Gloves are bugged. PD/SD should return to using RP for fingerprints.

[Jay Endo]

First I'll be referring to this report - 

 

Gloves do not work as intended and are bugged, LEO's should return to using RP to gather fingerprints. The LEO's included in this bug report were under the impression this is a feature, not a bug. If this is the case it should be cleared up or discussed, but I consider this as bug abuse really.

Would love to hear anyone else's opinion on it. Thanks.

[Harley]

100% agree. PD using the script that fingerprints are on guns because gloves are bugged should be considered bug abuse. PD/SD faction rules should change to accomodate this. Revert back to using /ldo until this bug is fixed

[Asbo]

+1

[TheCactus]

I can agree gloves work when they want. They can either hinder an entire investigation or make it so a suspect gets charged even if they've planned everything perfectly. 

[Jayyy]

It's obviously not intended bug abuse and they are doing as they are told but, agreed it needs to change whilst they are fixed.

[Victor Einhart]

16 hours ago, Harley said:

/ldo until this bug is fixed

How do you propose officers do this if they don't have player IDs to reference in order to use the command?

Edited November 28, 2021 by Victor Einhart

[Harley]

10 minutes ago, Victor Einhart said:

How do you propose officers do this if they don't have player IDs to reference in order to use the command?

The same way they did it before the script support?

[Bala]

I'd rather see the issues with the fingerprints fixed than the thing yeeted to be honest, but I'll bring it up with the others in LSPD and see what we can do in the meantime, if anything.

It isn't ideal the way it is currently.

Also @Harley whats with the transition signature, makes my eyes hurt lmao

Edited November 29, 2021 by Bala

[Harley]

I think we would all prefer to see the bug fixed, but it would be nice for PD to atleast revert to the old way until it is fixed in the meantime. I think the entire community would appreciate it a lot, thank you @Bala.

 

In regards to the signature, what's with the tiny text signature, makes my eyes hurt lmao

[Jay Endo]

1 hour ago, Bala said:

I'd rather see the issues with the fingerprints fixed than the thing yeeted to be honest, but I'll bring it up with the others in LSPD and see what we can do in the meantime, if anything.

It isn't ideal the way it is currently.

Also @Harley whats with the transition signature, makes my eyes hurt lmao

Of course this is anecdotal, but it does seem quite a few members of PD were aware of this. I've been told of reoccurring apartment raids with evidence being contaminated from gloved swat members.

I think now that this has finally been brought to attention, there would be a argument for bug abuse if an RP alternative (as LEO's did in the past) was not carried out when requested, in my opinion.

[Bala]

I've raised the matter with the relevant people but I'm no staff member, if they think it's a problem then they'll deal with it.

[alexalex303]

The fact that gloves never expired or had 0% risk of ever getting you caught was not ideal. Gloves are supposed to be one-time use, how many times have you seen criminals wear the same gloves across multiple crimes? 

I've brought up the idea of glove prints, and while people that get their criminal RP from TV laughed, it is a legitimate vector of approach when dealing with gloved individuals and that alongside other forensic evidence is why you would never want to hold onto your gloves after you left the crime scene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glove_prints

I do not think it can be definitively called a bug just because it gives people a chance to not avoid all forensic roleplay with one item that they can wear forever.

Edited November 29, 2021 by alexalex303

[Jay Endo]

51 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

The fact that gloves never expired or had 0% risk of ever getting you caught was not ideal. Gloves are supposed to be one-time use, how many times have you seen criminals wear the same gloves across multiple crimes? 

I've brought up the idea of glove prints, and while people that get their criminal RP from TV laughed, it is a legitimate vector of approach when dealing with gloved individuals and that alongside other forensic evidence is why you would never want to hold onto your gloves after you left the crime scene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glove_prints

I do not think it can be definitively called a bug just because it gives people a chance to not avoid all forensic roleplay with one item that they can wear forever.

Hi Alex, though I respect your suggestion and I'd be all for degradation of gloves I don't think this is relevant to the discussion at hand.

There is no indication to the player of this occurrence, I think most criminals were under the impression that gloves would protect them from leaving fingerprints at a scene. It's quite disappointing that this bug has been causing issues for SWAT's investigations, but has failed to be reported.

If we want to go this direction (which I'd really believe creating a suggestion thread would benefit from) I don't think criminal investigations realistically always get perfect fingerprints from evidence, along with the fact the script doesn't take into account the degradation and potential cross contamination of the evidence. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233901042_Determination_of_latent_fingerprint_degradation_patterns_-_A_real_fieldwork_study)

Please stay on topic, this is most certainly a bug and not a feature. This thread is an attempt at a call to action until this can be amended.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Jay Endo

[Harley]

50 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

The fact that gloves never expired or had 0% risk of ever getting you caught was not ideal. Gloves are supposed to be one-time use, how many times have you seen criminals wear the same gloves across multiple crimes? 

I've brought up the idea of glove prints, and while people that get their criminal RP from TV laughed, it is a legitimate vector of approach when dealing with gloved individuals and that alongside other forensic evidence is why you would never want to hold onto your gloves after you left the crime scene.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glove_prints

I do not think it can be definitively called a bug just because it gives people a chance to not avoid all forensic roleplay with one item that they can wear forever.

I really don't think it should be left up to RNG to determine if somebody's criminal roleplay is good enough, which is pretty much what you're suggesting.

Currently with this bug in place, somebody can do literally everything about their Criminal Roleplay perfectly. They can buy new gloves, leave no hair outside of a hat or mask, do everything their character can possibly do to leave zero forensic evidence, and this bug will cause them to leave fingerprints on a scene still. Do you think this sounds fair? Try to think about it coming from the perspective of people who spend hours planning their criminal roleplay around how not to get caught, and how to play smart, not dumb.

I understand that detectives would appreciate more forensic roleplay opportunities. However this should not be given at the expense of the quality of roleplay of others.

I think if you're a fan of your own suggestion, you should create a suggestion for glove prints, or even degradation of gloves, in a separate thread. Because this is clearly a bug that should be appreciated as a bug, and not abused by those who want more forensic roleplay.  

[alexalex303]

8 minutes ago, Harley said:

I really don't think it should be left up to RNG to determine if somebody's criminal roleplay is good enough, which is pretty much what you're suggesting.

Currently with this bug in place, somebody can do literally everything about their Criminal Roleplay perfectly. They can buy new gloves, leave no hair outside of a hat or mask, do everything their character can possibly do to leave zero forensic evidence, and this bug will cause them to leave fingerprints on a scene still. Do you think this sounds fair? Try to think about it coming from the perspective of people who spend hours planning their criminal roleplay around how not to get caught, and how to play smart, not dumb.

I understand that detectives would appreciate more forensic roleplay opportunities. However this should not be given at the expense of the quality of roleplay of others.

I think if you're a fan of your own suggestion, you should create a suggestion for glove prints, or even degradation of gloves, in a separate thread. Because this is clearly a bug that should be appreciated as a bug, and not abused by those who want more forensic roleplay.  

Why not? We use RNG for a lot of other elements in the server. Fishing is RNG, and using your logic it's wrong to use RNG to determine if somebody's fishing roleplay is good enough.

I think that with this feature in place, it eliminates invulnerability which is not healthy for the overall server. If any player can just equip a mask and a glove and be virtually immune to arrest if not caught in the act, then it will encourage further unnecessary risk taking. Carrying and especially using a gun is a choice, it's kind of a given in a system where a single gloves can protect you from ever being tied to it for life, but it's not healthy.

In fact, I will argue that the system prior to the script was much better. It incentivized people to roleplay gloves, remember to do new gloves regularly (every 48 hours) and if they slipped, it had an effect on their character. The current system is just drag an item over your hands are you a good, for life. It is you in fact who is arguing against criminal roleplay and in favor of UI dragging.

I think if you're a fan of sending people away from threads, you should consult the first post in the thread, which invited a discussion on the topic of whether or not this is a bug, especially before you paint people as abusers.

Edited November 29, 2021 by alexalex303

[Harley]

10 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

Why not? We use RNG for a lot of other elements in the server. Fishing is RNG, and using your logic it's wrong to use RNG to determine if somebody's fishing roleplay is good enough.

I think that with this feature in place, it eliminates invulnerability which is not healthy for the overall server. If any player can just equip a mask and a glove and be virtually immune to arrest if not caught in the act, then it will encourage further unnecessary risk taking. Carrying and especially using a gun is a choice, it's kind of a given in a system where a single gloves can protect you from ever being tied to it for life, but it's not healthy.

In fact, I will argue that the system prior to the script was much better. It incentivized people to roleplay gloves, remember to do new gloves regularly (every 48 hours) and if they slipped, it had an effect on their character. The current system is just drag an item over your hands are you a good, for life. It is you in fact who is arguing against criminal roleplay and in favor of UI dragging.

I think if you're a fan of sending people away from threads, you should consult the first post in the thread, which invited a discussion on the topic of whether or not this is a bug, especially before you paint people as abusers.

I personally disagree with your opinion that RNG should determine how someone's Criminal roleplay was. I also disagree with your comparison of Crim Roleplay and fishing. Fishing is pretty RNG based IRL. You put your line in the water, and you wait for another animal that is out of your control to bite the bait. Sure it takes skill to throw the pole, and strength to bring the fish in, but in it's simplest terms, fishing is RNG based. Being careful to not incriminate yourself with forensic evidence is not.
In an ideal world, fishing could be improved with minigames or something of the sort to include skill into fishing, but I know how hard that can be on a small Dev team with a lot more important expectations on their shoulders.

I think the OP was more asking for clarification if it's a bug or not from really the only people who will know for sure, and that's the Devs. I think the discussion invitation is more for a discussion of what PD could do to accomodate this bug in the mean time, e.g. going back to the old /ldo system.

 

My opinion on the best way for PD to do this is the following:

Step 1: Use the script support to look for prints.

IF NO PRINTS FOUND - GLOVES WERE WORN

IF PRINTS FOUND:

Step 2: /ldo the name that you have been given from the script support, asking if the prints would be found

Step 3: Get proof of gloves from said person, either proof of RP or proof of script gloves before the incident.

This way, even if nobody has POV including the ID of the suspect, an ID/Fname_Lname can be found and used for the /ldo, giving PD every resource they need to do the old system.

 

How do you suggest PD accomodate this bug until it's fixed?

[Aldarine]

Thank you for bringing this up @Jay Endo

Following this I will speak with fellow staff in regards to gloves as they are a fairly significant item that impacts a considerable number of players. What I will be looking to obtain clarification on is it this is intended or a bug. Should this be intended I will subsequently inform on this thread at a minimum.

At this present time this has not been announced as a feature and due to this, @alexalex303 should you have a suggestion for legitimate, scripted and announced glove changes, please refer them to the suggestions thread so that it may get the proper attention for potential implementation in the future.

[Aldarine]

After discussion and also viewable in the bug report linked above - this is neither a bug or an intended feature but instead most likely user error. Should anybody encounter a bug in the future with gloves, please reference the above bug report and comment on it with evidence and steps to replicate so it can be looked over and addressed!

[Homast]

On 11/29/2021 at 11:38 AM, Jay Endo said:

Of course this is anecdotal, but it does seem quite a few members of PD were aware of this. I've been told of reoccurring apartment raids with evidence being contaminated from gloved swat members.

 

18 hours ago, Aldarine said:

this is neither a bug or an intended feature but instead most likely user error

For the PD Part, It is a bug involving the Faction Loadout menus.

If you already have gloves on, and then put a Faction Uniform on, It will act as though there are no gloves.
Similarly, If you're not wearing gloves, and you put a Faction Uniform that has gloves on, (Specifically the Uniforms selected from Outfits) without then going into the gloves section and removing the gloves without manually putting them on, Then yes, it will still act as though you're not wearing gloves.

It behaves the same way for Faction Uniform Equipped Armor.

[Aldarine]

@Homast - This is in reference to regular gloves not the law enforcement faction loadout. That was noted within the above linked bug report following more testing and attempt at bug replication. What is being determined as human error is the everyday player simply wearing normal gloves sold at stores and leaving behind prints.

[dominykas]

+1

 

[jason]

As this discussion has long since been concluded, it will now be locked & archived.

Thank you to all of those who participated and provided feedback within this discussion.