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Court System

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On 1/10/2020 at 9:03 PM, CallumMontie said:

+1 overall, this would really assist flush out the current arrest system for criminals, pd and doc adding much more depth.

I'd like to see some points added on how each side of the coins has direct interactions and the pros/cons for both, as this should not be a one sided system.

Really impressive post.

 

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23 minutes ago, ProblyStoned said:

+1
Though too many steps can make it complicated, we should have some sort of system where we are able to defend ourselves against the officers word. Unfortunately, the police force is rather immature and doesn't take the job that seriously, so there are times where they abuse their power. I would like some sort of way of defending myself without having to go through IA, which is essentially cops protecting cops. I almost feel as though IA needs to be its own separate branch, far away from the police force. This would allow players to disassociate from the police and make fair and just calls on reports. Cops shouldn't be policing each other, they rarely do a good job of it.

May be a Gov branch? That is separate from PD and SD

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+1, but i wouldnt multiply the charges. 

Just let the Penal code SHOW the minimum and maximum jail time/fine for a certain crime and a JUDGE can decide based on different things such as

- Circumstances (How and why did he commit that crime)

- Previous offenses ? (Did he commit any other crime in the past?) 

etc. 

The lawyer job would come in handy as stated above since it could: 

- Lower the sentence (lower jail time/fine)

- Remove the sentence completely

All of that highly depends on the crime and how experienced the lawyer is in presenting his case. 

Let me give you a good example of real life in which IMMEDIATE DANGER nullifies charges (so to speak). Someone is chasing you with a knife/gun whatever and you have to steal a bike/car to get away. Is it a crime? Yes, its theft, but was the crime committed to preserve life ? Yes. That's what i mean about circumstances. In my country this would nullify the jail time and would only add a fine if the car was damaged in the process or things like that. If the car was returned undamaged, the person that stole it to save his own life would NOT EVEN BE ADDED IN THE SYSTEM (we've got a "system"in which you get added if you commit a serious crime such as theft, i assume most countries have this) so it would not count as a previous offense.

Now let me give you another example in which the charges would NOT get nullified. Same situation, but in this case the player just wants to get away from someone that is shouting/annoying. Is it life threatening? Hell no -> crime committed -> jail time/fine/offense registered. 

It will all come down to the judge eventually, but it does a LOT to roleplaying since you can actually get a  good defense, evidence can be presented and police abuse can be "fixed" before it damages things further.

 

I actually wanted to create this suggestion myself (i graduated law school, but i'm a programmer so i really wanted to play as a lawyer/judge while roleplaying, love the irony), but gave it a search first. 

So once again, +1.

 

EDIT: FYI i'm not really a new player. Seems like this is my first post, but whatever. I played around a year ago and quit the game for a while so i just got back.

Edited by Taerarenai
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100% plus 1 a cop shouldn't be able to stack charges on you because you talked shit to them. With this update not only would it expand RP for everyone involved it would give seasoned criminals more fun and possibilities with explaining their case. The multiplied charge time is a little ridiculous with real crimes already costing you 1-6 hours+ but that can be worked out. It would make cops take placing charges serious and would require proof and evidence and if a cop is caught lying/messing up too many charges or cases they should be punished by higher ups.

 

I dont see how anyone on either Crim or Legal side could disagree with this suggestion as it would make more fun for everyone involved rather then cops just slapping charges on someone and not getting anything out of them sitting in jail for x amount of time they can actually prove their case and have fun with it. Where on the other side crims can try to get out of crms or prove themselves innocent and make it a fun process. This an RP server things should be close to realistic but at the same time we should all be able to have fun with it rather then having a play to win mentality where cops actually get excited for sending someone to jail rather then enjoying the RP that was given to them up to the arrest. This idea can expand on that for all parties involved.

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1 hour ago, mikebumbum said:

100% plus 1 a cop shouldn't be able to stack charges on you because you talked shit to them. With this update not only would it expand RP for everyone involved it would give seasoned criminals more fun and possibilities with explaining their case. The multiplied charge time is a little ridiculous with real crimes already costing you 1-6 hours+ but that can be worked out. It would make cops take placing charges serious and would require proof and evidence and if a cop is caught lying/messing up too many charges or cases they should be punished by higher ups.

 

I dont see how anyone on either Crim or Legal side could disagree with this suggestion as it would make more fun for everyone involved rather then cops just slapping charges on someone and not getting anything out of them sitting in jail for x amount of time they can actually prove their case and have fun with it. Where on the other side crims can try to get out of crms or prove themselves innocent and make it a fun process. This an RP server things should be close to realistic but at the same time we should all be able to have fun with it rather then having a play to win mentality where cops actually get excited for sending someone to jail rather then enjoying the RP that was given to them up to the arrest. This idea can expand on that for all parties involved.

There are a tons of issues with a system like this. Cops being harsher with you after talking shit is a realistic aspect of the game, not something to look down upon.

The vast majority of people arrested in the server are people literally getting caught in the act. I don't see what reasonable trials we could have until we have more support for investigative RP, such as wiretaps, listening devices and other long term investigative means are implemented and further developed to be useful on a day to day basis.

If an officer witnesses you shooting up someone, you say you wanna go to court, now we get 30+ people involved in RP for a couple of hours, just to send you to prison for 2 hours? For this to be even close to realistic, you'd have to increase prison sentences (10x+), if found guilty by trial. "why? can't we just do it for the RP?", sure, if we had a population of 400 million on the server, we could, but we probably have more criminals than a small state in the US, and if every single one of them demands a trial when they're arrested, it'll grind the system to a stand-still. We don't have the manpower to do 20 trials a day. It would have to be an extraordinary event, just like they are in real life.

In the United States, plea bargaining is the most common way people end up in prison, not trial. Those trials you see on shows are the minority. 94% of all federal cases were solved with a plea bargain by 2001. The reason for that is because if you plea, you get time off your sentence, earlier probation, possibility of probation and so on. However, on the server, prison time is meaningless, I've had people say "I'd rather do 9 hours for shooting you than surrender my AK". When was the last time someone acted on that in real life? Would that same person say the same thing, if, with their death their character was locked away forever? Probably not, but here we are.

What if the person had to instead face a sentence of 90 hours, if they shot. They could take a plea and make it into 20 hours, or face trial for the full 90 hours. That's a realistic system. That's something that would be fair. However, a good amount of people already consider a 4 hour sentence "an OOC punishment". 

The idea of a court system on an RP server isn't new, and some SAMP servers were doing it a long time ago, however, in ALL of those servers that I've ever witnessed, the prison times were much higher, and if you asked to go to trial, you would face a harsh increase in sentence, if found guilty. Such a system is a basic requirement to make sure that not every case goes to trial, because, as explained, that would break the system on day 1.

Then there's metagaming concerns. Will we have a jury system? If so, where are we drawing the jury pool from? 99% of people on the server are criminal, one way or another. Even mechanics have friends in gangs. We don't have a pool of people that would truly be unbiased. This is before we even consider stuff like alternate character mixing considerations.

Just to be clear, I'm not even necessarily stating that people would be acting in bad faith, however, there's a reason why a boss isn't allowed to date an employee within most companies; this other person has power over me. Let's say that I'm John Doe and I have a character in the Red Gang, I've also got a legal alt that was called to be a juror in a case against a leadership figure in the Red Gang. Now, according to proper RP, I should separate those two, and make the decision that makes sense for my character, however, the other person has real power over me in my other character, can I know for sure that he'll be acting in the same good faith? What if he takes my decision personally? Next time I get passed up for promotion, even if he didn't think about it, will I be stuck wondering if that was retribution?

This is all before even considering people helping their OOC friends, which has been an issue multiple times in the past, with even pettier things.

Then there's the issues of evidence. What is enough evidence for a court of law? Most likely an officer's testimony will sway a jury, but it's not definitive. Real cops started wearing body cameras in quite a few cities, however, in the context of the game, it's unrealistic to ask people to ask people to record every single interaction (as every single interaction could go to trial). People would quickly run out of storage space. At least when you get reported for an OOC rule break, you get asked to save POV for a report. Would you have to get asked to save POV for a trial?

There is currently no script support for DNA, lifting fingerprints off of anything other than firearms, and gloves are worn by 99% of criminals, which is another unrealistic aspect, combined with masks being worn by more people during normal city life than people wear them in real-life during a pandemic. All of those NonRP factors contribute to an unrealistic court experience. OJ wore gloves, Ted Bundy wore gloves and a mask. Go by the city bank and see how many people are masked with gloves on.

Just to be clear, this isn't an attack on the suggestion, I feel that a court system, could work, but it would require massive changes, a good amount of work (including major script support), and I think that the most fair result will not be well received by people that mostly see it as a way to "stop false charges", when in reality, most charges would hold up in a court, and prison times would go up drastically. This a retort to Mike's point "I don't see how anyone can disagree". There's a lot of issues that weren't addressed, and even more issues that I haven't even thought of, that might only become apparent once the system is live. Are problems or work required a reason not to do something? No, but they are a reason to be more conservative, consider all the repercussions before jumping on a hype train for freedom.

 

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+/- on this.

+ Fun RP to be had
+ More job support for civilians
+ Great way to mitigate losses when false charges are placed on you

- As others have stated, will take a LOT of manpower
- Would require a rework of current sentence times, as currently anything more than 4hrs IS an OOC punishment. Can you imagine getting stuck in jail for 27 irl hours if your sentence was originally 9hr and you lost a case? imo, fix current prison times before even touching this.
- A lot of people's motivations for supporting this are to reduce the frequency of bad charge placement or unnecessary charge stacking and I just feel that there's a better solution that's also been mentioned in this thread - ICly revamp the IA process for police. If police are actually worried about the consequences of them fucking up charges or wrongfully arresting someone, I guarantee the frequency of these wrongful scenarios diminish. Find a motivation for your character to get involved in the legal work involved in changing such a system and start pushing for it if you really want to see a change - it's what I'm doing.

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The biggest flaw as far as i can see for a court system is time.  The amount of time it would take to setup and to do the roleplay, there are very few instances where it would make it worthwhile. The same argument can be made for Lawyer RP.

There would need to be changes to the amount of prison time offences get you and to be honest, that in itself is already a minefield of a topic.

That being said, if there were server events involving court rp, I could perhaps see it. Like PD trying to put a faction boss in jail for a long time and there being a prosecution and defence with a judge.

Ultimately though, who do you get to be the judge? Pretty much everyone that is high up in the admin team is in law enforcement so there would be the accusations that it's cop biased. You could get someone that has significant legal experience but for most of us, the extent of our knowledge about the law is what we've seen in movies or on TV.

Personally, I think it'd be dope but this ain't the server for it and I don't think it ever would be.

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I believe if we have enough cops in the city that it wouldn't really affect their police operations elsewhere should they get tied down in court case, this would be amazing for RP opportunities this server needs more in the way of legal jobs and you could have lawyers, security staff, bailiff, not to overload the system only crimes of certain severity should only be looked into.

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