Separate internal Investigation faction for LSPD and SPD.

[Pazz]

7 hours ago, AtlasOLimbo said:

@Pazz Given your reaction to this post, are you working to do what you can in terms of the PD side of this issue in your newly appointed position?

Mostly, my reaction is because I personally have a heavy dislike for any "find out IC" or "pursue this IC" remarks. Funnily enough, I did mention this exact thing at the start of this post, but that is mainly because, unfortunately, it is tough for these sorts of threads to stay civilized and productive, and while it is beneficial to gather opinions through a public forum, if it were suggested to SASG, whether IC or OOC, it'd be reviewed by some pretty fair and reasonable people. Osborn, for example, might portray his character in SD in a particular way, but I find him to be a very reasonable and levelheaded individual with consideration for most parties when reviewing something. I can't comment on his personal views, but I'd know that ample consideration and thought would be given to the topic if it came to him, and if he were to decide that it was to become a thing, then I'd likely be more accommodating than "PD bad" on the forums. Admittedly, that's why I've stopped replying but I'm still addressing your reply because I think that even if there was a disagreement or whatever, there's still sensibility and civility. 

To be candid, I'm not a fan of the idea of Governors. I have no issue with any of them as people, just to clarify, but I don't like that being at the top of the staff team while playing a legal character is practically a free ticket to unlimited power with little to no accountability or worry and without any qualifications per se. If I do something to the LSPD or the LSEMS Chief does something to the LSEMS that is entirely negative, we have to worry about whether our position is still tenable in the eyes of LFM and Governors/head administrators, Governors lack this oversight. The truth is, if the community, IC or OOC, turns heavily against any faction leader (especially non-staff) for valid reasons, there's a high chance they'll be replaced. If a Governor pisses off the player base, there's little to be done besides maybe a reversal of the decision.

I've always been a very strong proponent of some form of consequences, whether monetary or otherwise when a vehicle gets damaged and respawned or someone with spawned equipment dies. Contrary to popular belief, if this were to happen, it would have some impact, because finances for GOV factions aren't as easy as people think. We're capped, salaries are often a total sum of 8 figures, and sometimes leave very little funds left. Cash injections do not happen at all. There's enough wiggle room to function still since cruiser spawns do cost money (albeit a very insignificant amount and the funds are returned if the GPS/map are still present when parked) and a while ago I had our IA implement a baseline payout policy, but increasing the numbers of vehicle costs and changing how much is returned based on vehicle health instead of present items (or, alternatively, rework vehicle spawns entirely) would help in that regard. Killing cops in retaliation, I don't really know what to say to that, I'm not sure there's much we can do as faction leaders besides ensuring that with the PK comes the end of whatever conflict there was with NLR and whatnot. 

As for addressing issues from the side of the LSPD, I may be stubborn in some of my beliefs, but I take pride in for the most part being approachable and reasonable.  There's always room for improvement but I strongly believe in two-way streets. Protests shouldn't be squashed within mere minutes, riots should be; water trucks shouldn't be rolled out, or at least used, immediately when a riot begins, but there should not be an expectation that there won't be an adequate response to jumping on police vehicles, harassing officers and others, and doing property damage. Generally, I hold the belief that we can do better, others can do better, and the environment for this to happen could be better.

I do stand firm in my belief that there should always be a two-way street. Legal factions, especially LEOs, shouldn't be held to an unfair standard. Higher, maybe yeah, but there always seems to be this expectation that everyone can act like they're playing a video game and act like, for lack of better words, goons, and LEOs should aim to be entirely realistic. If the standard is players climbing police vehicles shouting severe profanities only under the guise of it being IC (not everyone, but, unfortunately, largely), then there should not be an expectation of severe professionalism and realism only from one side. They'll get tazed and dragged off because when they're told to get lost, they'll just start screaming louder. From a realistic perspective, there's a lot more de-escalation to do, from a gameplay perspective, none of that will really work on the player. In the same vein of "find out IC" and "pursue this IC" is an easy and often unfair copout, players calling this "character portrayal" and an "IC issue" is the same kind of copout and unwillingness to look at their own actions and how they fit into a roleplay environment. I'm not sure how to untwine the twisted sense of what is claimed to be 'character portrayal" and subsequent "roleplay" actions that plague the environment we play in.

All that said, yes, I do aim to over time make strides to improve the PD experience, inward and outward, but I can't justify a blanket expectation on all of my members when this isn't enforced to a similar (not the same) level on others. What I can do is review and listen to people and see where we may be able to generally do a little better, because even the smallest things can have a big effect.

 

1 hour ago, Cyrus Raven said:

- Players don't feel like they can properly RP a retaliation without first having to check a dozen boxes regarding OOC DM/KOS rules, which they feel retracts from the IC experience. (e.g A gang gets raided by two known gang detectives, that gang can't just pull up and do a drive-by on these Detectives without a word)

I believe this is a very good point that is spoken of time and time again but is never taken further than a forum post. DM rules are restrictive for illegal players. It is not at all uncommon for eg. a drive-by to happen on officers that have a reason to be retaliated against by a gang, street gang, or otherwise, or for a vehicle to drive through the block of another gang, drop some members, and dip, but the ECRP ruleset does not allow for this. It significantly hinders any sort of retaliation that may come unexpectedly.

[FishFace]

1 hour ago, Cyrus Raven said:

Based and true, the counter-argument (i think) would be:

- Players don't feel like they can properly RP a retaliation without first having to check a dozen boxes regarding OOC DM/KOS rules, which they feel retracts from the IC experience. (e.g A gang gets raided by two known gang detectives, that gang can't just pull up and do a drive-by on these Detectives without a word)

- The very nature of players being able to respawn, even with NLR, effectively means that someone can't just be dealt with via an IC death, which makes criminal players feel like the best recourse is to try and get that person fired via an IA report

100% true, the fact that you can't do anything about it is so annoying, let's say you even get the DM rights to kill the detective, what happens afterwards? Literally nothing, the cop gets respawned and loses Literally nothing, not even a penny yet the crim loses absolutely everything.

You can see how gangs are scared to interact with cops because they are scared to lose their guns, stash etc. (Which is the way it should be)

In the other hand, cops absolutely don't give a flying frick cuz at the end of the day worst thing that can happen to their character is a simple NLR

[Requiem]

3 hours ago, FishFace said:

100% true, the fact that you can't do anything about it is so annoying, let's say you even get the DM rights to kill the detective, what happens afterwards? Literally nothing, the cop gets respawned and loses Literally nothing, not even a penny yet the crim loses absolutely everything.

You can see how gangs are scared to interact with cops because they are scared to lose their guns, stash etc. (Which is the way it should be)

In the other hand, cops absolutely don't give a flying frick cuz at the end of the day worst thing that can happen to their character is a simple NLR

I think your issue is that you're looking at it as who loses material assets. This is a roleplay server, and the "revenge story" should be about the story, escalation and roleplay of it. If you want to just DM and get wins, perhaps call of duty might suit you better. 

[FishFace]

17 minutes ago, Requiem said:

I think your issue is that you're looking at it as who loses material assets. This is a roleplay server, and the "revenge story" should be about the story, escalation and roleplay of it. If you want to just DM and get wins, perhaps call of duty might suit you better. 

not sure which part you couldn't understand so perhaps you should read what I said once again

[CalvinKlein]

8 hours ago, Clank said:

The craziest part to me about this entire conversation is players roleplaying as cop killers relying on internal affairs to handle their issues. As if someone like that would ever go through the internal affairs process. 

I think a lot of people forget they're playing characters and their characters actions have consequences, they should also play their characters in a way that cop killers and hardened gangsters would. When someone that just finished shooting and murdering 3 cops on a scene gets shot down and the first thing they scream is "BADGE NUMBERS", it kind of turns into a joke at that point.

Same thing with people posting forum reports. Ive seen so many players that want to PVP, have every intention to PVP and even attempt to bait shootouts that get shot earlier than expected and then they immediately go to forum reports. I have personally witnessed someone get a gun pulled on them at a lab, they SLOWLY drive away, WAIT FOR THE PERSON THAT PULLED ON THEM TO GET IN THEIR CAR, do a loop in place to let them catch up, then only when the person catches up do they drive off. Then they get shot before their gang can set up and ambush and they immediately cry DM.

Its a plague in the community. RP your cop killer properly in game and stop crying to internal affairs, stop getting salty your enemies send you to pillbox. 

I think you’re wrong no one here wants to kill cops and ask for badge numbers what u on about , if ur a crim and kill a cop and get arrested u keep ur mouth shut ICLY , you chose to shoot at cops..

 

idk why u either respond with trolls or smth that makes no sense here..

it so rare that someone decides to shoot cops (for the high xp crims) and complains when arrested., it’s usually when you’re chilling doing nothing and come get provoked or dealt with unreasonably that people complain, when if the roles were reversed it’d be non rp., if I was allowed to RP a “cop killer” who hates cops and kidnap / kill any cop who caused me trouble ICLY without a DM/ nonrp report I wouldn’t have any issues personally , however that’s not the case, also even big ambushes setup to help people escape PD had reports made from PD’s end when PD would get killed, later on when PD’s win rate slightly went below 100% for those ambushes because gangs started helping each other, FM OOCly stepped in saying gangs can’t help each other ? so now is it an IC issue or ooc Issue ?

[Clank]

10 hours ago, Cyrus Raven said:

Based and true, the counter-argument (i think) would be:

- Players don't feel like they can properly RP a retaliation without first having to check a dozen boxes regarding OOC DM/KOS rules, which they feel retracts from the IC experience. (e.g A gang gets raided by two known gang detectives, that gang can't just pull up and do a drive-by on these Detectives without a word)

- The very nature of players being able to respawn, even with NLR, effectively means that someone can't just be dealt with via an IC death, which makes criminal players feel like the best recourse is to try and get that person fired via an IA report

Glad you agree!

First bullet point, you hit the nail on the head with that one. The DM rule needs to be reworked. I have no issues being shot at as an LEO. I think people needing an entire storyline and a university level thesis to be able to shoot someone is ridiculous. I don't expect anyone I have IC beef with to have to check boxes to be able to kill me.

I'll RP as the type of detective to roll up to a gang block by myself and shoot-the-shit, talk smack playfully etc. Anyone in OTF can vouch for that @Chris_. Can they shoot me over it? Sure. Would I get mad if that did OOCly? No! Would their actions have consequences IN-CHARACTER though? ABSOLUTELY. 

I've been shot on sight by @PhenomenalX many times, I have not reported him a single time. If I survive, I'll get my get-back in game. If I spawn at pillbox then I take the L and move on. 

As long as people realize actions in game have consequences in game then I think the server would be in a better state.

__________

 

Second bullet point, I think NLRing someone is enough get-back in my honest opinion. Trying to get someone fired spirals to out-of-character hatred real fast if left unchecked. Not saying everyone turns bitter, but I have seen some bitter players file IA reports just because they have OOC hatred for others.

[moment]

@Clank

appreciate you buckaroo!!