This is similar to IRL. Gangs claim streets, hoods whatever but not usually a huge space.

There is nothing wrong with having an allied gang, when you can both say this is my turf, thats yours.

For unofficial factions, they have no choice but to cosy up to an official faction. Why wouldn't I be actively on a freq with Gang A, providing them backup, chops, drugs since in return they may provide me access to guns, and other illegal items at large discounts.

What bugs me is alliances with no real RP reason. You have gangs that were enemies for months, suddenly become allies on a joint freq 24/7. I've literally seen 1 of the current largest factions, fighting another(now disbanded) gang and then 1 week later they were allies going after other gangs together.

Criminal RP is pretty much ruined by other criminals. The usual thing is conflict escalates, a big fight happens, and the conflict is NLR'd. 1 side goes to the pier and shit talks for the rest of the day, until someone purposely baits another esclation so that they can fight again.

i disagree with what you have in mind , so basically every faction is trying to run the city, to gain more turfs, to become unstoppable this is what brings competition between the factions . 

Unofficial factions obviously need official factions to grow but that doesn't mean they have to be allies . they can all work together but where in the world you see 2 gangs ally against one gang to take them down? every gang in a city work together to achieve what they want unless somethings wrong , when they are not on friendly terms its their own problem they don't go cry for the bigger gang's help to wipe them out, because it's their own business .

Even if there is an alliance, there should be some sanctions against one gang for example , WCA declares war on Zetas , Triads are on friendly terms with Zetas , so they avoid supporting WCA during the conflict , they avoid selling guns or anything that might help WCA to win the war , that's how conflicts in server should work i think.

The bigger gang should be running the city and every gang should obey them and if they don't want to , it's their own problem and it's their own war so they attack to take them down or they fail and get wiped . it would be much more fun if such thing happens on the server . 

Also there is a huge bug with limited numbers for gangs , the gangs have been limited to 40 recently . in my opinion if there is a limitation for members of your gang, then there should be another rule against alliances aswell , gangs have been evading this limitation by making allies which makes sense to me unless there is a rule against it .

How ever i understand taking turfs should make sense with your gangs rp but gangs can focus on their core turf more than the others and i don't really see any problem with chinese gang running stab city , if they have the power to take it from lost mc and run it , good for them they are smart and strong . 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Eloah

[Aldarine]

After reading this over and a few responses, I wanted to just post a few of my thoughts that have gathered over time being in the server and speaking to many people. Please note that this is an opinion to promote conversation and is not intended to promote any negative feelings - at the end of the day we're all here to have a good time!

1. Joint Frequencies

Joint frequencies are not a bad thing - if they are done for the right reasons. There is a very big difference between joining on a joint frequency for the purpose of relations and business such as helping one another rob banks/stores or are simply having a bonding experience between members and going on a joint frequency to hit labs and engage in conflict. The former is appropriate, the latter not so much. The latter should not be seen and is truly what is the most disruptive. These forms of joint frequencies only serve to promote absurdly large scale conflicts and these 60 v 60 shootouts that have unfortunately grown far too common. It is important to also find a mix between being on a joint frequency and a solo frequency. Internal relations for your own organization are just as important as external relations and while activities with others are rewarding and can bring about fun times, a private frequency should always be primary meanwhile a joint can be a secondary to go on and see if there are needs, transactions that need to be made or again, planning a group activity.

2. Alliances

Alliances, in my personal opinion, do not function the way they should at all and the way they are presented in game give a bad perception of the term and relation. It makes very little sense to go up in arms and fight a battle that is not yours due to being in an alliance. The way these realistically work is, as mentioned before, through utilization of soft power. It is perfectly feasible to be in an alliance with 1, 2, 3+ other organizations for the purpose of different things all of which are mutually beneficial without amassing numbers for a firefight. Truthfully, alliances that are created and fight together show very little regard for their lives and it can be argued that the fact that you respawn at MD makes this something that's just a piece of dust on the ground. Truthfully, how much sense does it make to ride around hunting/targeting people with your allies in multiple other organizations because 1 organization did something to 1 organization. What logical sense does it make to then get a gun and risk your life when you have never been targeted nor any foul acts have been done against you? Why would I send my organization out to potentially be killed when no transgressions have been made against us but instead have been made against our allies? I really wouldn't and I don't believe people should. Consideration for life is something that people should take seriously and if there was more of a thought on that, I believe that alliances would start to move in the direction that makes a lot more sense.

3. Dominance Mindset

I have worked with a considerable number of gangs on this server, both past and present, as well as with the smaller criminal trying to build themselves up. Please note that this statement is not meant to offend anybody, but the dominance mindset needs to stop. San Andreas is a very large state with multiple counties and a wide variety of neighborhoods that are completely open and prime areas to grow influence. However, instead of viewing our roleplay environment on a large scale as it should, organizations have the tendency to have this desire to assert dominance over ECRP - they want to be the biggest and baddest organization on the server. I apologize but this is a poor mindset and one that we should look to pull away from. Neighborhoods exist, turfs exist and these should be used to promote your dominance in a realistic area of influence. Why would an organization that operates out of Grapeseed want anything to do with an organization on Grove Street? Why would a German organization that focuses on prostitution and operates primarily in Mirror Park continuously scout out an Asian organization that focuses on drug trade and operates in Little Seoul? These examples don't make sense and really if you think about it one of the biggest factors that contribute to odd actions like this is the mindset of wanting to be at the top. I truly believe we are all adults here and when we roleplay our characters in these organizations we need to do much better about understanding that a state has more than enough room for a considerable number of factions. There is no reason that smaller gangs are practically forced to disband due to not having numbers or because they have no choice but to submit to somebody who is quite literally never in their area of influence and wants it simply because others have it.

4. Larger Server Impact

It has been stated time and time again that there are more than criminal roleplayers on this server - we have taxi drivers, mechanics, law enforcement, medics, normal civilians, etc. When players of the criminal variety group up and have these absurdly large interactions, it is quite fair to say that the server pauses. Law enforcement responds and have to deal with securing a scene, organizing the people involved and arresting all those appropriate, medics have to disregard every incoming 911 call to attend to the scene and treat/transport multiple injured, mechanics may be called to assist in towing vehicles out of a scene, taxi drivers may be called to transport the countless people who respawn at a hospital, the new player that fell off their bmx bike or had a car accident is left to die on the side of the road, the average civilian that got their vehicle stolen has no law enforcement to report it to and has to suffer their car being chopped along with a Mors fee to pay.

5. Space To Breathe

Gang on gang conflict is not the end all be all in the server and I would hope that the criminal community would come to terms with that. There are so many things to do outside of shooting one another or constantly hunting/pestering each other. We are here in a roleplay community and should strive to roleplay. I have witnessed many factions disband or speak of being on the brink of disbanding due to not getting an opportunity to do their roleplay. I have heard many non criminal players speak of wanting to log of due to the impact. Everybody in this community needs to learn when things have to settle and when to focus on themselves and their organizations. 

[CalvinKlein]

Everyone complaining about alliances should realize it’s an IC issue, when you have gangs E F G hitting gangs A B C, eventually with the right escalation and diplomacy RP gangs A B C will fight the common enemy together until threat is neutralized, if you’re complaining about being outnumbered maybe crim RP is not for you; or you just just leave whatever gang you’re in if it’s constantly getting you in a bad position due to IC consequences they suffer to their IC actions

[Captain Tofu]

41 minutes ago, Eloah said:

i disagree with what you have in mind , so basically every faction is trying to run the city, to gain more turfs, to become unstoppable this is what brings competition between the factions . 

Unofficial factions obviously need official factions to grow but that doesn't mean they have to be allies . they can all work together but where in the world you see 2 gangs ally against one gang to take them down? every gang in a city work together to achieve what they want unless somethings wrong , when they are not on friendly terms its their own problem they don't go cry for the bigger gang's help to wipe them out, because it's their own business .

Even if there is an alliance, there should be some sanctions against one gang for example , WCA declares war on Zetas , Triads are on friendly terms with Zetas , so they avoid supporting WCA during the conflict , they avoid selling guns or anything that might help WCA to win the war , that's how conflicts in server should work i think.

The bigger gang should be running the city and every gang should obey them and if they don't want to , it's their own problem and it's their own war so they attack to take them down or they fail and get wiped . it would be much more fun if such thing happens on the server . 

Also there is a huge bug with limited numbers for gangs , the gangs have been limited to 40 recently . in my opinion if there is a limitation for members of your gang, then there should be another rule against alliances aswell , gangs have been evading this limitation by making allies which makes sense to me unless there is a rule against it .

How ever i understand taking turfs should make sense with your gangs rp but gangs can focus on their core turf more than the others and i don't really see any problem with chinese gang running stab city , if they have the power to take it from lost mc and run it , good for them they are smart and strong . 

I strongly disagree, this only enforces this "hive mindset", that inhibits the server's gang ecosystem.

 

There is a problem when a gang that is litterally a week new decides their main area of activities falls right inbounds on one of the only turf we had expanded to. That this same gang also happens to be "in good terms" with our ennemies with little to no diplomacy besides buying guns from them which, mind you, will be put to use against us because they also appear to have a strong hate towards us for whatever reason.

 

There's also a problem, when you're minding your own, trying put the work into your gang's RP but then get rushed in by 40 people from 5 different gangs, most of them you don't even know, just because they can.

 

There should be some sort of conflict I'm fairly certain, but what I've seen from our recent experience, it's been constant days and nights of uneeded and unnecessary "conflicts" which never bring anything to diplomacy nor RP.

 

There's this constant fear of being reported anytime you engage on your ennemy which just displays how far this conflict now had turned into an OOC war. Unfortunately flooding the forums with reports that are petty, most times driven by vengeance.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Captain Tofu

[givejoshamosin]

1 hour ago, Bala said:

When it comes to Alliances, I can understand why people would do it.
I always did feel that when previous factions were so closely grouped wasn't necessarily good for the criminal side of things and to a certain degree, it seems a little boring when one hand is washing the other. They're gone now, but that kind of thing still exists.

Which of the following is more complex and exciting for all involved?

• Faction A/B/C v. Faction D/E/F
• Faction A likes Faction B and Faction C.
  Faction B likes Faction A, Faction D and Faction E.
  Faction C likes Faction A, Faction E and Faction F.
  Faction D likes Faction B, Faction E and Faction F.
  Faction E likes Faction B, Faction C and Faction D.
  Faction F likes Faction C and Faction D.

I think it would be better for the people in these factions and also, the server if the faction wars were single faction affairs from now. Not only does the reason for the conflict become more personal, on a rule level, it becomes a lot more fucking simple to remember who you can and cannot shoot at. It's very simple in PD, we have strict protocols but for you guys on the criminal side, it's a nightmare.

It is no wonder so many people play to the rules but also at the same time, end up breaking them to be honest. It's hard to keep it all straight in your head 100% of the time.

I completely agree with whats said above, it seems much more fun, interesting and much more realistic for factions to have different relationships with each other, not A side B side.

The only thing I disagree with is this - 

1 hour ago, Bala said:

That being said, to me if I'm making a faction, the goal is for that faction and that faction alone to reign supreme. To be the number one faction both in role-play terms and the faction with the biggest clout and reputation on the server as well. It ain't top dogs, it's top dog.

Whilst it would be a big stroke of the ego to have the biggest baddest faction, factions should have room to breathe, to build, drama should only be brought to them if they mess up or another valid reason for it. There should be numerous large organisations if we are looking for realism, with many smaller organisations too. Their primary focus should be their turfs and creating steady streams of revenue for their organisation.

1 hour ago, Lola Millers said:

The problem begins within the player base. When people stop prioritising gang-to-gang conflict as the most exciting thing to do on the server, then things will begin to improve. 

100% true

 

34 minutes ago, Eloah said:

Even if there is an alliance, there should be some sanctions against one gang for example , WCA declares war on Zetas , Triads are on friendly terms with Zetas , so they avoid supporting WCA during the conflict , they avoid selling guns or anything that might help WCA to win the war , that's how conflicts in server should work i think.
 

This is true, if gang A is good friends with gang B, and gang B decides to hit gang C for stealing and chopping their cars, Gang B should retaliate and not bring gang A into the mix unless gang A finds it necessary. It would not make sense for Gang A to enter the fight unless it was affecting their money or members negatively.

36 minutes ago, Eloah said:

Also there is a huge bug with limited numbers for gangs , the gangs have been limited to 40 recently . in my opinion if there is a limitation for members of your gang, then there should be another rule against alliances aswell , gangs have been evading this limitation by making allies which makes sense to me unless there is a rule against it .

Gangs shouldn't need 40+ members, fighting shouldn't be the priority and when it is, it should be against the one gang they have a problem with, if they are both capped at 40, what is the issue.

 

26 minutes ago, Aldarine said:

After reading this over and a few responses, I wanted to just post a few of my thoughts that have gathered over time being in the server and speaking to many people. Please note that this is an opinion to promote conversation and is not intended to promote any negative feelings - at the end of the day we're all here to have a good time!

1. Joint Frequencies

Joint frequencies are not a bad thing - if they are done for the right reasons. There is a very big difference between joining on a joint frequency for the purpose of relations and business such as helping one another rob banks/stores or are simply having a bonding experience between members and going on a joint frequency to hit labs and engage in conflict. The former is appropriate, the latter not so much. The latter should not be seen and is truly what is the most disruptive. These forms of joint frequencies only serve to promote absurdly large scale conflicts and these 60 v 60 shootouts that have unfortunately grown far too common. It is important to also find a mix between being on a joint frequency and a solo frequency. Internal relations for your own organization are just as important as external relations and while activities with others are rewarding and can bring about fun times, a private frequency should always be primary meanwhile a joint can be a secondary to go on and see if there are needs, transactions that need to be made or again, planning a group activity.

2. Alliances

Alliances, in my personal opinion, do not function the way they should at all and the way they are presented in game give a bad perception of the term and relation. It makes very little sense to go up in arms and fight a battle that is not yours due to being in an alliance. The way these realistically work is, as mentioned before, through utilization of soft power. It is perfectly feasible to be in an alliance with 1, 2, 3+ other organizations for the purpose of different things all of which are mutually beneficial without amassing numbers for a firefight. Truthfully, alliances that are created and fight together show very little regard for their lives and it can be argued that the fact that you respawn at MD makes this something that's just a piece of dust on the ground. Truthfully, how much sense does it make to ride around hunting/targeting people with your allies in multiple other organizations because 1 organization did something to 1 organization. What logical sense does it make to then get a gun and risk your life when you have never been targeted nor any foul acts have been done against you? Why would I send my organization out to potentially be killed when no transgressions have been made against us but instead have been made against our allies? I really wouldn't and I don't believe people should. Consideration for life is something that people should take seriously and if there was more of a thought on that, I believe that alliances would start to move in the direction that makes a lot more sense.

3. Dominance Mindset

I have worked with a considerable number of gangs on this server, both past and present, as well as with the smaller criminal trying to build themselves up. Please note that this statement is not meant to offend anybody, but the dominance mindset needs to stop. San Andreas is a very large state with multiple counties and a wide variety of neighborhoods that are completely open and prime areas to grow influence. However, instead of viewing our roleplay environment on a large scale as it should, organizations have the tendency to have this desire to assert dominance over ECRP - they want to be the biggest and baddest organization on the server. I apologize but this is a poor mindset and one that we should look to pull away from. Neighborhoods exist, turfs exist and these should be used to promote your dominance in a realistic area of influence. Why would an organization that operates out of Grapeseed want anything to do with an organization on Grove Street? Why would a German organization that focuses on prostitution and operates primarily in Mirror Park continuously scout out an Asian organization that focuses on drug trade and operates in Little Seoul? These examples don't make sense and really if you think about it one of the biggest factors that contribute to odd actions like this is the mindset of wanting to be at the top. I truly believe we are all adults here and when we roleplay our characters in these organizations we need to do much better about understanding that a state has more than enough room for a considerable number of factions. There is no reason that smaller gangs are practically forced to disband due to not having numbers or because they have no choice but to submit to somebody who is quite literally never in their area of influence and wants it simply because others have it.

4. Larger Server Impact

It has been stated time and time again that there are more than criminal roleplayers on this server - we have taxi drivers, mechanics, law enforcement, medics, normal civilians, etc. When players of the criminal variety group up and have these absurdly large interactions, it is quite fair to say that the server pauses. Law enforcement responds and have to deal with securing a scene, organizing the people involved and arresting all those appropriate, medics have to disregard every incoming 911 call to attend to the scene and treat/transport multiple injured, mechanics may be called to assist in towing vehicles out of a scene, taxi drivers may be called to transport the countless people who respawn at a hospital, the new player that fell off their bmx bike or had a car accident is left to die on the side of the road, the average civilian that got their vehicle stolen has no law enforcement to report it to and has to suffer their car being chopped along with a Mors fee to pay.

5. Space To Breathe

Gang on gang conflict is not the end all be all in the server and I would hope that the criminal community would come to terms with that. There are so many things to do outside of shooting one another or constantly hunting/pestering each other. We are here in a roleplay community and should strive to roleplay. I have witnessed many factions disband or speak of being on the brink of disbanding due to not getting an opportunity to do their roleplay. I have heard many non criminal players speak of wanting to log of due to the impact. Everybody in this community needs to learn when things have to settle and when to focus on themselves and their organizations. 

Summed up what I was trying to get across pretty much perfectly and added much more, it would be nice if we could get to this point ICly, without having to create OOC limits (rules) to get there, as Lola said, there needs to be a change by the player base, and those in charge of their factions. 

 

The server would be a much better place, where gangs supported themselves, and this is coming from someone in a much smaller gang compared to a lot of them on the server. I'm not talking about supporting themselves by being the only ones to feed their turfs, but I mean not relying on a Joint Frequency for every thing that happens.

People will find that spending time with their own gang, on a freq with everyone within your organisation and working on shared goals to better themselves makes more sense and will be more fun. 

Joint Frequencies make sense in times where as Alderine said, robbing banks/stores together. It does not make sense to be rushing a lab with other gangs checking for the other half of crim RP to fight.

[krooks365]

4 hours ago, Aldarine said:

However, instead of viewing our roleplay environment on a large scale as it should, organizations have the tendency to have this desire to assert dominance over ECRP - they want to be the biggest and baddest organization on the server. I apologize but this is a poor mindset and one that we should look to pull away from. Neighborhoods exist, turfs exist and these should be used to promote your dominance in a realistic area of influence. Why would an organization that operates out of Grapeseed want anything to do with an organization on Grove Street? Why would a German organization that focuses on prostitution and operates primarily in Mirror Park continuously scout out an Asian organization that focuses on drug trade and operates in Little Seoul? These examples don't make sense and really if you think about it one of the biggest factors that contribute to odd actions like this is the mindset of wanting to be at the top. I truly believe we are all adults here and when we roleplay our characters in these organizations we need to do much better about understanding that a state has more than enough room for a considerable number of factions. There is no reason that smaller gangs are practically forced to disband due to not having numbers or because they have no choice but to submit to somebody who is quite literally never in their area of influence and wants it simply because others have it.

^ 

5 hours ago, Lola Millers said:

The problem begins within the player base. When people stop prioritising gang-to-gang conflict as the most exciting thing to do on the server, then things will begin to improve. 

^

Rules, Alliances, Joint Freqs are not the problem - they are a side effect of the Dominance Mindset that is so prevalent in the majority of criminal players and gangs. There is NO rp reason for a majority of the actions I have observed as of late other than a desire to PVP and swing your dick around like your the biggest baddest organization in the entire city. This change can only happen when players and factions (and their leadership) decide to focus on RP and its vast opportunities over just logging in to shoot as soon as you magically stumble your way into dm rights.   

[givejoshamosin]

48 minutes ago, krooks365 said:

Rules, Alliances, Joint Freqs are not the problem - they are a side effect of the Dominance Mindset that is so prevalent in the majority of criminal players and gangs. There is NO rp reason for a majority of the actions I have observed as of late other than a desire to PVP and swing your dick around like your the biggest baddest organization in the entire city. This change can only happen when players and factions (and their leadership) decide to focus on RP and its vast opportunities over just logging in to shoot as soon as you magically stumble your way into dm rights.   

In my opinion, the Dominance Mindset, and  the joint frequencies come hand in hand, it would be humbling to both sides of this "war" to work on their own. The players and leadership need to make a communal decision to move on and fix the current state of affairs otherwise it's just going to stay the same until one side gets bored and leaves the server.

 

[krooks365]

6 minutes ago, givejoshamosin said:

The players and leadership need to make a communal decision to move on and fix the current state of affairs otherwise it's just going to stay the same until one side gets bored and leaves the server.

Then I suggest the best thing to do it to speak to your groups leadership about this. This suggestion only works if everyone is willing to come to the table and agree to stop this behavior. That unfortunately is not something people seem willing to do at this time. Otherwise you wouldn't see rampant conflict and engagements happening literally the same day leadership seemingly "agree"  to stop engaging in such.

[givejoshamosin]

16 minutes ago, krooks365 said:

Then I suggest the best thing to do it to speak to your groups leadership about this. This suggestion only works if everyone is willing to come to the table and agree to stop this behavior. That unfortunately is not something people seem willing to do at this time. Otherwise you wouldn't see rampant conflict and engagements happening literally the same day leadership seemingly "agree"  to stop engaging in such.

It's a big blend of OOC hate, fuelled with the desire to shoot. We have plans of changing it around and I think if people are willing it can be done in a few weeks. Nothing is overnight, but actually taking the steps forward to do something is better than just denying it's possibilities. 

[skeletee]

Regardless of any plausible change that anyone suggests, the player base will stay, and this is where the problem lies.

FM can be more involved in who our allies are, who we are on joint frequency with - you can even give criminal RPers what they want and add more "script" things to do in the server to steer them away from gang-to-gang conflict, and so on.. but nothing will change when people create gangs that have a core purpose of being more powerful than the other or running other people out of the server for whatever reason. Using turfs as an example, it gave more members things to do, but it also - at one point - caused factions to turf-bomb loads of turfs just because they can, even when it made no sense to their lore to do so. Every gang has the potential to offer something different and unique to the server, and the sooner we realise this, the better, the faster everyone can enjoy their time on the server. The server is simply too large for one alliance to run all of it.

I'm not saying that every gang has to be friends with one another, we are RPing criminals after all and every story of each faction is different. For example, due to Daichead Gadai being an Irish faction based on the development of Irish independence through working with the IRA, it would make zero sense for us to be close with a British faction due to the British-inflicted mass starvation in the 1800s and the nation itself being separated into two due to Britain's ruling.

 However, the culture of the server has to change and factions need to work towards being able to bounce off of one another to promote RP opportunities all around. There needs to be a focus on making even negatively-impacting RP situations one that is enjoyable for everyone. For example, we fought Lost MC at Stab City and filmed a “call-out video”, to which the leader later PMd me to let me know that he found it hilarious. I don't believe that any of this responsibility lies in FM, but rather faction leaders and high-command. Faction leaders are responsible to lead by example. If the faction leaders themselves wish to only fight and escalate conflict, so will the rest of their members. It is that simple. FM cannot change the player base. They can listen to factions' concerns and generate a general understanding of the current in-game affairs and how it's affecting the faction, but if the problem is in the player base, there is not much else they can do.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Lola Millers

[givejoshamosin]

17 minutes ago, Lola Millers said:

Regardless of any plausible change that anyone suggests, the player base will stay, and this is where the problem lies.

FM can be more involved in who our allies are, who we are on joint frequency with - you can even give criminal RPers what they want and add more "script" things to do in the server to steer them away from gang-to-gang conflict, and so on.. but nothing will change when people create gangs that have a core purpose of being more powerful than the other or running other people out of the server for whatever reason. Using turfs as an example, it gave more members things to do, but it also - at one point - caused factions to turf-bomb loads of turfs just because they can, even when it made no sense to their lore to do so. Every gang has the potential to offer something different and unique to the server, and the sooner we realise this, the better, the faster everyone can enjoy their time on the server. The server is simply too large for one alliance to run all of it.

I'm not saying that every gang has to be friends with one another, we are RPing criminals after all and every story of each faction is different. For example, due to Daichead Gadai being an Irish faction based on the development of Irish independence through working with the IRA, it would make zero sense for us to be close with a British faction due to the British-inflicted mass starvation in the 1800s and the nation itself being separated into two due to Britain's ruling.

 However, the culture of the server has to change and factions need to work towards being able to bounce off of one another to promote RP opportunities all around. There needs to be a focus on making even negatively-impacting RP situations one that is enjoyable for everyone. I don't believe that any of this responsibility lies in FM, but rather faction leaders and high-command. Faction leaders are responsible to lead by example. If the faction leaders themselves wish to only fight and escalate conflict, so will the rest of their members. It is that simple. FM cannot change the player base. They can listen to factions' concerns and generate a general understanding of the current in-game affairs and how it's affecting the faction, but if the problem is in the player base, there is not much else they can do.

I'm not sure if you read what I have been saying wrong, or I simply suggested it all wrong. But my intentions with this post was not to get FM to change the RP for us with rules, it was the opposite. It was to wake up our player base to realise that we need to change, which is why I agree with you. There's no problem with gangs being friendly with each other but there's no need to pretty much merge into one gang.

It's up to us to change it.

[Bala]

The main problem is, everyone wants something different and we're all trying to move the community in different directions.

• People want more realism until it doesn't suit their argument, then "it's a game".
• People want more roleplay until it's no longer convenient for them to be in a role-play environment.
• People want to rob as much as they possibly can until they themselves are getting robbed.
• People want to put criminals in prison so badly, until they don't have any one to chase and then complain there is nothing to do.

Every week one of these threads gets made and while there might be some good points raised, it never goes anywhere and these state of the whatever threads become a bit of a meme. I can't be arsed seeing another 51 of these this year tbh.

It's not massively complicated.

• Get everyone together that matters on this subject. Developers, senior admins, FM leadership, leaders of the relevant factions.
• Establish a proper long term plan that covers both how factions should behave/operate from now on and an outline of potential script support that encourages this, for both legal and illegal factions. Make sure that those people that will be subject the plan will have some kind of influence on how it's set out.
  (Most people don't have to have things their own way, just feel included in the process)
• Share the plan with the community so even if things aren't immediately added, the server knows they in the pipeline and implement it.
  (No one likes surprises and if you leave people to come up with their own conclusions, they'll usually assume the worst)
• Fuck anyone off that doesn't get with the program for the betterment of the server.
  (Better to have 200 good players than spoil the population with those people that don't actually give a shit about a better server.)

[mikebumbum]

This idea is great I just want to add that if this does happen PD needs to be scaled down to the size they were a year or two ago because at this moment it's almost impossible to do even small crimes with many groups it will be even harder when your backup is 6 people. Smaller gangs should be able to rob stores without 30 cops pulling up on them. If everyone follows these new rules and PD becomes not only a realistic size again, but follows realistic RP (Such as not always driving a super car or having a carbine and a micro equipped just because) Then the server as a whole will move in a better direction. If we are going to get rid of the toxicity from one side this year lets remove it from all sides and make the game more enjoyable for all! 

[Bala]

41 minutes ago, mikebumbum said:

This idea is great I just want to add that if this does happen PD needs to be scaled down to the size they were a year or two ago because at this moment it's almost impossible to do even small crimes with many groups it will be even harder when your backup is 6 people. Smaller gangs should be able to rob stores without 30 cops pulling up on them. If everyone follows these new rules and PD becomes not only a realistic size again, but follows realistic RP (Such as not always driving a super car or having a carbine and a micro equipped just because) Then the server as a whole will move in a better direction. If we are going to get rid of the toxicity from one side this year lets remove it from all sides and make the game more enjoyable for all! 

This is what I'm talking about getting boring. You've instantly made this criminal v. PD.

In the example you mentioned regarding robbing stores, if you play it safe with lookouts and robbing the stores on the quiet roads, you can be gone before anyone even gets there most of the time. Perhaps instead of looking to engage police with six people, focus on playing it safe, doing your dirt and getting gone before cops even show up. Most people get caught slipping because they are sloppy. Be a better criminal. 

As for the super car and the Carbine and such, we're a reactionary faction. Our response is based on your actions. If you start shooting at cops, we're going to get grumpy and bring the tools out. If you insist on driving the fastest, the super car is going to be coming out. Again, make it hard for us to arrest by using your head, not clicking your mouse.

PD needs to do better on driving. If I'm being honest, we probably crash a little too much and have too many vehicles in pursuits when we don't need them but we're in no way allowed to be toxic. It might be easier to follow rules when in PD, but we don't have the same freedoms that non-PD do.

I think while the new jail may offer up a different kind of roleplay experience, I think the fines that people get on top are too punishing for criminals, especially criminals lower down the food chain who have less. 15k for someone might an inconvenience to a expert crim but it might be nearly everything to someone starting out.

See, I'm capable of being upfront and honest about where we could do better.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Bala

[alexalex303]

1 hour ago, Bala said:

I think while the new jail may offer up a different kind of roleplay experience, I think the fines that people get on top are too punishing for criminals, especially criminals lower down the food chain who have less. 15k for someone might an inconvenience to a expert crim but it might be nearly everything to someone starting out.

See, I'm capable of being upfront and honest about where we could do better.

I would love to see fines that scale on your income, similar to the tax system. Shows that it's possible and some of the groundwork is already done. Say something like a $500 base + % of net worth. Obviously percentage would be higher on stuff like murder and much lower on reckless operation. 

[CalvinKlein]

22 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

I would love to see fines that scale on your income, similar to the tax system. Shows that it's possible and some of the groundwork is already done. Say something like a $500 base + % of net worth. Obviously percentage would be higher on stuff like murder and much lower on reckless operation. 

Wouldnt make sense that myself and the same person can commit the same crime and because im more rich i'd get fined more theoretically, just lowering down the fines in general would be the best option imo

[Felcon]

20 minutes ago, CalvinKlein said:

just lowering down the fines in general would be the best option imo

 

[Kazjii]

3 hours ago, Bala said:

This is what I'm talking about getting boring. You've instantly made this criminal v. PD.

In the example you mentioned regarding robbing stores, if you play it safe with lookouts and robbing the stores on the quiet roads, you can be gone before anyone even gets there most of the time. Perhaps instead of looking to engage police with six people, focus on playing it safe, doing your dirt and getting gone before cops even show up. Most people get caught slipping because they are sloppy. Be a better criminal. 

As for the super car and the Carbine and such, we're a reactionary faction. Our response is based on your actions. If you start shooting at cops, we're going to get grumpy and bring the tools out. If you insist on driving the fastest, the super car is going to be coming out. Again, make it hard for us to arrest by using your head, not clicking your mouse.

PD needs to do better on driving. If I'm being honest, we probably crash a little too much and have too many vehicles in pursuits when we don't need them but we're in no way allowed to be toxic. It might be easier to follow rules when in PD, but we don't have the same freedoms that non-PD do.

I think while the new jail may offer up a different kind of roleplay experience, I think the fines that people get on top are too punishing for criminals, especially criminals lower down the food chain who have less. 15k for someone might an inconvenience to a expert crim but it might be nearly everything to someone starting out.

See, I'm capable of being upfront and honest about where we could do better.

This. I feel not only the system being set up on a reactionary base where when IC crime gets to a certain level, the law enforcement has to bind and find a new way to work with the surrounding environment.

Especially within the last year with Covid, the server saw numbers it has NEVER seen before which offered both legal and illegal factions a whole new population and player base it wouldnt have had prior. With this being said, it goes without discussion that this will inevitably bring more crime (more people -> more gangs -> more criminal network relations). The problem here to me is the last part- criminal network connections. As stated by Bala:

16 hours ago, Bala said:

 

Faction A/B/C v. Faction D/E/F

Faction A likes Faction B and Faction C.
Faction B likes Faction A, Faction D and Faction E.
Faction C likes Faction A, Faction E and Faction F.
Faction D likes Faction B, Faction E and Faction F.
Faction E likes Faction B, Faction C and Faction D.
Faction F likes Faction C and Faction D.

When there are multiple groups, you will have multiple opinions of the other said groups which can and most definitely has led to conflict. To be frank, the game of victim should stop being played in forum reports to start. Constant ruleplaying and petty inquiries to see if they can get the other rival gang member in trouble is something way too common and tends to bleed bad ooc tensions.

Now within IC matters, good points were hit on by ALX. If you are tired of PD/SD treading in on the crimes you commit, that is something that should spark ideas of how to change your public crime operations. Stated earlier, scout the store, rob on the less traveled road, etc. Dont huddle in the middle of a road with 4 reblas, 6 drags, and 10 other misc cars and then complain later that you were caught and you had to suffer consequences. The list goes on on how you can outsmart SD and PD.

I will say, I play a legal character in SD. Im on the opposite side of the aisle here. I think the repercussions for an illegal player should be lifted a bit. Fines equaling in hours of grinding just to have it thrown away in weapon purchases along with other buys like cars/food/drinks is something that I personally wouldnt enjoy doing and from what I hear from other crims, they dont either. I feel some system that is fair and proportional to your earnings would be smart and useful for the players moral in the server. Instead of feeling dragged and burnt out on grinding, the player could possibly not lose so much morale when being jailed after a heinous crime. But with changes - it needs to be recognized that the crime comes with a consequence.

Somethings that were touched on earlier as main points... Joint frequencies are cool but when it becomes a thing where gang A and gang B are never on separated frequencies and are holding each others hands in these clap fests, it destroys the benefit of having allies - youre basically the same gang but in different colors and different masks. Next, OOC toxicity. When it comes to this, its very hard to understand. Its a large rule within the server and to see the same people from the same groups say the same cookie cutter insults in /b is something that has been on the trend recently. Something I expect from new players who may not know its a rule to say semi to severe insulting things in /b is coming from people who have alot of XP in the server. Not only is the tension in IC setting tensing up because of rather nonsensical reasons, but OOC tensions among the groups goes up as well with these snarky comments. 

Nothing I would like more to see the criminal rp be more enjoyable for the average crim; however, it doesn't just include scripting or updates within game. I think crims ( and law enforcement as well ) should focus on creating a more healthy environment for each other. I dont mean stop shootings and crime of course, but OOC toxicity and acting like the same cookie cutter gang banger where you dont offer any other rp than shooting and looting should stop. We are a RP server, not a gta online lobby that offers some realistic elements. RP should be fun for all parties, no one should feel unequal. 

We are a community, and to fix this issue, we need to work together united, not dispersed and separate. Lets work on being more healthy with eachother.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Kazjii

[KimeyBear101]

I do agree with post. 

I always see gangs teaming together and focusing on their power by numbers. This can sometimes cause lack of community in their gangs. I have always thought gangs were to bring people together and have them work in a tight group, that were loyal to each other. Gangs should be about community and keeping this sense of community high between their members instead of focusing on wars/joint freqs. 

This idea of more numbers the better, really does make it difficult for smaller groups or gangs to have a start in the city. I've witness many small gangs being run out of the city because another gang or gangs have had the numbers to 'clap them all'. Although there should be a level of respect between gangs and a in written code between gangs, they should still be focused on their people and less focused on showing numbers. RPLY it should be gangs are very loyal to their own kind and hardly ever seen with other gangs unless it was for well thought out rp reasoning. 

I am sure if everyone works with their FM and other gangs oocly, we can balance out a high criminal rp for all!