You Cannot Use OOC for Scamming

[kenichis]

I think its about time they added a rule about scamming. It just doesn't make sense RP wise. Even if they "give you the keys" that doesn't make you automatically the owner theres still paperwork and if I was scammed IRL and gave the "keys" then I can just report the scam with my paperwork stating that I own the car. Its very poor RP that people are doing this and worse of all they use /ooc chat to trick gullible new players that they are immune to scamming in a NCZ.

I can understand if you get scammed when buying illegal items but it just doesn't make sense to be scammed out of properties and vehicles. The rulebook should reflect this as NRP as it clearly is, have you ever heard of something like this happening IRL? 9/10 the person who drove away in the car would be arrested and charged, the command is OOC and should remain OOC. /transfervehicle abuse needs to stop.

[alexalex303]

No.

If you don't want to get scammed, use Highend or the markers outside the property to sell.

This is caused by greed, because people don't want to pay the tax.

Pay the tax, or risk getting scammed. It's a give and take.

You want to not pay the tax, and have no risk. 

[kenichis]

Just now, alexalex303 said:

No.

If you don't want to get scammed, use Highend or the markers outside the property to sell.

This is caused by greed, because people don't want to pay the tax.

Pay the tax, or risk getting scammed. It's a give and take.

You want to not pay the tax, and have no risk. 

How is that fair? I understand that the markets are always an option but what I am saying is that scamming is poor RP. Its just not very realistic and a lot of new players are suffering because there is no rule for it. And how is using OOC chat to trigger a scam even allowed?

In my eyes your point just makes no sense

[TreMetal]

11 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

No.

If you don't want to get scammed, use Highend or the markers outside the property to sell.

This is caused by greed, because people don't want to pay the tax.

Pay the tax, or risk getting scammed. It's a give and take.

You want to not pay the tax, and have no risk. 

The case he is quoting is a trade car for car, how do you propose someone does this via the high end (assuming neither player has the full value of the cars as cash?)

Also, it is hilarious that you think a 1.5% tax (e.g. 3k on a 200k car) is reason to allow people to scam players and potentially cause them to leave the server as a result of said scam. Fraud is a crime, NCZs should not allow fraudulent activities.  If the server wants some weird tax for item to item trades then there should be a real trading system instead of what is currently allowed, but with current scripts scamming in the NCZ should not be allowed.

Also, generally speaking the person scamming has the car and goads people with offers and does not want to use the high end, rather than the person getting scammed avoiding taxes.  The same guy has been scamming day after day with his mint green elegy(?) and even if you offer to pay the 3% extra he says no and drives away (or says 185 cash or 210k with high end which is like 22k extra for no reason, lol)

Edited August 28, 2019 by TreMetal

[Freclan]

Big +1 definitely should not be allowed, especially in a NCZ

[SaltyPython]

+1. It should not even be allowed to convince someone OOCly to buy a car like that. Lying in /pm, telling someone that they can't scam, and then scamming ICly should definitely count against the rules if it doesn't already.

Scamming in general, IMO, is very poor RP most of the time. Lots of people disconnect after scamming, or they RP doing everything correctly then just drive away. This should probably be addressed, at least.

An introduction of a "car trade" system would be quite good as well, and as someone else mentioned in another thread, the introduction of a "Middle End Market" or more places at High End would be ideal. The reason why a lot of people tend to turn toward trades is because High End is often quite full, not to avoid tax.

[iAchieve]

1 hour ago, alexalex303 said:

No.

If you don't want to get scammed, use Highend or the markers outside the property to sell.

This is caused by greed, because people don't want to pay the tax.

Pay the tax, or risk getting scammed. It's a give and take.

You want to not pay the tax, and have no risk. 

I understand this mentality and get why you think this way. The thing is, I don’t think many fall for scams because they want to avoid tax — that certainly wasn’t my intention when I was scammed (this was a couple months ago). 

A lot of newer players don’t have enough money for anything on low-end, high-end, or the dealership equivalent. They then see expensive cars or even cheaper cars going for lower, but not alarmingly low, prices. Some of these are even advertised in Weazel ads, which gives them legitimacy where there otherwise would be none.

This is where poor RP ensues — many will RP giving keys but have them be fake keys without proof of creating them. Others will sign fake paperwork, get the money, and then just drive off with the car and most likely log off. While there are some good scams, the majority end up like one of those two scenarios I just described.

While I agree that scamming shouldn’t be disallowed altogether, I think that scamming against players with the New Player tag and/or using OOC methods to execute a scam should not be allowed. Not only are they scams only for in-game money, which isn’t the main purpose of Eclipse, but hurt people’s view of our server as a whole.

Edited August 28, 2019 by iAchieve

[Flucifial]

Hey! So most of the situations you're talking about, features people who usually transfer vehicles both ICly with RP commands (ex. /me signs the registration paperwork and hands it to the recipient to sign., /do Would you sign?) which would then have RPly signed registration paperwork over, ontop of the /transfervehicle command. If they don't do any sort of RP then keys, but instruct you to use /transfervehicle OOCly, that's already against the following rule:

Quote

• Players may not scam or deceive other players out of character for their property.

We're not looking to add any rules about IC scamming though. 

 

Hope this clears any confusion! 

[Jasmine]

4 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

No.

If you don't want to get scammed, use Highend or the markers outside the property to sell.

This is caused by greed, because people don't want to pay the tax.

Pay the tax, or risk getting scammed. It's a give and take.

You want to not pay the tax, and have no risk. 

1) There is usually no room on HE

2) There are other reasons people need another way to transfervehicles (ie trading property for property etc.)

3) If the tax really is the ONLY reason the scam rules for cars exist, they could add a command that takes the tax out during a /transfervehicle command. This exists IRL, as buying a car from a friend still requires paying tax.

4) The issue stated was about scamming new players, so they would likely be unaware of HE, the tax, or scamming protection in NCZ...especially if they are being lied to in OOC. 

5) You can blame the new player for not knowing the rules all you want, but it doesnt help the situation. There are plenty of things we teach new players, a ton of IC and OOC info and nuances to the rules. This type of treatment of new players is bad business, and something should be done about it.

6) 88 players online this morning...these types of incidents is part of the reason a lot of new players quit. We are losing otherwise dedicated and committed people to this "its your fault newb!! Stop crying!!" Mentality some people have.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Jasmine

[kenichis]

25 minutes ago, Jasmine said:

6) 88 players online this morning...these types of incidents is part of ghe reason a lot of new players quit. We are losing otherwise dedicated and committed people to this "its your fault newb!! Stop crying!!" Mentality some people have.

Very much agree with your final point. If not to all scamming then there atleast should be a rule that prohibits you from scamming new players, and also to assist those players who are scammed to get back on their feet because so many of them just quit after admins seeming "not caring" because they used the wrong format. While I agree that they should have taken the time to file a proper report most of them don't have the morale to continue playing after their car / house which is usually all they have has been scammed.

[Aldarine]

+1/-1

While I don't think a separate rule should be written, I do think there should be a better way for people to get back what they were wrongly scammed out of separate from the refund request system should they have proper evidence of a rule break. As an example, imagine both parties went through the whole RP process of signing documentation, confirming/handing over the amount of cash (/me opens the briefcase and checks for the agreed upon amount; /do Would there be $XX in legal currency?; /do Yes) and then subsequently gets scammed. If the worth does not meet the refund request minimum, the scammed party has no way of collecting what they lost even though the scammer lied in /do.

[kenichis]

13 minutes ago, Aldarine said:

If the worth does not meet the refund request minimum, the scammed party has no way of collecting what they lost even though the scammer lied in /do.

In that scenario then yes he probably will not receive a refund, although the scamming party would receive a PG offense for lying in /do. Most of these scams happen without any RP though and that really what made me feel that scamming is such a poor RP practice.

[Mopop]

+1 Almost got scammed on my char after first joining, I would have probably quit. Person was acting to eager to sell to me at that moment in cash so I backed off. Later I learned from a rule announcement scamming is allowed...so yeah.

[Mickeyyy]

There is no scamming rule so that there is risk when avoiding tax. It is against the rules to scam new players, especially through OOC methods. Adding a no scamming rule would mean that no one can use methods to avoid tax because then you are scamming the government. Its quite simple to only do deals with people you trust. Even when I was a crim I never did deals outside of my frienda. Anything else was done through the script. 

 

And this isnt me saying sucks to suck for new players. Because it is against the rules to scam them. Some players fail to realize that 85% of this server os criminal RP and most of them are already groups. Its the solo players that get conned. 

[Jasmine]

3 hours ago, Mickeyyy said:

There is no scamming rule so that there is risk when avoiding tax. It is against the rules to scam new players, especially through OOC methods. Adding a no scamming rule would mean that no one can use methods to avoid tax because then you are scamming the government. Its quite simple to only do deals with people you trust. Even when I was a crim I never did deals outside of my frienda. Anything else was done through the script. 

 

And this isnt me saying sucks to suck for new players. Because it is against the rules to scam them. Some players fail to realize that 85% of this server os criminal RP and most of them are already groups. Its the solo players that get conned. 

I get the reasoning behind the lack of a rule. (I dont agree with it, but I understand it.)

That being said, at what point do admins and devs consider something a problem and do something to fix it? 

I believe (as do many others...even some who agree with no scam rules) that this is a problem that should be addressed.

I think most of us agree, the new player experience should not include putting in 30 or 40 hours into the server, finally being able to afford the car you want, and being scammed because the rules are rather muddy, and not well known or understood. (Im still not sure I even understand what is or isnt allowed, or what can be refunded etc).

So...when do we start considering ways to fix it?

Or do we just keep watching new players leave the server over stuff like this...

[Mickeyyy]

3 minutes ago, Jasmine said:

I get the reasoning behind the lack of a rule. (I dont agree with it, but I understand it.)

That being said, at what point do admins and devs consider something a problem and do something to fix it? 

I believe (as do many others...even some who agree with no scam rules) that this is a problem that should be addressed.

I think most of us agree, the new player experience should not include putting in 30 or 40 hours into the server, finally being able to afford the car you want, and being scammed because the rules are rather muddy, and not well known or understood. (Im still not sure I even understand what is or isnt allowed, or what can be refunded etc).

So...when do we start considering ways to fix it?

Or do we just keep watching new players leave the server over stuff like this...

They report the people scamming new players, and the player submits a refund request. It literally comes down to not making deals with people you dont 100% trust. When in doubt use the scripts. Pay the tax. Its negligible. 

[Mickeyyy]

If we make against scamming then it will be against rules to avoid taxes.

[Jasmine]

1 minute ago, Mickeyyy said:

They report the people scamming new players, and the player submits a refund request. It literally comes down to not making deals with people you dont 100% trust. When in doubt use the scripts. Pay the tax. Its negligible. 

Disagree its negligible. And disagree it is such and easy and simple process. Especially for a new player. 

But i copy, you do not think its an issue. And feel nothing should be done. New players just need to figure it out. 

I guess we just disagree is all. No worries.

I will stop responding and see if others have opinions on the matter.

[kenichis]

49 minutes ago, Mickeyyy said:

They report the people scamming new players, and the player submits a refund request. It literally comes down to not making deals with people you dont 100% trust. When in doubt use the scripts. Pay the tax. Its negligible. 

How is this considered good RP? In real life there is no "scripts," its either you get real documents or you don't. Searching for a deal through IC means should be rewarded rather than punished for not using the HE scripts. HE scripts are fast and efficient but they make it so that we avoid interaction with people, looking for a seller for your wants can be fun and scamming just makes it a chore to do.

[Brawnkoh]

Let me preface this by saying we used to have a rule against scamming in NCZ. It was taken out, I believe, because there should be risk to circumventing the scripts.

As far as OOC scamming, it's already a rule. OOCly scamming is not allowed, and theft from new players is not allowed. Perfect example can be found below.

As far as scamming not happening in real life when buying cars. If you spend a couple days on Craigslist trying to purchase a vehicle here in the U.S. You will realize that there are more scammers than you can shake a stick at trying to sell fake cars, cars they don't own, cars that have to be shipped from overseas, cars that are in storage containers. You name it, and you'll find one of them on Craigslist.

Lastly you can RP selling your car at high end, just like you can RP selling it at the bank. It is no different other than using the script to do so. If you want to argue for more slots at high-end, I'm all for it. 

Like it or not, IC scamming is still RP.

[BallinByNature]

OOC scamming is against the rules.

IC scamming is an IC issue and will remain that way.

Thank you for your suggestion.