Faction Loadout Inventory Change and RP Effects

[Melody Frey]

I want to start this thread off by saying I really do not want this to turn into a "Crims vs Cops" thread, because I want there to be checks and balances to my suggestions and I'm open to all criticism this post gets.

I strongly dislike Faction Loadouts being locked for LEOs, as do many people who are in the community. It's very difficult to not only explain ICly (I often have heard people refer to the reasons you cannot claim weapons from dead LEOs as "fingerprint locks" or "biometric locks") and it doesn't make any sense ICly, especially with us wanting to lean more towards a realistic standard. I have very frequently heard the reason as to why this cannot happen is that people used to "hunt" police down for their weapons, especially in the circumstances they have a very sought after weapon such as a Heavy Sniper or anything that exists in slim quantities.

I really dislike this being one of the majorly argued points, as anyone with a clapper mentality is normally dealt with by the rules as it is. I think that we could very, very easily implement a subset of rules that could further prevent LEO's from experiencing being "hunted" (such as making it NRP to rob a police officer for their weapons in public, as that is extremely unrealistic and the risk would not be worth it in this case) and there could even be extreme IC punishments for people in possession of LEO firearms. A new law could be added to the current set of laws that would be a more extreme Possession of an Illegal Firearm and on top of that; maybe even consider giving LEO's the right to raid that individual's properties upon being caught with LEO weaponry/armor. 

I don't necessarily want a reason to fight PD or SD, I just think that in the current state of ECRP; a change like this could really help benefit the environment and give more reason for those very dangerous situations where holding an officer hostage may be the only option, or searching an injured officer who was in a pursuit on a shinobi unit from a crash, and anything else that could potentially play out. This would make RP much more rewarding on both sides, and LEO's still have nothing to lose in these scenarios.

I don't want cops being hunted, I just want things to make more sense. If I steal a cruiser in real life (which obviously would be a terrible idea), there would very plainly be the weapons whatever officer left them there. If I killed an officer in real life (an even worse idea), then there would be his weapons and things I would have access to.

(Also, this isn't something I'd like to see for DOC as having a group of inmates with shotguns inside of DOC without prison break rights would be absolutely Hell)

Thoughts? Please give me a reason with any +1s and -1s, I genuinely want feedback and to see everyone's reasoning. Please don't become a Crim vs Cop thread  

[Hatter1990]

This would be monumental! It would allow a criminal org more incentive to try more operations that involve the police instead of avoiding them. However, there would also need to be a strict guideline where it would be NRP to have a police hostage pull out every weapon from a vehicle if they were held hostage just to give it to the crims. Just because you can pull out 10 snipers one at a time to hand them to crims in game does not make is realistic.

I would love to see some situations where we can set up an ambush for the LEOs with something to gain other than just taking them out. It would also put crims in a new world of watching over our backs as we would be dealing with guns that are registered as stolen police weapons. I feel that this should also apply to their body armor as well if they were killed without it becoming fully damaged. This would allow crims to literally wear the clothes of their enemies. It would also give the LEOs something to catch crims with as it is illegal to own body armor that is not obtained through legal traders. 

 

[FarmerJesus]

+1 ive killed way too many cops and gained nothing, it suck.

[BubblezDaFish]

My opinion is split on this one. Whilst I believe it could improve crim RP I also believe there could be plenty of abuse from PD, SD, and DOC members.

LEOs may decide to begin selling weapons or keeping them to mess around off-duty. Not only is this hard to catch but it can also be repeated as many times as the player wants, as long as they are near a locker room. Perhaps if the devs are able to make a work around where weapons can only be looted from a dead LEO this could work, but with the way loadouts currently work I’d have to disagree.

[Iriael]

2 hours ago, BubblezDaFish said:

Perhaps if the devs are able to make a work around where weapons can only be looted from a dead LEO this could work, but with the way loadouts currently work I’d have to disagree.

I'd agree with this, mostly just because I don't want to see hostage situations turn into "GIVE ME YOUR GUNS".  I think taking from the dead would work, especially with the enhanced IC risk/reward Melody suggested.

[DrBeelz]

+1 As a person with both a crim and cop character I think this would be a good idea, I get that concerns arise with cops would be able to be robbed and that they might get hunted but rules are already implement that would stop that so I'm not worried about that as stated the current rules do specify that LEO'S or people cant be robbed in public places even if taken to an alleyway as Melody Frey said the risk would not be worth it

Another thing I agree on is that there could even be extreme IC punishments for people in possession of LEO firearms/body armour and I support this as it would make people cautious with the risk of carrying a technically free AR or shotgun and will make a risk to reward in using the firepower to get a upper hand in the consequence of being caught and going in for serious time. it would make people think more about their actions.

my one question is would having body armour and AR's robbable from LEO's take away from imported items and decrease the feature just a thought.

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by DrBeelz

[IAmTurtle]

-1. After being on this server long enough I do not think it is a good fit. They amount cops already get shootup/hunted is already a lot. I feel like / know it will happen to where every traffic stop will just be “hands hands give me your weapons” which will just flood the market with guns even more than it already is. 
 

i think the intention was good but I do not believe it will work on ecrp or any other big server sadly. 

[Celestial]

Lets be visionary. Here's mine, I see too many dogs swarming the streets and hunting cops or baiting them to get their shit.

We all know that it is not going to go well on Eclipse because of the players mentality and hopelessness.

I don't hate the idea at all, or even if it would just work on wounded cops, but it just won't work out. People will create stupid reasons and bait cops if they have the numbers to get what they want. It's not going to work because the players with a brain on Eclipse already know the shit that happens from time to time. 

[DrBeelz]

13 hours ago, IAmTurtle said:

I feel like / know it will happen to where every traffic stop will just be “hands hands give me your weapons” which will just flood the market with guns even more than it already is. 

Would you change your mind on this change if the rules specify you cannot rob LEO's in public or on traffic stops as if they evade to then lure them into a not so public area then backup would already be called if not already and then most likely the crims would be outnumbered, would that change your mind on the topic?

[AnakinB]

+1 obviously there should be rules in place to prevent people from hunting down police/baiting police into shootouts to steal there guns, however if a situation occurs where a shootout does breakout such as PD attempting to raid a lab, and or someone is felony evading and tires are taken and then a shootout occurs from that players should for sure be able to loot the guns off the dead police officers doesnt make sense as is that when an officer dies his guns go into the void and he can go respawn new ones free of charge, should also make them pay for new weapons but thats a different post.

[IAmTurtle]

8 hours ago, DrBeelz said:

Would you change your mind on this change if the rules specify you cannot rob LEO's in public or on traffic stops as if they evade to then lure them into a not so public area then backup would already be called if not already and then most likely the crims would be outnumbered, would that change your mind on the topic?

People already don’t follow the rules. Just look at the player report sections. It just will turn into my hostility between cops and crim. I wish this was not the case but it could possibly be added but as I stated before it why it should never be.

[IAmTurtle]

also @FatherOsborn in the last major one of these made

”

Hello, I will go ahead and archive this. I previously posted on this thread a while back explaining why this will not be implemented. We do not find it realistic to make officers a target for robberies, which will happen - and while a rule can be created to try and tacklethis, it will create unnecessary time drain for staff members who have to investigate the validity of such an event when they would (should) be extremely rare. But we know how much everyone loves their guns on the server, and a cop with access to heavy weapons = free and easy access to heavy weapons.

It's not common, in fact, I can't cite any sources of officers being targeted for robberies in real life - cops being murdered and ambushed happens obviously, but once that happens, the perpetrator(s) usually leave the area. 

thank you for the suggestion!

- osborn.”

Edited July 1, 2022 by IAmTurtle
Put ballin instead of Osborn

[AnakinB]

2 hours ago, IAmTurtle said:

free and easy access to heavy weapons.

not free nor easy, a couple criminals with .50s and no armor lose to 3 cops with 200 ap armor and heavies 9/10 times, we're risking our guns, plus 5-6 hours of our time to DOC. 

 

2 hours ago, IAmTurtle said:

We do not find it realistic to make officers a target for robberies, which will happen

make a rule where u cant rob a cop in broad daylight in the middle of legion square for its weapon, easy solution. 

however, if im taking a cop hostage I should be able to strip said officer of his weapons, if I am in a lab and someone calls the cops and we win the fight for the lab, we should be able to loot their guns, they shouldnt just vanish into oblivion. 

[equ1nox_]

Making it so that LEO's guns can only be looted when they are injured/dead makes it much harder to get access too and also prevents the "rob him and dip" situation as not only do u have to injure the LEO, but also need to do the action timer to loot them and get out safely. This makes it very high risk and high reward, but its only viable in situations where DM rights are acquired and there is valid escalation which would mean this doesnt happen very often.

[AnakinB]

4 hours ago, SmushyTaco said:

The public robbery rules (risk vs reward) would already make cops being robbed in broad daylight against the rules. The rules don't need to change for it not to be allowed.

good point

[GR_Seb]

  

On 6/30/2022 at 7:08 AM, Melody Frey said:

(Also, this isn't something I'd like to see for DOC as having a group of inmates with shotguns inside of DOC without prison break rights would be absolutely Hell)

You exclude DOC because you're aware of how the community behaves. While there are still people robbing and murdering others in front of burger-shot or Vespucci Police Department  or in front of 6 Weazel News Employees at Weazel HQ although it's not NCZ I don't believe it's a good idea. If those instances were extremely rare in this community you'd have my vote. When people still change frequency or run when weapons are pointed at them, that's a no from me.
The majority of the community promotes team deathmatch instead of actual roleplay. If Eclipse had an age rule to attract more mature users instead of the recent reports i've seen where 11 year old children go around knifing others with Adults near them assisting through VDM, I don't have faith in such powerful weapons being handed around so easily. Remember that Police can't shoot without being shot at, that's a major disadvantage. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Papadakis

[blade]

+1. 

On 6/30/2022 at 5:08 AM, Melody Frey said:

(Also, this isn't something I'd like to see for DOC as having a group of inmates with shotguns inside of DOC without prison break rights would be absolutely Hell)

this should be implemented for DOC if implemented server wide. It would ensure DOC is more careful with what guns they are carrying into the cellblock, if any. IMO its unrealistic for these DOC guards to constantly have SMG's and Shotguns, as realistically they would just be taken by prisoners IRL; hence why IRL guards do not carry weaponry with them unless needed.

[Aldarine]

I fully stand by the comment made by Osborn in a prior posting about basically this same kind of suggestion - this is simply not something that will benefit the server nor is it a good idea to try to push something like it in. To go with that, I simply want to point out....

OP, in your post you stated:

I don't want cops being hunted, I just want things to make more sense. If I steal a cruiser in real life (which obviously would be a terrible idea), there would very plainly be the weapons whatever officer left them there. If I killed an officer in real life (an even worse idea), then there would be his weapons and things I would have access to.

What I can immediately say is that you write very clearly in ( ) certain things that are very bad ideas realistically speaking and yet happen in the server on a daily basis. I'm sorry but until people in the server actually view the comments in ( ) as clear and rational thought to bring into game and behave that way, this suggestion is just as moot as that mentality shift. I understand wanting things to 'make more sense' but that's a two way street and everybody in this thread knows, if they take a step back, that we are in no way going to see improvement with something like this and instead will see more of the behavior we are trying to curb away from. Nobody thinks, if I take this cruiser that's a horrible idea and my life will be ruined if I'm caught! Instead they think, hey lets go joyriding! Nobody thinks, maybe I shouldn't shoot at this cop and possibly be wanted and spend the rest of my life in prison marked as a cop killer. Instead they think to ask everybody on freq to set up an ambush over evading with a .50.

A mentality shift on BOTH sides is needed for something like this to be entertained as something productive and after years of working on it, it still hasn't gotten there. Nobody fears consequence on either side and this is something that would require a much heavier commitment to roleplay standards all around.

[gamingjunkie1991]

On 7/2/2022 at 5:45 AM, Papadakis said:

  

If Eclipse had an age rule to attract more mature users instead of the recent reports i've seen where 11 year old children go around knifing others with Adults near them assisting through VDM, I don't have faith in such powerful weapons being handed around so easily. Remember that Police can't shoot without being shot at, that's a major disadvantage. 

Im pretty sure that during the application there is actually an age limit on how old you have to be to join the server but unfortunately if you put in a fake date of birth then you can bypass it and there is nothing that the owner/admins can do about it.

[gamingjunkie1991]

17 hours ago, Aldarine said:

I fully stand by the comment made by Osborn in a prior posting about basically this same kind of suggestion - this is simply not something that will benefit the server nor is it a good idea to try to push something like it in. To go with that, I simply want to point out....

OP, in your post you stated:

I don't want cops being hunted, I just want things to make more sense. If I steal a cruiser in real life (which obviously would be a terrible idea), there would very plainly be the weapons whatever officer left them there. If I killed an officer in real life (an even worse idea), then there would be his weapons and things I would have access to.

What I can immediately say is that you write very clearly in ( ) certain things that are very bad ideas realistically speaking and yet happen in the server on a daily basis. I'm sorry but until people in the server actually view the comments in ( ) as clear and rational thought to bring into game and behave that way, this suggestion is just as moot as that mentality shift.

I'm sorry but I highly disagree with this argument just because something is a bad or very bad idea it dosent mean that its not going to actually happen. I'm going to cover this with some examples starting with stealing a police cruiser. So to start off with OP did say this would be a bad idea and yes it would be but this wouldn't mean that someone that is RPing a member of a street gang (not a motorcycle club or a traid/mafia) would not try to steal an unlocked cruiser to take out for a joyride and then ditch it somewhere. Now onto a cop being killed, OP states in brackets that this would be a very bad idea and yes it would be a very bad idea but anyone who is in a criminal faction (Street gang, Motorcycle club, mafia/triad) would be considered an enemy of the police and if the police IRL was to step on a gangs turf to try and make an arrest or interfere with a gangs operation in anyway they would be shot at and potentially killed during the shoot out ordeal. So my argument is that the mentality of criminal factions is in the correct place if they actually behave like their RL counter parts would behave.

[Frezas]

Hello, I am going to share my opinion/experience here.

I have been playing PD/SD character for 2 years now, and I can tell one thing. If implemented people are going to go after us, we have multiple situations every day when people just try to kill us. If you knew how many times a new player when arriving at the scene tries to stab officers you would be surprised, and image that player now gets a gun from us because stabbing most of the time kills you instantly. You will get a rogue new player with shotgun and pistol in his hands. And this is not against new players, this week so far I had two incidents with known players trying to kill me for nothing that would make RP sense. To share another experience this week, we had a person who baited us all the time (literally baited) and tried to go immediately up the mountain and towards the drug location (most likely an ambush), player tried this whole day, I think initiated 7 pursuits of this kind. So, I can imagine what would he do if he knew that he can get a gun from us.... Plus, LEO would not go out of the station during morning hours when we get most of the shootouts due to gangs being active, and we get into fights 15v2. 

I know I shared a lot here, but it's just to understand our point of view. 

 

Respectfully, 

[Monroe_SB]

+1 

Why not? Everyone drops their items and weapons, why always make law enforcements special? Addin this extra feature will improve ic/ooc RP of some PD members. Something like actually show fear when interacting with gangbangers.

[Salvador Rivera]

I been part of this community for 3 years and there is no reason to fight with cops , you don;t win anything only lose your money and time and fun of the game .

PD/SD dont lose anything and they have no fear for they gear or time what they are spending by doing that job . 

Roleplay shootouts with PD/SD is waste of time . 

Also SWAT's and other groups who is part of these factions 

[Actualbears]

You avoid mentioning DOC because you know just how bad it gets in there and proves how much the playerbase is willing to abuse an entire rope if you give them an inch. 

And besides, it is against the rules to be doing open public robberies like that. 

[HobGoblin]

I wouldn't mind people being able to take weapons etc by robbing bead police officers / robbing them. The non rp rule would already cover robberies for no reason other than getting a weapon.

The counter to this would be a heavy fine and jail time if caught with government issued weapons / equipment. This could also result in the suspect getting raided if its found more than the item recovered was stolen. This makes the stolen equipment a very high risk but also would be a high reward for the criminals.