Regarding Police

[flow]

30 minutes ago, Swattpup1989 said:

I have made suggestions.

Have said it multiple times, punishments need to be harsher or handled more quickly.
Also PD and SD need to get paid better

I don't think that is a good idea. The payment provided is okay considering we do not have the same expenses as you do. We don't pay for our own fuel and weapons while on duty, therefore we spend less. You need to have the potential to earn more than us in order to compensate for this. PD and SD do not need more money. We like to attract people who join us for the roleplay and progression, not the paycheck.

[Msato]

34 minutes ago, Swattpup1989 said:

Have said it multiple times, punishments need to be harsher or handled more quickly.

Are you trying to take away from the already very minimalistic arresting roleplay? Currently its cuffed rights, mdc and sent to doc, might as well ask to /prison at this rate. 

9 hours ago, Swattpup1989 said:

PD and SD will not give out harsher punishments nor quicker punishments due to the lack of personnel on the force.

Unsure about you but I'd personally consider a joint force of 145 members between PD&SD to definitely not be a lack of personnel. More of the matter the city feels like its flooded with cops a lot more than criminals in recent months. You're meant to have jurisdictions in place yet SD patrol the city as frequently if not more than cops as of late. Official gangs have an OOC cap on members at 60 max, meanwhile the police force will continue to grow, each time introducing the commonly seen wave of power hungry officers who don't have any regard for criminal RP. Now I'm not saying that all officers are bad, but at this rate finding a good one is like finding a needle in a haystack. 

9 hours ago, Swattpup1989 said:

I know a few officers from my alt, that quit PD and SD due to the lack of pay.

Having been PD myself a while back I can assure you 95% of its members are there for the RP and not the pay, time flies by when you're on duty mensing you barely even notice the "poor pay" if you're joining a law enforcement faction for the pay alone you shouldn't be there to begin with.

9 hours ago, Swattpup1989 said:

At that point, people have stopped trusting IA. Along with the news report regarding IA being biased.

Thank you for publicly raising this. From my personal experience IA does nothing, along with the fact that 90% of people don't bother with it anymore due to it being pending for 2-3 months and closed with a canned reply. IA has turned into an IC means to protect officers of certain rule breaches such as nrp and metagaming. "how did you possibly charge me without any identification" which is then answered with "If you have an issue IA report it whole you serve your time in prison". The overall issue is the blatant play 2 win attitude that comes from members on each side of the ring. Again this is not everyone but occurs often by people in high ranked positions within the factions who can easily influence others decisions. 

[KrismeisterSG]

51 minutes ago, Swattpup1989 said:

I have made suggestions.

Have said it multiple times, punishments need to be harsher or handled more quickly.
Also PD and SD need to get paid better

When I was in PD I was earning half a million dollars almost every week with an average of 70-90hours and I was only a PO2. I don't think money is the issue, at all.

[Amaim]

deleted

Edited November 16, 2019 by Amaim

[Bala]

4 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

Are you trying to take away from the already very minimalistic arresting roleplay? Currently its cuffed rights, mdc and sent to doc, might as well ask to /prison at this rate. 

He means punishments need to be harsher for cops, I think.
I think it's a dangerous way to look at things, in my opinion. The punishment has to just fit the offence. I'm not going to suspend someone over a wrongly placed ticket for example, that would be ridiculous. On the other end of the spectrum, there have been cops that have had more chances than they deserve.

4 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

Unsure about you but I'd personally consider a joint force of 145 members between PD&SD to definitely not be a lack of personnel. More of the matter the city feels like its flooded with cops a lot more than criminals in recent months. You're meant to have jurisdictions in place yet SD patrol the city as frequently if not more than cops as of late. Official gangs have an OOC cap on members at 60 max, meanwhile the police force will continue to grow, each time introducing the commonly seen wave of power hungry officers who don't have any regard for criminal RP. Now I'm not saying that all officers are bad, but at this rate finding a good one is like finding a needle in a haystack. 

In some timezones, we have too many cops for the amount of crime we have. Like for example, like 5pm UTC is flooded with cops but not enough situations to keep them occupied. Then there are times, usually in the early hours where the swing is completely different and we don't have enough for the situations. 

That's not an easy fix, because you can't hire people just based on timezones, nor can you tell people when they can play either. Reefer as an example is from the UK but plays the US timezone, we have quite a few people that that applies to.

As for SD patrolling the city, if there is a situation where we require backup, we call SD and vice versa. There have most likely been a lot of situations recently. 

As for your comment about us continuing to grow, I don't know if you read my previous post but PD loses members on a weekly basis so our number stays pretty consistent. The problem however is that we are replacing people leaving supervisor and command positions with cadets. This as you can imagine will naturally have an effect on how PD runs itself.

4 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

Having been PD myself a while back I can assure you 95% of its members are there for the RP and not the pay, time flies by when you're on duty mensing you barely even notice the "poor pay" if you're joining a law enforcement faction for the pay alone you shouldn't be there to begin with.

I've been in the PD for 8 months, after a couple weeks I was pretty much set to the point where I probably don't need to be paid every again. I'm in the PD for the roleplay, the action and the people. Not sure anyone is joining PD for the pay to be honest because you have 4k an hour as a Cadet. You make more in almost every other legal faction.

4 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

Thank you for publicly raising this. From my personal experience IA does nothing, along with the fact that 90% of people don't bother with it anymore due to it being pending for 2-3 months and closed with a canned reply. IA has turned into an IC means to protect officers of certain rule breaches such as nrp and metagaming. "how did you possibly charge me without any identification" which is then answered with "If you have an issue IA report it whole you serve your time in prison". The overall issue is the blatant play 2 win attitude that comes from members on each side of the ring. Again this is not everyone but occurs often by people in high ranked positions within the factions who can easily influence others decisions. 

I don't know what the turn over of IA reports has been like, but like I said we have just recruited 2-3 new people to it (myself included) so I'd appreciate you giving us a little bit of time to get to grips with things and we'll see. Can't stress enough though, Internal Affairs isn't there to fire police officers.. it's there to access the evidence and make a fair and balanced decision. Whether that is correct or fair is obviously going to be a matter of opinion, but it is also our prerogative.

If a Triad fucks up in your faction IC, how would you respond if someone from outside that group was telling you how to handle them? You'd probably tell them to mind their own business tbh. In IA, we can't do that, we have to listen to both sides and be diplomatic about how we respond.

For me personally, winning is nice but it's the entertainment value that matters the most to me. I play this game for fun. What is fun to me is taking down criminals, police chases, investigating situations and the back and forth with criminals. I love all that shit.

I said it before but PD is going through a bit of a transitional phase right now in my view, so there's going to be ripples in the pond. The only thing I can do is look after myself and if I'm aware of situations that aren't right IC, I'll sort it. You can ask Al Romano, Lancaster and Vince about that when they got WONGLY placed charges and me and Dunbar got them removed.

[Drizzy.]

As previously stated by @YuSoHelpful, this  post is in the server suggestion topic area however it is is turning into a discussion on PD/SD like many we've seen before. Can we continue this somewhere else or keep it based on server suggestions on this post please.

 

Thanks alot.

[Z0thian]

Nakamura approves. 

[Tyrone Stone]

On 11/15/2019 at 7:28 PM, Swattpup1989 said:

I understand the fact of the realism on the server but cops not being required to identify a traffic stop is not realistic. I have been pulled over and before you even give them your license you can ask the reason for being stopped. And they are required to tell you. The fact this isn't a thing is beyond redic.

Being pulled over for suspected speeding when going 50 is a bit excessive. When asked why I was being pulled over, I got told a spot check and then it changed to suspected speeding.

Upon refusing to show my license due to lack of a reason for the stop, I got threatened with more charges. This is beyond unrealistic.

Thats an ic problem right?, its how the police force is runs.

[padpilot]

On 11/16/2019 at 4:07 AM, flow said:

While I don't agree with the original post this topic started with as I believe that's a very petty point, some good points have been made. What we as faction leaders, in my case SD, do is take these on board and see where we can improve the general enjoyment for police roleplay. Reading this topic though makes everything seem bad which it is not. There are issues on a wider level which need to be addressed and the cases I've read here are not things we or PD encourage or allow. I will go as far as say that most of these interactions described in this topic were interactions with lower level members of either department. This is something we work on. I can say this for SD and I am sure PD does the same but we are constantly correcting such behaviour when we see it or are told about it. I take these things seriously, going as far as driving to a known gang and asking their leader if it was true he was arrested for calling one of my deputies an asshole. Neither SD nor PD leadership gloss over these things and we are keen on correcting the issues and making sure they are not repeated. It is true that PD took a bit of a hit when SD first started as quite a few experienced and strict members left to build SD. However, PD has filled most of the positions with equally as good people. The brunt of the issues does not come from the top, they are at the bottom levels. We see this in SD with trainees and ranks DS1 to DS3. We have made periods between promotions longer in order to give more time for the lower levels to adjust and fully understand what we expect in terms of role play. For the most part, this is working. Some cases do still arise however where we see an issue. You can however trust me that we do not allow such things and do not tolerate them. We talk to deputies and we correct ill behaviour. You have to take into account the progression that happens within SD and PD. Our trainees can not go out by themselves for at least 21 days, they are always accompanied by a trainer. We do this to try and prepare them and show them what we expect. Naturally, things that shouldn't happen, still do. But that is an issue that goes across all factions on the server. It is up to us faction leaders to try and mitigate the risks of this happening however. I can't speak for IA as I never had any interactions with IA myself while in PD, but in SD we do usually solve a case within a week, if not two in rare cases. Though I have to say, a lot of IA reports are complete bogus and they take time away from dealing with the actual issues. We have one reported been spammed to us 6 times in short succession, and each time triggering the IA process. That report was a waste of time which could have been allocated to solving actual cases. I know this is something most people do not want to hear, but PD and SD are not and will not unleash the full possibilities and consequences that would be justified in a state with such a high murder and crime rate. From an IC point of view, I have every justification I need to equip every single one of our deputies with an AR and authorize stop and search procedures on anyone wearing a known gang colour. ICly, this would be justified given the crimes, gangs and weaponry we face. But we don't do that. PD and SD, contrary to popular believe, are not looking to win every situation. We would utilize all tools and justifications if we were. You are seeing a PD and SD that are constraining themselves in action and reaction to the crime we face in order to give an enjoyable time in the server. We need criminials and you need the cops, it's simple.

SD and PD invest a lot of time every week in tracking what our members do, how much they work, if they log their arrests, duty reports, impounds, training sessions etc. We do what we can to ensure people are doing what they are supposed to do. Every week, supervisors are tasked with tracking everyone in the department, how much time they work, how many reports they write, what qualifications they have, if they do or do not provide training etc. This is done to monitor what is being done. This is something that takes hours of actual RL time, away from playing the game, where we sit and count reports, hours, trainings etc. etc. PD and SD are not just "log in get a gun" type of faction. Currently, it takes someone in SD a minimum of 51 days to be even eligible to apply for a shotgun, that is excluding the actual application and the potential failure of such application. We have strict rules on when heavy weapons can be deployed and who can do so. We recently suspended someone for the misuse of their weapons. You may think oh, what is a suspension going to do but you need to see the whole picture. The progression in PD and SD is something people aim for, they want to climb the ranks. A written warning and a suspension put off any and all promotions by at least 45 days from the date of the suspension. That is a severe hit in their progression and is definitely not something people take lightly within our factions.

A lot of good points have been made but I have also seen a lot of accusations and name calling that are nothing short of uproductive and harmful to the process of having an open dialogue. We are open to talk about things, anyone can message me on discord with an issue they have with a member of SD and we will talk about it. People have done that and they can confirm that I'll listen to the problem and try to resolve it. Coming on the forums only helps if it's constructive and to the point. We need to have an open dialogue because honestly, getting pulled over and being asked to identify yourself before you are being told why you are being pulled over is NRP? That's just not true. It's a petty claim. People also severely overestimate what they can or cannot do. I can't remember when I had the last traffic stop which did not involve a bunch of their gang members show up, cricle us and constantly barge in asking what's wrong. Do you realise how NRP that is? Your guy is getting a speeding ticket, you don't show up asking questions getting yourself arrested for obstruction of justice, that is NRP. We deal with a lot of issues on a daily basis that we don't come on here for accusing each and every criminal for. It is important to differentiate between what is good and what is bad. Yesterday I roleplayed a roadside inspection of a vehicle and the driver told me "I better leave because his boys are coming". Is that the kind of RP we are supposed to accept from a criminal point of view? It's not and I understand that these are isolated cases.

We need an open dialogue but it has to be constructive and I can assure you that a lot of issues either side has with each other, can be resolved if we do it reasonably and talk about things in a manner that is not aggressive.

 

if all this effort is done, and yet the general public still dont see/feel this to be the case then clearly more transparency is needed? 

[flow]

On 11/19/2019 at 10:53 AM, padpilot said:

if all this effort is done, and yet the general public still dont see/feel this to be the case then clearly more transparency is needed? 

Well, here's the thing. It is working. We are continiously seeing good developments in SD due to our efforts. We attract people who want to roleplay realistically. Every academy we hold, we see the same developments. Out of 10 trainees that attend the academy, about 5 will become Deputy Sheriffs. The training process we have is designed to discourage people who are here for quick fun and action and leans towards players who are more dedicated. We see the results, and the community does too. I won't deny there are issues arising from time to time but there are no teething issues, at least with SD. People want to complain about being made to show their ID before being given a reason for a traffic stop? Fine, but that's not an issue. That is a development of the server and the things we deal with. We are restricted as to what we can do and how we are to do it. I understand the cries for more realism but I don't think you guys understand the consequences this would bring for criminal rp. If we go more realistic than we are now, you're getting a forced CK for your murder charges, your vehicle seized and auctioned off, all cops running around with heavy weapons because that's the weaponry we are confronted with on a daily. We'll take your business and houses to pay for your debts. Do you see where this is going? Some of the issues brought up are real issues we are working on, and others are very petty. In SD, we have paid out about 500k in compensation in direct relation to IA reports and have suspended and discharged people based on those reports. The systems are working, we rely on you to report incidents to us. Not the forums, to us directly so we can deal with them. Our discharges and punishments are public, we don't hide anything. https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/viewforum.php?f=937

[padpilot]

15 hours ago, flow said:

Well, here's the thing. It is working. We are continiously seeing good developments in SD due to our efforts. We attract people who want to roleplay realistically. Every academy we hold, we see the same developments. Out of 10 trainees that attend the academy, about 5 will become Deputy Sheriffs. The training process we have is designed to discourage people who are here for quick fun and action and leans towards players who are more dedicated. We see the results, and the community does too. I won't deny there are issues arising from time to time but there are no teething issues, at least with SD. People want to complain about being made to show their ID before being given a reason for a traffic stop? Fine, but that's not an issue. That is a development of the server and the things we deal with. We are restricted as to what we can do and how we are to do it. I understand the cries for more realism but I don't think you guys understand the consequences this would bring for criminal rp. If we go more realistic than we are now, you're getting a forced CK for your murder charges, your vehicle seized and auctioned off, all cops running around with heavy weapons because that's the weaponry we are confronted with on a daily. We'll take your business and houses to pay for your debts. Do you see where this is going? Some of the issues brought up are real issues we are working on, and others are very petty. In SD, we have paid out about 500k in compensation in direct relation to IA reports and have suspended and discharged people based on those reports. The systems are working, we rely on you to report incidents to us. Not the forums, to us directly so we can deal with them. Our discharges and punishments are public, we don't hide anything. https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/viewforum.php?f=937

fair play cant argue with that. Cant think of much else you guys could do tbf. 

 

Honestly though , the punishments you say "realism" would bring imo, would be really really welcomed by a lot of players. Imagine having assets seized to pay for debt, that would be awesome  no more criminals being lazy, no more robbing randoms broad daylight on the street, no more using personal supercars for petty crime. Being a criminal is already way way way too easy, bring on the "realism" would be awesome by the sounds of it

Also - " but I don't think you guys understand the consequences this would bring for criminal rp" - trust me a lot of criminals do, and they are crying out for more realism, obviously though a lot of players are crims and the average player could just not play enough the "realism" was introduced. However, we aint all the same, we all have different wants/expectations and different skilsets for that matter. Try not to lump us all together, criminal RP is already considered trash overall, im a crim but i know my RP levels are good, so its not necceseraily a casse of "you guys". 

 

:)

Edited November 21, 2019 by padpilot

[Legendxenn]

On 11/15/2019 at 2:41 PM, Swattpup1989 said:

In Kansas, its not like that. Upon the stop they ask do you know why I stopped you today and then tell you and ask for ID

I mean its a legit question, she could have answered while I was grabbing it instead she was very rude. Immediately after it, she went off duty. Seems they want to meet a quota rather than do their jobs

Trust me all you have to do is hit on them and they will just give you a warning, XD

[Speed Racer]

On 11/15/2019 at 3:26 PM, alexalex303 said:

My view on law enforcement in the server is that it's been okay but it's rapidly degrading. I used to be a criminal main over a year ago, and most of my interactions with police officers were within the boundaries of what I'd consider realistic, and for a couple of months, I was a supervisor in the LSPD, however, since returning to criminal, two months ago, I've been noticing more and more gross abuses of power. I'm not sure if this is because I now know (OOCly) a lot more about police regulation, and when they are pushing it, or if there truly are more abusive cops, but there are quite a number of officers that have absolutely no regard for law and what is acceptable.

To give you an example, two days ago I went to the police department to inquire about a revoked gun permit. The officer that I was questioning asked for my identification, which I found reasonable. There were several other officers in the room. Another officer says, "I want to see your licenses too!", and a Detective identifies me verbally, by my full name. Then another cop says, "You have to show it or its failure to identify". I show the officer my identification, even though another law enforcement officer identified me, and she had no WORK RELATED reason to know my name. Then the officer that initially threatened me with a charge, asked to see it as well. 

This is the kind of gross abuse of power, that I feel is borderline NonRP. There was absolutely no work related reason for the 5th officer in the room to know the same name that 4 other cops knew, and verified that I was not wanted. It was quite simply a power play.

The usual response to this is file an IA report. The issue with that is that officers are not punished harshly enough, nor are the reports dealt with in a timely manner.

I will provide you with a second anecdote.

Last month I was involved in an armed robbery with two other people, and one of the victims named me as a perpretator later on. She was a female character. A cop, with no evidence what-so-ever, based on her word of mouth, searched me and my vehicle. I did not have anything illegal in my possession. Furthermore, after he established that I did not have any illegal items, and I was not wanted, he placed me in cuffs, and inside his cruiser, and quite literally kidnapped me to face my accuser, that was in a different area. My car was left unlocked on the side of the road. I protested it, and the officer said that "I'm being detained for an Investigation".

I filed an IA report, on the 10th of September. I just received an answer on 14th of November, saying that, of course, the officer broke policy, and that he was "disciplined".

Now I ask you, what do you think was the discipline? My guess is a written warning. 

What would the discipline be for me, or any other person if we kidnapped someone under no legal bases and kept them there? Prison.

The fact that the cop was not at the very least fired is exactly why people feel the way they feel about law enforcement. There is very little recourse for most abuses of power, and even when they get confirmed, it's a slap on the wrist for the cop.

This was a long rant, so I will present you with some solutions to end it:

• If an officer is found to be in breach of a serious protocol, think force matrix, false detainment, etc, he should be fired. No written warnings, no suspensions.
• If an officer is found to have falsely arrested someone, they should be fired. No written warnings, no suspensions.
• If an officer is found to be issuing orders that are not lawful, he should be suspended.

The current punishment system is not proportional to what abusive law enforcement officers can inflict upon their victims.

Hi, I don't want it to seem like I'm dragging up an old thread, just saw an interesting title on the home page for threads that had recently been posted in and gave it a read, then found this gem while doing so.

I'm really curious if Alex still feels this way.

 

In an effort to stay on topic though, I think IA overhauls in PD would be the best conclusion to this post, and that's something that needs to take place ICly. Hope others share my curiosity here.

[Lyosha]

I don't know why PD thinks that they can give criminals as much prison time as they want since it's ''IC issue''. I think that prison times should be lowered more and the fine's should be increased. Imagine having to spend 5hours of your IRL time just for police evading and having smg with few attachments.