PD to Loose Something

[Msato]

29 minutes ago, Jonathan Willowick said:

The few Police Officers than even can take out heavy weapons have put in an extreme amount of time and dedication to their RP on the server. They don't just join the LSPD and have access to a slew of heavy weapons to use. For months even after you join, you are stuck fighting 10+ gang members all stocked with heavy weapons, they got just by joining the gang with a .50 pistol, while the majority of the time you are very outnumbered.

I can't count the amount of scenes I've been at where we have 5 or 6 units and are trying to deal with detaining 1 or 2 suspects, and the next thing you know we have shots being fired at us from heavy weapons from every direction around us by 15+ people. Honestly the majority of the time there is a police/gang shootout, the gang wins the fight because there is only so many police units on duty, and they are unable to come back to the scene because of the NLR to provide further backup to a gang can just take over an area with no repercussions because no police can respond to that area from NLR.

I've also lost plenty from dying on duty because I chose to carry things with me on duty. No different choosing to carry a bunch of things on a criminal activity knowing you have the chance to lose it at some point.

You also talk about things need to be equal, while the majority of the people who are committing crimes are driving maxed out motorcycles and a handful of other vehicles that easily outrun the police in most situations while being equipped with heavy weapons, while the vast majority of officers are driving vehicles that have no chance at keeping up with these things while equipped with a .50 pistol. I can't count how many bikes I see in the city just ignoring all laws because they know they are damn near invincible unless they crash. Personally I think bikes speed should be reduced to get more people using cars and trucks, but still be viable options in areas where there are many narrow corridors to escape, but not as good on long stretches of road.

 

Sorry but in your first statement you mention extreme effort to gain heavy weaponry, this is not 100% true. All officers have to opportunity to gain heavy weapons at PO2, which 95% of officers will reach. As for "joining a gang and getting a big gun" you make it out like official gangs don't have strict recruitment. 

Talking for my gang, we currently hold 7 day ooc trials before they're even invited to be a member on f4, along with ooc rule tests and strict player log vetting. Once you are in the gang, this does not mean instant heavy weapon access. Over the entire server there is below 20 players total who can place orders for this weaponry, whilst I garuntee there is at least 50+ officers equal/Above PO2. 

As for gangs out numbers police, this is due to the simple fact that we learned how to work together, perhaps you should utilise your combined number of 130+ members joint together with PD/SD more efficiently and this would not be an issue. Official gangs are currently limited to 60 members max.

NLR is an issue for gang members more than it is for cops, due to the reason that cops can still return and do their job, interacting with the officers who just watched them die. Whereas as gang members are fully prevented with interacting with anyone involved in the events of their death. 

You state that bike speeds should be powered but the Crown Vic is often seen going 240+ on the right road? Seems like an IC issue that a broke driver is utilising small streets and sharp turns. The most commonly used bike is the drag, which reaches a top speed of 200 in the city unless in very specific areas. Perhaps delpoy your xray/hsu and track the back properly. Throughout many cities such as London, bike crime is an epidemic, this is not a nonrp action to utilise methods that provide benefits over cops. 

Congratulations to the cops who have successfully derailed this topic making it yet another cops vs crims.

Let's move it back to the original topic. 

[Salvador Rivera]

1 hour ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I like this idea, good old NGG days, although I would be concerned about the mentality about these shipments, on one hand I would find it cool that criminals have something else to do, but it also contributes to the cops vs robbers mentality which I am not a fan of. I would enjoy seeing suggestion that decrease gang activity (and expand on gang roleplay and quality) and increase civilian role play too, I fear this suggestion would go against that, but who knows if it's well done it could be good.

Yea back in old days this thing was working pretty good , yea this thing give Criminals a lot of thing to do but from the other side its was really big non RP but if they make something new for this server I would be down for it 

I can't wait to see Armed Force and F.B.I Faction 

Maybe some other 

But we need something new so people have some cool thing to do

[Zion Willard]

Good thing this guy made staff amiright

[JayGamble]

1 hour ago, flow said:

Most of the factions on this server, not all, notably the Zetas for the most part, are ran like crap and have only one thing in mind, fucking shit up. Unless you are willing to make sacrifices in return for changes to the other side, you can put your suggestion back into that bin of jealousy they came from.

hello? what. this is one of the most non sensical, bullshit statements I've heard come out of your mouth. we have literally moved away from the "shoot em up" mentality, and we're still in the business of "all we do is fuck shit up" ? come on dude.

Edited October 25, 2019 by JayGamble

[Phantas]

@flow ''Most of the factions on this server, not all, notably the Zetas for the most part, are ran like crap and have only one thing in mind, fucking shit up.''

Edited October 25, 2019 by Phantas
I attempted to write a meaningful paragraph 3 times but end up deleting it each time after realizing you will never know what goes in the back end of running a gang on this server.

[Rubsmeister]

1 hour ago, flow said:

Point of this being, most of you don't want a fair game, you want a game biased to your playstyle. Most of you want to have the upper hand. Your cry for realism is a disguised cry for a weaker enemy. Most of the factions on this server, not all, notably the Zetas for the most part, are ran like crap and have only one thing in mind, fucking shit up. Unless you are willing to make sacrifices in return for changes to the other side, you can put your suggestion back into that bin of jealousy they came from.

A big thing to say for someone who is a leads a faction that is pioneering the worst type of Law Enforcement RP by mostly consisting of people that just want to win and go around patrolling druglabs and chopshops. On top of that I have never seen anyone from SD fear for their life. Your high horse attitude is laughable and horribly ironic. AND you're a staff member. Insane.

[flow]

29 minutes ago, JayGamble said:

hello? what. this is one of the most non sensical, bullshit statements I've heard come out of your mouth. we have literally moved away from the "shoot em up" mentality, and we're still in the business of "all we do is fuck shit up" ? come on dude.

That was poorly worded, I meant to make a point of saying the Zetas, most notably, are part of the few factions that this does not apply to. My bad Jay

[flow]

27 minutes ago, Rubsmeister said:

A big thing to say for someone who is a leads a faction that is pioneering the worst type of Law Enforcement RP by mostly consisting of people that just want to win and go around patrolling druglabs and chopshops. On top of that I have never seen anyone from SD fear for their life. Your high horse attitude is laughable and horribly ironic. AND you're a staff member. Insane.

Do not even bring this up because this is not an issue SD nor PD have brought about, it is an issue with the development of criminal rp not being supported in a way that would allow for drug labs and chopshops to not be public knowledge, but rather private, faction ran things. We are not at fault for this, you want someone to point fingers at, make a suggestion towards the development of bringing these things away from the way they currently are. You are just angry, for reasons unbeknownst to me. I can't solve your issues.

[Victor Einhart]

What sorts of measures would be taken to prevent abuse?  Right now PD has OOC rules to prevent officers from stacking too many charges or falsely adding charges to somebody.

What similar OOC restrictions would others observe to prevent abuse of law enforcement by rolling into every single arrest, traffic stop, or simple conversation and disrupting their RP trying to bait a fight, other than the server rules?  This is a two-way street, and there's a conversation to be had, but right now my optimism is very low.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Victor Einhart

[Cyrus Raven]

42 minutes ago, Rubsmeister said:

A big thing to say for someone who is a leads a faction that is pioneering the worst type of Law Enforcement RP by mostly consisting of people that just want to win and go around patrolling druglabs and chopshops. On top of that I have never seen anyone from SD fear for their life. Your high horse attitude is laughable and horribly ironic. AND you're a staff member. Insane.

I mean if this is happening then report it. Pretty simple. But I guess shit talking a faction OOC with bogus claims is always better than actually trying to substantiate your point of view.

INB4 links a few reports as a reason to paint the entire faction as bad ayy lmao

[Rubsmeister]

5 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I mean if this is happening then report it. Pretty simple. But I guess shit talking a faction OOC with bogus claims is always better than actually trying to substantiate your point of view.

INB4 links a few reports as a reason to paint the entire faction as bad ayy lmao

Maybe I was a little harsh. The core of my point being that no organisation is perfect. I don't appreciate being told my organisation is "run like shit" when I've poured multiple months of playtime in to ensuring there is good RP for my people and the people that are recruited are of good nature and quality.

When someone who is not involved in the slightest and has no knowledge of what goes on then goes on and says something like this it pisses me off. Maybe thats my fault for caring too much, but perhaps you can also see where I'm coming from.

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, Rubsmeister said:

Maybe I was a little harsh. The core of my point being that no organisation is perfect. I don't appreciate being told my organisation is "run like shit" when I've poured multiple months of playtime in to ensuring there is good RP for my people and the people that are recruited are of good nature and quality.

When someone who is not involved in the slightest and has no knowledge of what goes on then goes on and says something like this it pisses me off. Maybe thats my fault for caring too much, but perhaps you can also see where I'm coming from.

I can, but I think it's fair for PD/SD members to defend themselves when these threads come up talking about realism, but then when we argue that the same isn't applied to criminals (owning businesses, super cars, able to commit tons of crimes with nothing but a fine and jail time as a penalty, etc...) you guys take it as an attack. 

We can have the conversation of realism, but it has to be fair on both sides.

[Msato]

50 minutes ago, Victor Einhart said:

What sorts of measures would be taken to prevent abuse?  Right now PD has OOC rules to prevent officers from stacking too many charges or falsely adding charges to somebody.

What similar OOC restrictions would others observe to prevent abuse of law enforcement by rolling into every single arrest, traffic stop, or simple conversation and disrupting their RP trying to bait a fight, other than the server rules?  This is a two-way street, and there's a conversation to be had, but right now my optimism is very low.

Nice of you to mention this. Not sure if people have noticed or not but these recent shootouts with pd have dropped off a lot. 

Talking for my faction personally, we introduced andl ooc rule restricting these kinds of engagements, and for anyone that does occur they must receive approval from the highest rank online. 

There are a lot of things that go on in the background of criminal factions, management etc. Before you comment on this, please take a moment to explore this side of rp and gain some self experience like many officers have been doing recently. 

Edited October 25, 2019 by CallumMontie

[Marca]

PD has a lot of OOC restrictions and the way law works here in the server, it's very lenient. There are lots of advantages the server gives to criminals, but all of those seem to be taken for granted...

• Easy way to get weapons for official criminal factions
• Jail times are always at base, they never stack up for repeat offenders
• Vehicle licenses are taken away for a few days at best
• Vehicles are never impounded permanently
• No matter your criminal history, you can still own legal businesses
• Homes are safe havens

Those are just a few things that don't make a lot of sense when it comes to RP. If the server would have more serious, permanent consequences when it comes to crime, I would agree with some of the suggestions here. Having your character die should have more consequences to begin with, like being locked inside the hospital for 10 minutes, where you can RP being a patient. 

[alexalex303]

2 hours ago, Marca said:

 

• Easy way to get weapons for official criminal factions
• -Only available after months of not being able to easily get weapons.
• Jail times are always at base, they never stack up for repeat offenders
• -They do not stack up however they are unlimited, so every crime is punished.
• Vehicles are never impounded permanently
• -Unless the cop decides to abuse his power, as it happens when someone shows up without a driver's license but with a friend with a driver's license. Not to mention the insane waiting time at the impound lot.
• Homes are safe havens
• -Homes regularly get raided by both law enforcement and other players

I feel that this entire post is written by someone that's always been a legal character and has very little experience with the daily struggles of a criminal.

[seth]

I apologize if something along these lines has been said, I may have missed it due to all of the arguing. I noticed Jimmy said something about PD potentially losing weapons. I have heard a lot of chatter about this and the instant reply I have always heard is that PD would be targeted. I do not know how prone the server is to adding new rules, but there is already a rule against baiting cops. Couldn't this rule be reworked in some fashion to make players not overtly target PD? This isn't a perfect fix for it by any means, but it at least gives crims some sort of reward rather than their reward being no jail time if a gun fight does not go their way.

[Cyrus Raven]

2 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

I feel that this entire post is written by someone that's always been a legal character and has very little experience with the daily struggles of a criminal.

Can you elaborate on what you feel was incorrect ?

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, GWXCORE said:

Now for an actual suggestion, provide a bit of balance both directions.

 

Cops should have some OOC timed cooldown to pull a heavy from the script, or however they spawn them. 4 OOC hours? More? Less? Should be longer than NLR but shorter than an OOC day.

 

As for criminals, I think vehicles seized during the committing of violent crimes (robbery, murder, anything with a gun pointed essentially)

Should have some kind of OOC cooldown to release from impound. Probably 10hrs OOC or something would be reasonable I think. 

To clarify my biases, I am a full time criminal in a not yet Official gang faction. I have no intention of having a PD or SD alt now, given what I've recently learned about some policies/rules for law enforcement.

Why do you think a cool down on weapons is needed given that from a realism POV a Police force should  be better equipped ?

[Victor Einhart]

34 minutes ago, GWXCORE said:

Cops should have some OOC timed cooldown to pull a heavy from the script, or however they spawn them. 4 OOC hours? More? Less? Should be longer than NLR but shorter than an OOC day.

My question is, what's to prevent abuse of that system?  You could just provoke a fight, kill all the officers, and then you know none of them will have heavy weapons for a long time which means you can act with even more impunity.  Already people will roll up on police and say "drop weapons or die" over the pettiest of situations including traffic stops.

To me, that sounds like a recipe for abuse.  I get that people want consequences but I think this needs to be thought about with care.

[Cyrus Raven]

2 minutes ago, GWXCORE said:

90 percent of cops I see have heavies of some type. They should be better equipped, correct, but not every single fight all day every day. They should have to make a choice, those 2 guys at LSD with pistols only, should I pull my m4 and be a hero? Or do I make a backup call and we go 4 deep with pistols. Especially at LSD lab, too many Terminator cops with rifles and Kevlar because they know they are worth 2 or more gang members in terms of health and damage output.

Just for reference you can only get a shotgun when you are DS2/PO2, then you will only get access to an SMG if you are a SLO/Master Deputy and even higher to access the Carbine. You can get these weapons slightly earlier if you apply for SWAT/SED and even then these divisions and ranks are only suppose to use them if the situation requires it.

Depending on the situation we might use heavies, pistols or just tazers, if you feel like you keep getting engaged with heavies it might be because you are rolling around with a large group, have heavies out , are known to have heavies or have actively engaged in multiple criminal acts.

I think it's unfair to limit PD/SD's capability to retaliate given that the only reason we use heavies in the first place is to match the opposing force's firepower or to compensate for the lack of units VS any given group.

[alexalex303]

9 hours ago, Kyle White Raven said:

Can you elaborate on what you feel was incorrect ?

Check the quote. I added my points after the "-"

[alexalex303]

5 hours ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I think it's unfair to limit PD/SD's capability to retaliate given that the only reason we use heavies in the first place is to match the opposing force's firepower or to compensate for the lack of units VS any given group.

That is the issue that people are trying to address with the proposed heavy restriction. There seems to be a feeling that rather than wait for backup, cops just pull out a carbine and go in. If they only had a carbine every 12 hours, perhaps they wouldn't do that.

[Aldarine]

Reading through some of the comments on this post, one thing that mainly catches my eye is the note of time restrictions. I'm unsure if people are seeing one blatant issue with this. Not only are you suggesting limiting PDs ability to properly respond to criminal activities in the event that a heavy weapon is needed but you are also opening the door to abuse of a time restriction by criminals. What I mean by that is nothing is to stop criminals from taking advantage of a time restriction by baiting PD into a situation where they use their heavy weapon and then an allied organization then later (within the time restriction) beginning a scenario in which PD's most appropriate response would be with heavies and not being able to, due to again, a time restriction. There will always need to be balance and you cannot implement a restriction on LEOs without also having a restriction on criminals to even the scale.

[Cyrus Raven]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

That is the issue that people are trying to address with the proposed heavy restriction. There seems to be a feeling that rather than wait for backup, cops just pull out a carbine and go in. If they only had a carbine every 12 hours, perhaps they wouldn't do that.

Couldn't this be addressed with an update to the fearRP rules instead of limiting the access to weaponry that might be needed ? So if the issue with having heavies is solely because in your eyes you see officers/deputies rushing into situations like rambo, then that would be a failure to value one's life. 

[Aldarine]

20 minutes ago, GWXCORE said:

You may have missed the reason myself and @alexalex303 and others have suggested a time restriction, which is to make cops make a choice.

 

"Do I need my heavy right now? Will a backup call and a pistol suffice? Can I engage alone? Can I afford to wait for backup? Should I put this guy under fearRP? Am I sure he is alone?"

 

Those are the questions I ask myself before robbing someone. I honestly feel like cops can afford to ask less of those questions.

Using a heavy myself and getting clapped to pillbox costs me AT LEAST 20k street price. Plus my pistol, radio, gps, food, any drugs I have. 

 

Cops lose nearly nothing if they make the wrong call

I did not miss the point, I'm simply addressing an overall issue with a time restriction from a different perspective. Having LEOs think smarter about deploying heavy weapons in a situation is one thing but again, taking away the ability to properly respond to a situation where a heavy weapon is needed is another. LEOs need to maintain the ability to deploy a heavy weapon should the situation arise - this is absolutely obvious. Cops should not be put in a situation where they are completely unable to use a heavy weapon due to using one in a prior situation. Should the need arise, they should always be able to use the appropriate weaponry, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Restricting this to a time limit will absolutely cause mayhem and abuse. It's the same as how the 2 hour prison sentience maximum was abused.