Get some real repercussions for LEOs

[addybeta]

I am making this suggestion because as it is now, this server has a lot of consequences for crims and none for LEOs. What I mean by this is that if a criminal makes an IC error, they might face prison sentences, fines and might even get raided. All of these are valid consequences and I don't have anything against that. My only wish is for it to be balanced with some type of valid repercussions from the LEO side as well.

For example, if an officer, makes an IC mistake, they might get a warning, be suspended, or at worst discharged. This might seem bad, but not when it is so easy to OOCly transfer back into the department and keep on going as if nothing ever happened, just with a different name. This makes it so that, cops can make all the mistakes they want, and the worst that can happen is that they get discharged and just transfer back on another character. Hopefully, I am not the only one who sees the problem with this.

Edited January 3 by addybeta

[Richie194]

I get what point you're trying to make, its good that its mentioned as crims grind every day where its 80% grinding and 20% rp. Crims lose everything hence why we have to constantly grind and grind and grind for money. PD cant lose their gear, their uniforms, they get new cars in a matter of seconds, weapons they cant lose.

ONLY issue is, if you try to suggest a way for PD to get more repercussions, it will most likely be halted by a lot of LEO mains. Crims (me included) just have to suck up the fact its a grind every day rather than rp every day, especially with the new nerfs to chop parts crims dont gain much and lose everything. Its the thought that counts tho.

[Oli]

Warnings, suspension and discharging is pretty bad, probably worse than you going to jail and losing 100k worth of stuff.

I too disagree with how some LEOs handle some stuff, but most of the time its entirely IC and should be handled using IC means, as long as there's no rulebreaks that occur during the interaction.

You mentioned they can just make a new character and join back, but so can you? Just create a new character then. LEO players also buy assets, RP with people and make relations and that, so if someone is a PD command or smth and he gets discharged, it'll 100% hurt his character, he wont just create another character and ignore all his character's story, past and relations.

[Ash]

As a former faction leader (DOC) I see absolutely nothing wrong with OOC reinstatements. When we became less strict in allowing people to ooc reinstate it allowed for people to be more creative with their characters and take risks and do things they wouldn’t have done. (E.g @Wolokai142 upscaling their anger over time to the point of breaking the force matrix and blasting the fuck out of an inmate, reloading, and blasting more creating a great storyline and major IC consequences. Then OOC reinstating later on and losing years of that ic progression with the only real benifits being going up a few ranks and skipping them with prior experience)

Without it people will play cookie cutter guards who did nothing wrong ever at risk of being completely reset and losing everything in terms of months or even years of progress in the faction. With ooc reinstatement it means people can craft storylines and actually face serious IC realistic consequences, whilst not losing so much ooc time. 
 

Even with that being said, ooc reibstatements aren’t just a free “nothing happens to me”, you lose all relationships and history and memories that your previous character had.

I don’t have much to weigh in on other consequences you might want to see, but I think the point about ooc reinstatements is rather inaccurate and doesn’t represent most scenarios it’s happened. And it definitely doesn’t happen so frequently to the point it’s abused by people providing poor rp and just reinstating as if nothing happened). A criminal majorly fucks up they lose some assets and get hours jail time, an LEO majorly fucks up and basically changes the entire course of their character. 

Edited January 3 by Ash

[Requiem]

The OP didn't mention what the actual suggestion is. You say that LEOs need more repercussions, but did not say what those should be. This feels more like a discussion topic rather than a suggestion. 

As Ash mentions above, I believe the existing repercussions for an LEO having to OOC reinstate can be quite impactful. 

I would ask @addybeta, even if what you were saying was true, regarding little to no repercussions for LEOs, why does that matter so much to you, and why does it make sense to compare that to criminal characters? When you make your character, and choose to either be legal or illegal with that character, you assume and accept all the consequences and choices that go along with that decision. I don't think it makes sense to compare the two. And if you do want to compare them, why does it make sense to say, Example A loses and is at a disadvantage, but Example B doesn't lose nearly as much. Suggested solution: Make Example B lose way more stuff to make it fair! Instead of this, why not suggest Example A lose less rather than trying to make Example B more miserable...

[jdotmo]

I think a more of a semi automatic suspension system if LEO factions would be a cool thing. If a cop unlawfully shoots someone and it gets brought to court he can be suspended from clocking in for 24 hours. You can RP the suspension Sort of like how the license suspension is currently. That way applying to be reinstated can be far more drastic measures and sort of like you were fired and or retired. 
 

This might be copium for cops to feel the pain of 24hr suspension lol 

[Ash]

They can already be suspended? What?

[Requiem]

5 minutes ago, jdotmo said:

I think a more of a semi automatic suspension system if LEO factions would be a cool thing. If a cop unlawfully shoots someone and it gets brought to court he can be suspended from clocking in for 24 hours. You can RP the suspension Sort of like how the license suspension is currently. That way applying to be reinstated can be far more drastic measures and sort of like you were fired and or retired. 
 

This might be copium for cops to feel the pain of 24hr suspension lol 

This is already a thing. Cases submitted through IA can easily, and commonly do, lead to officer suspensions for misconduct where they are not allowed to clock on duty for x period of time, sometimes 24 hours, sometimes much more. 

[Ash]

3 hours ago, addybeta said:

or at worst discharged

I also feel like this is downplaying it a fair bit, because being discharged ends months or years of progress, and likely disallows them from joining similar factions. And since we’re making comparisons of LEO and criminals, you pretty much never see someone being kicked from those factions compared to the frequency you do in legal factions, and worst case scenario you can probably join another one or start your own even.

And that’s fine.

It shouldn’t be the same for both sides as they’re completely different. 

[Bala]

If I did something, in-character, to the point where I had to be fired from the PD after almost five years, the repercussion of that is I'd never be able to have Dezzy Bala as a cop again.
I have to make a new character and then constantly have the awkwardness of sounding exactly like Dezzy on that character for the rest of my time in that faction.

Am I, Bala, supposed to be punished out of character for making an in-character mistake as well? I've been in the same faction for almost five years, am I supposed to go from being one of the leaders of the faction to a new Cadet? End of the day, while my character carried out actions in-character, there is a lot of effort out of character that goes into that.

I know the individual you are referring to and frankly, the punishment of not being able to be a cop on that character is significant enough.

That would have also applied to you, had you stayed in PD as well.

[Victor Einhart]

Being terminated from PD over criminal charges sinks that character. I think it's entirely reasonable to let someone create an entirely new character given their old one is functionally bricked over the incident if they still want to play law enforcement.

Going to jail doesn't brick your criminal character the same way. There's always a way to regain things that you lost. You cannot regain what you lose in an incident like this as law enforcement. Comparing the two is very dishonest and I'm disappointed you'd suggest that. It's inhuman.

Edited January 3 by Victor Einhart

[MrSilky]

Is this a serious topic based on the recent situation, really?

I hate to compare Cop vs Crim comparisons as there are so many different ways certain elements impact different roleplayers. But as you have decided to bring this up, let's first look at a suspension - The average suspension time is 24 hours which blocks them from clocking on duty for that entire time. This then means they cannot earn any money from their faction duty for that entire period, and these potential earnings are much higher than the usual fines a cirminal faces.

Let's look at discharges (with criminal charges) - That cop character is dead. Sure, they could turn their cop crim and carry on from there, but their position in the faction would no longer be respected both OOC and IC. From the LSPD's policy "You cannot join the faction on another character if you have turned your original LSPD character criminal". This means if they wanted to come back to PD on another character, they would have to restart everything. Even if they didn't go criminal and did an OOC transfer into their old position, all assets on their prior character are dead and all roleplay progression, relationships and knowledge also dead. If you go to jail as a criminal, you are out in an hour or two and back to what you were doing previously.

Again, I hate comparing Cop vs Crim as they are completely different roleplayers and are impacted in such different ways but to post such an ignorant suggestion (without suggesting anything) due to lack of knowledge is just destined to be perceived as shit stirring. 

[SteakHappy]

As someone with both an active crim and PD character:

No.

I would state that IC consequences on PD have the potential to be way higher than on a crim. A dishonorable discharge is quite literally character-ruining. I had one from SD and had to retire my character for like a year because no other legal faction would hire me, and there's basically no arguing it.

[Starlet_bruh]

i can see how this would make more sense situationally IC, for example in a police chase. if the criminal crashes and damages their vehicle and it cannot start its over, however the LEOs can return back to HQ and instantly grab a new car and carry on. they can also wander around with an unlimited supply of weapons, ammo, armour which are all expensive and difficult to obtain as a criminal. Finally, a police helicopter in real life is extremely expensive to run, has very limited fuel and is usually only brought out as a "last resort", however in the server it is common to see it immediately overhead on regular traffic stops, sometimes even patrolling, which i find unrealistic and it is also extremely difficult to escape from given it has lots of fuel. Overall, it seems there is very little reason for LEOs to act carefully and frugally making it difficult for criminals who need to. it would make sense to have a "budget" for LEOs to stop careless use and waste of resources such as vehicles and weapons, and lead to in-character repercussions for the whole force if people wasting them.

Edited January 3 by Starlet_bruh

[Lutherian90]

10 minutes ago, Starlet_bruh said:

i can see how this would make more sense situationally IC, for example in a police chase. if the criminal crashes and damages their vehicle and it cannot start its over, however the LEOs can return back to HQ and instantly grab a new car and carry on. they can also wander around with an unlimited supply of weapons, ammo, armour which are all expensive and difficult to obtain as a criminal. Finally, a police helicopter in real life is extremely expensive to run, has very limited fuel and is usually only brought out as a "last resort", however in the server it is common to see it immediately overhead on regular traffic stops, sometimes even patrolling, which i find unrealistic and it is also extremely difficult to escape from given it has lots of fuel. Overall, it seems there is very little reason for LEOs to act carefully and frugally making it difficult for criminals who need to. it would make sense to have a "budget" for LEOs to stop careless use and waste of resources such as vehicles and weapons, and lead to in-character repercussions for the whole force if people wasting them.

This budget part of your comment is similar to something I've been thinking up for a bit, it'd be nice to see some sort of way to push a little more realism on the LEO side of things without gimping them too much. Having to manage a daily supplies limit on the amount of vehicles, weapons, armor, etc they use would be a nice way to do that, and it would make sense as a "budgetary" constraint. I feel like this kind of system would be hard to implement initially, but once it was dialed in it would alleviate a lot of the complaints.

[addybeta]

First and foremost, the argument saying that you lose everything if you get discharged bears no weight when you can be reinstated back to your former rank, in the same divisions, people recognize you by your voice, and you hang out with the same people. The only thing you lose then is that everyone has to Alias you again. I don't think that cops care about their assets as it has no value for them because they can never use them. Relationships and knowledge can easily be obtained pretty quickly. Secondly, it is not necessary to compare crims vs cops all the time, I just did it to give an overview of the situation. I still believe that it's an easy way out to just OOCly transfer, within the next day of your discharge. 

As for what @Bala said. If Dezzy Bala makes such a big mistake, that would end up terminating him from PD after 5 years, should he lose his progress and start as a cadet again? ABSOLUTELY 100% he should. Although this is a highly unlikely situation, there should still be consequences for your actions. They are your IC actions after all and they have IC consequences. Having an OOC reinstatement just bypasses all of that. Why should it matter if you put a lot of OOC effort into building your character? Behind every character, there is a lot of OOC effort to build it. I honestly don't think I am being dishonest and inhumane.

Lastly, whenever crims take an L and complain about it in /b, (which I do not support, I don't think that is a valid way of stating your complaints.) it is always met with something along the lines of "deal with it IC". Now let's say you do deal with it IC, file an IA report and that ends up getting the cop discharged. Now you have dealt with it ICly, but that just feels like a slap in the face when you see the same person OOCly reinstating the next day, and they seemingly have lost nothing.

[Bala]

There would be consequences, I wouldn't be able to use the character I've used for the past five years and that everyone in the server that I have met knows me for. That's the consequence. Essentially, that character is dead from that point. Turning him criminal as an ex-cop makes no sense and if what I've done to get fired is bad enough I get felony charges, no is likely going to want to hire my character.

Any criminal that is worth shit in this server doesn't file internal affairs reports, neither do they wear body cameras. No self respecting criminal even entertains that thought, it's like snitching and if we're being honest, it's just an extension of the win at all costs ooc mentality. If you a petty crook or a civilian then fair enough make your complaint, make your report because that is realistic but if your character is supposed to be a serious criminal, you don't need to be anywhere near IA lmao. As a serious crim, you don't have any positive feeling about police so why would you go to the police about police?

Circling back, losing my character is bad enough. I'm not about to give up my faction leadership spot to become a new person, especially when everyone is going to remember me for Dezzy anyway lmao.

[MrSilky]

43 minutes ago, addybeta said:

Now let's say you do deal with it IC, file an IA report and that ends up getting the cop discharged. Now you have dealt with it ICly, but that just feels like a slap in the face when you see the same person OOCly reinstating the next day, and they seemingly have lost nothing.

It would only feel like a slap in the face OOC if you are going at someone IC for the OOC impact it would have on them which I trust you would never do.

[AtlasOLimbo]

My main concern from a crim perspective is that I have to deal with the consequence of their OOC corruption and what have you. False charges that result in fines and time that I have spent genuine time for. I think one offs are fine, and promote the kind of RP exploration that @Ash spoke on. But if someone can repeatedly OOC reinstate after being punished IC, what's to stop them from being blatantly corrupt again? The roleplay should be done in a matter where they're going out of their way NOT to get caught as per NRP and faction standards.

[Demonmit1]

Crim RP is very heavily asset based. cop RP isnt asset based at all.

Crims lose their assets when they lose an interaction, and it takes a couple hours to re-grind the money to be able to recoupe the costs from losing. 

Cops have no risk in assets they "lose" for the department. Crims who manage to kill a cop are not able to loot the cop as a "reward" for successfully taking down a cop.

i think there is a few ways to reasonably suggest changes to make the dynamic between cops and Crims more interesting.

Cops could be lootable. if you down/kill a cop, why is it scriptly not possible to take their weapons? that makes no sense. Cops know that if they lose, there are just going to be more cops to come win the fight eventually, and theres no risk for the cop to lose equipment, and theres no risk overall for a cop losing gear to make a crim stronger with stolen cop firearms. I understand that this is set cause the weapons are spawned in, for free, and crims would start targeting cops as loot piniata's for free guns. BUT, i think a change like this would be a positive change in Cops Vs Crim dynamic, as Crims arent just soley always trying to get away from OP cops, theres a potential reward for crims to win against cops.

BUT, to balance this, there should be a system that can either track how many weapons a cop loses, or there should be a way to "stock" firearms for LEO's, that they only have a certain amount of each firearm, restocked per week, and their command structure needs to then carefully delegate and manage supply of firearms within the faction.

another solution would be to make LEO's pay collateral for checking out vehicles, gear, and weapons. vehicles being damaged would take % off the return for checking the vehicle back in, and losing firearms to deaths or theft would make the LEO lose the collateral payment. this could help force cops to properly value their vehicles and weapons. this would also give "hardened criminals" a way to actually target specific cops, hurting their wallet, rather than making IA reports or just killing cops over and over again.

implementing these things would go a long way to force cops to value their lives and equipment more. Civilians have to pay a fair amount for legal firearms, and have to go through a lengthy process if a firearm is stolen or lost, pay fines for doing so, and re-purchase their firearms at full cost again. Crims have to grind money through criminal activity or other ways to afford weapons and equipment, why doesnt LEO's have to risk any money for vehicles, weapons, and equipment? 

anyways, more in depth post about it i just made:
 

 

Edited January 3 by Demonmit1

[Bala]

27 minutes ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

My main concern from a crim perspective is that I have to deal with the consequence of their OOC corruption and what have you. False charges that result in fines and time that I have spent genuine time for. I think one offs are fine, and promote the kind of RP exploration that @Ash spoke on. But if someone can repeatedly OOC reinstate after being punished IC, what's to stop them from being blatantly corrupt again? The roleplay should be done in a matter where they're going out of their way NOT to get caught as per NRP and faction standards.

No one is repeatedly oocly reinstating, in the cases where it has happened, either the person never fucked up again or they ended up getting the boot permanently.
We have internal corruption rules, which are OOC and anyone that is "corrupt" has to have permission for that with sufficient back story and reason for being corrupt. 

There is an important distinction between individuals that have OOC permission to be corrupt in our faction or that just do something stupid in the heat of the moment, to people who are just plain shit at being cops and go off the goop without any kind of permission. No one in PD wants to be associated with that second kind of person.

At this moment in time, there is either no one or a very, very small amount of people in PD with authorisation to be corrupt in PD. I don't have it and if I applied for it, I wouldn't get it because I don't have the RP to support it.

Trust me when I say, no one is more of a stickler for PD acting right than Kris, Pazz and Silky. Certainly not @addybeta 

Edited January 3 by Bala

[Harveyyy]

As mentioned by Bala, Ash, and the others, there are IC consequences. You lose access to your assets that you grinded for, and you lose all RP and relationships that you have done/had on your original character. 

Also, the work that you do for a faction isn't just IC, it's also OOC. The people that have been part of a faction for years and contributed positively are welcomed to go through that OOC process. Their effort, which is OOC, is considered hence why the process is OOC. At the end of the day, it is completely up to the faction leaders to decide if they want to accept that individual back into their faction or not. This shouldn't be a concern for you as it doesn't really affect you in any way. I have to say, the timing of this topic is a little odd.

To avoid having this thread going way off topic, I'll be locking and archiving it.