MDC while off-duty

[Victor Einhart]

10 hours ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I mean, this shows a lack of understanding about how the current system works. If this could be fixed by simply talking to other officers don't you think I would have thought about that...

The point is that it is the handbook's recommendation that Deputies and Officers apply charges themselves when they are the one who witnessed the crime happening. If you're on-duty that's fairly simple. However, if you are off-duty this forces you to go back to your precinct (which might be far-away) and get on-duty for literally 20 seconds just to place a charge.

Again, I would like to STRESS that this isn't an issue for most people, we will make the trip without a problem. But it might mean that suspects stay in the back of the cruiser waiting for the officer/deputy to go and apply charges and comeback (or call) to the arrest officer, which ends up being more time wasted. If the majority of the community is ok with that, then fair-play, but if you want to make things more efficient, then this suggestion might make sense.

Also, I see you were unable to actually point out how this suggestion can get ''abused''.

I know how it works, my man.  No need for this chirping.

All I'm saying is, instead of doing all this, you could simply tell an officer to add the charges.  You don't actually have to drive all the way to the station, get on duty, and add charges yourself.  You can just call 911 and tell the responding officer what happened and you can get those charges you want added.  Given that your witness testimony is valid probable cause to add charges, a privilege you have over everyday civilians, I don't see why it's necessary to do it yourself when you can take a few seconds to explain what happened and roleplay with another officer and achieve the results you want.  My issue is I don't see a need for additional scripting support when it can just be done by talking to an officer responding to your 911 call.

I never said anything about abuse, that's why I didn't mention it.

[Cyrus Raven]

1 hour ago, Victor Einhart said:

I know how it works, my man.  No need for this chirping.

All I'm saying is, instead of doing all this, you could simply tell an officer to add the charges.  You don't actually have to drive all the way to the station, get on duty, and add charges yourself.  You can just call 911 and tell the responding officer what happened and you can get those charges you want added.  Given that your witness testimony is valid probable cause to add charges, a privilege you have over everyday civilians, I don't see why it's necessary to do it yourself when you can take a few seconds to explain what happened and roleplay with another officer and achieve the results you want.  My issue is I don't see a need for additional scripting support when it can just be done by talking to an officer responding to your 911 call.

I never said anything about abuse, that's why I didn't mention it.

The reason why I want to add charges myself is because it protects other officers in case of an OOC report or an IA report. In our handbooks it specifically says that whoever witnessed the crime should be the one applying charges. Sure, I could tell an officer to add them and I have in the past. But I personally don't want to be adding charges to someone if I wasn't the one who saw it go down because I don't want to be liable both IC'ly and OOC'ly for any mistakes other officers or deputies made, and I don't expect them to do the same for me.

[froggytommy]

-1

[aXoL]

-1

[Denza]

As a fellow officer I have to disagree. 

You are off duty, youre not conducting your duties as an officer of the law. Nothing requires you to conduct your duties, which includes adding criminal charges.

Communication with other officers is key and the situation can be solved quite easily. 

Do you see yourself doing this realistically? Heading to your police station to file a crime or arrest report while off duty? Doubt it. 

[Bala]

On 10/9/2019 at 10:08 PM, Victor Einhart said:

I know how it works, my man.  No need for this chirping.

All I'm saying is, instead of doing all this, you could simply tell an officer to add the charges.  You don't actually have to drive all the way to the station, get on duty, and add charges yourself.  You can just call 911 and tell the responding officer what happened and you can get those charges you want added.  Given that your witness testimony is valid probable cause to add charges, a privilege you have over everyday civilians, I don't see why it's necessary to do it yourself when you can take a few seconds to explain what happened and roleplay with another officer and achieve the results you want.  My issue is I don't see a need for additional scripting support when it can just be done by talking to an officer responding to your 911 call.

I never said anything about abuse, that's why I didn't mention it.

This.

I feel like we should keep the lines between being on-duty as a cop and being off-duty as a civilian (who is employed as a cop) as clear as possible.

[Cyrus Raven]

5 minutes ago, Denza said:

As a fellow officer I have to disagree. 

You are off duty, youre not conducting your duties as an officer of the law. Nothing requires you to conduct your duties, which includes adding criminal charges.

Communication with other officers is key and the situation can be solved quite easily. 

Do you see yourself doing this realistically? Heading to your police station to file a crime or arrest report while off duty? Doubt it. 

I don't why people keep bringing duties up. I've explained this like 4 times now.

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT LETTING OFFICERS PERFORM THEIR DUTIES WHILE OFF-DUTY!

This is simply a quality of life suggestion. If you are a criminal who got the cops called on you and got arrested, if the only witness to your crime is an off-duty officer then they have to add charges. As I mentioned to Alex (although he thought I was being snide for some reason), if you want to let criminals sit around waiting for charges to be added when they could have been done on the spot then that's fine, at the end of the day whether someone get's access to the MDC while off-duty or not changes NOTHING, I and others will still go out of our way to add charges, it's just a matter of whether or not we take a few seconds or 20 minutes. Simple as that.


As for the realism talk, I do not buy that. If you want realism then remove every business from every criminal in the server, make all cars besides a simple coupe or sedan very expensive, reduce the overall payout for civ jobs and government jobs and change another million things that technically make the server ''unrealistic''. Not only that, but what part of knowing the log-in and password for a computer yet being stopped by a script is ''realistic'' in your mind ?


Don't get me wrong, the above isn't an argument for adding a bunch of unrealistic stuff to the server, but one about having a blend between what is convenient and fun as well as realistic. Our SOPs tell all Deputies and Officers to add their own charges to avoid being accused of something OOC'ly or IC'ly and to facilitate tracking of who actually added charges in case of an IA report (OOC or IC). Not having the ability to realistically take your username and password, and accessing a simple computer seems more Non-RP to me than having a script prevent you from role playing this out.

[Denza]

37 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I don't why people keep bringing duties up. I've explained this like 4 times now.

NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT LETTING OFFICERS PERFORM THEIR DUTIES WHILE OFF-DUTY!

This is simply a quality of life suggestion. If you are a criminal who got the cops called on you and got arrested, if the only witness to your crime is an off-duty officer then they have to add charges. As I mentioned to Alex (although he thought I was being snide for some reason), if you want to let criminals sit around waiting for charges to be added when they could have been done on the spot then that's fine, at the end of the day whether someone get's access to the MDC while off-duty or not changes NOTHING, I and others will still go out of our way to add charges, it's just a matter of whether or not we take a few seconds or 20 minutes. Simple as that.


As for the realism talk, I do not buy that. If you want realism then remove every business from every criminal in the server, make all cars besides a simple coupe or sedan very expensive, reduce the overall payout for civ jobs and government jobs and change another million things that technically make the server ''unrealistic''. Not only that, but what part of knowing the log-in and password for a computer yet being stopped by a script is ''realistic'' in your mind ?


Don't get me wrong, the above isn't an argument for adding a bunch of unrealistic stuff to the server, but one about having a blend between what is convenient and fun as well as realistic. Our SOPs tell all Deputies and Officers to add their own charges to avoid being accused of something OOC'ly or IC'ly and to facilitate tracking of who actually added charges in case of an IA report (OOC or IC). Not having the ability to realistically take your username and password, and accessing a simple computer seems more Non-RP to me than having a script prevent you from role playing this out.

The only thing I can think of to agree with the suggestion is simply your knowledge of the login information RPly. However. While youre on a off duty officer, you witnessing a crime is no different than to a civilian unless you have proof of said crime. Its always heresay. Thus, if this were to be added, I will not go out of my way when off duty, to add charges to the person.

 

Youre technically then doing your job while not at work. 

[Cyrus Raven]

2 minutes ago, Denza said:

The only thing I can think of to agree with the suggestion is simply your knowledge of the login information RPly. However. While youre on a off duty officer, you witnessing a crime is no different than to a civilian unless you have proof of said crime. Its always heresay. Thus, if this were to be added, I will not go out of my way when off duty, to add charges to the person.

 

It's called a ''relayed witness' or ''direct witness'' I suggest you re-read your handbook. 

[alexalex303]

26 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

It's called a ''relayed witness' or ''direct witness'' I suggest you re-read your handbook. 

 The fact that it's in the handbook is not a sound argument. The handbook can be wrong.

It makes no sense for an off-duty cop to send people to prison. Regardless of what your handbook says.

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, alexalex303 said:

 The fact that it's in the handbook is not a sound argument. The handbook can be wrong.

It makes no sense for an off-duty cop to send people to prison. Regardless of what your handbook says.

Firstly, the only reason I mention the handbook is because of this statement ''While you'rec off duty , you witnessing a crime is no different than to a civilian unless you have proof of said crime. Its always hearsay.'' This is simply not true. We have no justice system, this is a police state and Law Enforcement Agent's testimony is in fact worth more than other civilians, it's a privilege for sure, but that's how it works. This is not even up for discussion. It's a fact.

Secondly, please quote where in this thread I've said that off-duty officers should be able to arrest individuals and transport them to DOC/Mission Row ? You're straight up straw manning, you either know this or you struggle with reading comprehension (I don't mean this as an insult, but I've literally explained this in no uncertain terms to you before, here are the quotes)

''You shouldn't be conducting any sort of regular duties when off-duty, this suggestion has nothing to do with that. As for charges, you should absolutely be adding charges yourself if you were the officer/deputy who witnessed what happened.''

and 

''In no place in this thread have I ever suggested that off-duty officers should be able to '' arrest someone for a crime, hop in a cruiser, and sentence them to prison and immense fines'' or anything remotely similar. ''


As for the ''makes no sense'' portion, you would then have to agree with this statement, correct ?

''As for the realism talk, I do not buy that. If you want realism then remove every business from every criminal in the server, make all cars besides a simple coupe or sedan very expensive, reduce the overall payout for civ jobs and government jobs and change another million things that technically make the server ''unrealistic''.''

If not, why ?

[Victor Einhart]

4 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

remove every business from every criminal in the server

  Hello.

[Xoza]

4 hours ago, Denza said:

As a fellow officer I have to disagree. 

You are off duty, youre not conducting your duties as an officer of the law. Nothing requires you to conduct your duties, which includes adding criminal charges.

Communication with other officers is key and the situation can be solved quite easily. 

Do you see yourself doing this realistically? Heading to your police station to file a crime or arrest report while off duty? Doubt it. 

Yes, I would and I have done so. If you are sworn to protect the citizens, city and state, you are required to at minimum to report the crime to officers on duty and provide any information you have regarding it. Not doing so would be misconduct and dereliction of duty whether you're on duty or not. The power you are given being law enforcement has it's perks. but it also has it's demands. If you stood there witnessed any crime and you didn't report it you could face charges yourself for accessory.

On 10/9/2019 at 2:05 PM, Xoza said:

+1

A law enforcement officer is an enforcer of the law, whether on or off duty and can either way, go on duty, place charges then go off duty. This would eliminate that unnecessary and non-RP of running in to script 'on duty' to place charges then get off duty.

Lets work on making things more efficient so we can get back to the RP itself.

All of this is based on real life, obviously, but we're trying to RP as close to as possible within our capabilities.

[Cyrus Raven]

15 minutes ago, Xoza said:

Yes, I would and I have done so. If you are sworn to protect the citizens, city and state, you are required to at minimum to report the crime to officers on duty and provide any information you have regarding it. Not doing so would be misconduct and dereliction of duty whether you're on duty or not. The power you are given being law enforcement has it's perks. but it also has it's demands. If you stood there witnessed any crime and you didn't report it you could face charges yourself for accessory.

All of this is based on real life, obviously, but we're trying to RP as close to as possible within our capabilities.

I was actually unsure of how off-duty powers worked IRL, not that it matters that much when it comes to this RP server seeing as we aren't mimicking real life 1 to 1, but from what I've read so far whether you are on-duty or off-duty you are still a law enforcement agent and can still detain and arrest people, in other words ''enforce the law''.

For those who want to do some reading here are a few links. @alexalex303 maybe you want to have a look at these seeing as you keep harping on about ''realism'' and stuff ''making no sense''.

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2018/09/legal-authority-of-off-duty-cops.html

https://thinkprogress.org/the-incredible-power-of-off-duty-cops-d0d3435aba3f/

https://www.government.nl/topics/police/police-powers (From the government of Netherlands)

It seems that the consensus is that off-duty officers still retain their powers whether they are in uniform or not, there are a few legal protections they might lose in the US when it comes to shootings and etc.. But for the purpose of this suggestion and the overall argument about ''realism'' it seems that even the real world doesn't agree with you.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Kyle White Raven

[Dylan Ortiz]

-1. I can't stand the fact that police can see the 911 calls to medics and display the full name of the said person to then arrive on scene and then arrest someone over something like reckless driving as it is. i know the above has nothing to do with the MDC but just stating how OP the script is for the 911 calls as it is. 

[HaminLord]

Is driving back to the station in order to go on-duty and place a few charges before going off-duty again that big of a deal? If you really can't do it, you can always ask for another LEO to apply the charge(s), and in case they are IA reported, nothing stops them from mentioning the fact another LEO has told them to apply the charges.

You are not supposed to enforce the law when off-duty, if you find yourself in said situation, what you'll need to do is contact a Law Enforcing Officer, tell them what happened and help (if needed and permitted), e.g Place a person under civilian arrest due to him attempting to rob another civilian in a clothes shop, etcetera.

[Arian]

-1. You're off duty for a reason.

Whats your next suggestion gonna be? Receive salary whilst being off duty?

[Cyrus Raven]

2 minutes ago, Arian said:

-1. You're off duty for a reason.

Whats your next suggestion gonna be? Receive salary whilst being off duty?

 did you read any replies in this thread at all ?

[Cyrus Raven]

12 minutes ago, HaminLord said:

Is driving back to the station in order to go on-duty and place a few charges before going off-duty again that big of a deal? If you really can't do it, you can always ask for another LEO to apply the charge(s), and in case they are IA reported, nothing stops them from mentioning the fact another LEO has told them to apply the charges.

You are not supposed to enforce the law when off-duty, if you find yourself in said situation, what you'll need to do is contact a Law Enforcing Officer, tell them what happened and help (if needed and permitted), e.g Place a person under civilian arrest due to him attempting to rob another civilian in a clothes shop, etcetera.

Like I said before, I don't mind making the drive, this suggestion is meant as a quality of life improvement so in the cases that this happens the suspects don't have to potentially wait 15+ mins to get charges placed. From an RP perspective I think it makes perfect sense for off-duty LEOs to know their username and log-ins, and be able to use a cruiser or the closest precinct to add charges. 
 

[Cyrus Raven]

1 hour ago, Dylan Ortiz said:

-1. I can't stand the fact that police can see the 911 calls to medics and display the full name of the said person to then arrive on scene and then arrest someone over something like reckless driving as it is. i know the above has nothing to do with the MDC but just stating how OP the script is for the 911 calls as it is. 

This could be another suggestion, but I find it ironic that criminals want to use government services using numbers that are on the record while being wanted, but want no repercussions from it. 

Just an FYI, Law Enforcement Agencies don't get a call number for any MD calls, they have to manually open the MDC and crosscheck whoever called MD with the Wanted List. It's something that very very few officers and deputies do, myself being one of the few people.

[Msato]

9 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

This could be another suggestion, but I find it ironic that criminals want to use government services using numbers that are on the record while being wanted, but want no repercussions from it. 

Just an FYI, Law Enforcement Agencies don't get a call number for any MD calls, they have to manually open the MDC and crosscheck whoever called MD with the Wanted List. It's something that very very few officers and deputies do, myself being one of the few people.

There is a big difference between criminals "wanting to used numbers that are on record" than criminals being forced to use it as there is no other option. 

As for cross referencing MD calls, all you do is type a name into the mdc, which then displays full name, phone number, active and cleared charges etc of the caller. 

You state this is a QoL change but irl a person who has been detained by a civilian would have to wait around for law enforcement to arrive, process statements etc. You would merely be able to advise never mind pressing charges. 

As for placing charges you "witnessed whilst off duty" this is against already set out IC rules within PD. I'm inexperienced with SD to comment for them however, this would result in severe punishment/removal from PD.

Off duty you are a civilian at the end of the day. Perhaps make use of the already existing "Crime Report" system on the Gov website and allow the detectives to do their job. 

[Tomvd682]

Is this a joke?

[Tomvd682]

38 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

This could be another suggestion, but I find it ironic that criminals want to use government services using numbers that are on the record while being wanted, but want no repercussions from it. 

Just an FYI, Law Enforcement Agencies don't get a call number for any MD calls, they have to manually open the MDC and crosscheck whoever called MD with the Wanted List. It's something that very very few officers and deputies do, myself being one of the few people.

There have been several suggestions about burners and phone booths, do we really have another option? How ironic is that?

Edited October 15, 2019 by Tomvd682

[Cyrus Raven]

20 minutes ago, CallumMontie said:

There is a big difference between criminals "wanting to used numbers that are on record" than criminals being forced to use it as there is no other option. 

As for cross referencing MD calls, all you do is type a name into the mdc, which then displays full name, phone number, active and cleared charges etc of the caller. 

You state this is a QoL change but irl a person who has been detained by a civilian would have to wait around for law enforcement to arrive, process statements etc. You would merely be able to advise never mind pressing charges. 

As for placing charges you "witnessed whilst off duty" this is against already set out IC rules within PD. I'm inexperienced with SD to comment for them however, this would result in severe punishment/removal from PD.

Off duty you are a civilian at the end of the day. Perhaps make use of the already existing "Crime Report" system on the Gov website and allow the detectives to do their job. 

I suggest you take a look at the links I provided a few replies ago, not only are you completely wrong on what it means to be ''off-duty'', but you are also wrong on department protocols, although if you have any screenshots of these feel free to PM them to me and we can take a look at them. 

As for the burner phone suggestion, I would +1 that, but even if that is the case, calling a government service realistically requires you to provide your name and MD to report the type of wound to law enforcement if it is a stab wound, gun shot wound or if the medical call originated from a domestic abuse situation. 

Maybe an illegal doctor that you can pay to fix you up could also help. 

[Cyrus Raven]

@Tomvd682

Just now, Kyle White Raven said:

As for the burner phone suggestion, I would +1 that, but even if that is the case, calling a government service realistically requires you to provide your name and MD to report the type of wound to law enforcement if it is a stab wound, gun shot wound or if the medical call originated from a domestic abuse situation. 

Maybe an illegal doctor that you can pay to fix you up could also help. 

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Kyle White Raven