Make it NRP for crims to call cops period.

[TheGrinch]

If you're engaging in any illegal activity, it should be NRP to call cops to gain an advantage in the situation. your friend are chopping in sea we hold em up, you call cops just because yk your friends have less to loose and to be petty. However you're still in effect snitching on your friends. Over all if you're an illegal faction that engages in illegal activity frequently, whether it be chopping cars or holding labs you shouldn't be calling cops.

[Melody Frey]

I could be wrong, but I think there are reports that have been accepted for NRP for this very thing. Here's at least one I found:

 

[AnakinB]

On 10/16/2023 at 1:11 AM, TheGrinch said:

If you're engaging in any illegal activity, it should be NRP to call cops to gain an advantage in the situation. your friend are chopping in sea we hold em up, you call cops just because yk your friends have less to loose and to be petty. However you're still in effect snitching on your friends. Over all if you're an illegal faction that engages in illegal activity frequently, whether it be chopping cars or holding labs you shouldn't be calling cops.

nah bro im a snitch straight up i am

[Requiem]

10 hours ago, AnakinB said:

nah bro im a snitch straight up i am

we know....

[TheCactus]

On 10/16/2023 at 7:11 AM, TheGrinch said:

If you're engaging in any illegal activity, it should be NRP to call cops to gain an advantage in the situation. your friend are chopping in sea we hold em up, you call cops just because yk your friends have less to loose and to be petty. However you're still in effect snitching on your friends. Over all if you're an illegal faction that engages in illegal activity frequently, whether it be chopping cars or holding labs you shouldn't be calling cops.

I would by all means call the cops if it makes the difference between life and death. If they do call the cops for such a situation, you can shoot them dead on the spot.

[AtlasOLimbo]

If something is NRP, it's already being punished as such. We need to stop introducing new restrictions and regulations on an already convoluted set of rules.

[Eliza]

I personally believe that it would depend on the context.

 

You’re cooking drugs at a lab and someone robs you? You wouldn’t call the cops and say that you got robbed while you’re cooking illegal narcotics.

 

You’re somewhere like Burgershot just getting some food and someone robs you? Go for it.

 

A lot of criminal factions will however boot you from the faction if they find out you’re calling the police though.

 

I don’t think hardened criminals would call the police though realistically and just handle the situation in their own hands. It would be something more of a white collar criminal would do.

[TheGrinch]

2 hours ago, DontSniffSugar said:

I personally believe that it would depend on the context.

 

You’re cooking drugs at a lab and someone robs you? You wouldn’t call the cops and say that you got robbed while you’re cooking illegal narcotics.

 

You’re somewhere like Burgershot just getting some food and someone robs you? Go for it.

 

A lot of criminal factions will however boot you from the faction if they find out you’re calling the police though.

 

I don’t think hardened criminals would call the police though realistically and just handle the situation in their own hands. It would be something more of a white collar criminal would do.

majority of the times its the person cooking drugs who wants to call the cops.

[Quietthecutie]

Necroing this. lately there had been a worrying trend of Criminals rolling into a lab/chop spot and instead of fighting or raiding, deciding just to break off and call the cops.

This is completely NRP. there people are criminals in their own gang, then deciding to call the cops because the situation they roll by is to big for themselves to handle and decide instead of letting it be, to call cops, totally out of the RP remit of their character. the cops have an almost infinite ammount of resources to call upon so its an unwinnable situation for a gang that was willing to commit the time, effort and resources to effectively protect their operation from another gang, and when that gang realised it they just went and called cops out of spite. 

Case and point the recent one i was involved in which was UNIX
 

Context:

My gang had set up a discrette full chop in a location far away from any LEO patrols. while chopping one person in a BF had circled down to this area and seen us. them being only one person, break off and clear the area. however they call the cops once they have left, which is completely out of their character to do so, being a known criminal affiliated to a gang, but they do it anyway out of spite in the spirit of "if i cant win ill make sure you lose."

To be clear, i have nothing against a rival gang raiding/attacking a setup an existing gang has, my problem is with a gang looking at a setup, deciding "no, we cant beat that" and then deciding out of total spite just to dial 911 and report it to the cops, completely out of character behaviour which contributes to the total drain of criminal RP currently happening.

This kinda shit, just kills crim RP from the inside. theres a heavy cop presence? ok lets go under the radar, do chops in quiet locations. keep it on the down low. dosent matter. one criminal with a phone and a BF just destroys your operation and costs you 100s of thousands. not so they can gain anything, just so you can not have it.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[Quietthecutie]

.

 

[Clank]

2 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

Necroing this. lately there had been a worrying trend of Criminals rolling into a lab/chop spot and instead of fighting or raiding, deciding just to break off and call the cops.

This is completely NRP. there people are criminals in their own gang, then deciding to call the cops because the situation they roll by is to big for themselves to handle and decide instead of letting it be, to call cops, totally out of the RP remit of their character. the cops have an almost infinite ammount of resources to call upon so its an unwinnable situation for a gang that was willing to commit the time, effort and resources to effectively protect their operation from another gang, and when that gang realised it they just went and called cops out of spite. 

Case and point the recent one i was involved in which was UNIX
 

Context:

My gang had set up a discrette full chop in a location far away from any LEO patrols. while chopping one person in a BF had circled down to this area and seen us. them being only one person, break off and clear the area. however they call the cops once they have left, which is completely out of their character to do so, being a known criminal affiliated to a gang, but they do it anyway out of spite in the spirit of "if i cant win ill make sure you lose."

To be clear, i have nothing against a rival gang raiding/attacking a setup an existing gang has, my problem is with a gang looking at a setup, deciding "no, we cant beat that" and then deciding out of total spite just to dial 911 and report it to the cops, completely out of character behaviour which contributes to the total drain of criminal RP currently happening.

This kinda shit, just kills crim RP from the inside. theres a heavy cop presence? ok lets go under the radar, do chops in quiet locations. keep it on the down low. dosent matter. one criminal with a phone and a BF just destroys your operation and costs you 100s of thousands. not so they can gain anything, just so you can not have it.

I was at the situation you're talking about. I won't reveal exactly what happened so I don't ruin any RP that can come from it.

However, I will say that I personally don't see an issue with a criminal organization snitching on a RIVAL organization. What difference does it make if they're snitching on their own gang or another gang?

One could argue that making an IA report would fall under the same pretense no? People hate snitches in general, but thats exactly why they hate them because it diminishes the gains of others. I don't understand the logic of saying "criminals shouldn't snitch on other criminals" why is it so taboo? If your character had the opportunity to make money or get personal gain would they not snitch on someone? 

Take it from someone that has seen both sides of the stick, you'd be surprised how many people will flame rival organizations for snitching but then hit my characters line up doing the same thing. Its human cognitive bias, just how our minds work. 

People forum report opposing factions all the time and let me tell you a lot of the time it's out of spite why is ICly calling the police /any/ different?

 

People are malicious and SWAT people all the time irl, some people will literally just want to see the downfall of others. You'd be surprised how spiteful things can get.

 

EDIT: You'd be surprised with how a lot of the times, its not even a criminal snitching but a legal person instead.

Also in regards to criminals snitching, I think its bold to assume people do not gain from snitching. You'd be surprised the salary a snitch for PD has ; ) https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/viewtopic.php?t=172728

Edited June 23, 2024 by Clank

[Netlok]

Making an IA report would be the complete opposite of a criminal snitching to the cops, IA reporting you are trying to get your fellow officers to behave inline with your departments code of conduct, You arent diminishing the gains of others by IA reporting, You are highlighting misconduct. And snitching would not be something inline with the average criminals morals. You outline that people snitch because they have something to gain from it but then just completely undermine your own point and say that people do it purely out of spite which would not be causing a gain for them at all. Also equating pointing out an opposing faction breaking OOC rules to taking IC actions against a faction is a horrible point to make and is just presuming people are mixing with their actions and doesnt really pertain to the conversation at hand anyways.

Now I feel that criminals should be able to snitch on some level and it does promote healthy RP if done in the right way, but on the other side I feel it definetly has been getting out of hand lately with high ranking members of gangs snitching on others because they find it funny or calling cops on rival gangs just because your numbers are low at the time and you dont feel you can win the fight. I feel these behaviours should be curbed as it doesnt promote a healthy RP environment on the criminal side. It really just incentivizes troll behaviors and most of the time doesnt even allow for following RP as the person will be masked up and drive off before discretely calling and then never returning to the area.  I feel at some point it gets to a point of NRP if your RPing as a criminal but just rely on the cops for every situation you cant personally handle. 

Edited June 23, 2024 by Netlok

[Clank]

2 minutes ago, Netlok said:

Making an IA report would be the complete opposite of a criminal snitching to the cops, IA reporting you are trying to get your fellow officers to behave inline with your departments code of conduct, You arent diminishing the gains of others by IA reporting, You are highlighting misconduct. And snitching would not be something inline with the average criminals morals. You outline that people snitch because they have something to gain from it but then just completely undermine your own point and say that people do it purely out of spite which would not be causing a gain for them at all. Also equating pointing out an opposing faction breaking OOC rules to taking IC actions against a faction is a horrible point to make and is just presuming people are mixing with their actions and doesnt really pertain to the conversation at hand anyways.

Now I feel that criminal should be able to snitch on some level and it does promote healthy RP if done in the right way, but on the other side I feel it definetly has been getting out of hand lately with high ranking members of gangs snitching on others because they find it funny or calling cops on rival gangs just because your numbers are low at the time and you dont feel you can win the fight should be curbed as it doesnt promote a healthy RP enviroment on the criminal side. It really just incentivizes troll behaviors and most of the time doesnt even allow for following RP as the person will be masked up and drive off before discretely calling and then never returning to the area.  I feel at some point it gets to a point of NRP if your RPing as a criminal but just rely on the cops for every situation you cant personally handle. 

The basis of my post was that the human mind is an enigma and there's truly no way to pinpoint why people do certain things. Some people will snitch out of spite, some people will snitch out of gain.

Going running to IA /is/ on the same ground as someone snitching to the police. If you want to argue "highlighting misconduct" you can also say that criminals going to the police about other organizations is highlighting misconduct.

People DO post forum reports out of spite. I have seen plenty of gang on gang beef completely tainted by people rushing to post forum reports instead of handling their issues on through RP. There is a reason I don't post forum reports, it just leads down a spiral of negative feelings for everyone involved.

 

The situation you mention about most of the time RP leading nowhere because of masks is a problem created by the players themselves which has seen zero improvement in over 5 years. Masks are too prevalent but that is a community issue that needs to be changed by the players themselves. Even finishing people off in gunfights is detrimental to the server because of the way the NLR rule works. Everyone wants to get their "Revenge RP arc" but nobody will take the time out of their day and ask themselves why that's not possible.

[Netlok]

Criminals going to the police about other criminals is in no way highlighting misconduct, IA reporting another officer as an officer is is no way like snitching, The comparison on the criminal side to an IA report would be that you notice your fellow gang member breaking an internal rule in your gang and you tell your gang leader about it, 

Just because some people may forum report out of spite and some people may mix their OOC feelings into their RP and vice versa doesnt mean everyone does,  those also arent behaviours we should promote anyways, These points also dont really relate the discussion at hand of whether it should be NRP to snitch on other criminals to the police as a criminal and where that line should be in that RP.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Netlok

[Netlok]

I can agree less masks and finishing people off would be healthier RP though

[astrx]

Every single crim in the server wearing a mask is an issue for sure, but I understand it simply because of people relying on the alias system to see a name and instantly know who they are without having to have any sort of recollection of who they actually are, such as remember clothing styles or character customization. I am a part of the problem simply for the reason I listed. 

Regarding snitching and the sorts, I get the point of making it NRP but it's going to happen regardless, but to highlight, this thread was only brought back up because you guys had a situation in which you lost valuable goods, otherwise, should this have not happened, this thread would still be covered in dust. I get not being happy with the outcome of this but you have to remember as Clank said, people do things for their own reasons whether that be for self gain or spitefulness respectively.

At the end of the day, it is what it is and it is what it isn't, this is where we as players need to buckle up and just move to the next thing. I'm not diminishing the idea of this, I'm simply stating that it's going to happen from time to time and we just need to deal with it as it is.

[Netlok]

I think the problem more so lies in that it has been happening with a fair bit of frequency as of late. Yes Quiet drew this up after a situation we recently had but the problem is more that it has been happening to us with a lot of regularity lately. Theres a couple groups we have been dealing with lately that pretty much every interaction we have with them is resulting in cops being involved and I have ICly heard similar accounts from people in other organizations. Yes i think snitching is always going to happen but with the frequency that it happens at and the reasoning for it happening often will demotivate criminal players. Its hard enough to organize 10-20 crims to all play together and work together on things without having to worry about dealing with constant gun fights from PD and SD which are uncapped factions with access to much better equipment then we can aquire. Usually these situations kill any RP that could have happened and turn it into non stop unwinnable PVP situations which many players dont find enjoyable to be in every night,

[Quietthecutie]

Allow me to put it another way:

One gang, takes the time and effort to set up a full chop spot.  this goes as such:

-Securing enough people to do the chop safely

-finding a location that is far enough off the grid it minimises suspicion from LEOs and the chance of them finding you

-committing a significant ammount of resources to set up and protect the chop (tools, car lift, engine hoist, toolbox, and heavy weaponry to protect it from rival gangs.) All in this is at least 300k worth of resources. 

-going around the city, picking and hotwiring cars and bringing them discreetly to the location.

-chopping those cars, then at the end organising transport to move those parts safely to either storage or a dealer.

All in all a very complex and commited RP scenario which multiple people have to commit alot of time and effort to make happen.

Now lets look at what the other guy did.

-got on his BF and started scouting locations

-stumbles across the chop spot. Keeps his distance so he cannot be identified or demands given.

-realises theres no way him or his gang can contest it. They would need multiple heavies, kamachos and a significant ammount of manpower to attack it.

-realises that he dosent have to attack it, he has someone on speed dial to do just that.

-dries away and calls the cops, then pulls up a lawnchair and watches the fireworks as PD respond in force.

Having committed absolutely nothing, one player has in 5 minutes destroyed what took a dozen hours to set up and cost them 100s of thousands.

Do you think this was fair or fun? Do you think the first group would be motivated to engage in more criminal RP? What is the point of commiting heavy weaponry when another criminal sees that and decides just to call cops instead of contesting it themselves, essientially using cops as a resource of their own.

[Bala]

There are certain aspects of what the OP said, that make sense. If people took character development seriously, why would you risk talking to the Police? Doing that in the criminal underworld is one of the worst things that you can do and yet people will do it because they're not playing a character but playing the game.

That said, it's an avenue that people should be able to go down if they want to do it. OOC, I think it's a little skeevy to do it. IC, I think my character would appreciate the heads up as a cop but still think it's kind of skeevy. 

What doesn't make any sense really is the whole hardened criminals using internal affairs. I get it if you are someone with minimal interaction with the cops or you're a full on civilian. If you feel you've been treated a certain way, absolutely right?

But, if you're a mass murdering, arrest a day kind of lunatic or you're one of these people chirping about how the government is corrupt and that, why would your character entrust the PD or SD to police itself in-character? I'd love to be able to be a little corrupt to people that are that far outside the law, I think it's more interesting but given the environment we have to act in, I'm locked in a box, because everyone records and everyone has a story to tell. I can't take Anakin Bringer to jail the long way and beat his ass in alley while he's cuffed, even though my character would love to because 9/10 times that'd end in me getting my character fired.

Bringing it back to the OP's discussion, we don't need to box up criminals and what actions they can do anymore. There just needs to be some common sense and some balance to it. That goes with all aspects of what criminals do in game, whether it's this or prison breaks or hostage situations or whatever. If the situation justifies it and the roleplay supports the sense behind it, go for it.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Bala

[Zion Willard]

I always found the animosity towards using police as a criminal confusing. Developed criminal syndicates commonly used police as a either a weapon against other warring / rival organizations, or they would provide information about others in exchange for the police leaving them alone. Here, we have this fake construct that its the worst thing to do - thats just something in tv. 

[Quietthecutie]

We are only looking at the argument through an IRL lens. 

yeah sure, IRL, some criminal syndicates might use the police against eachother (still seems unlikely because once you again a reputation as a rat your days are numbered. and this isnt hollywood have you seen the bodycount organisations like the outfit and mexican cartels racked up on informants?) 

However, lets move away from that side of the discussion. this is a videogame, and the servers balancing mechanics are based on risk vs reward.

If a rival gang discovers a location and wants to gather the boys and push it, I have absolutely no problem with that. because that rival gang is having to commit weapons, vehicles and equipment of their own. they are risking something for a reward. and the result will be an exciting, evenly matched shootout where both sides have a chance of winning and to the victor goes the spoils. cops can also get involved in this situation through responding to the gunfire if they are patrolling the area as per their factions role in the city.

What i dont agree with is coming across a lab/chop and realising you are outmatched, disengaging from the situation, then (because fuck this players oocly) calling the cops. the dozen or so players you just fucked over now have 0 motivation to do it again, because there was absolutely nothing they could do to counter that. so not only is their RP experience ruined, so is PDs, because what could have been an interesting PD roleplay of finding someone picking a car or driving one reported stolen, investigation, search and seizure. has just become a roll up to a given location and start dealing with arrests and clearing the scene. no one had fun in this scenario. i dont think a single bullet was even fired.

so both the choppers and LEOs lose RP to this, and the person who called the cops gains nothing other than a POV clip he will prolly share with the boys in a private discord for a good laugh at other players expense. This is not a fun experience for anyone and it massively demotivates crims who actually want to engage in crim RP, Robs LEOs of interesting situation, and overall makes me wonder why i bother when i could just work burgershot for 1k every 10 minutes risk free.

[Mikazuki Ueno]

Wasn't the chop operation set up in the international airport's parking structure in this case? I understand it's not ideal to have someone stumble across or hear the work being done, and it's less risky, but the location seemed kind of non-RP to me from the start.

It was broad daylight with MANY people would RPly be coming and going, and the chop was set up openly inside the structure. Discussing what should be considered non-RP behavior may be better in a situation where people were already participating in non-RP activity. It's far more likely someone using the parking structure or a security guard would call in: "Uh, there's a bunch of people who are just set up here ripping apart cars.."

I don't do this kind of RP these days, but when I did, we'd roll a die and decide which of 6 places we would be doing the chopping that session.  In my opinion, it should be done at night, far away from local, high-traffic places, with minimal people knowing where it is, and with the location changing often to keep it moving.

I don't think any changes need to be made. I think the risk of upsetting someone who knows about your operation or who comes across it is something you need to manage and deal with when doing these sorts of activities.

 

Edited June 23, 2024 by Mikazuki Ueno

[Quietthecutie]

15 minutes ago, Mikazuki Ueno said:

Wasn't the chop operation set up in the international airport's parking structure in this case? I understand it's not ideal to have someone stumble across or hear the work being done, and it's less risky, but the location seemed kind of non-RP to me from the start.

It was broad daylight with MANY people coming and going, and the chop was set up openly inside the structure. I think discussing what should be considered non-RP behavior may be better in a situation where it seems people were already participating in non-RP activity.

I don't think any changes need to be made. I think the risk of upsetting someone who knows about your operation or who comes across it is something you need to manage and deal with when doing these sorts of activities. In my opinion, it should be done at night, far away from local, high-traffic places, with minimal people knowing where it is, and with the location changing often to keep it moving.

I don't do this kind of RP these days, but when I did, we'd roll a die and decide which of 6 places we would be doing the chopping that session.  

You are mistaken. This scenario was not staged at an airport. this incident happened last night.

The location was well off the grid, far away from any major landmark, economic building or even residential area. we were careful. we choose the location carefully. and barring a major screwup by one of our car thieves it would have been nigh impossible for LEOs to detect it. We brought enough weaponry that it would have taken an extremely well equipped criminal gang to effectively assault us.

All of that organisation goes out the window if another criminal whos just offroading in the area can drop a pin and alert cops to our location out of a sheer whim to ruin someone elses RP experience. why bother?

In brief, as the old saying often parroted by LEO mains go, We played it smart. and it didnt matter.

Edited June 23, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[Zion Willard]

3 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

We are only looking at the argument through an IRL lens. 
 

You may think so, but I'm not. If some rival faction or player has an issue with you and found out the location of your private chop shop etc then i see no issue with them trying to weaponize the police department. It is just a consequence of your interactions.

[Clank]

5 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

All of that organisation goes out the window if another criminal whos just offroading in the area can drop a pin and alert cops to our location out of a sheer whim to ruin someone elses RP experience. why bother?

In brief, as the old saying often parroted by LEO mains go, We played it smart. and it didnt matter.

Well no, your operation got discovered. While it might have seemed smart, you still got found out. 

Why is them reporting you to police automatically reduced down to "Ruining someone elses RP experience". You losing your assets in game should not be compared to ruining an RP experience. This is not tarkov, gear fear should not be a thing. Your character goes out to do illegal activities, you mentally should be ready to possibly lose whatever your character has on them.

 

If your character does something IC to someone, perhaps robbing them. Does this automatically mean they can claim "you are ruining my rp experience"? 

 

We have to disconnect how we feel OOCly about something and focus on "How does my character deal with this" instead.