Reinstate No Crime Zones

[Bala]

For once, I'm going to keep this suggestion simple and the reason that I'm going to keep it simple is that I can't imagine that anyone that is going to look at the big picture here, is going to have a hard time understanding why.

• Restore the No Crime Zones around Mission Row and Vinewood Police Departments, City Hall, Paleto Bay Fire Station and Pillbox Medical.

I get why staff wanted to give players the opportunity for different kinds of role-play in these areas but with all due respect to the players of our server, I think a number of incidents since at both Pillbox and Mission Row (the ones that I am aware of) lead me to believe that our player base can't be trusted to regulate themselves.

Yes, players can report if there are non roleplay breaches in these areas currently but honestly, that's like closing the barn door after the horse is bolted. You can't undo a dumb situation or un-frustrate people. I feel like I speak for the PD in this, we're sick of people doing goofy shit at a building that is RPly full of police officers all hours of the day. 

I also don't think that fighting and shooting and stealing vehicles at a hospital is conducive to a good roleplay experience either.
I also don't think people doing the kind of illegal activities they have at city hall recently is conducive to a good roleplay experience either.

If players wanna display their quirky personalities or feed their inner criminal, do it elsewhere. It's a big map.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Bala

[MrSilky]

I like the fact RP can be more fluent without arbitrary borders of what can/can’t happen. If it makes sense to the RP and surroundings, crack on.

Bullshit meme behaviour though goes against that.

-1

[Timmaayy]

I have to also disagree with this suggestion, NCZs were removed to allow further roleplay.

We trust our players to still roleplay responsibly within these areas and to still respect server rules.

[SquirtleSquad]

I +1 this only because of the number of reports I've read through, and number of discussions that have happened recently.

People consistently state that when LEO infiltrate an area or enter an area that's gang HQ, but devoid of physical players, it's considered NRP as the area would be "RPly" filled with gang members. Yet those same individuals or faction members will come to Pillbox or LEO and pick cars as the area is devoid of physical players when it's been stated that it's "RPly" filled with in and out going LEO's, or starting shoot outs when you have Doctors, and Patients entering/exiting the facility.

I'm fine with organic RP, as long as the RP makes sense and isn't just a "fuck you" mentality or a "W" mentality, however I've rarely encountered a RP scenario where the RP made sense.

[Ash]

I don’t think the people who can’t understand he rules should ruin the fun for the other opportunities (criminal, LEO and civ) that the removal of these has allowed for.

 

Ive said it once and I’ll say it again, the vehicles argument is silly when there’s parking literally walking distance from nearly all of the places listed. Sure I do think it’s silly that the rule allows for stealing cars parked at mission row for example, but I think that’s a compromise for what it enables especially when there’s an alternative of just…parking around the corner.

I also think the “do it elsewhere it’s a big map” isn’t a fair comment as all of those places are hubs for various roleplay and pushing people away because of a few scenarios some goobers did is limiting.

[Demonmit1]

Quote

I don’t think the people who can’t understand he rules should ruin the fun for the other opportunities (criminal, LEO and civ) that the removal of these has allowed for.

Said better than how I was trying to say it. completely agree.

at the end of the day, NRP rule exists, and should be utilized. if the server was to widely add more NCZ areas, whats next, public parking? gov scripted stores? the amount of bullshit rulebreaking that happens at burgershot or public parking would be the same argument as this post.

idk. i disagree. report rulebreakers, and staff need to be actively watching the areas if they have the time. dont limit what people are allowed to do if they know how to do it properly just because others break the rules and ruin the fun for all involved.

[SquirtleSquad]

2 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

Said better than how I was trying to say it. completely agree.

at the end of the day, NRP rule exists, and should be utilized. if the server was to widely add more NCZ areas, whats next, public parking? gov scripted stores? the amount of bullshit rulebreaking that happens at burgershot or public parking would be the same argument as this post.

idk. i disagree. report rulebreakers, and staff need to be actively watching the areas if they have the time. dont limit what people are allowed to do if they know how to do it properly just because others break the rules and ruin the fun for all involved.

These areas listed, Pillbox, Paleto MD, SD, MRPD, City Hall, all used to be NCZ up until several months ago. 

[Quietthecutie]

-1.

If people cant understand the ramifications of their RP in heavily policed, public areas that's on them, and they should be reported appropriately. this is an RP issue, not a server rules issue, and i find the argument that the community "cant be trusted." to be somewhat condescending.

We find ourselves in a world where up to 4 police cruisers will pull up for something as little as a standard traffic stop. if LEOs end up having further ops due to recently opened NCZs I do not see this as a bad thing.

just slapping a fat "no fun allowed." sticker on certain areas of the map for the sake of LEO convenience only serves to limit RP ops for those of us who understand how to do it right.

I understand that the recent change in NCZs has resulted in some incidents that scriptly would not be feasible and in the short term, an increase in reports. but, In time, people will learn how to do this correctly without handholding. blanket banning these Ops is a short minded and incorrect step backwards.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Quietthecutie

[Herrman_Wolff]

I am sympathetic to your reasoning but I think the removal of NCZ's has been a change that had lead to some really fantastic fluid roleplay that I would hate to see stifled. 

I know there has been some low points surrounding the removal of NCZs but the avenues it opened up are really fantastic and it certainly won me over. It would be disappointing to have a small group of individuals ruin all that potential for other players. 

[inorigj]

I've got to say -1 to this one. 1 Thing I used to dislike back when NCZ's was a thing was the amount of people "crims, civs and LEO's" that ran to NCZ's to avoid situations.

It most of the time ends with a group of people piling up at the location, ether if its Bank or MRPD. and all of them will be in /pm or /b complaining about how they can't run to a NCZ because they committed a crime, and its against NCZ rules to flee to a NCZ when you yourself did a crime. And back then the same argument was used FOR removal of NCZs

Or how its unfair that just because they crossed a DAMN intersection they can no longer shoot/block/melee or assault them.

 

The defence of NCZ's make no sense what so ever. specially with the arguments that's used for it.

Quote

The Bank would have a lot of people around it, plus security that would call for Police if anything shady is seen outside

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The police station is filled with police officers that would react to your actions at  moments notice

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Tequilala would have security and a bunch of people seeing you if you did anything shady to warrant their attention

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Pillbox is full of Doctors, nurses and patients that are filling the lobby, going in and out the main door all the time and would notice your crimes

 

Yes. all of these are "valid" arguments to why its NRP to do crime there. but what about LSC? what about THE GOD DAMN HIGHWAY. what about the shopping centre? why not the pier? why isn't the entire block around City hall a NCZ? why isn't every sidewalk along the busiest road in the city a NCZ? the arguments used in the defence for all of the NCZ's could be used for A LOT of locations ALL AROUND the map. if we're to go by this NCZ logic that people want. the only place that WOULDN'T be a NCZ. is Chiliad and Sandy.

 

 

 

 

"just report the player abusing the NCZ"

 

And the same defence for the removal can be used as for having it.

NCZ's frustrated a ton of people. and just like a NRPing player at the new "no NCZ" locations. reporting them will not un-frustrate the players involved.

the players that lost due to the NRP will be pissed and or frustrated because they were done dirty.

The players that did the NRP will be worried and on edge for 1 to 2 days, possibly lose interest in playing in anticipation of a staff punishment from a forum report

 

the only difference is. NCZs was a cheep way out for the rule breakers. You could run there. die and wouldn't lose anything. as NCZ's prevented the loss of items upon death within the NCZ border.

 

I'd also like to point out that comments such as this regarding the communities members is totally un-called for. Just because their RP isn't your type of RP does not mean that they are wrong and should be treated as "bad RP". RP comes in a lot of different styles. and if we all RP'ed as stand up citizens then ECRP would be a horribly boring place to be. ECPR has a lot of unique and fun characters within it. And simply calling their RP a "quirky personality" and go as far as saying they should stay away from a part of the map because YOU don't like it, to the point where you want a SERVER RULE to be put in place to keep them away from you. that's very disrespectful.

4 hours ago, Bala said:

our player base can't be trusted to regulate themselves.

4 hours ago, Bala said:

If players wanna display their quirky personalities or feed their inner criminal, do it elsewhere. It's a big map.

Edited November 17, 2023 by inorigj
Removed a line

[SquirtleSquad]

47 minutes ago, inorigj said:

Yes. all of these are "valid" arguments to why its NRP to do crime there. but what about LSC? what about THE GOD DAMN HIGHWAY. what about the shopping centre? why not the pier? why isn't the entire block around City hall a NCZ? why isn't every sidewalk along the busiest road in the city a NCZ? the arguments used in the defence for all of the NCZ's could be used for A LOT of locations ALL AROUND the map. if we're to go by this NCZ logic that people want. the only place that WOULDN'T be a NCZ. is Chiliad and Sandy.

This is all covered under Rule 14. Player Theft, Prison Breakout, and Kidnapping. The issue with it, is that currently people disregard the NRP ruling, and it's just a few small bad eggs of people who will eventually learn it. I've seen people with 100k+ exp doing this on the almost the daily. People just see cars + empty area in an area thats got LEO/MD/GOV written all over it and disregard it all.

14. Player Theft, Prison Breakout, and Kidnapping

Player Theft Robberies should be conducted in a realistic manner with a reasonable in-character motive. Location, time of day, and realistic population should all be considered prior to a robbery. Players should not conduct minor robberies in situations with high risk. Players should consider the risk vs reward of the robbery and utilize secluded areas where necessary to avoid witnesses.

The other thing about heading to NCZ's to escape RP is also covered under Rule 13. No Crime Zones. 

13. No Crime Zones (NCZ)

No Crime Zones (NCZs) are indicated by the HUD (bottom left) or through the /NCZ chat command. These are areas that are considered populated, extremely public, and areas that would have ample security measures such as cameras, staff, and so forth. In these areas, players may not commit any crime, but are allowed to flee, lie, or scam In-Character.  If a player uses the NCZ for protection the attacker must wait for that player to leave the area. However, players may not go to a NCZ within 15 minutes after engaging in criminal activity or a resulting chase, unless they are turning themselves in to law enforcement.

 

[Pazz]

We need consistent enforcement of the non-roleplay rule more than we need no crime zones.

It's not realistic to try to steal a car from a police station that would be populated and guarded (the same argument used to force law enforcement away from gang HQs when they're low in numbers), it's not very realistic to be killing each other at the front doors of a hospital, but there's a rule that allows for this to be enforced and prohibited in a way without the need for NCZs when the behavior goes from questionable to unacceptable, it just isn't done consistently across the board.

I can do with or without the no crime zones, it doesn't affect me beyond the absolute headache the spur-of-the-moment removal caused in the initial few weeks and the migraines I suffer from because of double standards.

3 hours ago, SquirtleSquad said:

People consistently state that when LEO infiltrate an area or enter an area that's gang HQ, but devoid of physical players, it's considered NRP as the area would be "RPly" filled with gang members. Yet those same individuals or faction members will come to Pillbox or LEO and pick cars as the area is devoid of physical players when it's been stated that it's "RPly" filled with in and out going LEO's, or starting shoot outs when you have Doctors, and Patients entering/exiting the facility.

While an issue and one I agree with, I think it's more down to selective enforcement than it is about the no crime zones. If a single illegal roleplayer wants to break into vehicles in a heavily recorded and realistically guarded and populated police station because it's devoid of real players, then they shouldn't tell law enforcement that they can't enter a gang HQ because it's populated and dangerous despite it being devoid of real players, and vice versa.

The same goes for server staff. If they give out to an LEO for entering a gang HQ devoid of real players because "it's dangerous", then they should enforce the same standard on individuals breaking into cars at a police station.

 

36 minutes ago, inorigj said:

Police officers in the real world is given medals. honours and praise DAILY from a lot of people because they NEED to deal with bullshit, just like PD/SD needs to on the server everyday.

I don't think this argument has any place in this thread or discussion. You're drawing real-life comparisons but neglecting the fact that consequences that discourage this sort of behavior in real life don't really exist in the server. I'm not saying they need to exist per se, just highlighting that this argument is heavily flawed. You're comparing real-life law enforcement, who per status quo are highly paid and thoroughly trained, to people who log on to a game in their free time and get abused and nonsense thrown at them for choosing to play a cop.

 

3 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

If people cant understand the ramifications of their RP in heavily policed, public areas that's on them, and they should be reported appropriately. this is an RP issue, not a server rules issue

I concur with this, mostly. I still believe that it's also an issue of inconsistent enforcement.

Either way, when the NCZs were removed, it was pretty easy to see all of these issues or concerns coming. I don't think there's much sense in pretending ECRP is something it isn't with regard to how much better or worse the RP would be with the reintroduction of NCZs or by keeping them removed. Goobers will be goobers, that's consistently been a thing for the last six and a half years, they simply need to be dealt with by the staff team in a consistent manner, and then those who do provide something quality can still go on with their day without obtrusive restrictions due to the NCZs.

 

 

[inorigj]

@SquirtleSquad

I don't mean to be rude to you here, but you missed my entire argument from what I can see.

[Cup]

Personally i think the positives have outweighed the downsides of the removal of NCZs. Sure silly stuff still happens but that could be said about pretty much everything on the server and reinstating the NCZs wouldnt change that.

[inorigj]

17 minutes ago, Pazz said:

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Pazz said:

who log on to a game in their free time and get abused and nonsense thrown at them for choosing to play a cop.

I do how ever fully agree that this is non-sense and shouldn't be a thing, but punishing players that's NOT treating LEO players this way. isn't the solution to the problem.ockquote widget

Edited November 17, 2023 by inorigj
added a line

[inorigj]

16 minutes ago, Pazz said:

don't think this argument has any place in this thread or discussion. You're drawing real-life comparisons but neglecting the fact that consequences that discourage this sort of behavior in real life don't really exist in the server. I'm not saying they need to exist per se, just highlighting that this argument is heavily flawed. You're comparing real-life law enforcement, who per status quo are highly paid and thoroughly trained, to people who log on to a game in their free time and get abused and nonsense thrown at them for choosing to play a cop

After re-readig my post I can see how it does not fit in there. So I'm deleting that part of it

[Bala]

I would really love to hear an example of this top-tier roleplay that is happening because we don't have these no crime zones anymore, if someone can point me out to them.

I'm going to assume it's not police vehicles being pick-locked in the parking lot, I'm going to assume it's not a police station being RPly vandalised and I'm definitely not going to assume it's a faction going all 13 Hours of Benghazi on Mission Row either?

People want to tell me that this is better. How? Please show me some examples.
Show me an example of this stellar role-play that couldn't be achieved by simply asking for admin permission to do it, with a proper roleplay motive that could be defended and understood by all players.

The point of a no crime zone in the first place was either an area where it would be detrimental to the RP/activity there to allow crime to happen  (Bank/Tequil'la) or an area where committing crime would be incredibly foolish, to the point of it being baiting (PD/SD/City Hall).

We've had NCZs for at least four and a half years on this server, what in four and a half years has anyone that voted for this learned that makes them think that changing this was going to go any differently than it did. Literally, DAY ONE, there is a shootout at Pillbox.

We had a script that showed you where something was an NCZ and prevented you from breaking into vehicles. That was there for a reason, because people cannot be trusted to make these kinds of decisions themselves. We actually had to have our hands held for that.

It would be perhaps less of an irritation if we had the faction parking at these locations, that has been on the dev list for eons but we didn't think that far ahead. 

Now, all of a sudden, the saving grace is going to be the very staff that decided this was the move and have to date, inconsistently enforced it? I don't see how that's going to improve things and inevitably we'll have to go back to NCZs because this will keep happening and it'll effect the right person a few too many times.

[Demonmit1]

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I would really love to hear an example of this top-tier roleplay that is happening because we don't have these no crime zones anymore, if someone can point me out to them.

i was down at City hall where someone had posted photos of two members of the government with red X's drawn over their eyes and some threats to them. clearly someone was making valid RP things happen threatening government officials. cant do that when the rules explicitly state no crime is allowed to be committed in a NCZ area.

i was at city hall when there were criminals effectively playing a prank on building dropping stink bombs down the vents from the roof. cops were called, weazel showed up, it was a fun little thing. making the zone a NCZ would make that against the rules.

there needs to be enforcement of NRP for those that do unrealistic things within high populated areas. making high population areas where players constantly are at NCZ, where theres more chances for interaction in a RP server, completely defeats the purpose of allowing players to RP. 
 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Demonmit1

[Alannn]

-1

[SquirtleSquad]

What about a compromised middle ground, since we don't have any sort of way of coming to an agreement.

A sort of "Semi-NCZ" where in, scripted triggers or actions are unable to be done, but RP can still happen. This way you're able to still enact your RP situations, hostages, bomb threats, spray painting, vandalism, etc, but things that do not allow RP with others, breaking CCTV, breaking into cars, etc would not be allowed.

This way it's pseudo-enforced of RPly having LEO always around, BUT reduces the number of people disregarding the devoid physical players. Might be a stupid suggestion and something that would be way to difficult to integrate.

[DontSniffSugar]

I will have to respectfully disagree with this suggestion. 

 

Removing them from being No Crime Zones has introduced lots of roleplay, as stated by the previous people that have responded.

 

On the topic of cars getting broken into or stolen, there's plenty of ways to circumvent this issue. Don't leave valuables in your vehicle, or park it at City Parking, which is not even a block away. To the extent of my knowledge (I do apologize if I'm wrong) the LEO factions allow you to store items in your personal lockers so you don't have to risk losing valuable items.

[Hazel]

2 hours ago, inorigj said:

I do how ever fully agree that this is non-sense and shouldn't be a thing, but punishing players that's NOT treating LEO players this way. isn't the solution to the problem.ockquote widget

It's not about creating rules to force people to behave, it's about enforcing rules consistently across the board. Why do I have to follow Fear RP around a gang HQ while it's seemingly acceptable to commit crimes at Mission Row if the argument for both sides is "there'd be people there".

[inorigj]

3 minutes ago, Hazel said:

It's not about creating rules to force people to behave, it's about enforcing rules consistently across the board. Why do I have to follow Fear RP around a gang HQ while it's seemingly acceptable to commit crimes at Mission Row if the argument for both sides is "there'd be people there".

I can't speak on the "consistently" matter, as I'm not in a gang like that, and don't do Crime at PD, but I see the issue there

[Bala]

1 hour ago, DontSniffSugar said:

I will have to respectfully disagree with this suggestion. 

Removing them from being No Crime Zones has introduced lots of roleplay, as stated by the previous people that have responded.

 

On the topic of cars getting broken into or stolen, there's plenty of ways to circumvent this issue. Don't leave valuables in your vehicle, or park it at City Parking, which is not even a block away. To the extent of my knowledge (I do apologize if I'm wrong) the LEO factions allow you to store items in your personal lockers so you don't have to risk losing valuable items.

Respectfully list some examples of how it's changed things for the better then.

What roleplay has it created? Smashing stuff up inside the PD? Shooting inside a hospital? Pick locking PD vehicles inside Mission Row Garage?

So, in order to accommodate some of the most non-sensical roleplay I've seen in 1700 days, if I don't want my car going through or stealing, I've got to run from City Parking to Mission Row every time or I've got to not use a feature of my vehicle, because people cannot understand that stealing vehicles from a Police Department is perhaps one of the stupidest things that you could do?

Make it make sense, please. 

[Osborn]

1 hour ago, Hazel said:

It's not about creating rules to force people to behave, it's about enforcing rules consistently across the board. Why do I have to follow Fear RP around a gang HQ while it's seemingly acceptable to commit crimes at Mission Row if the argument for both sides is "there'd be people there".

Comparing a gang headquarters to Mission Row is like comparing apples to oranges for me. Mission Row, as a police station, is not inherently dangerous and is designed to ensure the safety of individuals, contributing to their well-being. On the contrary, a gang headquarters embodies the opposite, it is a criminal area where individuals have the capability of causing harm or even threatening lives. While breaking a law and attempting to burglarize a car may result in imprisonment at Mission Row, doing the same near a gang HQ could escalate to the point of being shot or even losing one's life.

Regarding the suggestion, I will maintain a neutral stance. Personally, I haven't encountered anything overly negative, aside from a few situations at Pillbox MD. However, from an SD perspective, our station has generally been fine, with occasional issues such as picklocking and theft of items.