Separate internal Investigation faction for LSPD and SPD.

[Bronnen]

10 hours ago, Clank said:

 

Normally all I do is shitpost on the forums and joke around. Due to this comment, i'll get serious for a bit. Your statement here that I quoted is the biggest false narrative I've ever heard. Any time an interaction with ANYONE does not go someone's way it goes to "SAVE POV FOR.. <insert rule here>."

 

If what you're saying is true, the amount of forum reports would be minimal, but no. Attachment to assets, winning conflict over forum reports and attempting to get opposition banned is easier for players than taking an L on an RP server. 

 

Before anyone argues "but i lose so much when I get arrested". This statement is irrelevant because someone interested in playing a character does not give a fuck about the monetary value of assets. Someone here to create RP experiences shouldn't be grinding for assets. If you're playing a gangster character that flexes and strongarms everyone and one of your enemies runs up and just blasts you while you're sitting in your car doing nothing and your first instinct is "SAVE POV FOR DEATHMATCH", then sorry to say you're playing an RP game wrong. 

Yes it does happen. People do get upset. However, the number of reports per day vs the number of times people get arrested a day doesn't match that. It's just the vocal minority that make it seem like that.

 

We're getting off topic here though 

[CalvinKlein]

9 hours ago, Bala said:

This circles back to it not really being a server that is lead by roleplay, but by assets and winning with roleplay in the background somewhere.
You take out your frustrations on PD / SD because we are your opposition in the server. Your job is to do whatever you can to get over, our job is to stop you.

Us putting you in prison limits your freedom, both IC and OOC for what you can do in the server but it can also cost you quite significantly.

For small time criminals and I say this not as an expert but as someone that's played a few hours on crim recently, it's such a limited experience and in actuality, quite a negative one, being a crim. If you aren't getting robbed, you're getting caught by PD/SD and having to go through the fines. You can make money in prison but prison is such a coin flip experience as well.

The things you did to get to that point, aren't really that engaging either. You need multiple people to rob a store, ATM robberies and even house robberies are unfulfilling. Public labs were never put back to how they originally were supposed to be. The only thing that I think is somewhat of a bright spark, is the vehicle chopping. 

Do that day in, day out. Month after month. It'd ruin anyone's sunny disposition. 

Reality is, if you're enjoying your experience being a crim and advancing towards whatever your goal is and you get arrested, you don't give a shit as much. But if you're not enjoying yourself and PD/SD are forcing you into a more negative situation, of course you're going to feel some type of way about them.

We're not the enemy, not really.

just to be clear none of my comments stem from any attachments towards any assets whatsoever, I personally have been to DOC only 50-60 times with an account as old as mine, I don’t care about being arrested and I don’t get arrested often and when I do , I compared it to a random house alarm trigger (not that even rob houses); the game needs PD to function, my comments also don’t stem from that single person and my comments about them but rather used that person as an example to how some LEOs differ from other in terms of bending backwards to win a situation sometimes in an unfair way, as a most recent report has shown when 2 guys (that I don’t know) got shot at by and at the order of that person for 1. Climbing a ladder after a chase 2. Trying to get on a drag, however a report was made and the he LEOs received a poor RP punishment so it was indeed dealt with, my aim was for those situations to be minimized in frequency to where there’s no need for a report to be made

[CalvinKlein]

13 hours ago, Clank said:

HAHAHHA

[Teenyinnit]

On 8/26/2023 at 6:44 PM, Bronnen said:

They arrest no one, press no charges, fire no one, or even bring charges to the prosecutors.

 

I believe this to be false - I recently made an IA about a Detective and it was actioned.

I'm not the hugest fan of some of the boots on the ground PD but the paperwork side done by the higher ups is actually above reproach in my opinion

[TheCactus]

@Pazz @Beet @MrSilky @HobGoblin @Clank Guys, it's time to stop!

I can't like all your comments.

[FishFace]

On 8/28/2023 at 7:20 PM, Bala said:

Take it easy there Johnnie Cochran.
Things like basing actions on IRL counterparts means exactly 0 if you're forgetting the sort of player base you have, playing what is only a game, thus the "play" in roleplay.

You need people that are experienced in law enforcement from doing it for a lengthy period of time, not just people that watch a couple episodes of Law and Order and do a Google Search. 

In Eclipse, what it boils down to, for most players is, if system benefit me, system good. If system no benefit me, system bad.

you naming some higher ups in PD with 5years of gaming experience like they went to moon and came back dawg, also name 1 system where it's not benefiting PD and SD

[Shwy]

On 8/31/2023 at 12:37 AM, Clank said:

We need to take LSPD and move their jurisdiction to Cayo Perico and have them based there. Then have Los Santos patrolled by the citizens as a well regulated militia. SD can stay in the county (they kinda mid).

We need to bring in the National Guard

make sure the crimes realize they cannot win

[Apex]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:44 PM, Bronnen said:

They arrest no one, press no charges, fire no one, or even bring charges to the prosecutors. 

Yeah see I'm pretty sure that they do, not like I'd know or anything but I'm just assuming that they do, just a thought..

Anyway all my homies hate IA

[Bala]

9 hours ago, FishFace said:

you naming some higher ups in PD with 5years of gaming experience like they went to moon and came back dawg, also name 1 system where it's not benefiting PD and SD

You want to let this community decide instead? Dog. Like the player base knows what’s good for it lol. Most of those guys I mentioned are staff and have been for a long time so they know how to investigate and punish, both IC and OOC. Even if they were not good at doing it, they’d still probably be the best at it.

IA isn’t to protect PD or SD, it’s to hold them to account. Beyond investigating those complaints, there are weekly discussions on people who have fucked up and need to have action take against them.

I don’t personally care about protecting anyone other than myself. If someone has messed up in PD, they’ll be held accountable. Just like I am when I fuck up. I’ve been in four and a half years and there’s been times where I’ve nearly got my ass kicked out over some stuff.

But most people won’t hear about it because it’s none of their business. 

IA worked good before JB and worked good after JB too. Just unfortunate that we had to add a third party to give the illusion of making a just and fair decision. 

[FishFace]

14 minutes ago, Bala said:

You want to let this community decide instead? Dog. Like the player base knows what’s good for it lol. Most of those guys I mentioned are staff and have been for a long time so they know how to investigate and punish, both IC and OOC. Even if they were not good at doing it, they’d still probably be the best at it.

IA isn’t to protect PD or SD, it’s to hold them to account. Beyond investigating those complaints, there are weekly discussions on people who have fucked up and need to have action take against them.

I don’t personally care about protecting anyone other than myself. If someone has messed up in PD, they’ll be held accountable. Just like I am when I fuck up. I’ve been in four and a half years and there’s been times where I’ve nearly got my ass kicked out over some stuff.

But most people won’t hear about it because it’s none of their business. 

IA worked good before JB and worked good after JB too. Just unfortunate that we had to add a third party to give the illusion of making a just and fair decision. 

yeah it's so unfortunate that a third party can hold you accountable for a second right? so unfortunate

[AtlasOLimbo]

I believe that the "pursue this IC" response brings up a much needed discussion. Recent attempts to pursue justice IC (founded or non-founded) have just ended up at the feet of Lewis (or any other Governor) where they are the sole dictator on what slides and what doesn't. The governors are not elected officials and rarely listen to the will of the player, IC or OOC. There needs to be more democratically charged checks and balances for IC pursuance to go anywhere. Even this issue itself could be considered an IC issue, but I think that's where some of the problem lies in the cycle.

If one wants to truly riot/protest, they are met with a water truck and sprayed down until they're injured or leave. Start damaging cop cars in retaliation? They're brought back to the precinct, deleted and respawned without any damage or cost to the faction. Hell, kill a cop as retaliation? They respawn and it's of no harm to the faction in the long-term. With some of the things that occur, there would be full on long-lasting riots, but with the way the server works these are squashed in minutes.

 

[CalvinKlein]

24 minutes ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

I believe that the "pursue this IC" response brings up a much needed discussion. Recent attempts to pursue justice IC (founded or non-founded) have just ended up at the feet of Lewis (or any other Governor) where they are the sole dictator on what slides and what doesn't. The governors are not elected officials and rarely listen to the will of the player, IC or OOC. There needs to be more democratically charged checks and balances for IC pursuance to go anywhere. Even this issue itself could be considered an IC issue, but I think that's where some of the problem lies in the cycle.

If one wants to truly riot/protest, they are met with a water truck and sprayed down until they're injured or leave. Start damaging cop cars in retaliation? They're brought back to the precinct, deleted and respawned without any damage or cost to the faction. Hell, kill a cop as retaliation? They respawn and it's of no harm to the faction in the long-term. With some of the things that occur, there would be full on long-lasting riots, but with the way the server works these are squashed in minutes.

 

No you get reported for DM / Non-RP / Cop baiting 

[AtlasOLimbo]

7 minutes ago, CalvinKlein said:

No you get reported for DM / Non-RP / Cop baiting 

This isn't a helpful reply at all, please refrain.

[CalvinKlein]

52 minutes ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

This isn't a helpful reply at all, please refrain.

How come ? That only contributes more to the fact that it’s not entirely an “IC issue” since there’s OOC rules/regulations in place that you have to follow that make you unable to completely treat it as an IC issue. 
 

If the whole “city of LS” decides to riot / revolt / create chaos and violence against the government and take matters into their hands ICLY that’ll result in reports.

 

but if you talk about it OOC it’s an ic issue.

 

despite many FM regulations (regarding alliances , frequencies, 30 member cap) all being IC stuff yet oocly enforced. 

Edited September 6, 2023 by CalvinKlein

[AtlasOLimbo]

5 hours ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

I believe that the "pursue this IC" response brings up a much needed discussion. Recent attempts to pursue justice IC (founded or non-founded) have just ended up at the feet of Lewis (or any other Governor) where they are the sole dictator on what slides and what doesn't. The governors are not elected officials and rarely listen to the will of the player, IC or OOC. There needs to be more democratically charged checks and balances for IC pursuance to go anywhere. Even this issue itself could be considered an IC issue, but I think that's where some of the problem lies in the cycle.

If one wants to truly riot/protest, they are met with a water truck and sprayed down until they're injured or leave. Start damaging cop cars in retaliation? They're brought back to the precinct, deleted and respawned without any damage or cost to the faction. Hell, kill a cop as retaliation? They respawn and it's of no harm to the faction in the long-term. With some of the things that occur, there would be full on long-lasting riots, but with the way the server works these are squashed in minutes.

 

@Pazz Given your reaction to this post, are you working to do what you can in terms of the PD side of this issue in your newly appointed position?

[Bala]

12 hours ago, FishFace said:

yeah it's so unfortunate that a third party can hold you accountable for a second right? so unfortunate

It's unfortunate when that third party shows itself to be inconsistent in it's application, yeah it is.

What you don't want, with things like IA, is inconsistency and results may vary. Not getting the result you want isn't the same as the wrong outcome. 

That's why I'm saying, we're better off with people like Silky, Pazz, Osborn, Flow etc.. experienced cop roleplayers, at a high level with staff experience handling this stuff. 

[Clank]

You know what? Fuck it I volunteer to be the 3rd party investigator..

[Cyrus Raven]

3 hours ago, Bala said:

It's unfortunate when that third party shows itself to be inconsistent in it's application, yeah it is.

This is not true and sounds IC. But I can only give you vague answers to vague comments, feel free to elaborate.

[Melody Frey]

Adding my two cents as I have exclusively been a criminal my entire time on Eclipse, I think the system is fairly fine the way it is with IA's. While I would not mind IA's also being looked at by LFM potentially or even handled by LFM, I think it's okay for the most part right now. I think a big issue that causes the misunderstanding of the IA system is the misuse of it. People often IA of the absolute strangest and pettiest of things, like a cop enforcing mask concealment or giving a ticket. I think that if you misuse it frequently, it's very hard to get an understanding of. An example I can give is I once IA'd an officer when I first started up on the server over them making remarks about me being trans and/or my voice. The officer was punished, and they sent an apology over to me about it. 

The system in place does work, speaking from experience. I wouldn't mind LFM helping out a little or overseeing stuff sometimes, but as far as I know; it works and if it works why try to fix it?

[Clank]

The craziest part to me about this entire conversation is players roleplaying as cop killers relying on internal affairs to handle their issues. As if someone like that would ever go through the internal affairs process. 

I think a lot of people forget they're playing characters and their characters actions have consequences, they should also play their characters in a way that cop killers and hardened gangsters would. When someone that just finished shooting and murdering 3 cops on a scene gets shot down and the first thing they scream is "BADGE NUMBERS", it kind of turns into a joke at that point.

Same thing with people posting forum reports. Ive seen so many players that want to PVP, have every intention to PVP and even attempt to bait shootouts that get shot earlier than expected and then they immediately go to forum reports. I have personally witnessed someone get a gun pulled on them at a lab, they SLOWLY drive away, WAIT FOR THE PERSON THAT PULLED ON THEM TO GET IN THEIR CAR, do a loop in place to let them catch up, then only when the person catches up do they drive off. Then they get shot before their gang can set up and ambush and they immediately cry DM.

Its a plague in the community. RP your cop killer properly in game and stop crying to internal affairs, stop getting salty your enemies send you to pillbox. 

[Melody Frey]

8 minutes ago, Clank said:

The craziest part to me about this entire conversation is players roleplaying as cop killers relying on internal affairs to handle their issues. As if someone like that would ever go through the internal affairs process. 

+1.

[Cyrus Raven]

16 minutes ago, Clank said:

The craziest part to me about this entire conversation is players roleplaying as cop killers relying on internal affairs to handle their issues. As if someone like that would ever go through the internal affairs process. 

I think a lot of people forget they're playing characters and their characters actions have consequences, they should also play their characters in a way that cop killers and hardened gangsters would. When someone that just finished shooting and murdering 3 cops on a scene gets shot down and the first thing they scream is "BADGE NUMBERS", it kind of turns into a joke at that point.

Same thing with people posting forum reports. Ive seen so many players that want to PVP, have every intention to PVP and even attempt to bait shootouts that get shot earlier than expected and then they immediately go to forum reports. I have personally witnessed someone get a gun pulled on them at a lab, they SLOWLY drive away, WAIT FOR THE PERSON THAT PULLED ON THEM TO GET IN THEIR CAR, do a loop in place to let them catch up, then only when the person catches up do they drive off. Then they get shot before their gang can set up and ambush and they immediately cry DM.

Its a plague in the community. RP your cop killer properly in game and stop crying to internal affairs, stop getting salty your enemies send you to pillbox. 

Based and true, the counter-argument (i think) would be:

- Players don't feel like they can properly RP a retaliation without first having to check a dozen boxes regarding OOC DM/KOS rules, which they feel retracts from the IC experience. (e.g A gang gets raided by two known gang detectives, that gang can't just pull up and do a drive-by on these Detectives without a word)

- The very nature of players being able to respawn, even with NLR, effectively means that someone can't just be dealt with via an IC death, which makes criminal players feel like the best recourse is to try and get that person fired via an IA report

Edited September 7, 2023 by Cyrus Raven

[Apex]

34 minutes ago, Clank said:

The craziest part to me about this entire conversation is players roleplaying as cop killers relying on internal affairs to handle their issues. As if someone like that would ever go through the internal affairs process. 

Nothing beats crims IA reporting especially when their whole lore is how LEOs are corrupt and that u can't trust the system

[FishFace]

40 minutes ago, Clank said:

The craziest part to me about this entire conversation is players roleplaying as cop killers relying on internal affairs to handle their issues. As if someone like that would ever go through the internal affairs process. 

I think a lot of people forget they're playing characters and their characters actions have consequences, they should also play their characters in a way that cop killers and hardened gangsters would. When someone that just finished shooting and murdering 3 cops on a scene gets shot down and the first thing they scream is "BADGE NUMBERS", it kind of turns into a joke at that point.

Same thing with people posting forum reports. Ive seen so many players that want to PVP, have every intention to PVP and even attempt to bait shootouts that get shot earlier than expected and then they immediately go to forum reports. I have personally witnessed someone get a gun pulled on them at a lab, they SLOWLY drive away, WAIT FOR THE PERSON THAT PULLED ON THEM TO GET IN THEIR CAR, do a loop in place to let them catch up, then only when the person catches up do they drive off. Then they get shot before their gang can set up and ambush and they immediately cry DM.

Its a plague in the community. RP your cop killer properly in game and stop crying to internal affairs, stop getting salty your enemies send you to pillbox. 

however the individual wants to roleplay their character, they might roleplay as a soft crybaby individual who only acts tough, anyway this ain't a good place to explain basic roleplay stuff

 

5 hours ago, Bala said:

It's unfortunate when that third party shows itself to be inconsistent in it's application, yeah it is.

What you don't want, with things like IA, is inconsistency and results may vary. Not getting the result you want isn't the same as the wrong outcome. 

That's why I'm saying, we're better off with people like Silky, Pazz, Osborn, Flow etc.. experienced cop roleplayers, at a high level with staff experience handling this stuff. 

Too bad it's IC as Cyrus said Bala, approach them IC and sort it out

[HobGoblin]

1 hour ago, Cyrus Raven said:

Based and true, the counter-argument (i think) would be:

- Players don't feel like they can properly RP a retaliation without first having to check a dozen boxes regarding OOC DM/KOS rules, which they feel retracts from the IC experience. (e.g A gang gets raided by two known gang detectives, that gang can't just pull up and do a drive-by on these Detectives without a word)

- The very nature of players being able to respawn, even with NLR, effectively means that someone can't just be dealt with via an IC death, which makes criminal players feel like the best recourse is to try and get that person fired via an IA report

DM rules need to be changed. 
A few of us in PD were talking about situations like this after the raids. We all expected an IC retaliation for the raids. 
 

With the current rules the only way I see things like this working is two people/groups agreeing OOC that KOS is allowed or something in regards to relation IC. Some people will want to retaliate differently.