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Development confusion

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A Big +1 on this post.

When you watch Twitch streamers on other servers, ECRP is massively lacking on the development side. That's obviously down to there only being 2 devs and quite frankly, 2 devs isn't enough to run a server of this size. I've played on the ECRP for a while now and the updates just aren't frequent enough. We had an "upcoming content teaser" for the drug update in SEPTEMBER last year which still hasn't happened nearly 12 months on. Don't get me wrong, the latest updates that have come in on the criminal side are great. They've added a much needed improvement on that side of the server but there could be so much more. 

I don't for one second believe that funding is an issue on the server so it can only be the slow development due to the sheer size and task for only 2 people. 

There's literally a ton of updates/inspiration that could be brought into ECRP from other servers and I know @Bala has suggested some great ones in the past that he's been unable to push through yet. 

@NBDY @Osvaldon you're doing a great job but please increase the dev team!

Edited by Ronnie Moretti
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I really enjoy playing on this server, but the severe lack of development or transparency from the senior staff team is really starting to kill it. The community within the server is constantly attempting to help improve it, with developers constantly ignoring the suggestions. I will attach two images below, one exhibiting the number of suggestions, and the other indicating the amount of implemented suggestions. There are over 20 thousand suggestions that have received no response from the developers. unknown.png.89ba05ebd9ff290e4a51af0c4c04dd57.pngunknown.png.0cd06e64783966cdddbb7492d72cfc44.png

 

23 hours ago, IAmTurtle said:

There is a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes just progress is slow with 2 devs and they are trying to make sure that everything is perfect before they push it. 

I'm not sure if 12 months per update is a reasonable time frame for this. "Slow progress" is a really unforgiving excuse when there are hundreds of players willing to wait for these updates. 

In reality, there is no reason for updates to not be released. If you scroll through the discord, nearly everyone who is active is a donator, which demonstrates they have donated over 100 euros. 

I will list some solutions below which I believe should be assessed by the developers as soon as possible:

  • Hire an extra developer. It is no secret that money is not an issue here. In fact, your 3rd developer recently left, maybe its time to replace him?
  • Provide more transparency with what you are working on.
  • Place more effort into this community and quit neglecting it. There are literally tens of thousands of suggestions within hundreds of threads.
Edited by blade
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I don't think a lack of constant updates can kill a roleplay server that is based around roleplay. The issue is that a good amount of people seem to overly rely on script support for most things.

The fact of the matter is that roleplay is supposed to be about imagination and creating scenarios, the script is more than capable of providing you with endless social interactions, violent interactions and even sexual interactions. 

I suggest looking at yourself and what you can do with what you have, rather than waiting for an update, because no matter how big the update will be, it will only keep you busy for so long, and then you will go back to waiting for the next update. Instead, try to have fun and positive experiences with what you have now, and when an update comes, it will be something extra on top, not the reason why you're playing.

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4 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I don't think a lack of constant updates can kill a roleplay server that is based around roleplay. The issue is that a good amount of people seem to overly rely on script support for most things.

The fact of the matter is that roleplay is supposed to be about imagination and creating scenarios, the script is more than capable of providing you with endless social interactions, violent interactions and even sexual interactions. 

I suggest looking at yourself and what you can do with what you have, rather than waiting for an update, because no matter how big the update will be, it will only keep you busy for so long, and then you will go back to waiting for the next update. Instead, try to have fun and positive experiences with what you have now, and when an update comes, it will be something extra on top, not the reason why you're playing.

I love this take I REALLY DO, but "Roleplay is about imagination" does not exist here as it needs to be supported from both sides, countless times I have tried to "Use my imagination" to only be hit with "Do you have alt rp perms" "if it cant be done scriptly it doesn't exist" I wish more if not everyone would allow Imagination and creativity to exist but as the server is in its current state like you said people rely on the script way too much. 

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8 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I don't think a lack of constant updates can kill a roleplay server that is based around roleplay. The issue is that a good amount of people seem to overly rely on script support for most things.

The fact of the matter is that roleplay is supposed to be about imagination and creating scenarios, the script is more than capable of providing you with endless social interactions, violent interactions and even sexual interactions. 

I suggest looking at yourself and what you can do with what you have, rather than waiting for an update, because no matter how big the update will be, it will only keep you busy for so long, and then you will go back to waiting for the next update. Instead, try to have fun and positive experiences with what you have now, and when an update comes, it will be something extra on top, not the reason why you're playing.

This is exactly why development should be focused on script features that enable the type of roleplay you're mentioning.

For example, it is mind boggling to me that in the several years of this server being up, we don't have:

  1. Shared business bank accounts that enable basic accounting/management for player ran businesses.
  2. F4 like menu but for player ran businesses where employees can be hired/fired/promoted, business vehicles and properties can be set up with relevant permissions, etc...
  3. A more interconnected economy where things don't just ''spawn'' from nothing (Example: Having truckers transport mechanic materials to LSC/Bayview from the docks)
  4. An item creation system that enables players to make their own items (provided RP is done and prior approval has been established through the forums), allowing players to set image of the items that would show in inventory and effects (if any) of the items. (Example: Player purchases and builds a restaurant and uses the item creation system to create custom dishes to sell, making each individual items from different businesses unique in their own way as opposed to just ''RP'ing'' it.)
  5. A basic street racing system that enables creation of tracks, creating race lobbies, setting buy-in values and payouts for races, etc...

These are just a few of the top of my head suggestions that would largely enable players to take control of their roleplay as opposed to something that would be a ''one off'' update that would lose hype in a couple of months.

Now, can you TECHNICALLY, do most of these with pure RP ? Yes, of course, but it's not something that should be the ''norm'' in a server with this size and while some players might be overly dependant on script features, I think that it's disingenuous to characterize most people as reliant on these features. Instead, I would argue that it's a reasonable expectation for a GTA RP server in 2022.

Edited by Cyrus Raven
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Oh boy, I'm going to choose my words very carefully for obvious reasons but this is how I see it, particularly since I got tagged here.
You can't really say that a server that gets 100-250 people a day is dying but at the same time, I don't see any new growth which in the long term would be cause for concern.

With regards to the OPs comment, I think as long as you have a server to play on and you get the perks you are offered when you donate, that's as far as the obligation between donator and recipient goes to be honest. That said, the happier your player base is, the more inclined they are to donate to support the server so in a sense it does go hand in hand.

I agree with Ronnie, I do think at this point, the needs of server for development outweigh the capabilities of NBDY and Osvaldon. Those needs continue to grow as different areas of the server go without updates. Demand increases while supply is minimal. Even if they both go at it full time, I think it only makes a dent. The only way I can see them getting on top of it is bringing other developers on board but that comes with it's own headaches. You can't just be responsible for your own work then, you have to supervise someone elses. You also have to give people the access to do things which is another thing to manage.

I'm not one of these people that just fucking moans and then never offers any solutions. Since July last year, I with a few others have put a shit load of time into modifications for the server with only a few of them even making in so far which is honestly annoying. Stuff that would set our server apart from the others, improve the presentation of our roleplay environment and expand on what we have. I don't get paid for this, I did because I could, because I enjoyed the server and I get a kick out of making stuff for others to enjoy. I genuinely hope that as much of that stuff is implemented as it possibly can be because there's some fucking dope shit in there. That said, again adding mod stuff takes development time so the process becomes slower.

Updated MLOs, new vehicles, new uniforms, new hair, map fixes.. all of that stuff isn't necessarily a game changer but it adds an extra dimension to the environment, it makes Eclipse's version of the GTA 5 map feel a little more lived in and personal to our server. 

I think alexalex's post is a little naïve to be honest. I think where ECRP is in 2022, we're overly reliant on the loyalty of existing players which is finite. Every player has their jumping off point and I'm not sure "be the change you want to see" is practical. I think if you play the character instead of the meta, you get fucked on. I think if you try to go outside the norm with your roleplay, you get fucked on. I don't think expanding your character is rewarded and I don't think adding detail is necessarily rewarded either. Not that many people are putting themselves out there long term to lead the way for others.

I think at this point, you have to show a little titty and give people a reason to log in and to do x and y. Quality wise, overall we're probably an average roleplay server and we require the script to prop us up because the people that can construct in-depth characters with lengthy back stories and add all the extra details and meanings to their actions don't go here. That's fine, what this server does, this server does well. But for what this server does well to work, you need a lot of script support to help that along. 

Instead of consolidating and embracing what we do well, we've tried to be something we're not. We have two full size police departments and not enough motivated criminals to support them. We have a Court system where no one in the entire server really seems to fully understand what the laws are half the time. We don't enough people on the ground and out in the regular world but we're putting people into the sky now? We have two mechanic factions and one of them changes leaders every two months. We have a staff team that all seem to be trying to enforce rules for different servers and from what I can see, are seemingly content with preserving the status quo than pushing for real change.

It just doesn't feel like there is a plan any more, it just feels like we're on auto-pilot waiting for another population boom to happen so we can convince ourselves what we're doing is working. I'm sick of repeating myself, feel like I've said the same thing ten different times on ten different threads and I seem to spend more time complaining than I do playing.

I've tried to be respectful with what I've said but this shit really isn't hard to fix. Just no one will until it's too late and we're all talking about how things used to be and how we wish we'd done stuff differently.

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I respect that the founders are not giving us any updates. I think they're waiting for GTA 6 to come out so ECLIPSE can move there where we will have huge surprises and opportunities! Just wait guys, it won't take long!!!

GTA 5 version days are over for the server, we just play to increase our xp. But again, let's wait for GTA 6 ECLIPSE RP, I AM PRETTY SURE AND CONFIDENT THAT @NBDY and @Osvaldon HAVE HUGE PLANS FOR US THERE!

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2 hours ago, Vixxey said:

I respect that the founders are not giving us any updates. I think they're waiting for GTA 6 to come out so ECLIPSE can move there where we will have huge surprises and opportunities! Just wait guys, it won't take long!!!

GTA 5 version days are over for the server, we just play to increase our xp. But again, let's wait for GTA 6 ECLIPSE RP, I AM PRETTY SURE AND CONFIDENT THAT @NBDY and @Osvaldon HAVE HUGE PLANS FOR US THERE!

image.jpeg.88dda9c372cab13e0ab2af272f895b7f.jpeg

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I don't doubt in any way that the current devs are doing all they can and doing a great job. But I do agree that some more is needed. I would be more than happy to give out a bit more money to support more updates or hire more devs, and I am sure that other players of this server would be as well if thats what it takes. 

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It is not entirely true that there have been no updates because I really loved the last criminal updates and more updates are underway like house robberies, advanced character customization, new clothes, interiors and vehicles (thanks to our modder team), drugs, etc.. There are also updates that are not usually noticed by regular players, such as, admin tools and anti-cheat measures.

I admit that it is a bit difficult to work in a team of only 2 developers, as there are so many different interests within the server. Even if we release an update, someone is unsatisfied as it is either a civilian/police/criminal update and not vice-versa. It is also difficult to integrate new developers in a project that is so old because training would take time, but the main issue is that our codebase is extremely large and very valuable to us and we can't entrust it to just anyone, not even with signed legal agreements. Another issue is, that the server is old and has many different scripts and each new feature needs to be made compatible with all the old ones so it makes updating certain aspects of the server more difficult (like clothes or drugs).

All the issues aside, we are still trying to maintain the project and release new features for our players. We are definitely not waiting for GTA 6 to get released as it is unclear when that will happen and even if it were to be released next year, it might take another year or two for multiplayer clients like RAGEMP to emerge, so it is really not worth the wait. The nearest updates players can expect are house robberies, new faction and civilian clothes, character customization rework and the character selection menu updates. Drugs have been put on hold, but I'd like to get back to it when the character customization updates are pushed.

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25 minutes ago, Osvaldon said:

It is not entirely true that there have been no updates because I really loved the last criminal updates and more updates are underway like house robberies, advanced character customization, new clothes, interiors and vehicles (thanks to our modder team), drugs, etc.. There are also updates that are not usually noticed by regular players, such as, admin tools and anti-cheat measures.

I admit that it is a bit difficult to work in a team of only 2 developers, as there are so many different interests within the server. Even if we release an update, someone is unsatisfied as it is either a civilian/police/criminal update and not vice-versa. It is also difficult to integrate new developers in a project that is so old because training would take time, but the main issue is that our codebase is extremely large and very valuable to us and we can't entrust it to just anyone, not even with signed legal agreements. Another issue is, that the server is old and has many different scripts and each new feature needs to be made compatible with all the old ones so it makes updating certain aspects of the server more difficult (like clothes or drugs).

All the issues aside, we are still trying to maintain the project and release new features for our players. We are definitely not waiting for GTA 6 to get released as it is unclear when that will happen and even if it were to be released next year, it might take another year or two for multiplayer clients like RAGEMP to emerge, so it is really not worth the wait. The nearest updates players can expect are house robberies, new faction and civilian clothes, character customization rework and the character selection menu updates. Drugs have been put on hold, but I'd like to get back to it when the character customization updates are pushed.

Thanks for the update and insight into the issues you guys work through. I think we all appreciate the hard work you guys put in and no one should take this server for granted.

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On 7/20/2022 at 2:45 PM, Osvaldon said:

but the main issue is that our codebase is extremely large and very valuable to us and we can't entrust it to just anyone, not even with signed legal agreements.

Prefacing this by saying that I no longer regularly play (any RP at all), and that I really do appreciate the amount of effort, as well as how difficult it is to maintain a codebase, speaking as a software engineer, and you guys do a lot of work.

With this being said, I don't really see why you can't entrust your codebase. You should know that the more eyes there are on a codebase, the higher quality it is, and the more updates it can get. It's not like you guys are inventing some super niche thing, you guys have an RP server - of which there are many out there.

But you guys have the secret ingredient - an active, loyal playerbase that seems to be shrinking. Think about it - even if your codebase leaks, who cares? Obviously it would suck, but it's not as catastrophic as you'd think because your users are here and not elsewhere mainly because of other people, the ones that frequent this server. If your updates stagnate, it will inevitably drive away people and you will also lose this secret ingredient this server has, and then you will have nothing. Plus, even if it takes a long time to train someone on your code, it's ALWAYS worth it to do so because that's an extra person that knows it and can teach it to someone new on the team.

Please, please, please, accept more people into the development team. I may not play here anymore, but I love the people here. For the long-term sustainability of your community, it drastically needs a better script that meets the growing needs of your playerbase. Other servers (such as a particularly well known text-based only one) have many more devs, and an application process, and they're doing very well. And also, they have much more to lose because they're the only popular text-based RP server, and yet they're not worried about their codebase to the same extent. So what will it take to realize that you absolutely need to get more devs onboard? For your sakes, I hope you don't realize it when it's too late.

Edited by SaltyPython
Clarifying.
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I heavily agree with what @SaltyPython says here @Osvaldon

I'm not a developer but surely there is a way something like this can be circumvented and make it safer for you guys to work with others, implement and work on stuff? The server is absolutely great and has so much potential but right now it's incredibly stale and it does feel like the server pop is going down which sucks.

Right now there is no social hub on the server, this isn't exactly anyone in particular's fault but what happened to Pier? The old population at bank? there was always at least 30+ people at said locations at any given time, even dead hours. Not to even mention Tequilala, you can go in there and be lucky to find a single person doing poker.

As far as content creation goes, (this is really important imo for bring new people to the server) NO content creator wants to spend 4 hours in DOC on a livestream, it's simply not worth it for them. People like Shamel used to get arrested, and although he would serve the sentence, it slowly got old and he just stopped playing

I cannot imagine how hard it is/was for 2 of you to work on a server with as much people in the past. But I feel like as an outsider into the team something needs to change and change quickly because as of now it feels quite stagnant. I think if things like development was addressed a bit more like you did in the thread earlier, instead of being silent would be a lot more appreciated from everyone, at least to give us some stuff to look forward to.

When you look at other servers, it seems like most have a team of developers that constantly work on the server to a certain extent, to bring new features, etc, and I feel like with everyones help we can easily compete to that

I hope none of this came off as rude, but I simply just wanted to provide my input as best as I could

Edited by Dara MacFadden
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16 hours ago, Dara MacFadden said:

Right now there is no social hub on the server, this isn't exactly anyone in particular's fault but what happened to Pier? The old population at bank? there was always at least 30+ people at said locations at any given time, even dead hours. Not to even mention Tequilala, you can go in there and be lucky to find a single person doing poker.

For the record, this was something that we've been discussing so we're all aware of it being an issue at this time. 

I'd mentioned it in the suggestion thread below and while I cannot say for sure if that is the direction we'll take, the addressing of there not being a "social hub" is one that we're actively looking into. 

Right now though, the focus and attention is on the remainder of the Criminal Update and the Clothing Update so we will have to wait and see what shakes loose.

 

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2 hours ago, John Nut said:

I dont think thats correct, Any game gets old without updates. Eventually you will only repeat the same thing over and over again, even RP. Scripts has alot more to do with RP than just /me and /do.   Look at any other game nowdays. Updates after updates, and its not only because people get boored. This generation/younger generation are used to fast pased stuff. Like videos/Tiktok, insta reels and games where 95% of all games coming out get regularely updates and those who dont, die 10 times quicker than the ones who does get regular updates  <-- facts. (Gta V online brings updates often and if they wouldnt the game would have died 13 years ago) People wouldnt have played Gta online if they only ever came with 3 updates in those 13 years (<--example not statement)  And honestly Ecrp has gotten alot more toxic/anger the last few months.  We get told/pictures and pictures of new updates, but we never see them, we dont even get an "expected" release. So we just sit clueless waiting and waiting not getting any response from any devs/staff of when we could expect this. I understand that you cant just hire a new dev and trust him with all the files and such, and i fully understand that its VERY difficult and takes time. But Lack of communication leads to anger and frustration, we also even might feel tricked sometime, like that drug update. Why was we told now 10 months later that its been postponed/pushed back. This is typical things that often goes wrong in communities, lack of communication between the community and the devs/staff.  Being more open to talk and give answers and be open about what is going on is something i think this server needs more than ever right now. 

-What about a monthly dev blog, so we can see what they are working on and have done and try and get an expected release/ This might come in 5 months or less or "iminant release" or something to give us atleast a SLIGHT idea of how long, instead of radio silence. Have a deadline and try to hold that deadline, and dont change what you are working on unless its highly neccesary. Specially when its been heavily teased already.

-What about comming out with thos update messages on development a day before the actual update, even tho its small changes. As it will give people a little warning about whats to come or what small changes is comming. I personally have been hit by that a couple times, something being changed or removed, just small features and im completely clueless because i didnt check the development after the restart. 

-Let the community feel more a part of the changes and new updates, talk to us, ask us, put up polls. 

 

Now please read this sentence very carefully, I am not stating that this is why the server has been more toxic lately, im just comming with ideas to what might be the cause of this.  .

and please If you havent read the whole message do not respond. (to anyone halfway reading) .   

Every server has their issues and thats completely okay, we just need to remember we are in this together and not against eachother, staff, devs and crims&cops. ❤️ 
Appriciate the hard work from all the staff and devs! keep it going and fight to improve!

 

 

I appreciate the intention of this post but you have to acknowledge that Eclipse was never a server that appealed to low attention span, instant gratification geared players. I'm not trying to minimize your concerns on development and transparency, but I do think there's a chasm between player expectations and the reality of developmental limitations. 

And I do agree we deserve more transparency on that process--but I'm not quite convinced that the transparency would translate into positivity being reciprocated both ways. In a way it's nice to be shielded from the stressors of development because if we knew the facts, we might be disappointed or unsatisfied with the limits of where GTA V as a platform, can go. 

Player input can only overcome an aging platform for so long. Eclipse does an outstanding job on promoting roleplay outside the bounds of scriptly in game client control but this is still a base game from 2013, and there are times where I get the same feeling of decline as I did on San Andreas servers. Moments soaked in the monotony of a repetitive roleplay are common but then you also have fleeting moments of fun when stars align and everyone enjoys the RP without being toxic or reporting. Sadly I see more of the latter and less of the former the longer I research. 

The bottom line of the big picture is that ECRP has sacrificed a lot to be inclusive, and also a lot to be exclusive. We're a whitelisted server with strict and swift consequences for rule breaks. That alone alienates a lot of the player pool. On the other hand though, you see a sustained and significant effort in reiterating the importance of consent RP from staff, which is a huge win for inclusivity. 

I don't think the answer is nerfing the rules or weakening the whitelist, it's clearly an identity issue with what Eclipse RP is. It just seems to me that staff continues to cultivate a net negative financial experience for criminal RP. And obviously, money isn't everything when it comes to roleplay. But it does make a big difference in how effective you can roleplay. When we reduce it down to the Cop/Crim experience, the Cops are essentially eternally funded by a supposed IC budget that is only backed up by OOC legitimacy. I think if the government of San Andreas held elections, they'd be shocked at the results because people are displeased with the allocation of funds in various capacities. 

You say you want a revolution? Well you know, we all want to change the world. 
 

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15 hours ago, Kommand said:

I appreciate the intention of this post but you have to acknowledge that Eclipse was never a server that appealed to low attention span, instant gratification geared players. I'm not trying to minimize your concerns on development and transparency, but I do think there's a chasm between player expectations and the reality of developmental limitations. 

And I do agree we deserve more transparency on that process--but I'm not quite convinced that the transparency would translate into positivity being reciprocated both ways. In a way it's nice to be shielded from the stressors of development because if we knew the facts, we might be disappointed or unsatisfied with the limits of where GTA V as a platform, can go. 


 

I don't think anyone will be unsatisfied or dissapointed to where GTA V as a platform can go lol, we have seen numerous times where it can go, it's not even a question what it can do at this point, I'm not sure what you mean by this.

15 hours ago, Kommand said:



You say you want a revolution? Well you know, we all want to change the world. 
 

It's a game brother

Edited by Dara MacFadden
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Okay.

 

It's nice to see this thread got the response it deserved, it is even better that a developer shared their point of view on the situation. Thank you for that, @Osvaldon.

Furthermore, the new #development post seems to have given us a timeframe for the updates;

image.png.ce655c4a4631aa6f91490738ffa79dd3.png

Hopefully we can see this added soon. Thank you everyone for your replies 

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On 7/8/2022 at 6:49 PM, alexalex303 said:

I don't think a lack of constant updates can kill a roleplay server that is based around roleplay. The issue is that a good amount of people seem to overly rely on script support for most things.

The fact of the matter is that roleplay is supposed to be about imagination and creating scenarios, the script is more than capable of providing you with endless social interactions, violent interactions and even sexual interactions. 

I suggest looking at yourself and what you can do with what you have, rather than waiting for an update, because no matter how big the update will be, it will only keep you busy for so long, and then you will go back to waiting for the next update. Instead, try to have fun and positive experiences with what you have now, and when an update comes, it will be something extra on top, not the reason why you're playing.

100% agree on what you say. 
altho, i dont think i am the only person here

That wants to know if the drug update will still come trough or not, its not about the months of waiting, that part is fine, its about not receiving any information of the proces…

got me to the point of wondering if the idea got scrapped off or not 

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