alexalex303

@Lola contributed to this thread and she was involved in a lot of large fights around that time, while still holding a criminal main character. It's not good to strawman the other side while claiming popular support to your side. I also disagree wholeheartedly that my view is outdated when the discussion is to bring things closer to the way things are. Who's view is going to be more relevant, people that led gangs when things were like that, or people that saw videos about it? I'm sure that a lot of people enjoyed the massive fights where they ran over their enemies, however, the server advanced so much more since then. We actually have active legal characters, and I don't mean people pretending to be legal but fulltime legal characters that throw parties, and exclusively social RP with a sprinkle of legal factions such as DCC and Weazel. I'm not saying that they didn't exist back then, but they were being suppressed, whereas now they are flourishing. All of the rules since then allowed this to happen, the public robbery rule, even the no backup rule allowed civilians to roleplay civilians without the gang scene holding the server for ransom. You might ask, how does the gang backup rule affect civilians? It's simple. When four gangs fight three gangs, all on joint frequencies, a large percentage of the time, just because of how many people are involved, law enforcement will also become involved, because the scene is so large, a lot of them will be involved, and then LSEMS. We had fights at grove st that literally had 200 people there, between LSPD, SASD, LSEMS and all of the gang members. What happened to the random civilian that hit a pole and was bleeding out? They died. What happened to the random people getting robbed? They got robbed. What happened to people in prison? They were left alone as even DOC responded. To put it simply, it paralyzed the server, putting this one unrealistically large fight in the spotlight. I'm sure it was fun for some of the people involved, for me, it was a terrible mess with 25 people crashing every 5 minutes due to RAGE not supporting that many people in one place. Since the rule was implemented, how many of those fights did you see? 0. How many criminal roleplay events did you see? I'm not sure about you, but I've saw many. It was during the criminal backup rule that Irish was still a thing and they opened their pub weekly, once again roleplay that @Lola was involved in. LSD was doing legal races, together with illegal ones, inviting people from all gangs. Roleplay still happens. What doesn't happen anymore is those huge fights, and I'm glad.

I have led two official criminal factions on this server. I was there for the abuse of the backup and the zerg fights that crippled the server.

The fact that you want to "roll labs" with several gangs shows exactly why the rule should not be relaxed in any way shape nor form. This rule does not stop roleplaying. You can meet at a public event, such as the Irish Pub, you can have some noodles at the noodle house. Actual roleplay. It can be done, and there shouldn't be any fear about that. However, running labs, chasing people and other such activities should never involve allies. The last thing we need right now is a return of zergs wiping off any smaller criminal crew from criminal activities. Allies should only assist you with soft power, and not shoot for you.

.

I am strongly in favor of this. It is something that most serious roleplay communities enforce. Stopping roleplay is simply not conducive to immersing yourself into your character or environment. It is not uncommon that RP is paused, an admin situation is dealt with, which involves uploading of evidence from two different sides, and twenty minutes later the RP is either voided, or even worst, resumed. By that time no one wishes to still partake in the roleplay, but they are more often than not, forced to continue. This needs to stop if we are to take roleplay more seriously.

I feel that while our IC interactions are probably not going to be positive, in my experience, that has stayed in-character and I appreciate that a lot, especially when losses as a criminal can cost you a great deal. Keep up the good work!

Date and time (provide timezone): 14/JAN/2022 1700 UTC Character name: Jason Steel Issue/bug you are reporting: Animation of reaching for radio when using it is no longer present. Expected behavior: Character should reach for its ear when operating the radio. Evidence, notes worth mentioning, steps to replicate: Press M; 100% reproducibility. Vehicle license plate number*: N/A

I do not like discussing specific reports as it can give off the impression that we are discussing a staff decision, which is outside what I should be doing as a player outside of an appeal, however, in a theoretical report, if there was a rule break, and both sides acknowledged this, and wished the report closed, what is the purpose of handing down punishments? It seems very heavy-handed and goes against what is constantly said by the staff team, that they are there to educate and not punish. If everyone involved in the roleplay agreed that a mistake happened, and they want to learn from it and grow, without any ill feelings, isn't that literally the best outcome? A staff member that was not involved jumping in and giving punishments does absolutely nothing for anyone learning or feelings. Unless we believe that punishments are the only way to make someone understand, in which case, the staff team is there to punish.

+1

This looks nice, and already half-implemented. Thank you for your work @Thang

That leaves the Officer's prints on the guns, not the suspect's, therefore, it should never affect you negatively as a criminal.

Why not? We use RNG for a lot of other elements in the server. Fishing is RNG, and using your logic it's wrong to use RNG to determine if somebody's fishing roleplay is good enough. I think that with this feature in place, it eliminates invulnerability which is not healthy for the overall server. If any player can just equip a mask and a glove and be virtually immune to arrest if not caught in the act, then it will encourage further unnecessary risk taking. Carrying and especially using a gun is a choice, it's kind of a given in a system where a single gloves can protect you from ever being tied to it for life, but it's not healthy. In fact, I will argue that the system prior to the script was much better. It incentivized people to roleplay gloves, remember to do new gloves regularly (every 48 hours) and if they slipped, it had an effect on their character. The current system is just drag an item over your hands are you a good, for life. It is you in fact who is arguing against criminal roleplay and in favor of UI dragging. I think if you're a fan of sending people away from threads, you should consult the first post in the thread, which invited a discussion on the topic of whether or not this is a bug, especially before you paint people as abusers.

The fact that gloves never expired or had 0% risk of ever getting you caught was not ideal. Gloves are supposed to be one-time use, how many times have you seen criminals wear the same gloves across multiple crimes? I've brought up the idea of glove prints, and while people that get their criminal RP from TV laughed, it is a legitimate vector of approach when dealing with gloved individuals and that alongside other forensic evidence is why you would never want to hold onto your gloves after you left the crime scene. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glove_prints I do not think it can be definitively called a bug just because it gives people a chance to not avoid all forensic roleplay with one item that they can wear forever.

Can confirm longstanding bug with additional version over several patches.

But the issue is that some people hate that as well. People in leadership roles in official factions have made /reports because "PD is escalating a traffic stop" by having four cruisers and a helicopter. However, that is exactly what you're advocating for, thinking ahead. If I know that someone is a gang member, likely armed and likely to evade, I will have overwhelming numbers, helicopters and other assets deployed ahead of time. However, some people think that is unrealistic. The issue seems to be that everyone has their own solution, and most of them seem to be aimed at making things less realistic. The fact of the matter is that if you try to run away from LAPD, even if a sports bike, you will not get away. A real helicopter is almost impossible to get away from. Until a week ago, every single bike could go into a subway system, on the actual tracks and easily juke it. In a populated city. That was fine and very little people had an issue with it; because, at the end of the day, very few people want realism, they just want an easier time getting away from cops, but that is not realistic.

If you are in fact speaking "as a police officer" then how can you in any world compare being a law enforcement officer with being a criminal? A police officer is for the most part a reactionary force. You should know very well how many rules and regulations you have to follow. Cops do not get free weapons or free cars because they are not their cars, they can not use them as they please. If you want to take your gun, you can do whatever you want with it. You can give it to a friend, you can sell it, you can use it to commit crime. Can a police officer do that? Of course not. Every single time you engage in criminal behavior, it is a choice. 99% of the time an officer reacts to your criminal behavior, it is not a choice, it's forced on them. These things are not equal and it is baffling to me that you do not understand this. Criminals should have an incredible disadvantage fighting cops. You should not want to fight cops. You should feel what you're feeling now "incredible disadvantage of winning a fight interactions limit to only evading on a bike", that is good. This is a roleplay server, not a TDM server where team cops is fighting vs team rooks/ballas. That wouldn't change anything, and all of the scripting would be for nothing. When was the last time you saw 65 people in /fmembers?

I don't want to speak for the staff team, but the logic seems to be that they want to avoid the "hands" and shoot mentality. If you had more of a reason to hold him up prior, shooting him could be justified, but if all he did was disregard your demands, it wouldn't be alright to shoot, possibly.

It is fair since No Crime Zones are not supposed to be free parking, you are choosing to save money or time and sacrificing safety. If you want to keep your vehicle safe, use the scripted parking lot(s), either personal or public. If you want to have your vehicle close or not pay money, risk it being impounded or chopped.

I'd like to seek clarification on the exact issue that needed tackling here. I feel that on a roleplaying server, the roleplay is the goal and as long as the individuals are being provided with sufficient roleplay, the length of the sentence is not relevant in an issue of quality or enjoyment. In short, why is that an issue (transport being longer than the sentence)?

I'm going to speak long-term, because this is not something that happened over night. Some of us will remember late 2018 and early 2019 as a good time, but also kind of a over-the-top TDM-like server. You could give demands out of a moving vehicle and shoot people over them. It was probably too much. Then around 2020 came the public robbery rules and more involvement from Faction Management into factions, both for factions that were official and those aspiring to be official. I think this is around the time when the line crossed from a good balance and started going into too much. There were complaints from a lot of faction leaders that faction management is smothering them. The public robbery rules were great for civilian roleplayers that could no longer be robbed getting gas, but they also allowed bad gangs to hide behind them. No solution was ever put in place for that. I will not speak for anyone else, or claim that this is the reason some factions chose to close, but this is around the time when we lost a lot of good factions from the server. We also lost some very good players, some were banned, some chose to leave. As time went on, things got even more strict and I feel that we are now a time where we no longer say "Shooting someone without a valid reason is bad", but we say "Shooting someone is bad". I don't know exactly who and why this was decided, but it seems relatively clear that the vast majority of the community does enjoy the shooting aspect of roleplaying. I do not mean the "clapcrews" which revolve solely around shooting, but, naturally, through roleplay shooting will happen in gang roleplay. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, I would not feel comfortable roleplaying a criminal character in the current year, because it feels, both from the server rules and the player report archive, that you're just not supposed to shoot anymore, ever, for any reason. It's always bad and heavily discouraged. Add onto that that people are more likely to get banned for deathmatching than they are for combat logging, and it creates a very bad cycle where people are discouraged from doing what they want to do, and even worse, some people are hiding behind these rules to win conflicts that they would otherwise have lost. It's very disheartening to see, even as someone that has no horse in the race.

I think @Victor Einhart summed up the issue fairly well. The fact of the matter is that there is a place for that kind of roleplay, and it can make sense and it can absolutely make a roleplay scenario better. However, the issue seems to be that certain people in the community instead use it to try to make people feel uncomfortable out of character, or because its funny or whatever. In the current environment, with the current attitude of the player base, I can see a strong case for restricting it entirely. However, any comments from people made in this thread either directly or implying that acting in a certain way in-character means that you're really that way deep down out-of-character just shows either a lack of ability or a lack of willingness to engage in portraying a character instead of just a power fantasy based on your real persona.

I do not understand how any of this works, but obviously the developers would. Thank you for your work. +1

I'd like to bring attention to a very common misconception in this thread, which is to call anything that is inconvenient to you "unrealistic". A Detective or a Gang Officer getting you out of the car because he suspects that you might have weapons is inconvenient to you. It is not unrealistic. A Detective or a Gang Officer pulling you over for a minor traffic violation in order to try to escalate into an arrest is inconvenient to you. It is not unrealistic. In terms of getting you out of the car, it is very well established that a law enforcement officer can and will get you out of the car if he believes you to be armed, which, like everyone in this thread admitted, most gang members are. There is absolutely nothing unrealistic about that. See this: https://youtu.be/vaTPbEGNu-g?t=25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_v._Mimms In terms of pulling you over for small stuff in order to try to escalate it during the traffic stop, the technical term for is is a pretextual stop. It is used by law enforcement officers extensively, and it was declared constitutional by the Supreme Court. See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whren_v._United_States Therefore, I'd like to ask everyone that is trying to have a reasonable discussion, based in facts, and not feelings, to make sure that they do not let their feelings cloud their judgement. You can make the argument that it is inconvenient for you, you can make the argument that it shouldn't happen in a video game. You can make many more arguments. However, you can not state that it is unrealistic for law enforcement to use known and documented legal techniques against known gang members that are color banging in 2021. That is arguing in bad faith, and using emotions rather than facts, and at that stage, it is very hard to take your complaints seriously.

Being asked to step out at a traffic stop is the opposite of NonRP, it is very realistic. I find it very peculiar that one of your complaints is that an officer would roleplay looking through your windows to look for weapons. How is law enforcement roleplaying with you an issue? The reason why multiple officers are present at a traffic stop is simple, when there isn't, people shoot them. If cops got shot at traffic stops in LA as much as they do in-game, I guarantee that the national guard would be on the streets. Cops roleplaying with you should never be an issue on a roleplaying server. Even if that roleplay ends up with you getting arrested, that shouldn't affect your feelings out-of-character. If you would like to state that it's an issue that the police force is too effective (as in you do not like that you get arrested), then please state it plainly. Calling valid actions NonRP does not make a good point, nor will create a situation where we discuss your actual issue.

The issue with comparing ECRP with real-life is that we do not have access to helicopters in the same way the LAPD does. The LAPD helicopter is virtually impossible to lose, you will see people with crazy super bikes not able to shake it for hours, they literally wait for them to run out of fuel. The in-game helicopter is pitifully slow, and is limited by draw distance and angles. Something else to keep in mind is that in real-life, cops will stop pursuits because they can always charge you later. The whole thing we do here on ECRP where mask = it wasn't me, wouldn't hold up in court. If someone that generally looks like you (masked or not) evades from cops in your car, you're going to prison. There's no such thing as "many people have keys". Literally wouldn't hold up. example of a pursuit where helicopter was used, and in the end chase was called off, driver later charged based on ownership https://www.foxla.com/news/reckless-driver-evades-police-after-pursuit-through-hollywood So, the whole realism thing is out of the window already. In the context of the game, super cars are needed because player cars are very high performance versus cop cars. GTA is a game about crime, and police vehicles were purposefully under-tuned, so that they would chase you, but not be very good at catching you. It would not be a healthy roleplay server if anyone with an elegy could just evade whenever they felt like it. The elegy is already a pretty meh car and we have the actually overpowered vehicles like the Issi Sport which even the T20 struggles against. Further exacerbating these issues is the fact that some players choose to lower their graphics much more than needed, in an effort to get better performance out of their vehicles, and someone doing 60 fps in the same vehicle as someone doing 144, will have a noticeable and game-impacting advantage. Therefore, there's a lot of things to consider when it comes to a game versus real-life and talking about Dubai is pointless. Most people in LA will not evade, not even gang members, it's a serious felony and you will get caught. I'm not even going to get into laws that specifically discourage this, that we do not have, such as the three strike laws further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes_law#:~:text=The three-strikes law significantly,other than a life sentence. tl;dr it's a game, and in the context of the game, super cars make sense. selective realism is not a good approach.