Changes to Crim Discussion

[RJThompson]

I think what @crank said it literally exactly perfect. 

[Larry Wrzosek]

I see a lot of players saying "i'm bored" and nobody planning or proposing to use their current resources to open up any RP opportunities for the entire new FiveM platform that has 270,000 players on it right now. Surely there will be a lot of new faces soon. The real questions are - How are we going to welcome them as a pre-existing community? What current existing criminal features do we think best represents the fun to be had on ECRP as a criminal? Because we need to showcase that to new players.

I'm going to address one thing right now: The features you may find boring, is exclusive to ECRP. New FiveM players can easily fall in love with ECRP's game mode, the same way a lot of us already have. A lot of FiveM servers are made and rebalanced off of features that are open sourced and the servers piggy back off each others features. ECRP has not done this, we have a lot of one of one features made in house that are better.

Now this being said, there are some open source features that are better than some of our in-house features. Specifically speaking for criminal features: Racing, Boosting, 6-player Heists are all features that need to be improved upon.

However our drug lab system & car chop shop system is one to none. It's been our bread n butter for a long time and if its rebalanced back to what it was when it was first introduced, it was well designed for new players to figure out cooking drugs.

My suggestion is not about making these features more fun for the current players. If you've made drugs for 500 hours on ECRP I cannot erase your mind and provide a new experience. But what I can promise is that if we give some room for some new players to come in and have a good time, new unique RP opportunities will arise. From new gangs being created, to new business opportunities, the influx of new people to recruit to your gang, the fresh blood that actually will DM someone over 50k worth of stuff will be hilarious. My suggestion is to make an easy path for new criminals and at the same time keep it in a controlled space to make it easy for everyone to find the new people to RP with. 

Restructure Public Drug Labs & Public Chop Shops

-All drug labs are constantly active (disable rotations for some time to make this more easily grasped for new players)

7 Drug Lab Locations: Chilliad, Braddox, Sea Lab, North Lab (Hole in the Wall) Garbage, Voodoo, Island

-Make it so there are shelves that restore martials to manufacture drugs at that lab every in-game hour + keep humane labs ingredients for bigger cooking sessions.
(This allows new players to figure out drug recipes more easily and at no cost, promoting more activity at labs)

-Chilliad, Sea Lab, North Lab and Garbage should include all the features of making drugs on tables, public chop shop, and growing of marijuana.

-Braddox will remain for marijuana gathering and drug manufacturing.
-Voodoo will be there to support more drug manufacturing in the southside gang part of LS.

-Island will remain to retain a good lab for gangs to hold down for bigger operations and not have any police intervention (for the most part)

Gangs and Criminals should be more open-minded to interactions with new players

Increase gang member counts by a little bit, we want some new faces to find a home in the current gangs
(Don't increase it too much because we also want new gangs to be created with the new influx of players)

With these changes current ECRP criminals should be more open minded to working alongside the new criminals that come along and put them onto game with any tips or tricks, give them a goal to make 500 cocaine or something then recruit them into your gang. There will be plenty of people interested in making money, if you are a gang leader come up with goals for these new guys to chase after to earn a spot in your gang.

There are a ton of options to be creative and give goals to the new players that want to figure out the criminal features. From drugs, chopped car parts, marked money to small RP jobs like muscle or security for a meeting or a job. Gangs currently have millions to work with. Hire some new players to do something, it will make them feel special and they may grow loyal to your cause if you pick them up early on. Yeah it's usually not needed, but it enhances their experience and makes you look like an OG. Once the move to FiveM is made you should be prepared to offer these opportunities in one or multiple ways as an existing gang. Spread the wealth and opportunity like a wild fire.

If all you are interested in is logging in with your millions and arsenal of guns to shit on new players at labs then you are doing a disservice to the server that has already decided for you to keep your stuff and withhold a multitude of advantages from financial, to experience, to power. This would be something I would suggest the staff team to be enforcing moving forward until the FiveM move is properly established and growing. Enforce less of little rule breaks to new players, and enforce more quality from the senior player base specifically in excessive robbery & killing than normal. 

I can go on further with what features can be implemented or improved but I think this is a realistic work load dev wise as it is simply using all existing features. This requires a little work for a big effect in my opinion so it's a fair ask from both the devs and players. Keep in mind its just a few weeks away so we can't bite off more than we can chew. Do this and atleast new players will have a unique feature that is beneficial to activity, character progression, criminal and PD RP. Rome wasn't built in a day. Eventually down the line finding some new features from other FiveM things could be in the talks. For now tweak what we have that works to be as easily obtainable and for our players to make it as special as possible for a new influx of players.

[EL Doggo]

Make scripts that help faction go in a different direction, for example my goal with locos was to eventually open a taco shop that runs like burger shot, without this being available most of my members get bored and just PvP just to have something to do.

why cant factions be given scripts to create rp

imagine Lost Mc had a repair shop in sandy that worked like benny's. 

OTF had a strip club that people could take packed cash to. (similar to how other servers deal with dirty money.

Rooks had a script to support the Hotel they own, and new players could rent rooms for an early form of housing.

Highrollers had casino like gambling games where players could bet drugs, cars, houses, guns.

Shadows had a script/ability to make explosives like c4 and grenades to further their terrorism story line without needing admins or staff.


Is it a lot to ask for... YES, but will it create more rp and push factions away from PvP....YES. Does the server make enough money to make such things happen for fiveM....YES









 

[YasinByn]

4 hours ago, Lewis said:

How do we become less asset focused and more focused on roleplay?

* Weapons should last a maximum of two weeks, and the import prices for weapons and body armor should be significantly reduced. This should apply to every gun, all imported weapons would expire after 2 weeks and need to be imported once again. Weapon durability should also be removed and replaced with a timer if this does happen. 

* We should consider adding private labs. There's really nothing to lose by trying them. Maybe make them limited somehow

* Increase the payouts for chop shops and house robberies. Right now, the only activity that's truly worth doing is cooking drugs.

* Significantly increase the payout for chopping police cruisers and selling their parts.

* Have more higher staff members who main as criminals.

* Reduce DOC time and fines significantly

Edited 22 hours ago by YasinByn

[YasinByn]

20 minutes ago, EL Doggo said:

Make scripts that help faction go in a different direction, for example my goal with locos was to eventually open a taco shop that runs like burger shot, without this being available most of my members get bored and just PvP just to have something to do.

why cant factions be given scripts to create rp

imagine Lost Mc had a repair shop in sandy that worked like benny's. 

OTF had a strip club that people could take packed cash to. (similar to how other servers deal with dirty money.

Rooks had a script to support the Hotel they own, and new players could rent rooms for an early form of housing.

Highrollers had casino like gambling games where players could bet drugs, cars, houses, guns.

Shadows had a script/ability to make explosives like c4 and grenades to further their terrorism story line without needing admins or staff.


Is it a lot to ask for... YES, but will it create more rp and push factions away from PvP....YES. Does the server make enough money to make such things happen for fiveM....YES

yes this would be amazing

Edited 23 hours ago by YasinByn

[AtlasOLimbo]

I am struggling to wrap my brain around the point of this thread. There is nearly a decade of backlogged suggestions, lots with extensive support from the community. These focused threads have been made before and gone nearly nowhere, with maybe one update stemming from them with a fraction of the suggestions implemented.

We can sit here around the campfire and discuss as long as we please, but until there is some level of content steadily added to the server, it all amounts to nothing. With that being said, I will try and echo some of the points that've been said here.

The level of equipment used on the server needs to be toned back. It's not fun. Everyone's basically a militia, including what are meant to be 'low level street gangs'. Gangs should be encouraged and rewarded for partaking in 'canon equipment' (shitty vehicles, sidearms, that kind of thing.) Heavy weapons need to go back to being expensive and heavy. I believe the reason they were modified was to counter PD's level of kit. That's a separate issue which I think has been discussed in the PD thread plenty.

There needs to be stronger enforcement of RP standards and expectations as well. I have raised this before, but the amount of contrast between most factions & their lore/threads is actually astonishing. 

DOC has already been gutted into the ground. We need some kind of consequence for crime. DOC needs more content, not to be made even easier to get out of.

[Ritchie Stones]

its fucking straight foreward, when crims make 10X their investments, crime rockets through the roof, and cops have suddenly a lot of better things to do then pulling over speeding cars giving tickets.

2021, crims cook in their houses, and then they just BLOW IT ALL. city was nuts!!
they where asshole people though.

you guys overcomplicate everything, you just need a gold rush, and people tune in, and it causes problems,
"controversial problems" and we love to hate it, its like a horrible accident, we know its bad but we keep watching anyway, accept that, where oppertunity is big, problems occure, and it draws in alot of people that come with their own character and story causing everything you dont like.
its psychological. stop being 16 year old 
 

Edited 22 hours ago by Ritchie Stones

[Masonc3434]

4 hours ago, Carl Vespucci said:

 - Ramming cars as players are getting out before a gunfight starts. This has become the meta and its horrible and someone guaranteed doesn't get to participate. 
Solution: Add it to the rules, people should only be hit by cars if they are in the path of escape.

- Fully automatic weapons being shot from vehicles - keeps fights in cars and no longer gives any reason to hop out, if you bring enough bullets, you can just follow someone and fire into them until their car explodes. 
Solution: Automatic weapons should not be fired from vehicles

- It should be encouraged to often have weekly wars ,sadly the war system is currently not working but I think this would end alot of beefs between gangs.
Solution: Rehaul the war system to make it a weekly thing people can look forward to all week to logging in, maybe something less strenuous then our current 3 day war system.
 

- Steroids are OP and I know we abuse that as criminals.
I've heard many things about the business/food update. Put in an equivalent to steroids in legal form such as an expresso shot or a coffee that has the same effect. 

 

How do we become less asset focused and more focused on roleplay?

The only way I see this happening is to make guns worthless. Fights usually occur over guns and drugs, and if they have no value then they no longer become an asset, but its also what makes the dopamine flow. 

This is spot on whats needed.

[Doctor_Diddler]

Considering my previous post is more relevant here (and I reiterate, I had no reason to believe any thread about crim RP would be coming since it's never been asked - part of the problem thjat), I'll do some reposting and add on:

Quote

Which brings me to my next point; there shouldn't be giant, city-spanning wars with law enforcement. So many rules are put into place from a faction-side because it's untenable without them. In a balanced system, cops should be something everyone wants to avoid altogether because they serve as the endpoint for supplies like drugs, guns, armor, etc. Police do not want your drug lab to make drugs, they want to shut it down. Fighting for a drug lab is a driver of crim rp and warfare. fighting with police is a one-time affair that ends in complete wipeout for one side or the other. You can't build a functioning system on one faction getting repeatedly wiped out entirely in the span of 30 minutes - who wants to keep RPing after they got slaughtered and now can't go anywhere in the city without getting hounded? Other gangs SHOULD be the primary conflict driver between gangs. Not police. If the server had more people, this would likely be less of a problem, but we can't fix the past.

Quote

Server should be focused on trying to make gang warfare the ultimate focus of crim gameplay outside of isolated crime. Sooo much dev time has been wasted on the faction war system that was shuttered when it was realized it was horrifically implemented (see: Pulling and then leaving ATM's, robbing your own bank so the other faction can't) and short-sighted. Wars become extremely lopsided affairs and turn into absolute jokes where one side is getting butchered by the other helplessly because the server has congregated around a small number of gangs that dominate everything. Nobody wants to start a small street gang on their own - why bother? You can't do jack shit. So any newcomer just ends up in the same factions inorganically, of which a select few have a massive advantage that makes inter-gang fighting trivial. This, is turn, means that gangs start fighting the police instead.

• I honestly think it would be better if some gangs were just persistent and your character were forced to stay there. I know this is an RP-light server, but being able to move your assets (like guns you own, for example) to another faction is what enabled a few mega-gangs to dominate in warfare and make it so consistent criminals end up going from local latino street gang to italian gangster. There is no gang identity. The RP aspect is limited to wearing the same colors while you drive around in multi-million dollar cars. 
• I think at this point an asset wipe is necessary and care should be put in place to dramatically slow power creep down. I know the credit sales were a big money maker but they also dramatically fucked the meta with the inclusion of cars like the niobe. The inclusion of NPC cars will put less emphasis on speed over driving. Use it. 
• There's nothing to do except farm assets. Many of the crim systems do not promote conflict with other gangs at all. This is something even GTAO mastered - the biggest strength of a server is interaction between people. Comped drops are the closest we get to inter-faction conflict and other gangs are almost never involved. 
• Drugs. Part of the reason why the taser-from-car epidemic started was steroid abuse. People will flagrantly avoid firearms in their face and just down every drug in their pocket so they can outrun everyone, which makes them an extreme liability to not knock out if they keep resisting arrest because you have no chance at catching them. LEO has no equivalent, so if you want to promote asymmetrical but balanced gameplay, there has to be some answer other than "lol good luck". 
  
  This is most noticeable when it comes to shooting. 100 AP + drugs is just barely under 150AP (reserved for SWAT + special detective/STAFF outfits) and no drugs, along with zero recoil. With a weapon that deals more damage like the heavy rifle, crims have a flat out advantage in foot combat. especially against the schmucks not yet in a division. Fortunately, law enforcement had an answer to mass gang attacks; gunship  nevermind, how about you just try hoping you never get into a gunfight.
  
  Hopes and dreams don't make balance and they certainly don't make it more fun for anyone but the people that log in once a day in the ass-end of the night to ambush cops. 
• Ditching your expensive car to go swimming because you know you can easily dodge a chase is stupid for obvious reasons. Either increase the impound price (not recommended as everyone would suffer) or stop water pursuits (which have their place). Of course, I have a third option here. 
• Remove reports replacing assets. This has created the absolute fucking worst type of people who will report every interaction and mistake to ensure they don't lose their guns. Tell them to kick rocks, instead. The admin oversight on this server won't be feasible if the server is more successful, so you may as well get used to it for anything but bugs and obvious cheaters. 
• Create more structured paths into criminal RP. As I mentioned in my last post on the LEO topic, it's impossible to tell how you're supposed to start a fresh crim character without asking a bunch of people, which is stupid prima facia; "Hello, where can I go to commit crimes?" The only MMORPG dumb enough to try and introduce mechanics with zero oversight was Fallout 76, and they walked that back quickly when it became obvious having nothing but interaction with other people was not suitable to teaching. 
  
  This could be a single text message upon making a character to visit 3 NPC's that give basic rundowns of LEO, CIV, and Crim activities.  You want to keep it all IC. Great. Nobody is going to sit down and explain that you need to go to a car chop at Chiliad and then sell your parts to certain NPC's unless they like you,  which they won't because you're new.
• Interact more with crims. If you're going to run a cartel and try to control other factions through imports, why not take advantage? The way it's currently set up, to my understanding, is that gangs and illegal factions are forced to do the same things like protect turf, rob banks, etc. to maintain power. That's stupid. The RP restrictions keep more creative and interesting endeavors from happening. Let me give you an example: After reading my favorite nonfiction mob tales, I decide to create a faction modeled after Murder, inc. We don't kill cops, we stay out of the limelight, and we don't protect turf. Our only turf is a grubby office building front. We take contracts from gangs and serve as mercenaries in wars but we don't get into fights ourselves. It is the opinion of this server that this faction is functionally worthless. So are racing gangs. Want a break from PVP? How about more PVP? 
• Server events. Holy fuck this seems so obvious. You could take naked inspiration from GTAO. Right now events are super rare and only offered by high tier staff which means even good ideas get filtered through bureaucracy. I know I complained about PVP a second ago but just as an example of an event I proposed once: Humane has begun a limited-trial steroid in very small numbers that is rumored to increase run speed (more than normal ones or something - it doesn't really matter). I, shady criminal man, want that drug so we can try to duplicate it. Every crim in the city is alerted to the transport and everyone converges on it. If you have it, you can choose to keep it or sell it. Smaller gangs can get more frequent events while larger ones get less useful awards to keep it more balanced between the gangs. One gang getting a little too strong? Now there's a bounty out on them coming from our shadowy underlords. Damn the possibilities are endless. It can't be that hard to think of something if I can just spit them out so easily. 
• Disincentivize large-scale shootouts. Idk if Fivem will fix this, but the server flat out can't handle giant, 12v12 confliots. It literally c0's everyone involved, so they shouldn't be encouraged. While I'm on the subject, just remove running into properties for gunfights. It only encourages script abuse because everyone puts their gun on their back upon spawning in, leading to one-sided shootouts with no counterplay. 
  
  This is a screenshot of a raid I wasn't involved in and I drew shitty paint.net boxes onto it to show just how you could easily abuse the script to never lose a fight again. Add in a door to the left and it becomes an easy killbox. We run in and hide and my modern art wood furniture blocks both your bullets and your eyesight while I freely shoot your legs. The only reason this doesn't happen is because nobody has really tried it, but the problem with it is obvious. 
• I'll probably have more later.

Edited 21 hours ago by Doctor_Diddler

[TheConfusedSquid]

1. New Player Experience for Criminals

I feel like the early criminal experience is more difficult than it needs to be for new players, and by new players, I mean people who are either new to the server or new to criminal RP in general. For example, my main is in PD and there is a very straightforward path to follow as a new player. You find a cop, you ask how to apply, you go through that process, and then have a structured way to learn everything. Enjoyable experience.

However, on my crim character, it's been the opposite. When trying to learn how to be a criminal, you either have to learn by guessing (usually resulting in being caught and getting set back even further), or you have to try asking around for help and hope that people don't take advantage of you for being new, which I unfortunately have seen a lot of. Unenjoyable experience.

I've been told about some gangs who are great at helping new players learn criminal RP, specifically Lost, but for some people, it may not fit their crim character's lore to join a gang. There should be ways for new people to learn criminal RP outside of gangs. I don't know if there is some way to provide people with an optional tutorial or something similar that teaches the basics, but anything that can provide more guidance would be helpful, especially as we prepare for more new players as we move over to FiveM. We don't want to get a massive influx of new players only for them to leave after a few weeks because they don't understand how to play crim or because they get killed when asking for help.

 

2. Content Variety

I've been playing on Eclipse for just over a year, and in that time, I feel like there hasn't been much new content added in terms of jobs or criminal opportunities. @Eliza said it very well when they said:

Quote

"I also think part of the issue is that there just isn’t much for criminals to do outside of stores, banks, ATMs, chopping cars, or cooking drugs. Once you’ve done those activities over and over, people start creating their own content, and unfortunately that often ends up being gang wars and constant shootouts because there aren’t many other engaging criminal activities to encourage different kinds of roleplay."

To add to that, there's not a ton of criminal opportunities for people who want to do crime on their own (whether that be lore related or based on the time of day that they play). Most crimes require multiple people (whether script reasons or safety reasons), which really inhibits the solo crim experience.

I'll also adding more opportunities (even if it's only 2 or 3 things) would help not just the criminal experience, but also the LEO experience. LEOs aren't just stuck patrolling around labs and other common areas for gangs waiting for something to happen. They get more calls to respond to, which in turn gives more freedom for crims to operate. Additionally, more opportunities gives crims more variety in their gameplay instead of doing the same couple things that they have been doing for years.

I'm also going to briefly mention the civilian side of things. New content would also be a great addition for people who don't want to play crim, join a government faction, or a mechanic shop. It would also be helpful for a crim players who want a crim/civilian balance. Just an extra point that I wanted to throw out.

 

3. The Grind

I'm not going to spend a ton of time on this aspect since I don't have a lot of crim experience, but it is a common trend that I've noticed not only in this thread but also from conversations I've had with people OOC. If people want to make any progress, they have to spend dozens of hours grinding away. This also ties into the asset focused mentality that a lot of people have. They do all of the grinding only to lose it during one interaction with either LEOs or other crims. I'm a big fan of what @Jaxxon said previously in this thread about the grindy nature of the server.

 

Conclusion

Addressing all of those points I mentioned would help with long term retention with not only new players but also current. Content variety and the grind is something that a lot of current players are frustrated with, and the new player experience paired with the grind is something that we need to be conscious of if we want to keep any new players.

Thanks for the opportunity to share my perspective, and I hope you all have a fantastic day!

[tigerpet15]

I would say the biggest issue is script it self. During my time as criminal most of the fun unique rp was impossible to do due to rules and little support for alt rp. 
 

I believe the server is relying too on its script so it makes everyone unable to be creative. I believe if there would be wayyy higher alt rp support players would be able to come up with creative rp other than holding labs. I would be for removal of alt rp requests and allow it when its not breaking any other rules or have anyone support + be able to allow it giving staff some control over the rp. This way crims could be creative and acrually use /me and /do to rp something cool. 
 

lets stop relying so heavily on the script. 

[Jack Falken]

Introduction and Mentality

Coming from someone who mainly plays a character who rides a thin line between civilian and criminal, doing civilian activities by day and rolling labs and chopping by night trying my best not to get caught by pd/sd (recently failed at that for the first time gg SD I'll get my gun back in 3 months) This suggestion will be coming from a side of not only what can we change about Crim but the server in general to help improve it as Criminal or LEO are not the only problems but a part of a much larger issue.

There is severe lack of competent rp from criminals when it comes to labs and "high crime zones". I was recently held at gunpoint by someone who was a "friend" for over 25 minutes as the only rp we got was him telling us to sit and if we moved we'd die, he then spent 25 minutes cooking all of our materials in the lab before shooting out our tires and leaving. Zero interaction, zero rp, no words spoken just sitting afk watching him cook is a terrible experience that makes you never want to hit labs ever again, and this unfortunately happens often to smaller groups/solos ruining the criminal experience all together, a mentality of I want what you have and I don't care about anything but taking it no matter the cost. Said person was quickly removed from the community for doing such low quality and unsavory rp to multiple people and groups.

Private Chops

Private chops are extremely noisy, take way too long to dismantle making them extremely risky and the money you actually make requiring a crew of 2+ people most of the time is insulting and makes private chops all but worthless unless you're a gang in need of parts for a war or to keep dealers happy. I can spend an hour driving around finding a vehicle, stealing it, driving it all the way to either a private chop or public chop up north constantly in fear of even seeing a pd/sd cruiser as they spot the chop car and recognize it as a chop car and pull an instant U-turn to follow me until the plate says stolen just to lose everything over what might have been me making 7k cash for that hour after splitting the money. I can sit at benny's making more an hour never getting arrested or committing a crime so why should I take the risk?

Public Labs

Public labs became a place to meet gangs to a place where your just a free rob, I remember when I first joined ECRP my friends and I were chopping cars and selling the parts to Lost as they were in a war with Rooks and needed them. Chase Vincero the absolute G rocks up in a 4 stacked Kamacho and sees us chopping at Chiliad and asks if we're selling the parts to Lost and instead of just robbing us for the parts and leaving us dead or naked and bitter, offered to pay us more if we brought the parts to him instead. That kicked off an entire relationship between my character and Rooks where I would do crime and bring my drugs and parts to Rooks for money and Chase eventually giving me a recommendation to join a gang of which I took up, hell the man personally took me around in his vehicle and gave me a masterclass on everything you need to know to cook, something of which I've done and passed on to newer players myself.

PVP/Rob Mentality

You walk into a lab now and three gang members with shotguns, heavies and AP rush you, get your out of your vehicle strip you naked and tell you to run away on foot with zero escalation or reasoning behind it besides a toxic mentality of steal everything you can fuck everyone that's not one of your own instead of trying to make connections and cooperate with people. Being on the flip side of that the amount of times I've been cooking and had someone come into the lab and ask if I'm cooking and I say yes, ask if they want to join me and take turns cooking and we get 2-3 different gangs all hanging out in my lab taking turns cooking and just vibing has happened quite often as I don't approach people with a toxic mentality of rob or die. Cooperation between gangs is where real money can be made instead of approaching every situation with this pvp robbing mentality many people seem to be stuck in.

Recent Content and Drought

Lack of new content and recently added content being too grindy or shallow is an issue I've seen too many times recently where the devs finally release an update or a brand new activity and it's half finished, not polished and requires hundreds of hours of grinding to max out. A perfect example is the replacement of the freelance jobs with the new job leveling system, I ground close to 60 hours in trucking within the first week to get to level 52, we calculated if you don't take any breaks you can earn a level roughly every hour in the new freelance jobs but with food, drink, selling, fuel, rp, repairs and not the mention stuff that takes time away from grinding outside the server you're looking at closer to 150-200 hours to max a SINGLE skill. When Archeology came in, it was buggy, and only had the first location of like 5 actually implemented meaning once you hit level 25 there was nowhere to go as the second area at the park was heavily bugged and items couldn't be dug up half the time and the only alternative was the graveyard where every dig is a potential felony charge. Or how about Chemistry a skill with only 3-4 perks one every 25 levels that we were told more levels would be added to it that would do stuff like decrease cooking time, make drugs effects last longer or make it so you could sell them for more profit. It's been so long and they've added a ton more skill levels and still have not gone back to add anything more to chemistry.

The Issue With ECRP

I always hear people talking about how amazing private cooking tables were, why can we not have the ability to pay an npc a certain amount of money to add a lab to my apartment of say 5 tables, but they take much longer to cook, instead of 135 seconds per drug, make it 300 seconds per drug. That way I can make a grand total of.... 60 drugs an hour where as in a public lab I can cook roughly 428 drugs in that same time with 15 tables at 2.1 minutes per drug if I'm making LSD and Ecstasy at the same time. That would be me making $32,000 an hour in my private lab compared to roughly $256,800 an hour in a public lab if uncontested. I would need to cook 10 hours in my apartment to equal one hour in publics but the risk is next to zero and would allow me to have a type of PASSIVE criminal income which is a massive thing that could solve a lot of the issues with ECRP. Right now everything in ECRP costs a TON of money, a single repair can run me 7k, eating food twice an hour costs me 3-4k, fuel costing me 1500, ammo, guns, radios, don't even bring up furniture and that all adds up to constantly losing money.

That is why ECRP is asset focused, you need to be constantly grinding money to keep up with the drain of just playing, let alone being a criminal and losing 100k+ per kit every time they get arrested or killed which can take tens of hours of grinding to make back if you work a legal job or hours of afk grinding labs to make back kits. If we had ways of making a PASSIVE income people will put way less time and effort and emphasis on constantly grinding ACTIVE INCOME. The best part of being new to ECRP is you basically can rely on the 1k an hour you get from gov until your tax bracket begins to rise and you make less and less money both from working jobs with an unrealistically high 35% tax rate as the server punishes you just for progressing to the lowered insulting 100 an hour passive income from gov at that same tax bracket which if you're at the point you're being taxed 35% gov shouldn't be paying you anything anymore in the first place. There is no world where I should go from making 7k an hour after tax to buying a house and suddenly now I only make 4550 an hour.

Changes We Need to See

We need gangs to more strictly stick to their lore and have a less pvp, rob mentality when going into labs or areas of crime the name of the game is cops vs robbers, not robbers vs robbers featuring cops, cooperation allows for rp situations, arms deals, trades, a black market, a criminal underworld. Yes gang beef will happen but once the situations resolved don't keep beefing and purposely targeting each other you're not children the enemy is pd/sd. What happened to Rooks being the businessmen of the criminal world doing deals and navigating politics, or Bratva being the cities Russian main chemical importer using their chemical imports to make dealings with other gangs and people in the city, each gang should have their own specific lore imports that are locked from other gangs, if those gangs want those items, do deals and trades, setup dead drops and use the tools we're given like the new criminal apps. That gives pd and gang and narcotics and detectives rp to do, investigations to conduct to try and compromise those dealings, raid warehouses and breakup dealings and labs.

We need some form of PASSIVE income available for criminals, civilians and cops that makes grinding assets less of a main focus. Ideas such as owning assets that pay you a % of their worth like stocks or owning companies giving you a certain amount of passive income to help run them depending on the type of business or private labs making a comeback but with drawbacks like higher cook times like 300 seconds per drug that can earn you income passively so you're not pressured to constantly grind assets and can give more effort to creating rp, the old DOJ server let every player pick their salary range and they earned that passively allowing them to work for RP reason and not to earn money specifically. That way playing is not about asset grinding but creating and maintaining rp without needing to grind.

Taxes need to be looked at and touched, the server should not be punishing those who play and progress on it instead of rewarding dedication and time.

Activities already implemented need to be overhauled and relooked over, freelance job exp requirements lowered or exp upped as it takes hundreds of hours to grind a single skill. Existing skills should also be looked at and rebalanced and all skills added and fleshed out, an upgrade every 5 levels people should want to do freelance jobs for fun not to grind hours upon hours for the same amount of money sitting at a mechanics would give.

The attitude towards newer players should be to help drive them forward and educate them rather than see them as easy prey, like come on guys a new player may try to rob you with a knife or try to search your trunk but use that as learning experiences, kidnap them and shave them instead of just gunning them down and walking away. And if they ask for info or help give it, we are the seniors and we are their role models, adult up and act like it.

Edited 18 hours ago by Jack Falken

[Bala]

Based on the current situation that ECRP finds itself, the pragmatic view would be to make peace with the idea that the server is coming to an end and rather than waste our time and energies trying to fight what seems inevitable, we probably would all be better served, quietly accepting that and spending what time ECRP has left having a good time.

When I heard we were being forced to move to FiveM, my first instinct was that it's over. Going from RAGE where we were even at our worst, a decent attraction to being put on a platform with 200 servers just like us, that's a tough ask. After spending some time on FiveM, I realised that actually the possibilities, if we made the right decisions, are endless.

I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to see a continuation of this verision of ECRP on FiveM, because as much as I love ECRP, this version of ECRP sadly kinda sucks. The way forward for ECRP would be to view the migration to FiveM as a fresh start and a new beginning for people. But, the last 3-4 years has taught us, we probably cannot change enough, quickly enough to escape this black hole we've made for ourselves.

I don't personally have really any thing negative thing to say about the criminal player base, if I'm honest. In fact, I'm actually lowkey amazed that some of you have stuck around as long as you have with the environment you've had to play in and I commend you for it.

I've seen all sorts of suggestions in this thread. Re-adding private labs, introducing the rule of six, removing reports for assets. All kinds of ideas, the forum is full of them. But they're devoid of an actual overall strategy. They're bandages, quick fixes.

For me, it's more than that. The fact that these discussion threads about cops and crims are separate, sums it up for me. They are the two foundations of any roleplay server and they're basically two halves of the same coin. Continuing to view them separately when they're linked will continue to get us absolutely nowhere.

Fundamentally, what do you change with the move to FiveM, particularly with what effects crims?

THE TLDR Version

• Focus the players in LS but give crims space to do illegal shit without two departments breathing down their necks.
• Put the casino shit in Tequil'la and make it a NCZ again.
  Give crims a meeting spot to socialise where no one is at risk of dying for being there. New players would love it.
• Make basic criminal activities like chops and labs more accessible to do, like they were in 2019.
  Labs, you can buy all the mats you need on site. Small labs allow for shit drugs to be made but factions can't go and gank people there. Big labs allow for the best drugs to be made, they are a free for all.
  Chops, on rotation, with a timer. If your vehicle has enough still attached to it, you can drive away if the cops/ops come.
• Involve cops more dynamically in crim activities.
• Redo prison times, to have reasonable jail sentences, without VIP devaluing the whole thing.
• Change the banks from Fleeca to the bigger scale banks which offer less tunnel vision and would hopefully lessen the amount of bullshit.
• Make stealing a car more fun and easier.
• Change the attitude to PVP.
• Remove the biggest OP weapons but allow people to import the others as much as they can.
• Add server generated random crim content that presents crims with on the spot activities. 
• Remove steroids, they're broken.
• Cap the vehicle speeds at 200 km/h. Trust me, with the NPC drivers, you'll not want to go much faster.

Above is just some of the ideas but it follows the jist.

Also, if you're not actually going to do shit, stop asking for feedback. The more you do it and don't follow through, the less people trust you.

Oh and encourage faction leaders to sort their differences out between themselves where possible. Faction Management doesn't need to be the centre of the universe, just dip in and out where it's needed if people can't be adults and come to reasonable terms.

Edited 17 hours ago by Bala

[Earl Mud]

I just want to add one last thing. 

This is our last chance to set us up for success after the migration. Everybody from regular players all the way up to the devs needs to step up, set aside differences and egos, and try to make shit enjoyable and be ready to test and try new things. 

We have had so many threads about the wavering numbers and issues even since I joined 2 years back with plenty of ideas to pull from. We gotta stop sitting on our asses and start making moves so the few left can test stuff out to make it clean before the move. Not every idea needs 100 approval chains through stagnant bureaucracy. I understand caution when it comes to changes but stagnation will never fix things and bleed more people out.

Take this shot and take it fast cause time is ticking. I'm sure the people still logging in won't mind getting a bunch of ideas and implementations tossed at them and changed over and over to see what works and what doesn't in hopes of pushing the server a better direction.

 

[padpilot]

Ain't OTF got a Head Admin in their gang? 

Dont we have official Gang Leaders who also roleplay as cops arresting rival gang members?

And yall wonder why the server is toxic, really? 

It should be plain as day at this point.

 

EDIT: Also yall need to really start listening to Bala. Only staff that has continuous unbiased takes and genuine solutions. 

Edited 15 hours ago by padpilot

[Frewer]

One of the biggest frustrations is that when the developers really want to get something done, they prove they can do it quickly. The new phone that everyone had been asking for took, what, three days? People can debate the process all they want, but the reality is that it happened. That just makes it feel like content arrives in random bursts depending on how the developers feel on any given morning, rather than through any consistent plan. As Bala said, we’re constantly promised features and improvements, yet a huge number either never arrive or show up a year later when most people have already lost interest. Criminal players have felt neglected for a long time and whenever concerns are raised, the response often feels like, “If you don’t like it, someone else will replace you.” Maybe that worked years ago, but it doesn’t reflect where the server is today. I’m considered a “Legend,” which means I’ve donated far more money than I’d like to admit because I’ve genuinely enjoyed the community and made some great friends here. Lately though, it feels like continuing to pay for VIP just makes me part of the problem. The server continues to receive money through New Year and Summer sales, yet the players don’t feel like they’re getting meaningful development in return. This isn’t about placing all the blame on the developers because everyone understands that real life comes first. The issue is making promises that either can’t or won’t be delivered. I’d also say the staff have done everything they reasonably can within the rules. We’ve had countless community meetings and threads like this appear over and over again, yet we’re still having the exact same conversation. There’s a saying in football: “Leave the football before the football leaves you.” I’m starting to fear that the football has already left us. Maybe it’s time to seriously consider outsourcing some of the server’s development, because the current approach clearly isn’t delivering the consistency that the community has been asking for.

[Osborn]

Adding another 24 hours to this discussion, in line with the discussion length of the LEO thread.

We have a Senior Meeting scheduled for Thursday to discuss and prepare for the FiveM migration from a staff perspective. However, given the volume of posts in these two discussion threads, we may need to schedule a separate meeting dedicated specifically to them to allow for a more in-depth discussion.

Thank you all for keeping this discussion respectful and civill. 

[YasinByn]

13 hours ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

The level of equipment used on the server needs to be toned back. It's not fun. Everyone's basically a militia, including what are meant to be 'low level street gangs'. Gangs should be encouraged and rewarded for partaking in 'canon equipment' (shitty vehicles, sidearms, that kind of thing.) Heavy weapons need to go back to being expensive and heavy. I believe the reason they were modified was to counter PD's level of kit. That's a separate issue which I think has been discussed in the PD thread plenty.

True. Remove the heavy weapons, make ap only 50 and get rid of all the drugs like steroids and that stuff. The only consumable should be blunts for healing. 

[Requiem]

There are two topics that I feel are the largest contributing issues to criminals currently: Mentality & Content

These two topics feed off of each other. There is a lack of new and exciting content for criminals, so criminals instead fall back to the only things they can find to do - grinding and PVP. Grind labs and banks to make money and upkeep their turfs so they can in turn import the weapons and kits they need to PVP. 

Content

Problem: Lack of new content for criminals for extended periods of time leads to players becoming bored of stale and unbalanced content. 

Solution: Getting criminals new content they can participate in that is fun, new, and exciting rather than the same boring stuff they have been doing for years. This is primarily a development topic, but the staff team could help bridge the gap by providing events for criminals with something different than the same usual grind - both FM/meridian and events team could work on this. Additionally, some content such as chopping, store robberies, house robberies, etc need a rework/rebalance to make them more worthwhile to do.

Mentality

Problem: I've heard from so many different criminal players that one of the biggest things that demotivates them from wanting to participate in crim RP is the toxic behavior and report mentality from criminals. The majority of PVP situations seem to end up on the forums as reports for people to try and get a refund for their items or to get OOC revenge against someone they have an issue with to try and get them punished. Additionally, IC shit talk is mostly fine and has its place, but shit talking someone to the degree some people do when they injure them in a gun fight before finishing them doesn't need to be happening. Also toxic behavior such as shooting out vehicle tires of people that died in a fight. 

Solution: Refunds should only be given for cheating or server side bug issues. It sucks to lose items to a rule break, but its better for mentality and long term server health to just remove this possibility. Shooting out someone's tires when they were already killed in a fight or taking shit talking to an extreme for someone who you have already injured and about to finish should be considered an OOC toxicity rule break. 

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Other smaller issues that should be addressed:

Swimming

Problem: Criminals too often resort to swimming either away from other criminals in a fight or from police in a chase. Between the terrible desync or lack of any counterplay to this essentially free escape most of the time, this strategy creates problems and lack of proper RP interaction.

Solution: When engaged in a fight or chase, NO ONE should be allowed to swim under any circumstance. 

Zergging/Numbers

Problem: The meta for gangs is to recruit as many top tier PVP players and as many numbers as they can to overwhelm other gangs or police where ever possible. This pulls focus away from proper RP and fun and to min maxing the possibility of winning any situation with sheer numbers. This also creates complaints about police bringing too many numbers as a reaction. This becomes significantly worse during off-times, either early morning or late at night when criminals take advantage of low police numbers and constantly ambush them for a free win, but won't do the same during peak server times. 

Solution: Limit the number of players that can be involved in any hostile situation and rework/remove the backup rules to let smaller groups work together and ally with one another. 

New Player Experience

Problem: The new player experience is terrible for new criminal players. There is no tutorial to show them how to do anything or how the mechanics work of any given criminal activity. On top of this, most gangs have no incentive to help new players or bring them in due to putting themselves at risk of the newer player breaking rules or being inexperienced at PVP. 

Solution: Scripts, tutorials, guides, etc are needed for new players, mostly on the criminal RP side. Something that will show them how the mechanics of at least basic criminal scripts work (ATMs, Stores, House robberies, chopping, labs, etc). FM should find ways to encourage/reward gangs for taking in and helping new players get involved in the server. 

VIP/Prison Time

Problem: There is a HUGE gap in prison times between someone with debt and no VIP vs a player with high end (diamond/royal) VIP. Some players I've recently seen go into prison with 300 minutes of prison time, and others that have max time (180 minutes with no debt) get dropped down to around 100 minutes regardless of how many charges they received. 

Solution: Rebalance prison times and fix VIP so it doesn't reduce all consequences to nothing. 

War System/Alliance

Problem: The war system is a great way to provide unique rewards and interesting ways to expand gang conflict, however the system is broken and doesn't work properly in its current state. 

Solution: Fix the war system properly by adjusting the way points are earned and lost, minimize potential for abuse for points, and provide set times when the war is active so people don't try to abuse the system during low-activity times, such as early morning or late night. Create an alliance system so gangs can officially work together and we can remove the backup rules. 

Lore Enforcement

Problem: There is currently a lack of lore enforcement with criminal factions. Street gangs are driving around in super cars and using combat MGs. Racing gangs tend to get involved in major PVP conflict and have heavy military weaponry. There is 0 gang identity other than wearing a certain color or kind of clothing. Gangs should have to form relationships to get what they need. 

Solution: With the fleet system now in place, criminal factions should be forced to use only fleet vehicles that match their lore. Imports should be tailored to that factions lore. A racing gang should be allowed to get ahold of better vehicles. A street gang should get AKs and tac SMGs. A mafia gang should get carbine rifles. A drug based gang should get access to the best drug materials. Enough min-maxing and everyone using all the meta things non-stop. Every gang shouldn't be the catch all and have access to everything. 

Drugs

Problem: Drugs are severely imbalanced and provide significant advantages with no downsides. Criminals can take drugs that are easy and cheap to obtain to give them healing, speed boosts, recoil reduction and damage reduction, as well as other side benefits such as easier pick locking. After they consume 3 or 4 different types of drugs with a simple click, they can just take methadone to remove all negative side effects from drugs. Another min-maxing tactic used for PVP and to gain advantage over others that don't have access to these absurd tools. 

Solution: Remove steroids. Period. They are stupidly strong and provide the biggest single advantage of anything. Criminals cannot complain about police tasing them if they choose to abuse steroids that allow them to run twice as fast on foot with 0 counterplay. Rebalance the other drugs to be more reasonable in their capability and only provide MINOR advantages rather than the massive advantages they have now. Make drugs have more negative side effects. Methadone should only be obtainable from LSEMS and no where else and it should remove both negative AND positive effects of drugs so it cannot be abused and it instead should be used as a proper medical tool to help someone. 

Guns

Problem: Military grade weaponry has no place in a RP server. Its stupid as hell to see both police and gang members running around Los Santos with a Combat MG or a SCAR. Everyone had way more fun when the basic crim kit was a pump + .50 or the occasional AK and the basic cop kit was a carbine rifle at best for SWAT and SMGs/pumps for most basic cops. 

Solution: Remove the majority of heavy weapons and get us back to something that actually makes more sense for a RP server rather than a PVP arena. Weapons should be wiped from EVERYONE and we should start fresh going into FiveM so that gang lore can be applied and enforced properly since most long time crims already have stashes with hundreds of guns. 

Ramming

Problem: The new meta amongst criminals is ramming enemy vehicles to either stall them and hop out with superior numbers or ram a car into someone that has just hopped out of their car to rag doll them and damage their armor/HP. Its a disgusting win mentality meta that needs to stop. 

Solution: ANY ramming that's done to gain an advantage in PVP should result in rule break punishments. 

PVP Activity

Problem: One of the main topics that commonly gets brought up when criminal RP is discussed is PVP. PVP is inherently fine and has its place in RP with gang beef or criminals trying to escape police. It's obvious that the majority of players we have left here enjoy PVP in one form or another. The problem comes up when someone treats ECRP as a PVP arena rather than a RP server. 

Solution: We shouldn't be trying to eliminate PVP, but rather help ensure it happens in the right way and for the right reasons. The event team and FM should take a more proactive approach to give players an outlet to PVP and have fun. Host more server events that may result in PVP conflict. If there are concerns that it may impact players that don't want to be involved in the PVP, do it in an isolated area such as Cayo or up north in the county where there won't be as many 3rd party players. Enough of the DJ & raffle events that do more harm than good for the server and do more events people ACTUALLY want to give people that PVP outlet in a controlled manner. Do a money truck heist. Do a battle royale event on Cayo. Do some comped cartel drops. It gives fun activity for both crims and cops.

Another solution could be designated temporary PVP zones (runescape wilderness type shit). Maybe open up a lab and admin staff can declare it as an active PVP zone for a few hours where anyone that enters that space is subject to being shot on sight. Could even declare Cayo as an active PVP zone for a period of time. Expectation is people bring their own kits and just fight so it requires minimal server staff oversight. Admins could just place down markers at all entrances as a warning its an active PVP zone. 

Drug Labs

Problem: Drug labs are imbalanced. Far too much money making capability compared to all other activities. It can be difficult for smaller gangs or newer/solo players to even have a piece of the pie when it comes to drug labs because they get immediately robbed or overwhelmed by larger zerg gangs. 

Solution: Rebalance all criminal money makers so labs aren't the only option to make good money. Properly set up a good rotation of labs with more of them actively open so people have options and won't be as salty when police shut down a lab. While ideally its eventually a server script, in the mean time, meridian/FM staff should allow an option to allow a criminal to pay for temporary lab access. Maybe a per hour fee to keep a currently closed lab open. Better labs should cost more to pay to open. Maybe other payment options should exists as well besides just cash. FM could run an event for a gang and as a reward, give them the option to open up any lab they want for a bit. Maybe they could request payment in car chop parts instead of cash. Endless possibility. 

[Smoke1]

Unfortunately, the culture previously has been if you speak negatively about staff members or the server you are muted banned or kicked. Freedom of speech should be a thing again as long as you're being respectful your opinion even if it doesn't align doesn't need to be muted or called toxic. 

I respect everything risk is doing, I've had the chance to be a part of it as well as be on the player side of it. I think FM needs to take a step back like Clank said let IC issues remain IC, When faction management steps in and say's we're going to remove your imports unless you stop fighting X,Y,Z or unless you do this or that.. is total BS Our attempt of role play is being dictated and blocked. Unfortunately, because people are scared to speak their opinions because they might not rank up in staff or in gangs, Everyone has become a yes man for the most part unless you are super senior and have the advantage of no fucks given. You conform and are forced to conform to the general consensus in fear. The only person that has managed to speak their opinion is Bala and it's because of what he has done an does for the server that he gets away with it. If it was anyone else in staff they would be removed an prob a reason found to ban. If you're opinionated, you don't fit. 

For some context my gang was involved in a turf war with another gang We had an IC meeting after a week or something and it was decided we were going to have a cease fire. The other gang went back on their word so we bombed their turfs for another 2 days until FM came and said stop doing it or we're removing your imports... "HC from both sides are complaining to fm" so 4 members of a faction who were not elected but chosen by other hc get to speak for the other 26 ppl? The overstep of faction management is too large Their job should be to provide us role play and an outlet to be heard not to dictate. Let roleplay happen.

The current rules and overstep of FM around official factions are what creates clap crews. If I have 7-8 friends that want to do whatever we want to do and have no one dictate our roleplay We just create a Clapper crew.  We don't have to deal with FM and them threatening to remove imports. We roll together do whatever we want kill cops some who are admins, enough people complain, because of simply dyeing an getting "ego'd" then eventually get spectated all the time get caught saying or doing one little thing an then banned. All because of hurt egos and feelings. The favoritism needs to stop.  The amount of complaining in /z chat or /f when admins die in shoot outs being cops is alot, i've seen it 1st hand an that needs to stop your a player like everyone else. When I was in staff and a member of Dark Army I saw it firsthand and it directly contributed to a "gang up" of staff members who've died then started specing them until they see anything to ban em DA isnt the only gang this has happened to. 

You need to remove staff members that are not active in the server for 5 to 6 hours a week or some number? Everybody has a life and that's totally fine some people's lives are the server other people's aren't, If you have to play two to five hours to be part of a LEO faction it should be similar to be a part of the staff team to stay up to date with what is going on in server! Instead of ranking up going AWOL. Chiming in some meetings with weight to your opinions that shape the server when you have actually no idea what's going on because you don't play. We have Alderine who hasn't been active in server in years other than some form paperwork giving weight to player reports and opinions to shaping the server. There are others also Who because of the past hold on to high positions and their opinions matter but unfortunately their views of the server are from years ago and have no idea with the day to day server OPS. Like straight up these issues that we're having comes from the top comes from management we're just players It's the mismanagement of the server that has caused this larger problem. IE Like mentioned above you have senior staff members that do not play that come to these meetings and give their opinions or in back channels or are in charge of departments an haven't played the server in years or 3x a month to spawn in as a dog an fuck around or be a leo for 2 hrs because you want to PVP. 

This is a role Play server but everyone is terrified to also admit it is a PVP server with rules!! There's nothing wrong with that How many police officers have come up to my gang character and asked if we want to run it back or do we want to fight Where's the fight. This happens frequently if you are considered a "cool" player an wont report them for asking. We need to embrace a form of PVP and be OK with it, It's not a bad thing. Police want to fight DOC guards want to fight Gang members want to fight everybody wants to fight!! mostly and it should be OK That's how we have a healthy environment. 

I respect every volunteer that puts their time into the server I have been there i've done that I know what it takes and thank you trying to make a difference. 

I don't think limiting speeds of cars are going to bring people back to the server or change anything If you can't go fast because of NPC cars well then what does it matter how fast your car goes?

The server is built on spending your life on it, You want to run a business you need 14-20 million and they're only being sold now because the server's dying.

You have warehouses and properties Owned from people that used to play 4568 years ago they are never resold they just sit there unable to be purchased by anybody that needs to change.

You can have Two players do the exact same thing at different times and depending on who takes the report have two different outcomes. It's all dependent on the person taking your report there is no standard unless it's a clear cut DM it's all the opinion of the person at the time.

 

These are just the hard truths that I see. Unless some of these things change trying to keep new players within the community will be very hard

Edited 18 minutes ago by Smoke1

[HobGoblin]

5 hours ago, Requiem said:

Swimming

Problem: Criminals too often resort to swimming either away from other criminals in a fight or from police in a chase. Between the terrible desync or lack of any counterplay to this essentially free escape most of the time, this strategy creates problems and lack of proper RP interaction.

Solution: When engaged in a fight or chase, NO ONE should be allowed to swim under any circumstance. 

this is a big issue, swimming is no fun for anyone