COMPLETELY delete public lab tables and chop shops.

[Demonmit1]

OK. Yes, the title says that, and I'm actually suggesting that. Yes, this is going to be controversial, but hear me out.

Public labs, tables, and chop shops should be entirely deleted. Why? Public labs create a stale crim gameplay loop with limited options and actively promote poor RP standards.

• A vast majority of crims have a similar mentality.
  • Log on, gather materials to cook, and cook at an open lab, holding it with many people or hoping not to get robbed.
  • Log on, grab guns and your friends, and go to the public lab locations to PVP with people

From my understanding, one of FM 2.0's goals was to provoke more RP with more and more minor factions and to discourage/reduce the "clapper" mentality. As long as public labs exist as they do today, effectively a "red zone" for PVP, the "clapper" mentality will be the dominant way crime players play. Honestly, ask yourself, when was the last time you've seen good RP within a public lab? It's few and far between, if any.

What do we replace it with?

• Allow players to place drug tables anywhere on the map, similar to how private chops currently work.
  • Without "public" labs with free tables to cook on, official factions will have to build their own "public" labs to cook, chop, and defend.
  • With no "public" labs with free tables or chop shops, this will eliminate metagaming issues with "new" players rolling labs, LSPD / SD camping public lab locations, and clapper crews from rolling through each active lab for hours nonRP robbing anyone they find for the fun of it. Law enforcement will now have actual RP reasons to seek out and find lab locations built by criminal players, not having to play this game and dance of not remembering locations as public labs.
  • With no "public" labs with free tables on, solo players and new groups would be forced to interact by creating alliances or robbing official factions to be able to cook or chop.
• How would this encourage better roleplay? 
  • Set up the cooking/chopping script to provide a bonus/boost if the tables or chop are placed within your faction's controlled territory.
    • Turf wars will become real, as owning specific parts of the city with turf would provide an actual advantage to cooking and chopping. Chopping or cooking hidden deep in the mountains or some backwoods area would still be viable, but the bonus for setting up in a controlled territory should entice people to cook and chop in more risky locations, giving a risk vs. reward boost.
      • For example, why do OTF, your typical gangsters, not spend much time at O-block and are constantly in labs? Would it not make sense for OTF to be on OTF territory, patrolling, protecting, and working on it? Public labs diminish realism and RP by pushing people outside their territories to roll public labs.
      • Obviously, I'm just using OTF as an example, but this can apply to every official faction, rooks, ESM, lost, etc. Why is ESM in Chiliad holding a lab? Would it not make sense for them to have their own lab they protect on the east side of LS?
      • This would actually make territories make sense, and valuable, encourage factions to be in their RPly set locations, and encourage more interaction across the map beyond labs and burgershot. LEOs would have a reason to patrol more areas and be spread out further across the city rather than bunched up along San Andreas Ave and the freeway.
      • what would be a viable bonus/boost? increased output / decreased cook time would be two reasonable options. if you're inside your territory with the table, cooking gives 2x output, or 1/2 the cooking time. obviously this might be too OP and would need to be balanced, but would give an idea of what could be changed to heavily encourage setting up labs within faction owned territory.
• Prebuilt "public" lab location buildings and structures would not be deleted.
  • The prebuilt "public" lab locations would still be there and accessible, allowing players and groups to build their tables and chops inside of them, making use of these custom locations that have already been built. If the group has control over the territory of the location, they would get a bonus for keeping that territory. Many of the locations are built to be a fortress, easy to defend, and hard to attack, so it would make sense that players could and likely would still use these locations as a trade-off for having lower bonuses from not controlling the territory or having a high degradation for having a separated territory, that other factions would fight turf wars over to own the territory.

People HATED the concept of FM 2.0 and feared that it would kill the server as factions that got too many accepted player reports wouldn't be able to be a faction anymore. Most everyone would now agree that FM 2.0 was a success and great for the server overall. The removal of public labs/chops is a similar big thing that would benefit the server and player interaction. Still, there will be people who will fight against a change like this as it would ruin their way of playing on the server, which so many people actively complain about and dislike. Removal of public labs would drastically reduce Deathmatching, Metagaming, and nonRP reports that are entirely caused by public labs.
 

[SaltyPoiosn]

+1

[AnakinB]

yeah if im understanding this right this is actually lowkey fire 

[astrx]

I honestly kinda fuck with this idea. One main issue I have is with some of the pre-built lab locations such as Cove. This is a really nice area that people used to go chill at and have a good time with friends, now there is just a big ugly structure there and disallows people from using it as a place to be able to go to. Allow players to place tables and plant weed where ever.

The only downside I see to this is, it's somewhat constitutes as "private labs", where players can find an extremely far away location and just cook with a small chance of being found and getting more drugs and money without interaction. Other than that, this idea is great.

[Demonmit1]

10 minutes ago, Astrx said:

The only downside I see to this is, it's somewhat constitutes as "private labs", where players can find an extremely far away location and just cook with a small chance of being found and getting more drugs and money without interaction. Other than that, this idea is great.

i think that if a group of players are able to organize the logistics of this, packing up everything they need to cook, tables, ingredients, transport it all to a remote location, set up, cook, and keep bringing in more material and taking out product to sell without getting caught, more power to them.

maybe some weights of items can be modified so its harder to do this with few vehicles at scale?

Thats also why i recommended giving a bonus to cooking within your own territory. encouraging people not to do what you said would be a downside. it still gives people the option to chose though, which is whats important!

Edited November 14, 2024 by Demonmit1

[SaltyPoiosn]

Quote

The only downside I see to this is, it's somewhat constitutes as "private labs", where players can find an extremely far away location and just cook with a small chance of being found and getting more drugs and money without interaction. Other than that, this idea is great.

I do agree, this would actually be the only downside in my opinion. However i think the idea of making the process of cooking longer and make it so you have to maintain your cook would be an easy fix. However if you are a faction and you cook in your own territory you would have benifits of faster cook times. Risk vs Reward.

[jason]

I don't see why public ones should be removed to accommodate this. Public areas allow newer people to get started. That being said, placing anywhere outside would be nice.

[Teenyinnit]

huge +1, I'd love to have a Shadows lab instead of the Poor RP of constantly being robbed

[Quietthecutie]

This is a wild and interesting idea and I genuinely don't know if I'm +/- at this time. what I do know is It would be probably the biggest rework the server has ever seen. 

We are talking about scrapping a mechanic and gameplay loop that has been such a core part of the crim roleplay experience for so long, and has so many rules and guidelines around it, in favour of something totally different, which would probably require a completely different ruleset to be viable which everyone would have to relearn.

A massive undertaking, not just for devs but for everyone whos characters are involved in the lab experience. Staff, small time crims, large gangs, LEOs, MD etc so much would have to change and so many people would need to get on board to make this happen, and even then it would be a total clusterfuck for at least 6 months after implementation.

I gotta wonder if at this stage in the servers lifespan if its even viable. it would probably make profitable cooking under the radar a hell of a lot easier. the market could be flooded with drugs and the economy could balloon.

As is well mentioned its perfectly possible that large gangs just pick a few secluded properties in their territory which are  covered from air and easily hidden and just spam tables there to take us back to a pseudo private lab scenario. the fact that you could now just make your own drug labs would definitely see a marked drop in inter gang conflict as drug cooking locations would no longer be finite, worth fighting over and it would be in most peoples financial interest to just live and let live.

All that said, I can see the positives. Labs are stale, clappers are rife, the little guy gets the shaft. weirdly I think one of the biggest parties to benefit from this would be LEOs. as labs would no longer be at fixed locations, they would lose their protected status as areas cops cannot go without solid reasoning and authorisation. Narcotics investigators and detectives would have free reign to be much more invasive in their undercover investigations, which would generate more raids, more warrants executed, more everything. Helicopters with thermals would be a big winner for this as well, as a lab in the middle of a forest or on the side of a mountain might be hard for other gangs to find but it would be a cakewalk for air. 

So yeah despite the wall of text....I genuinely dont know if this is a good or bad idea. theres plenty of points for both.... bloody interesting tho....

Edited November 14, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[alexalex303]

This is probably the first time I agree with you, but I do not think removing the locations is realistic (i.e. will get implemented not realism argument) because of the amount of work that got put into all of the current private labs. 

I think the most achievable compromise is to allow placement everywhere while lowering the number of public labs active in rotation.

[Demonmit1]

51 minutes ago, Quietthecutie said:

weirdly I think one of the biggest parties to benefit from this would be LEOs.

EXACTLY! I think a change like this would drastically change the OOC conversation from, This cop metagamed the location, all cops do is camp labs, its nonRP, to, I as a crim building a private lab could have done this better next time, we could have tried this other location, we could have been more careful moving in and out with our cars, etc etc.

  

52 minutes ago, Quietthecutie said:

a marked drop in inter gang conflict as drug cooking locations would no longer be finite, worth fighting over and it would be in most peoples financial interest to just live and let live.

now, I dont see this as a bad thing. gangs would have to have an actual reason to attack a rival gang beyond petty beef over PVP in red zone public labs. Gangs would have a real reason to have turf wars, fighting over the best spots to set up a lab. A private lab would be a juicy target for a rival gang to raid and steal. 

I dont think this would overall reduce conflict, but it would drastically increase valid reasons behind conflict beyond just "he was in public lab, so i robbed and shot him"

 

Edited November 14, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Demonmit1]

2 hours ago, jason said:

I don't see why public ones should be removed to accommodate this. Public areas allow newer people to get started.

New players shouldn't be accommodated by allowing them instant access to free drug cooking or chopping. removing that access would enforce a few things and encourage a few others.

• this can be compensated by lowering the import costs of a chopshop and drug tables, so its less of a massive investment to set one up for a new player, while still promoting player to player interaction and sales, rather than letting players entirely avoid interacting with one another, stealing a NPC car, going to a public chop, selling to NPC buyer. etc

"new" players that seem to know a lot about the server, quickly get a gun, and go roll labs will no longer be a thing or have a vastly more difficult time doing so.

genuine new players also shouldnt be thrown right into the thick of things being able to cook and chop wildly easily while still having the new player tag.

It would encourage legitimate new players to seek out interaction with more established players, working for, buying from, or stealing from small groups and official factions, creating more dynamic player interaction for a new player, rather than the current stale crim gameplay loop of rolling static public labs.

 

 

22 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

I do not think removing the locations is realistic (i.e. will get implemented not realism argument) because of the amount of work that got put into all of the current private labs. 

so in the main post i made a part that explained what would become of the current public labs. basically, they would still exists, the tables just would no longer be there, and the chops would be deleted. many of these public labs are custom assets built for the server, and should still be used. being able to place tables anywhere would allow players and gangs to keep using them, as some of them are well liked due to how easy they are to defend. several are within controllable territories, so factions would have an incentive to control the territory to gain a stronghold of a lab to cook in with the bonuses while easily being able to defend the location better than a random hidden spot on the map.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Quietthecutie]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

This is probably the first time I agree with you, but I do not think removing the locations is realistic (i.e. will get implemented not realism argument) because of the amount of work that got put into all of the current private labs. 

This was in part what I was referencing in my yellow text above, the fact that at this stage in the servers cycle, we have sorta already chosen our drug lab gameplay, which has proven to be (for better and worse) wildly popular with a significant part of the playerbase. scrapping it now, after all the development etc...dosent make sense from a development perspective. even if you leave them as is, or leave them as shells that could still be used with private tables you bring yourself, it would still see a massive reduction in their use and thus render most of the effort that went into making them (remember that was a whopper of an update) pointless.

Its been what, a year since lab rotation was implemented? not even? i cant imagine the developers have any motivation or inclination to revisit this mechanic again anytime soon. there is only so many times you can reinvent the wheel before you just have to accept that your slightly wonky one will have to do.

 

[Pumpkin]

+1

i actually love this idea if its done exactly as its described and from my understanding these new public labs would still have a purpose as is already been previously said;

Gangs will use those labs but place their own tables in it and use the structure the devs worked hard on in a way where its more of a high defense to cooking and specifically if they are in your turf area this is a high risk high reward situation with the high reward being high defence and fast cook time as within turf and also high risk as its a well known lab area that other gangs will want to contest and claim it as their turf

i dont think it will get rid of the pvp mentality but i think it will condense it to those strongholds and those that frankly dont want that mentality means they have another option where they could make it more rp based secret flyers sent out to non affiliated crims that for a certain price they can gain entry to a gangs hidden cook place with a array of tables thats made to your need

Aswell as it having a improvement on crim on crim rp, i feel like it would improve relationships between crims and LEOs. Crims blaming LEOs for camping when the lab gets raided, LEOs trying to gather all their evidence for yet another report,it’s tiresome. Although LEOs could simply just go undercover and follow you to this makeshift  lab or knowing ya a gang member constantly get traffic stopped and vehicle searched i feel like theres ways around it that would mean getting a lil bit creative, using the new license plates update for example taking someone who isnt gang affiliated license plate and putting it on your own carand the crim  going undercover themself being one of then ideas 

 

 

Overall love this idea +1

 

 

[Eliza]

Bit of a +1 and -1 from me.

 

I’ll just echo what jason said.

5 hours ago, jason said:

Public areas allow newer people to get started. That being said, placing anywhere outside would be nice.

 
A good compromise would be to just let people place tables anywhere rather than outright removing labs.

[Chilo]

While I like the idea of being able to place drug tables anywhere on the map, I don’t think that the public labs should be removed as it would become difficult for new players getting into criminal RP to cook and those who may not have the ability to have the tables Imported for them.

[Jordan]

Major +1 I play crim mainly, aswell as being a faction leader I feel as if I have a lot of insight on this particular subject. Ive been gunning for a labs rework forever. Nothing against people who are on their grind but generally even if you disagree with what this post is proposing there is no denying these labs are a nest for PVP mentality.

I do think private labs could benefit RP, as Astrx said however, I do foresee this being a double edged sword players undoubtedly will abuse this and find a secret spot to cook at. I have no big ideas that would immediately counter it but hopefully to start the conversation: Perhaps a rule implementation? Realistically criminals would not make a lab on an island that is rply ruled by the Cartel i.E Cayo. Aswell as a random remote island that requires them to swim through the tides to get to.

Other than that, another point ive seen that I agree with is that this does put LEOs at an advantage. No shade against GND or Gang Unit, I love them and have had really good RP with them. But thats not to say its ALL good RP. LEOs have a lot of power in the server, and I understand we're always working at a good balance. However if we make it to where it gives a boost to cook in your own territory GND aswell as Gang Unit have no rp reason NOT TO patrol turf run by a specific gang.

In this example i'll use Waterfelons for instance. If GND is around they might think to check Waterfelon turf and because there is no rule against it since rply this is their job, its only a matter of time before they find out where we're camped up cooking. This in turn makes it VERY easy for LEOs to find private cooks, this would kind of hurt the progress of smaller gangs with little to no turf I fear.

[sakkama]

Huge +1
I believe the current number of labs (+30) should be reduced, as many are placed in unrealistic locations, and we should only keep the necessary and realistic ones such as Chiliad, Northlab, Sealab and Braddocks. These labs should always remain active to provide new players and solos a fair opportunity to cook and participate as a crim.
Also by reducing the price of tables and allowing access to them (at tier 4+ for example), any faction with connections could set up a lab at their territory.
This would bring more RP to everyone, especially for PD, as they could engage on private labs, this also help reduce the rule breaking and pvping on the server.

[Demonmit1]

32 minutes ago, Jordan said:

In this example i'll use Waterfelons for instance. If GND is around they might think to check Waterfelon turf and because there is no rule against it since rply this is their job, its only a matter of time before they find out where we're camped up cooking. This in turn makes it VERY easy for LEOs to find private cooks, this would kind of hurt the progress of smaller gangs with little to no turf I fear.

This is where turf upkeep system and turf wars will come into play. 

A gang can currently take an unconnected turf anywhere on the map, but at a large decay rate across their turfs. This would be how gangs could effectively get the turf boost if they are willing to pay the extra decay on the rest of their turfs.

Gangs would then fight over these valuable turfs for who can hold them the longest to get the bonus, while defending a lab

 

This gives factions three main options:

1. Cook in the middle of nowhere. Safe and secure, but no boost for being on your own turf

2. Cook on your own turf. More risk of being caught, but more reward.

3. Capture a disconnected turf for the best cook spots. Conflict with other gangs over the turf, extra cost in rep across all your claimed turfs for having overextended and taken an unconnected turf, and depletion of stocked up assets to claim the turf to cook, while risking losing the turf in the middle of the cook if another faction drops enough on the dealer.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Normal]

Yo huge +1 this is fire 

[Cup]

+1 to this conversation for being so positive and constructive.

 

To the actual idea I would say i like the general idea but i would be against removing all the the old static labs for the reasons stated above by others. (some of them could go sure but not all of them)

[Demonmit1]

10 hours ago, DontSniffSugar said:

I’ll just echo what jason said.

10 hours ago, Chilo said:

it would become difficult for new players getting into criminal RP to cook and those who may not have the ability to have the tables Imported for them.

10 hours ago, sakkama said:

These labs should always remain active to provide new players and solos a fair opportunity to cook and participate as a crim.

5 hours ago, Cup said:

i would be against removing all the the old static labs for the reasons stated above by others.

I would argue new players shouldn't be immediately diving into free drug cooking and operating a free chop shop. with the complete removal of free tables and chops, players would be forced to interact with one another, creating more RP. You want to cook and cant get tables? pay a faction to use their tables, buy tables from a faction you've created positive relationships worth, or seek out a built lab and rob it for yourself.

The point of this is that as a new player on the server, theres a clear line of progression to follow. you can do half chops, but if you want to make more money and get a full chop, you have to work up to it. drug cooking is the most profitable, so you have to work to find a way to aquire tables, build relationships, or fight people for them.

maybe you meet a guy at burgershot that has experience robbing labs, and would sell you some tables for a higher price than normal, but its a place to start. maybe you encounter an organization and make a deal that you'll work for them for a certain amount of time, or bring them a certain amount of product in exchange for being able to buy some tables or a chop to start making more money. until then, they have plenty of options for petty crimes, robbing ATMs, doing half chops, or more serious stuff like stores, banks, and houses. or they can spend their time working at freelance or faction jobs to generate income to afford investing into a private lab or chop.

all of this is player to player interaction,  player to player sales, and promoting actual in depth RP, far beyond anything thats currently happening with PVP zone labs we currently have. there is no RP that happens at labs, you rob people or you get robbed, thats it.

leave all of the custom areas that are already pre-built for labs, just make it so tables cant spawn there anymore, and delete the free chops that are set up for anyone to use. simple

Edited November 15, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Ritchie Stones]

I been saying this for years upfront, there is no meaningfull RP in public labs, at least with private labs you where motivated to keep connections and it created meaningfull bonds with people, now everyone is kinda on their own, the highest form of RP now is to dip from a lab hoping to scrab some profit, 

the server is falling appart in terms of connecting with eachother, its getting more lonely by the months

[GoldieShort]

+1 on making tables placeable (nearly) anywhere.
on the fence about removing public ones.

I really love this idea of having the option to place them anywhere. place them in your own turf and get a speed bonus or something? Would be a HUGE + and as stated by someone else "It wont reduce the fighting but would give better reasoning for it" I also think this could be a way to have more rp scenarios and possibilities between gangs.

I know a lot of work went into the new public locations and so far, a lot of them are amazing! I dont think they should be removed as it would remove the chances for newer players to start cooking etc. If we reduce the amount of labs then it becomes easyer again for the "rob hungry" players to harass said newer players.
I think 1 of the reasons why so many labs have been added is to reduce the "rolling labs" mentality?

On the other hand, if public labs would be deleted, it would force people to use this system, give more reasons to actually join a crim faction or an unaffiliated could barter with a gang to set up in their territory for a small fee etc.. it creates more rp oppurtunities yet again.

So yeah. on the fence about removing labs but making tables placeable would be a HUGE ++++

If we would compare it to the current system and cooking speed etc.
An example for cooking speed could be:
Public labs x1 
Private labs x0.6
Private labs in home territory x1.2
And maybe have a bit of a speed boost for chops in home territory aswell.

Edited November 15, 2024 by GoldieShort

[jdotmo]

+1 I do think there has to be some stipulations put around where you can place a drug table in server. For example, I have seen some other servers where you require an RV to be close to where the tables are. I believe this is a good option, because it allows private cooks to be found a bit easier.