War Status discussion

[Machete]

I'd like to start a discussion about the new war status rules and guidelines. I'd love to hear your opinion here in a respectfull manner.

I personally didn't like most of what i've read in here, I know people want more realism but I don't like the idea of not being able to spend any time with your friends(gang) after you've been War killed, Its still a game after all and we're all here to have fun. Not to mention having to buy new clothing and having to change your car colours twice because if this. While making money as a crim is already way harder then any legal job. So you're gonna be forced to use IC money because of an OOC rule.

Before this all started someone already sent out blank texts to see which high command members of zetas and triads are in town. I personally think this is only going to get worse so that they can target high command members and easily win the war.

I felt that there already was way too much ruleplaying going on in the forums but this is just going to add more to the already long list.

The economy in eclipse is not in your favour if you've not been here from the start, Having put so much time into getting your assets to get them removed because someone OOCly decided you should give them up doesn't seem right in my book.

What about PD and SD during the war? They have an insane amount of members, they will just seal club everything after the first big fight.

Not every faction seeks to become official, fog for example, so they shouldn't be allowed to enter a war?

I dislike the amount of OOC involment, Its going to affect and ruin a lot of IC actions in my opinion.

So you can mass recruit 60 players at bank, submit a war application and get it approved to go to war with a faction of 20 members to get free assets from that 20 player gang. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by NM369

[MVGGreg]

Its definetly a massive change and to be honest I'm not overly fond of it but some changes can be made to perfect this new system

[Frewer]

59 minutes ago, NM369 said:

know people want more realism but I don't like the idea of not being able to spend any time with your friends(gang) after you've been War killed, Its still a game after all and we're all here to have fun. Not to mention having to buy new clothing and having to change your car colours twice because if this. While making money as a crim is already way harder then any legal job. So you're gonna be forced to use IC money because of an OOC rule.

+1

[Oli]

I totally agree with what you've said. IC actions have IC consequences, if a faction makes an IC action towards another faction that would realistically cause an immediate consequence for example starting a war, so be it.
Wars are IC and always have been, gangs disbanded because of it and others thrived because of it and the outcome of these wars is totally IC aswell, whether money is demanded from the losing side or whatever.

Being one of Misfits' HC back when they existed, this is what we were told when we were being wiped by the council, it was for IC reasons. And if we wanted it solved, there was IC ways to do so, not OOC. So I dont get why its all turning OOC now all of a sudden?

Regarding WK, we're crims cuz we love crim rp, how else are we supposed to enjoy playing the game if we're not allowed to hang out/communicate/help our faction during wars and even normal times when we're just vibin chillin at HQ because of an OOC restriction?

 

[JakeInnit_]

I dont wanna have to spend 300k to change all my car colours when I get WK'd then 300k to change it back after the war.

Not to mention nearly all my friends on the server are in my faction or allied factions and not being allowed to play with them for the duration of the war will suck, I'll probably just not login.

[moment]

1 minute ago, JakeInnit_ said:

I dont wanna have to spend 300k to change all my car colours when I get WK'd then 300k to change it back after the war.

Not to mention nearly all my friends on the server are in my faction or allied factions and not being allowed to play with them for the duration of the war will suck, I'll probably just not login.

I agree with jake so much here, it's a game at the end of the day and applying so many rules to a game always end up ruining the gameplay and the fun. Mexicans back in the day were in a war with council and their allies and never complained once. 

[reeceobz]

1 hour ago, NM369 said:

I dislike the amount of OOC involment, Its going to affect and ruin a lot of IC actions in my opinion.

I can agree with this, I've been in zetas for well over a year and have never dropped my colours but I may have to if war comes and someone WK'S me? Kinda ridiculous if your asking me. Dropping colours and not affiliating should be a In Character choice for that person. Hows it fair to make the decision for people? If PD die during a war to a so called WK will be able to go on duty and resume there day as usual? There comes a big change when colours are dropped.

[MrSilky]

Being shot in a gun fight won't result in you being war killed. Being war killed comes from in-depth RP from both sides (such as kidnapping a high ranking member of the opposing faction and demanding something in return for their life). 

[BabaYagaBruh]

I have very mixed feeling about this. I understand staff wants more RP in wars and had issues with NLR and how it became shootout, restock and go again. But this is, in my opinion, extremely overbearing and hand-holding. 

Rules about gangs that do not have handlers not being able to participate.

Why? If a group that is not trying to become a gang have IC grievances with a gang and want to see their downfall, why can they not reach out during a war and offer their aid to take them down? To me there is no IC justification for groups to not be able to help on either side of a war if they have actual IC reasons to join in. This is just OOC hampering for no apparent reason.

Closed recruitment during war. 

Why can't people who have IC grievances with a gang seek to join an apposing faction during a war? I understand this is in place to stop artificially buffing numbers during a war to have a better chance. But should this not be opened up a little more? Why not trust official factions to vet a proper IC reason from the people who seek to join during these times?

Only one official faction ally in war. 

This makes absolutely no sense to me from a IC perspective. If a gang has more than one official faction ally, one has to sit it out because of OOC reasons? Only reason I see this being added is to make it harder to have a dominant union on the server. This is literally OOC restriction on factions politics and RP with each other.

Kidnapping.

There is a lot of possibilities for abuse here. People claiming to not know where people are held and so forth might be impossible to disprove. What constitutes a valuable target? I am questioning how this will work on a goodwill basis, but that will be seen later down the road. Hopefully it will work well. That being said, this is obviously a rule that can be very interesting and change things up when it comes to wars. 

War killed.

This I do have problems with. I understand that it makes wars much higher stakes and more realistic. But if I am to look at it from the point of view of someone that got unlucky and now has to be excluded from everything on their character for up to weeks, it is a massive OOC punishment. I get that this is added to make wars have a more clear way to end, but is this really a necessary addition? In my opinion it is way too harsh, and I wouldn't want anyone from any enemy gang to have to be excluded from all RP like that for days to weeks. It adds a system of targeting higher ups and shutting down a gang like that, which is a cool concept, but as a game we're here to enjoy, it is extremely harsh and punishing. If you want to exclude bad actors from a war because they abuse NLR, or meta, or anything else, you can just do so on a case-by-case basis. Not to mention you have to pay to change colours, new clothing. It'll effectively make the average official faction criminal character unplayable until the war is over, all their friends and assets are tied up in gang related things. Do you really want people to have to quit playing for a period because of a war? It's way too extreme.

Resolution.

Honestly, why not just let this be worked out IC? Why must this be sorted out by faction management? If a gang starts losing, it'll be evident in the fact that they'll lose members, they won't be able to move around freely and the colours will be dropped. To me there is not a reason why we need faction management to preside over whether or not a war has ended. Say a leader has been kidnapped for over a day, and the faction has a second in command that has taken the reigns, and got 30 people out trying to find the location of the captive leader. It would be absolutely insane to end a war over this, if the members are still fighting? All of these resolution possibilities seem to be such cop outs to end wars quickly. If you struggle getting the HQ back and your group IC relocates to regroup and plan an attack to regain it, you could still lose the war by OOC reasons? In my opinion all of this is IC stuff that doesn't need OOC regulation from a win outcome checklist. Everyone knows a war is lost when either sides members are not to be found any more, and surely faction management would see this and seen this in the past? 

Penalties.

Why does there have to be added in penalties for losing? You already lost all your members, bunch of weapons. To take a super expensive HQ away from the person who owns it makes no sense to me. If they lose a war, they will not be able to use a HQ anyway, as it would be hit immediately upon recognizing the reuse by a gang. 

Allies.

Why can't allies switch sides? Again, why must OOC reasons dictate over possible IC scenarios that could occur?

Summary.

To summarize. I think there is a bunch of issues here. Huge OOC punishments for those who get "WKed", assets being seized, peoples ability to play will be ruined for possibly weeks because of these changes. There are both rules that are made for realism, and there are rules made for gamification and for restriction present. It is strange. It seems like the staff team wants to handhold and govern official gangs in how they operate wars. I thought official gangs had shown the ability to be trusted and to have high quality RP? so why is all this needed? If the case is that some factions don't, or that some members don't - then punish individually! Some of these changes are way too extreme and restrictive.

Note that this is just my opinion, and I have nothing against anyone that like these changes or those who made them.

Edited April 30, 2020 by BabaYagaBruh

[Copperhorse]

I like most of the WK rules.

I don't agree with not having to have any contact with your gang if you get WK'd. I've played solo criminal before, it's REALLY boring. People will just be leaving the server until the war ends which I don't think we should encourage.

I think a much more reasonable punishment should be a monetary payment to either the other gang or to faction management. If you fail ICly there should be a much larger punishment than just that momentary death. But an OOC punishment for weeks is just too hard. Maybe a payment of 500k-1m to be paid within 24 hours, in which case you fail to pay, you are then OOC banished from the war.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Copperhorse

[moment]

Just now, MrSilky said:

Being shot in a gun fight won't result in you being war killed. Being war killed comes from in-depth RP from both sides (such as kidnapping a high ranking member of the opposing faction and demanding something in return for their life). 

The kidnapping was a good addition but as stated, changing colors of clothes and vehicles cause your warkilled like makes 0 sense, in reality people represent their colors no matter what if they have honor for their family, you cannot just force them against their will :wutface:

[Machete]

4 minutes ago, MrSilky said:

Being shot in a gun fight won't result in you being war killed. Being war killed comes from in-depth RP from both sides (such as kidnapping a high ranking member of the opposing faction and demanding something in return for their life). 

High ranking members of a faction are players too, They want to log into the game like everyone else and enjoy spending time with their friends. With the mass presense of PD and SD this is already a big problem when they start thinking of every possible charge to throw at you.

We've already seen people metagaming with blank texts, I'm sure this will make it worse. 

[KCAJ]

"A war may be ended in two ways. Either the gangs reach terms themselves and agree to end the war or Faction Management declares a winner." i think this is the most ridiculous thing, why should faction management decide who wins?, It should be all about IC with wars and not more OOC rules. Faction management aren't going to be watching over the war for hours and hours every day so why should they decide who wins?

[Ezrya]

Completely agree here, I feel now wars have way too much OOC involvement. I definetly don't like the idea of being forced to have no interaction with my faction if WK'd. Most of my friends on the server are in the faction and it's allies so not being able to interact with them and spend money dropping colors would suck, at this point there would be no point in logging on. I'm not sure why someone else should dictate if my character gets to no longer participate in a war and even get to socialise with friends. I feel as if there should be some change here to where you can interact with faction members socially just not assist them in any way.

As for gang wars being resolved through faction management this is completely unnecessary, this can easily all be done IC. While I can see these rules were made in good faith to further improve the criminal side of the server and to move gang wars away from just hunt, shootouts, wait for NLR and repeat, there's just way too much OOC involvement in wars now.

[Frewer]

What time are you lot going bed?

[moment]

33 minutes ago, Ezrya said:

Completely agree here, I feel now wars have way too much OOC involvement. I definetly don't like the idea of being forced to have no interaction with my faction if WK'd. Most of my friends on the server are in the faction and it's allies so not being able to interact with them and spend money dropping colors would suck, at this point there would be no point in logging on. I'm not sure why someone else should dictate if my character gets to no longer participate in a war and even get to socialise with friends. I feel as if there should be some change here to where you can interact with faction members socially just not assist them in any way.

As for gang wars being resolved through faction management this is completely unnecessary, this can easily all be done IC. While I can see these rules were made in good faith to further improve the criminal side of the server and to move gang wars away from just hunt, shootouts, wait for NLR and repeat, there's just way too much OOC involvement in wars now.

Couldn't have said it any better, all facts as my vato friend pointed as well @BabaYagaBruh

[kris giggs]

I see Faction Management is trying to make wars more strategic and with that, improve the amount and quality of roleplay.

1 hour ago, KCAJ said:

"A war may be ended in two ways. Either the gangs reach terms themselves and agree to end the war or Faction Management declares a winner." i think this is the most ridiculous thing, why should faction management decide who wins?, It should be all about IC with wars and not more OOC rules. Faction management aren't going to be watching over the war for hours and hours every day so why should they decide who wins?

Very true, but some things like wars in this case may not have a clear end or stoppage point. What truly makes a renown war winner? Is it winning every/most gunfight with the least losses? Is it who stays in the fight for longer with the most numbers? All of these things to me have to do with player involvement and not necessarily roleplay, at what cost do you fight day in and day out, losing assets, people, dignity and so on. No, I am not saying that Faction Management should select the outcome of the war because that is impossible, they do not see what we see, the people that fight, but yet again, will I really say 'okay, I give up, they won, they killed 4/20/100 people more than we did'? Faction Management created a plausible option to be selected if wars go for months on end with no good roleplay, everyone likes getting the heavy out and having a blast but is that really considered 'good roleplay' and how does that present the gang scene to newcomers? To sum it up, your question can be answered with the kidnapping and WK system, or I guess that is what FM is going for since fighting a war that reaches scales up to a 100 people in one fight 10 times every day seems pretty unrealistic, when have you really seen 2, 3, 4 or even 5 gangs in a city fight till death, never, gangs are and should be much bigger than that, clashes of number are a must here and there but money enterprises and drug empires fight different, strategic wars, the exact one FM has allowed us to fight via kidnapping high ranking members and WK's.

1 hour ago, NM369 said:

High ranking members of a faction are players too, They want to log into the game like everyone else and enjoy spending time with their friends. With the mass presense of PD and SD this is already a big problem when they start thinking of every possible charge to throw at you.

We've already seen people metagaming with blank texts, I'm sure this will make it worse. 

Good point, there are hardships on both sides and I myself don't agree with the most points the WK system has presented us, some leniency must be added or removal of entire rules must be considered.

1 hour ago, Copperhorse said:

I like most of the WK rules.

I don't agree with not having to have any contact with your gang if you get WK'd. I've played solo criminal before, it's REALLY boring. People will just be leaving the server until the war ends which I don't think we should encourage.

I think a much more reasonable punishment should be a monetary payment to either the other gang or to faction management. If you fail ICly there should be a much larger punishment than just that momentary death. But an OOC punishment for weeks is just too hard. Maybe a payment of 500k-1m to be paid within 24 hours, in which case you fail to pay, you are then OOC banished from the war.

I'd throw a rough estimate but I am pretty sure that more than 1/3 of the server is involved in roleplay with an official criminal faction or a group that is aiming to become one. Picking people off, generating unrealistic demands and then kicking them out the war seems pretty harsh to me. Monetary demands seems realistic but up to what sum, a low ranking member does not value the same as the head of the gang, but you won't be kidnapping a low ranking member now will you? Faction Management has made it really hard for known high ranking gang members to wander around in a war, and that is totally fine, but ending an entire war or banishing a player because they got caught out seems pretty stupid. Known drug cartels and organizations (in real life) have had their leaders kills, forcefully removed or even in this case, kidnapped, but it never ceased operation because a gang is bigger than one person, there is always someone else to take place, unless you take everyone capable of leading out the war? I have a feeling these rules were rushed, they were thought through but not thoroughly enough to have a possible outcome for most possible scenarios.

 

There are a lot of points to be made and discussed, this is just my little input and reply on the current thoughts :^)

Edited April 30, 2020 by kris giggs

[Durand The Philosopher]

This whole idea is good on paper but terrible in practice.

[Itzsonzy]

It's a love hate thing for me personally, while i welcome changes like not being able to use vehicles as weapons and some of the WK features, i feel like this is just wayyyyy too much influence over IC events. Even in the shelbys we have seen the changes and are kind of just sat here like "now what". I understand that it was to make it less of a toxic atmosphere, but i feel that too much OOC interferance takes heavily away from the RP that has unfolded and would have unfolded otherwise.

[Bala]

This is great, if it's combined with more stuff for criminals to do. Feel like half the shooting comes from there not being much else to do.

Good that there is finally some structure to these things.

[Msato]

This entire system was created with the help of FM, Senior Staff and Criminal Faction leaders + their command.

Overall it aims to be a controlled solution to the current mess wars are in, whilst adding further roleplay and risk vs reward. Along with this allowing actual goals and timespans to be set for wars. At the end of the day we should be here for more than just shooting. 

The initial area I'd like to cover is the "Only two official factions can be allied" this was raised as an issue from all criminals, and it was still not removed. Its a straight ooc restriction on IC criminal politics (which we have a lot of). This should be removed in my opinion, so long as the alliance has the proper back story and makes sense. 

Onto the "War Kill" this was a suggestion that came solely from the criminal side and was very well received by staff. The goal of this is to add further depth to criminal rp, whilst providing a realistic system on punishing gangs who are no careful with their actions. The WK system as a whole should not directly threat everybody, it was more focused to the higherup members in gangs, who would realistically be key targets during a war. 

Onto the "If I get War Killed I just won't play" that is your choice, if you cannot accept you made a mistake or were at a natural disadvantage leading to your War Kill then in my opinion its quite petty. There will be others who are war killed, allowed these poeple to interact as if they were two socials. When you have been war killed you can focus solely on your character and its individual progression, whether that me making new associates or increasing your assets by working / committing crimes. Wars will no longer last the multiple week spans as they once did, take that into account. 

As for "unrealistic demands to start wars" each official gang has to make an application, which will be highly detailed with evidence in their reasoning for war. FM will then be the quality control on the reasoning for these wars, therefor preventing any petty wars occurring. 

For those saying "I don't to pay to change clothes and car colours" again this is a punishment for your actions, if you cannot take the losses of war you shouldn't be involved. If someone was war killed they would likely spend less money changing a cars colours and their clothes, than they would buying a new heavy weapon after they die. 

And the final point to cover, financial and asset loss. There has been a long needed way to resolve wars that don't always result in gangs disbanding. If a gang was to engage in a war and then lose severely, why shouldn't they lose their HQ property? People seem to forget that these same properties were given to you by FM for free, not an individual buying it (in the case of official factions). If you're afraid of losing the war so bad you lose all assets, perhaps thats time for the gang to look at a settlement cost. 

 

Overall the new system is here to improve criminal rp and move it away from 30 minute gun fight cycles, which is something most players should like. There will still be shootouts, you will still be able to return after losing a shootout. Killing a member off from a war takes high rp and a lot of time / planning involved, which should be rewarded. There are some areas that need smoothed out or given clarification, but that will come in time. Nothing is perfect from the get go. 

[Aldari]

@Durand The Philosopher

Impressive conclusion, given that it hasn't been used in practice yet. 

[Bala]

Having had a second read of it, I can't help that it micromanages the factions a little too much in ways that is needed.

To me, all you need is a legit reason to fight, terms to fight by, a fair fight and a way to win. That stuff should be agreed on by both faction leaders with faction management only stepping in if it's necessary. You want to keep the OOC stuff to a minimum and just let them go at it.

As a neutral, all I want is for the fights to happen in low traffic areas and not to be constant. Don't start World War III at the parking lot, take it to the scrapyard or something and only have the fights a few times a day. You still wanna get your down time and roleplay in, than just go go go.

The one thing I feel this doesn't do a good enough job of addressing though is 'The Council'. I have respect for both factions but I think in some ways that alliance has stifled the criminal scene in this community as much as the lack of script updates have. You only need to look through the last three official faction wars (WCA and Rooks and Wanted) to see the pattern. All these factions pile on one faction and it's no longer a war, it's a slaughter. That faction dies off and we wait three months for the next one.

I want to see WCA against Zetas, with some big stakes for the winner/loser. It's about time someone broke the status quo and I genuinely believe that WCA would give the Zetas enough problems to make this interesting enough to watch.

I saw the original ending to this current movie when Wanted were forced out of the server and then I saw the sequel when Rooks were forced out. This current gang war is Expendables 3, I know how it plays out and as a neutral it's boring.

[Copes]

Faction management shouldn't force a conclusion. 

At no point should a faction with valid reason and an end-goal they'll continue to fight towards through thick and thin be told "no, fuck off the war is over" OOCly.

This is roleplay, not a boxing match with judges and referees. 

I've been on both sides of the coin in terms of war and while I believe certain aspects of this new ruleset spices things up, this key point in particular is a step in the wrong direction.

[krokan]

This update absolutely stifles the freedom around faction wars and needs serious revising or clarification.