Reinstate No Crime Zones

[Melody Frey]

1 hour ago, Bala said:

Respectfully list some examples of how it's changed things for the better then.

What roleplay has it created? Smashing stuff up inside the PD? Shooting inside a hospital? Pick locking PD vehicles inside Mission Row Garage?

I'm not for the inclusions of NCZs again, honestly. I'll speak my personal perspective as an illegal faction leader with official status on the matter...

My faction leans heavily on being anti-PD and anti-Gov, and I'd like to believe we have brought very good RP to PD and Gov specifically. While yes we do vandalize places with RP graffiti, we also very often do events such as protests at city hall and even recently held @Buggs hostage on her character Hope Kant to gain info of the housing taxes that were supposed to be coming next year. We've even bolt-cut the gate of city hall just to smoke weed up there and vibe, talking for hours on end about our plans in the future of UG. We've even stolen medical supplies from Paleto MD RPly and emptied the medicine cabinets to help our people out before. 

Breaking into cars, shootings, and things of that nature have happened; yes. But there's a positive to the negative, and I personally think the positive outweighs the negative, and that's why I'd like to see them stay the way they are. People who have done things crazy like robbing people outside of Tequilala, setups at MD, but all of those to my knowledge got punished and showed that it's inappropriate. 

All in all, I enjoy the lack of NCZs because it allows for criminals to explore more criminal things to do without the fear of a rulebreak unless they go completely overboard.
 

[Bala]

To review some of the examples that you've mentioned there. You took the Attorney General of the State hostage, to gain information about housing taxes of all things, you broke into city hall to hang around a bit and smoke some drugs and you've graffiti'd the lobby of a Police Station, because you don't like the police.

It's not honestly often that I'm at a loss for words but I'm baffled by that, the worst part is that I actually think you're not the only person that feels those are perfectly rational and proportionate responses and that to me is more troubling than the NCZ changes. 

It's also not even that some of the actions are taking place where the PD can have a proportionate response, it's during the hours where we have very low units and a number of different situations to attend. Likely as you are aware what would happen if you did these things during peak activity times.

I can only imagine how people would react if PD took a hard-line stance against your faction, came to your motel and cleared out the objects from the motel as it's a residential area. Found reasons to Impound any and all vehicles used by Underground members then refused to release them. Or, if we profiled and suppressed any and all members and affiliates of Underground specifically and indefinitely. 

Those would be viewed as disproportionate responses by us but in the grand scheme of things, the RP justification would be that you've actively targeted law enforcement and are operated as an Anarchist organisation. Cop killers might have the same rights in the justice system we like to lean on, but they are dealt with very differently. 

It'd certainly be effective and I'm pretty confident these incidents would stop immediately if that happens, but we'd be told to ease up and that it isn't fair, even if it allows us to explore more law enforcement things.

Mission Row Lobby or Mission Row Parking Garage might appear in-game, empty, but in RP, there are a bunch of armed police around when you're stealing cars and smashing things up at Mission Row. Which again, was why we had the no crime zone. 

 

 

[Melody Frey]

13 minutes ago, Bala said:

To review some of the examples that you've mentioned there. You took the Attorney General of the State hostage, to gain information about housing taxes of all things, you broke into city hall to hang around a bit and smoke some drugs and you've graffiti'd the lobby of a Police Station, because you don't like the police.

There's weeks of RP going into each of these events, for the record. We took her hostage in a private room below the actual gov building with zero witnesses, and by all means did it with a purpose as we have been after the information we finally got there for months on end. I won't disclose that information due to possible metagaming, but you can ask Hope Kant OOCly as to rather or not she enjoyed the event and she confirmed that with me as well. We've done a lot of RP with SAGOV, from things minor and major, from threats to full blown protests turned riots. While yes we ICly "don't like the police", each time we have ever done this has been in response of something LSPD has done to us. The most recent graffiti was actually due to an officer deciding to Fortnite emote on an injured member they had just gunned down. All of my organizations RP is typically retaliatory, minus the occasions where we are just hanging out and being typical low-income criminals and breaking into things. 
 

 

20 minutes ago, Bala said:

It's also not even that some of the actions are taking place where the PD can have a proportionate response, it's during the hours where we have very low units and a number of different situations to attend. Likely as you are aware what would happen if you did these things during peak activity times.

My faction is late night NA hours, but I do try to get RP rolling earlier than our peak hours solely so we CAN interact with PD. My faction isn't trying to win every encounter, we're just trying to have fun and provide unique scenarios for the server to interact with. We try to think outside of the box and give LSPD things to do that isn't always going to end up in the same old shootout and chase. If anything, we try to go out of our way to for LEOs to gain RP.

 

24 minutes ago, Bala said:

I can only imagine how people would react if PD took a hard-line stance against your faction, came to your motel and cleared out the objects from the motel as it's a residential area. Found reasons to Impound any and all vehicles used by Underground members then refused to release them. Or, if we profiled and suppressed any and all members and affiliates of Underground specifically and indefinitely. 

Yes, the community would most likely be at an outrage at that point. The reason they'd be outraged wouldn't be because "well we want justice for the Anarchist gang", they'd be outraged because if LSPD can do that to us; they can do it to anyone. Eclipse is one big community, or at least it should be; and pushing things beyond certain limits quite literally does nothing but make people scared to lose things they love and hold dear. If you're allowed to do all of these things listed, why wouldn't you be able to do it to factions that can come up? Why even make anymore factions at all? I don't want to be the driving force that says "ooga booga LSPD OP" and begin preaching about how crim RP is already being suppressed because I'm a firm believer in just everyone having fun and trying to tell stories, but once you begin taking/seizing assets; you'd effectively just be scaring off even more of the crim population. 

The conversation isn't about my faction or your faction; it's about furthering stories and that's my point. I'm sorry you may not see my side or that you believe I'm not seeing some bigger picture, but you haven't painted that picture for me at all so I lack the ability to see it. While I think some areas would benefit from being NCZs such as Pillbox and Paleto MD solely due to them being the only body dropoffs and script limitations (not being able to lock your car while carrying a body so people can ransack your car, we can't simply drive through with an injured like MD does to drop off an injured person, etc) but even then I'm not for re-adding them as NCZs because even inconvenient petty theft or stealing a car from me can evolve into actual storylines with other factions or people that could potentially be very fun and rewarding.

I only give a -1 here because No Crime Zones are just that... No CRIME Zones. I want to commit crimes. I don't want Mission Row, the Gov building, or anywhere else to make me think "I really wish I could have fun and roleplay here as a criminal, but let's do the speed limit, buckle my seatbelt and wave to Lewis like a good girl."
It's boring. 

[AtlasOLimbo]

46 minutes ago, Bala said:

To review some of the examples that you've mentioned there. You took the Attorney General of the State hostage, to gain information about housing taxes of all things, you broke into city hall to hang around a bit and smoke some drugs and you've graffiti'd the lobby of a Police Station, because you don't like the police.

 

This is an extremely awful reduction of what was said and what we as Underground roleplay and stand for and I'm genuinely extremely disappointed you even decided to post this. We like to have fun. I really do not believe what we are doing is harmful to the roleplay experience, and if you consider it that harmful you should consider the state that Eclipse is in and re-consider your stance accordingly.

EDIT: We need to be removing restrictions to roleplay and encouraging more creativity. Not adding more. -1

Edited November 18, 2023 by AtlasOLimbo

[Quietthecutie]

2 hours ago, Bala said:

To review some of the examples that you've mentioned there. You took the Attorney General of the State hostage, to gain information about housing taxes of all things, you broke into city hall to hang around a bit and smoke some drugs and you've graffiti'd the lobby of a Police Station, because you don't like the police.

It's not honestly often that I'm at a loss for words but I'm baffled by that, the worst part is that I actually think you're not the only person that feels those are perfectly rational and proportionate responses and that to me is more troubling than the NCZ changes. 

It's also not even that some of the actions are taking place where the PD can have a proportionate response, it's during the hours where we have very low units and a number of different situations to attend. Likely as you are aware what would happen if you did these things during peak activity times.

I can only imagine how people would react if PD took a hard-line stance against your faction, came to your motel and cleared out the objects from the motel as it's a residential area. Found reasons to Impound any and all vehicles used by Underground members then refused to release them. Or, if we profiled and suppressed any and all members and affiliates of Underground specifically and indefinitely. 

Those would be viewed as disproportionate responses by us but in the grand scheme of things, the RP justification would be that you've actively targeted law enforcement and are operated as an Anarchist organisation. Cop killers might have the same rights in the justice system we like to lean on, but they are dealt with very differently. 

It'd certainly be effective and I'm pretty confident these incidents would stop immediately if that happens, but we'd be told to ease up and that it isn't fair, even if it allows us to explore more law enforcement things.

Mission Row Lobby or Mission Row Parking Garage might appear in-game, empty, but in RP, there are a bunch of armed police around when you're stealing cars and smashing things up at Mission Row. Which again, was why we had the no crime zone. 

 

 

this is a horrendous and disappointing reaction to what are very good counterpoints being made. you seem to feel that a crim org who have an agenda other than holding labs and basically avoiding cops is a bad thing, when in reality it diversifies RP ops, makes things more interesting and allows for creativity. they don't do this stuff because its easy, they do it because its fun, different and challenging even though its often at their expense.

Yes, some orgs are anarchy based. that's their entire identity.  And whilst yes, in reality, this would result in local law squeezing the life out of them. this is a RP server. they are providing interesting RP ops and you basically OOCly hitting them with thinly veiled threats only reveals a win more mentality and not a good RP approach. 

Please calm down and stop this vendetta against people who are just trying to enjoy a RP server by RPing their character. seriously, I expected better from you.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Quietthecutie

[Clank]

17 hours ago, Bala said:

For once, I'm going to keep this suggestion simple and the reason that I'm going to keep it simple is that I can't imagine that anyone that is going to look at the big picture here, is going to have a hard time understanding why.

• Restore the No Crime Zones around Mission Row and Vinewood Police Departments, City Hall, Paleto Bay Fire Station and Pillbox Medical.

I get why staff wanted to give players the opportunity for different kinds of role-play in these areas but with all due respect to the players of our server, I think a number of incidents since at both Pillbox and Mission Row (the ones that I am aware of) lead me to believe that our player base can't be trusted to regulate themselves.

Yes, players can report if there are non roleplay breaches in these areas currently but honestly, that's like closing the barn door after the horse is bolted. You can't undo a dumb situation or un-frustrate people. I feel like I speak for the PD in this, we're sick of people doing goofy shit at a building that is RPly full of police officers all hours of the day. 

I also don't think that fighting and shooting and stealing vehicles at a hospital is conducive to a good roleplay experience either.
I also don't think people doing the kind of illegal activities they have at city hall recently is conducive to a good roleplay experience either.

If players wanna display their quirky personalities or feed their inner criminal, do it elsewhere. It's a big map.

You know we're homies but this is a bad take. There have been countless times where police departments have been shot up, attacked, vandalized and more irl. Its just one of those things that happens. Does it happen often? No - /BUT/ the opportunity should be present. Last night I had a shootout with Underground at MRPD and it was some of the most fun I have had in a good bit. I have never had to fight at mission row and I had to on-the-fly adapt to a new location. The LSPD won, obviously. It's our home turf. We have easy access to the armory to restock armor in case any second waves happen etc. 

Are the petty crimes such as waking up to my car being without doors or lockpicked etc annoying? Yes. 100%. Do the possible experiences that not having an NCZ there outweigh those annoying encounters? 1000%. At the end of the day as players we expect fun interactions. I'd love more stuff to go down outside of MRPD, whether it be fist fights, kidnappings, ambushes etc. 

Police have the upper hand there, It will not be easy for a gang to win a fight at a police station. If they decide to drop in feet first into hell then let them. If someone has the balls to attack the police department to free their prisoned comrade or to attack a convoy early, fuck it man let them. They're the ones that are going to have to deal with police going to the armory and restocking on body armor and ammo. It only makes sense. If they manage to succeed in their plan even with all the advantages PD have at their home base then they deserve props!

[Harveyyy]

I'll keep it simple. If someone lockpicks a car at Mission Row, arrest them. Or, find an alternative to counter the car theft, which as far as I know, has already been done and implemented. You have a building next to Mission Row that is exclusively used by cops as a parking garage, use it.
If two people fight at Pillbox and one ends up killing the other, arrest them. Or don't. It's your choice at the end of the day.
If a gang engages with another at pillbox for a legitimate reason, then let them be. Let RP flow.
IC actions, IC consequences, remember? Also, it seems that this suggestion is being brought up due to the inconveniences this rule change might cause to cops. Good thing you can easily remove yourself from the situation and you don't have to deal with anyone!

Bullshit meme behaviour though goes against that.

-1

[BubblezDaFish]

From a legal faction perspective, I understand the challenge of having to deal with players targeting a faction headquarters. Although within DOC we never had the luxury of having an NCZ in our parking lot/lobby, and I believe this has allowed for more fluent RP for criminal players, which in turn allows legal to have interesting scenarios to take part in. We have always dealt with IC issues ICly, and I never once thought of restricting roleplay to settle issues. I imagine if more time passes with this change more and more of the roleplay within former NCZs will be constructive rather than an issue. Underground is setting a good example of how other factions can utilize this new feature.

[Cyrus Raven]

Keep city hall free of NCZ pls

[Herrman_Wolff]

I think I was one of them who said that there has been good role-play in NCZ's without giving exact examples, so I am happy to list a few to help hopefully show my point a bit more. I know its said that we dont seem to be seeing the big picture, but it may be helpful from yourside if you could highlight what this bigger picture looks like outside of being inconvienced about your cars, and wanting to dull some unique RP moments. 

 

I know you have already disregarded it as baffling, but I am in the boat that firmly believes a lot of the RP seen from The Underground such as the AG hostage incident is actually really great scenarios of role-play that stem from IC decisions, and have IC knock-ons that further even more role-play. It's RP that was born naturally and has now given different IC considerations for a number of factions which really could not have been achieved in the same sort of way, if NCZ's were still in place. 

This is not the only standalone scenario, there is far more now happening, especially in places like city hall which I think has been a long time coming as there is now a feel of proper threat, given more RP opportunities and considerations to GSB. Kidnappings, trespasses, and general graffiti are just some of the instances where the lack of NCZ's are now giving criminals, as well as legal factions, different challenges that were previously locked behind the knowledge that such actions could not happen in certain areas. I am sure it would be easy to say that we could still have those considerations ICly since characters don't know about the existence of NCZ's, but if that was really true, then your cars would never have been broken into in the first place. 

There is now genuine IC consequences for pulling up to the very front door of a hospital and abandoning your car unlocked and running, there is now genuine IC consequences for leaving a bunch of doors unlocked in a secure building, and there's now a smorgasbord of RP opportunities that stem from the all of these IC consequences. Even silly things that add small details to people's characters that they can now do in NCZ's are just really great for adding nuances such as paranoid criminals not having to randomly disarm themselves when entering this area, even if they are outside, or a gang having to awkwardly wait outside the boundaries like there's an invisible fence if they are about to kidnap someone. I understand that some of these scenarios, you slightly hinted they wouldn't ever happen, but when we start to get into the age-old "not realistic" debate, I have no doubt every person here could write a Weazel News Special Investigation length paragraph into the various things in our server that are and aren't realistic. It boils down to; if you find something to be NRP, then submit a report, otherwise it really is about finding IC actions to retaliate/mitigate/prevent, which in turn is just more role-play for everyone.

Weazel News is a 24-hour news corporation with an entirely walled off car park that has 3 CCTV cameras in it, and we have been subject to car break-ins galore. Crying out for an NCZ for the area is an easy option, but instead finding IC preventative measures, and alternate solutions is infinitely more rewarding and allows us so much more scenarios that break up the mundane daily ad request loop. That's the kind of stuff that I play this server for; varied and unique RP that is engaging and brings individuals together and creates stories. If parking my car two streets away so I can avoid the most minor of inconveniences is the price I pay for that varied RP, then charge me twice, because it's worth it!

[Bala]

I'll be honest, I could care less about your personal opinion of me as a person or my suggestions, I'm not saying what I'm saying to be popular or even to provoke a negative reaction. Just giving the same opinion with no frills that I always do. If you feel the way you do, time is a great healer and all that.

But, the goofy behaviour needs to stop and because you can't control yourselves, you require the script to control you. You cannot be trusted not to start trying to shoot each other inside a hospital. You cannot be trusted not to fire Heavy Weapons at Mission Row. You cannot be trusted not to picklock vehicles in areas that it makes no sense to do it because either you have no concept of this or you don't care.

I know this, deep down you know this, because since we inexplicably changed the rules, this is what you've shown to be the case and since you think it's okay, keep doing it and see what effect it'll have. We're not going to get any closer to where we want to be doing this.

That said, I can at least say I tried. See you on the next one, staff can archive this at their leisure.

 

[Cyrus Raven]

14 minutes ago, Bala said:

I'll be honest, I could care less about your personal opinion of me as a person or my suggestions, I'm not saying what I'm saying to be popular or even to provoke a negative reaction. Just giving the same opinion with no frills that I always do. If you feel the way you do, time is a great healer and all that.

But, the goofy behaviour needs to stop and because you can't control yourselves, you require the script to control you. You cannot be trusted not to start trying to shoot each other inside a hospital. You cannot be trusted not to fire Heavy Weapons at Mission Row. You cannot be trusted not to picklock vehicles in areas that it makes no sense to do it because either you have no concept of this or you don't care.

I know this, deep down you know this, because since we inexplicably changed the rules, this is what you've shown to be the case and since you think it's okay, keep doing it and see what effect it'll have. We're not going to get any closer to where we want to be doing this.

That said, I can at least say I tried. See you on the next one, staff can archive this at their leisure.

 

Is this really a widespread issue? Is there a ton of player reports surrounding actions in areas previously considered as NCZs? I feel like your complaints can be solved with a report for non-RP if it's something you feel is very silly. Maybe creating a new civilian type position of parking security for Mission Row could help alleviate some of the issues through IC measures.

[idgafashlee]

-1. that is all. 

[Oli]

Dunno how your suggestions are always either a big W or a huge L. This one's the latter. -1.

[moment]

On 11/17/2023 at 5:05 PM, MrSilky said:

I like the fact RP can be more fluent without arbitrary borders of what can/can’t happen. If it makes sense to the RP and surroundings, crack on.

Bullshit meme behaviour though goes against that.

-1

Couldn't have said it better.

[Herbo]

+ and - 1,

NCZs protect you from getting robbed and/or damaged/killed. I don't think it's fair to remove NCZs and then enforce rules that still prevent you from doing those 2 things at the place, it basically still makes it an NCZ. 

I think the blanket policy that was added should be removed and instead PD/SD should be enforcing the fact that doing these types of activities at these places will be of significant danger to yourself. What I mean by this is, Gang A starts a shootout at Pillbox, PD/SD that respond recognize it's Gang A and gang suppress the shit out of them and just make their lives significantly harder for the next week+ or however long. 

I think this would allow RP to FLOW a lot better compared to the blanket policy of "shooting at these places is considered NRP".

That's just my opinion tho, either remove the blanket policy and allow IC consequences to follow after you do an action like getting into a shootout at a hospital or add the NCZs back.

And for the cars getting lockpicked at mission row, you guys have LEGAL evidence lockers that you can store your stuff in, you also have a gated up car park that's very hard to get in 10 seconds away from you, stop complaining when there's an easy solution to your problem.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Herbo

[Lynn Foster]

I'm not an LEO or a crim, but I'd say anything that allows rp to feel more natural is a good thing.  I was not happy about NCZs being removed at first, and as a medic it has kind of been a pain in the rear as our parking situation is not great and upper pillbox can frequently get chaotic with fights and shootouts.  It's not fun trying to rp brain surgery or checking up with an icu patient and constantly hear fighting in the lobby.  However the NCZs being gone has allowed for some thoroughly enjoyable and in depth rp at pillbox, and I wouldn't trade that away for the previously mentioned inconvenience.  While I don't believe bringing NCZs back is a good solution, I would like to see more done to deter blatantly non rp actions done in these areas.  Reporting is not always an option because I would not have seen most of the situation or would not rply be able to leave a surgery patient.

Perhaps we could be a bit stricter with NRP violations in what would be high security areas like hospitals and police stations, something that would allow RP but cut down on the memey behavior which disrupts the rp of others.  Maybe we could put in a /report that references the cctvs without having to interrupt our own rp?

 

 

[Thang]

On 11/18/2023 at 2:04 AM, Osborn said:

Comparing a gang headquarters to Mission Row is like comparing apples to oranges for me. Mission Row, as a police station, is not inherently dangerous and is designed to ensure the safety of individuals, contributing to their well-being. On the contrary, a gang headquarters embodies the opposite, it is a criminal area where individuals have the capability of causing harm or even threatening lives. While breaking a law and attempting to burglarize a car may result in imprisonment at Mission Row, doing the same near a gang HQ could escalate to the point of being shot or even losing one's life.

 

It seems unrealistic, almost nonsensical, for players to engage in robberies at police stations, considering the high risk of incarceration. This not only violates common sense but also our server's Fear Roleplay and Public Robbery rules.

Under Fear Roleplay, players should exhibit genuine concern for their character’s safety. In real life, the fear of spending a significant part of one's life in prison is a strong deterrent against committing crimes, especially in areas swarming with law enforcement. This aspect seems to be overlooked currently.

Additionally, our Public Robbery rule emphasizes realistic motives and risk assessment. The extreme risk associated with committing a crime at a police station should realistically outweigh any potential reward, making such actions unlikely and impractical.

[Quietthecutie]

2 minutes ago, Thang said:

It seems unrealistic, almost nonsensical, for players to engage in robberies at police stations, considering the high risk of incarceration. This not only violates common sense but also our server's Fear Roleplay and Public Robbery rules.

Under Fear Roleplay, players should exhibit genuine concern for their character’s safety. In real life, the fear of spending a significant part of one's life in prison is a strong deterrent against committing crimes, especially in areas swarming with law enforcement. This aspect seems to be overlooked currently.

Additionally, our Public Robbery rule emphasizes realistic motives and risk assessment. The extreme risk associated with committing a crime at a police station should realistically outweigh any potential reward, making such actions unlikely and impractical.

This is assuming that said characters motivations are purely for the gain of money/material goods. a lot of this wouldnt apply to anarchists, political protesters, basically anyone with a motivation besides money. so long as these motivations are properly developed in prior roleplay, shouldnt be a problem.

[Drizzy.]

Definitely for reinstating no crime zones.

Certain places for crimes to happen make little to no sense whatsoever. 

A member of this community was banned for 1 day for shooting a person within the SD lobby while it was empty after chasing them in there.

A group of people attacked and killed a few others in a occupied police station and it was allowed.

Now this is just 1 example from the top of my head where different decisions have been given on a similar situaiton, I understand different values and roleplay build up can take place and affect things but I think things in certain locations such as these places should have a more uniform response from staff.

 

#BringBackNCZ's

 

[Sico]

+1

[Josh_Mercer]

-1 it's nice to actually be able to try anything anywhere, depending on nighttime and people being around. 

Also bringing it back will introduce more people into Ruleplaying which happens far too much, where people purposely try to get the other party to break a rule.

[Bala]

Not sure you needed to revive a dead thread to be honest, I get it you don't like people doing things that make actual sense