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IAmTurtle

The Hostage Paradox

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The past couple of months both crims and cops alike have been complaining about hostage situations. Both for differing reasons. But we are stuck in the loop caused by both groups which is:

 

Crim has hostage -> Cop attempts to negotiate -> Crim denies terms but cant kill the hostage -> Cop refuses passage ->  Crim has hostage

 

There is no change to the loop. Crims think they are invincible with the hostage so demands are unrealistic and there is complaining in /b. PD tries to rush it due to how long it is. They get complained to in /b.  If a cop tries to force something crims complain its nonrp by not valuing the hostages life. If the crim tries something they get shot and go to DOC. There is really no win for either side but wasted times.

 

Rules for hostages need to change. My proposed ones are here:

  • 1 hostage per week if leo is involved
  • Hostage takers and negotiators must both value the life / scarcity of the hostage. (This is so there is an attempt to break the cycle of this loop)
  • Hostage takers must have dm rights on the hostage

 

Please respond with your ideas on how to make these changes better and break this cycle. Do not complain about what one group does but instead give solutions on how to make it better. Please don't just put +/- 1. Expand on how to make it better. 

Edited by IAmTurtle
Made it sound better.
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The main problem is that the only realistic outcomes that are possible are:

 

1. The cops give free passage, IF the hostage takers all leave at once. Ending the threat on the hostage.

 

2. The cops rush in and kill the hostage takers because the hostage takers don't understand the concept of how preserving the life of a hostage works in their favor.

 

In no realistic scenario would a law enforcement officer, public official, military personnel, allow half of the hostage takers to leave yet to allow the rest of the hostage takers maintain an active threat on the hostage. The same way as no logically thinking criminal would want to remain in the bank while their friends escape. 

The main goal of both sides is to successfully prevent ANY loss of life. The hostage takers would never actually risk shooting the hostage as that allows the cops to just run in and arrest them or worse, kill them. The police will never allow anyone to stay behind with the hostage as they have no way of confirming the safety OF the hostage because the suspect is crazy enough to stay behind. 

 

A hostage will NEVER secure you a free escape. What a hostage CAN do is provide you leverage and put you at an advantage to escape the bank without instantly being shot. Your best chances are giving up the hostage in exchange for free passage away from the bank and then planning a pursuit escape path. Bank robberies should be planned with steps in advance. Like XQC on his streams, having boats ready, other cars in stashed locations, etc. The problem is that people just want to go in, get free cash and leave. They don't actually want to plan a real escape. Its lazy and just provides nothing but a smash and grab or a hostage situation that turns into a bloodbath.

 

Edited by ClankH
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Note. The rules that are there are what are already there except for Hostage takers and negotiators must both value the life / scarcity of the hostage. (This is so there is an attempt to break the cycle of this loop)

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  • Hostage takers must have dm rights on the hostage

I would change this into "Hostage takers must have dm rights on the hostage".

I`ll give 2 arguments:
1. Please take in consideration that taking a hostage it`s a last resort , so it can`t be delayed. Except the scenario where LEO is involved and let`s say that you have DM rights, maybe someone is robbing a bank and wants to take a hostage. If you gonna ask everyone OOCly if they agree to be taken hostage and to have DM rights on them , the answer will be no and it will take ages until you can get a hostage.
2. People must stay IC all the time, so they need to take in consideration also this type of scenario. When they will log in , instead of fishing and listening music or watching a movie for 2 hours they might get involved into a kidnap situation.

Also my opinion about the loop:

Crim has hostage -> Cop attempts to negotiate -> Crim denies terms but cant kill the hostage -> Cop refuses passage ->  Crim has hostage

I think the loop would break and it will be fair-play if the cops won`t refuse anymore the passage. Once the Crim is on a bike or in a car a pursuit will begin. Taking in consideration that this is not a "5 only" server, all the cops will be involved, so it will be very hard for the Crim to escape. Almost impossible. In the end the cops will win the scenario and I don`t think any Crim will be upset if they will get caught after a chase. At least they had a little tinny chance to escape. 

Edited by Prozacel
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This looks pretty good to me so far, but I was wondering about some additions in terms of groups using one of their own mates or offering a new player x amount of money for playing the hostage (Who is at risk of getting a non-rp for putting themselves in danger like that by either report or an admin checking in on the situation)

I would also like that if there is a legit hostage situation with DM writes. The hostage takers should provide POV of how they obtained said hostage.

Edited by Actualbears
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2 hours ago, IAmTurtle said:
  • Hostage takers and negotiators must both value the life / scarcity of the hostage. (This is so there is an attempt to break the cycle of this loop)

I don't think it is necessary to break this loop. As hostage taker, Why would I kill hostage which is my only chance to get out of the situation, doesn't make sense unless I have 3-4 hostage which is almost impossible to get. 

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11 minutes ago, Devil Neeraj said:

I don't think it is necessary to break this loop. As hostage taker, Why would I kill hostage which is my only chance to get out of the situation, doesn't make sense unless I have 3-4 hostage which is almost impossible to get. 

You will kill your hostage if Police begins shooting at you

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I have done many banks before as some officers may know me from goblins the bank from the city and one at taco when I was in lnf which was an amazing hostage which clank did very well on with the negotiation. Now I don’t agree with the dm rights thing it’s better to ask someone ooc before taking them hostage in my opinion. Also about the only one hostage a week it would be better if u had more than u could negotiate more. Again just my opinion. And time is not being wasted it’s supposed to be fun not wanting to rush the rp. Now I do agree with clank what he is saying about not letting half the hostage takers to leave the bank. I do agree it seems abit unrealistic. But if u have more hostages than alot more can be done.

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I would argue for DM rights on the hostage, a change to hostage rules that would allow you to take hostages if it is for a planned activity and a faction wide limit on hostage situation per X (could be a week, could be 3 days).

To argue each point:

  • At the end of the day, we all know its a game and we all know the rules. This leads to intentionally or not, ruleplaying which is seen from both sides. Cops know you can't just kill a hostage, due to lack of DM OR it being your friend. Crims abuse the "we have a hostage, you can't do anything" mentality. If you had DM rights on the hostage, regardless of DM rules, everyone would act accordingly that the hostage might die.
  • Allowing for people to take hostages more freely, would create a much more diverse hostage situation. Right now its always 1 hostage, meaning there really is no negotiations and tbf the only thing 1 hostage should get you is reduced charges negotiated through good faith. Allowing people to take people at random, would allow for hostage situations to have more dynamic to it. You could actually negotiate by releasing some hostages, while still keeping others. It would allow for RP to progress beyond a single individual.
  • A change to the hostage situation rules involving PD, making it faction wide. To balance out the ability to take and kill hostages freely, a faction wide restriction would be put in place to stop 1 faction from taking hostages multiple times for bank robberies and turning every bank into a 2h stalemate. This would force factions to plan, limit factions from doing banks on a timer and would likely lead to fewer, but higher quality bank jobs. You can still rob banks as much as you want, but with planning and multiple hostages you would likely have a better chance of running away with the money and free.
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I thought these were basically the rules surrounding hostage situations already to be honest. +1 on creating some rule surrounding DM rights for Hostage takers (unless it’s a fake hostage)... Would definitely add more value to the hostage’s life.

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It's really hard to get DM rights on an hostage and to be honest it doesn't make sense. You take an hostage so you can rob the bank, and you don't take an hostage so you can kill him later. Basically, it's just business, and mostly it's not personal but it can be. Therefore, as I see it, it doesn't need to require having DM rights on him. And in fact, usually when you have DM rights on someone he knows you, and you don't want the hostage to know your identity so he won't snitch to the PD about you. 

To sum it up, you don't take an hostage with an intention to kill him, you take him so you can rob the bank. As I see it, having DM rights on hostage is nice, but shouldn't be must. As you don't want to hurt the hostage you just want to complete the bank.

 

Edited by Chester213
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I'd like to see the DM rights for hostage takers be addressed. 

I feel miss-managed hostage situations by LEO's can be handled IC'ly if the hostage dies.

The flip side to that is making it clear and sure that all avenues of negotiation are followed before any hostage dies from the holder perspective. 

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Hello, I like the fact that turtle came up with this, I will adress some issues that I personally saw as I was on both sides in bank roberries. 

1 -  Criminals ask for too much just for 1 hostage which is not really logical. 

2 - PD should value the hostage life and not ruleplay the situation, as they know the criminals will never kill the hostages as if they did so they will end up all in jail and they will all be charged for the situation. The situation ends with them sitting a good time in DOC and left with a bad experience. 

And with past experience, PD did not value the hostage life and kept following the car and when the criminals informed them to stop following the other car or they kill the hostages PD responded with there is no one behind them even tho there was a BF with Kevlar and a carbine following them. At this point the criminal can't kill the hostage as PD will end up pushing him. 

I believe as everyone said before there should be new rules for taking hostages and PD should really value the hostage life and stay away from ruleplaying just to win the situation. 

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1 hour ago, Chester213 said:

It's really hard to get DM rights on an hostage and to be honest it doesn't make sense. You take an hostage so you can rob the bank, and you don't take an hostage so you can kill him later. Basically, it's just business, and mostly it's not personal but it can be. Therefore, as I see it, it doesn't need to require having DM rights on him. And in fact, usually when you have DM rights on someone he knows you, and you don't want the hostage to know your identity so he won't snitch to the PD about you. 

To sum it up, you don't take an hostage with an intention to kill him, you take him so you can rob the bank. As I see it, having DM rights on hostage is nice, but shouldn't be must. As you don't want to hurt the hostage you just want to complete the bank.

 

- had a point here about ransom situations, but i’ll need to think about it more!

Edited by Lola
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While I can appreciate people wanting to take a realistic approach on this, hostage situations and in fact, bank robberies are not done in a realistic fashion on Eclipse. Bank Robberies are more casually done than player robberies, especially after the tweaks to the new rules.

I don't want to see another rule added to the server that depends on all these different variables and can be interpreted in a bunch of different ways. It needs to be straight-forward and easy to follow, which in turn makes it easier to enforce.

Hostage Roleplay is time consuming and requires both patience and a high quality of roleplay from the victim, the hostage taker/s and the law enforcement showing up to protect them. There needs to be a value of human life but also at the same time, the realisation it is not a 'get away free' card for criminals, it's just delaying the inevitable. I remember a point in time on this server where Prison Breaks were almost a daily occurrence and it got ridiculous. I like unique role-play and if we have to spend 30.. 45.. 60 minutes at a hostage situation to resolve it then fair enough. If there is good roleplay to be had, then great and there have been some situations where it's gone well but honestly, it's getting long now and stupid.

Specifically when it comes to bank robberies, I think we need to go the prior approval route. By that I mean, if you want to rob a bank and take a hostage, then you'll need approval from a certain level of staff member (say senior mod+) to do that role-play. Deathmatch rights is an area that's up for debate and interpretation so honestly, I'd leave the DM rights part out. We already have so many bubbles around players where nothing bad can happen to them spontaneously, I don't think bank robberies should be one of them. If you get prior approval and you catch someone slipping at a bank, you should be able to take them hostage. To prevent any concern about any staff members metagaming, however unlikely, the approval would be valid for three hours.

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I've never participated in a bank heist before. Mostly because the protocol just seems so forced. I'm not going to pretend like I have a method that would work better, but it always kind of irked me that there were no in-depth script(s) written to create a more spontaneous feeling to the whole thing. If said script(s) could also completely bypass ego as well, I'd certainly donate and give many thanks to the devs for it. 😆

I don't envy the cops or the crims in that situation. Being stuck in a negotiation that seems like it will never end is just tiring. Big ups to everyone who make it work, though.

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I completely agree that situations involving hostages need to be changed.  Currently, bank robberies aren't the best for either side.  I can remember only one incident where I participated in an okay hostage situation and I remember many more where the criminals either had unrealistic demands or both parties spent half of the time fighting in /b over what's realistic and what's not, pretty much planning through the RP in OOC and making the experience a lot worse.  I would enjoy seeing how the server would work if you could take multiple hostages and release them one by one for demands, like how XQC and other streamers have done in GTA RP.  I think that DM rights is really debatable for this, as long as you, the hostage, fear your life, you can RP the situation and come out with 0 losses, and the cops and criminals can both have good RP with the victim being involved in both sides.  Hopefully any staff reading this post might be interested in trying out these different approaches to hostages until a good method is found and it can be permanent in the server rules. 

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The problem is a hostage, in real life is literally a get out of jail free card. Police always comply with demands initially until all the hostages are safe. Cops consciously decide to not RP any sort of fear for the hostages life or take appropriate action around the scene. But once again any kind of report of a cop for this (NRP), is simply met with file an I/A report. We need to stop protecting cops behind this system and start holding them accountable for there actions. Pulling up outside a bank right by the doors and blocking a car in isnt RP. You should be closing the roads down staying well back. Both hostage situations I have been involved in resulted in the cops killing/shooting the hostage by mistake.... This would obviously carry very grave consequences in real life, but nothing happens here.

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On 6/24/2021 at 5:37 AM, ClankH said:

The problem is that people just want to go in, get free cash and leave. They don't actually want to plan a real escape. Its lazy and just provides nothing but a smash and grab or a hostage situation that turns into a bloodbath.

Spot on. Some groups do great roleplay and plan, and those are the ones that prove to be successful. The lazy set-ups are the ones that meet dead-ends. Here is an example of what is possible with proper planning courtesy of the Irish:

 

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16 hours ago, MrSilky said:

Spot on. Some groups do great roleplay and plan, and those are the ones that prove to be successful. The lazy set-ups are the ones that meet dead-ends. Here is an example of what is possible with proper planning courtesy of the Irish:

 

so to clarify, you think the current system is fine, just crims need to execute better plans? Perfect.

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Just to clarify tor people’s info in-case they do want to understand the extent of which we had to go through to plan the heist.. The hostage situation at the Rockford Jewellery Store was a collaborative RP opportunity planned by Dark Army and Daichead Gadai. Dark Army did their part in preparing the heist by RPing hacking into the system, preparing the thumb drive, and disabling the alarms (which would explain why the alarms don’t go off via. script, can be read via. their now archived thread) and Daichead Gadai prepared in bringing on alternative characters from the faction to RP as clerks for immersion since there was no other plausible way to do so. This has to be written and approved by SA+, where we outlined who was going to use what character so that logs can be checked, as well as approval of MG. We were planning to RP going in, robbing the store, and leaving the scene, but a member of PD spotted us the last second and called it in. We were somewhat prepared but didn’t expect it at all and the actual hostage situation that unfolded after was completely unplanned. Admittedly, we started to fire at them first thinking it was our only means of escaping but we stopped when we decided to use the hostages properly and PD stopped as well as their reactionary response. Every person there, the hostages, LEO, getaway drivers, and robbers, displayed really good RP - we RPd non-script injuries (such as a member shouting that they’ve been shot and assisting them with BLS) as well as the value of life of the hostage (threatening them, shooting them in the leg, taking their wallet, finding their family, and telling LEO that their father will die if they don’t let us go). I think everyone at that scene can agree it was a really nice change to the way PD and Criminal factions RP with one another.

Not all hostage situations have gone as well. We had a drop at Sandy and held one of the sheriffs up and shielded them with heavy set cars from getting shot. We told SD to leave the crate somewhere or their deputy gets killed, but these demands were ignored and the crates were taken and open at a NCZ. The deputy reported that he actually got shot by members of his own faction and expressed that he was disappointed of the RP that unfolded the way it did as well. It was agreed by both the Irish and LEO that both factions could have done things differently, but this was never followed up on. 

The difference between the Rockford Store and a normal Fleeca Bank is that the Fleeca Bank is scripted. When you implement a script, things become routine and there is no need to RP outside of this routine if the fastest way to fulfil the script and get the money is to either go in and out quickly, or take a hostage and leave with part of the money to sacrifice several members. I do think it’s important to empathise with the fact that, although a faction may hold a hostage two or three times, LEO have experienced the exact same RP experience over two dozen times.

Generally, I think hostage’s lives should definitely be valued over everything and there should be more emphasis in this.. Either by LEO’s response and ways they prioritise or by hostage takers in the way they connect with the hostage and RP their life as extremely value and something they do not want to take unless absolutely necessary.

Perhaps a new hostage animation would allow for this immersion as per @Bala’s thread. 

Edited by Lola
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Personally, I would like to see DM rights requestable so that hostages can be taken more easily.

The Irish jewelry heist was an awesome piece of RP but even they had to use alternate legal characters in order to carry out their scene because trying to include random people by way of kidnappings has proven to be far too time consuming or outright impossible to obtain the number of hostages needed.

 

We had an event planned some time ago where we wanted to kidnap unsuspecting players looking for a ride and bring them back to the clubhouse handcuffed and masked to then be pit against one another in a cage fight tournament while members placed bets. Afterwards we were to throw a large party with the victor while the losers were left to lick their wounds in the ER.

Now we could have simply used club members or had used alternate characters... but where's the fun in that? 

My point is that kidnapping someone can be a way to include them into your RP scenarios. There are plenty of less experienced players that would love to be apart of some of this RP in some way and we would have loved to have had them involved. But as of right now the current hostage rulings just dont make that feasible.

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