Police use of "X-Ray" is powergaming

[cheatonus]

Police have tools necessary to do proper air surveillance. Even if "properly rp'd" the use of "x-ray" as some sort of unseen eye in the sky is powergaming. Players are given no chance to respond, evade, nor is any valid evidence presented in regards to this. In the absence of a justice system whereby evidence can be weighed and judged independently before prosecution and sentencing police shouldn't be using tools that are unseen by the players. Civs and Crims don't even have binoculars. Police have helicopters. If they want to do surveillance they should use their real tools, and if they don't have anyone available who can pilot a helicopter they should go without aerial surveillance. I mean, this is just going a bit too far and really causing some incredibly unjust and frankly ridiculous arrests. If the police don't directly see it or have direct evidence from another player they shouldn't be able to arrest people. They're literally taking time and in game money away from players who they can't prove did anything wrong. TLDR; use the copters, stop with the X-ray nonsense.

[DevilsMuse]

+9000 AGREED

[cheatonus]

I'm not even sure half the time there is an actual unit in the sky. They're just RPing they have depolyed and XRay unit. 

[Copperhorse]

If you think that there's a chance a helicopter is following you then drive up a mountain and scan the air. There's not really a way for them to be out of your view distance if you go so high up.

[cheatonus]

I was at the observatory. I saw nothing when I go arrested. I was sitting there. Ti's a pretty high spot. I honestly don't think they actually ahd a helicopter out. 

[Borrelli]

1 hour ago, cheatonus said:

TLDR; use the copters, stop with the X-ray nonsense.

Hey... so X-RAY is the PD's callsign for a Police Helicopter, so I'm not really sure what you mean by this statement. We don't have some tool, called 'X-RAY', which allows us to know where a player goes as that'd be broken as hell.

[cheatonus]

If you use a helicopter you need to make sure people can see it, then. 

[gohena]

In real life choppers police and news choppers can fly for about 2-3 hours MAX before having to be refueled, i say keep x rays units, just nerf the amount of fuel they spawn with, for example they should spawn with about 30-40% fuel. to make is realistic so they have to fly back and refuel giving people a chance to get away. Also, we are based in California where it's pretty hot therefore increasing fuel consumption even more for a helicopter, on top of the fact that police helicopter have to carry extra equipment and weight, like a spotlight and high definition camera which increase fuel consumption even more.

Edited August 19, 2019 by gohena

[Chapman]

12 minutes ago, gohena said:

In real life choppers police and news choppers can fly for about 2-3 hours MAX before having to be refueled, i say keep x rays units, just nerf the amount of fuel they spawn with, for example they should spawn with about 30-40% fuel. to make is realistic so they have to fly back and refuel giving people a chance to get away. Also, we are based in California where it's pretty hot therefore increasing fuel consumption even more for a helicopter, on top of the fact that police helicopter have to carry extra equipment and weight, like a spotlight and high definition camera which increase fuel consumption even more.

The fuel consumption while flying, you go through a lot. Speaking from experience coming from piloting both in PD and MD air units. On average I found I had to land about once an hour if not earlier depending on how ofter I had to respond to situations.

Edited August 19, 2019 by ZDeul

[alexalex303]

1 hour ago, cheatonus said:

If you use a helicopter you need to make sure people can see it, then. 

Why? Check youtube for helicopter chases. Most of them the guy won't even know there is a helicopter. He'll do stuff like change clothes and walk past cops, and then the cops get told its him. 

Spotting a helicopter, especially in the city is very hard.

[cheatonus]

Because this is RP and the world is very small. I'm not saying it isn't realistic. I'm saying it's too big of an advantage for police on the server, and in the absence of a justice system where evidence has to be presented people are getting screwed by it. And in the world of RP having things thrust upon you with no warning or opportunity to react to the situation is generally powergaming. If they're going to use helicopter footage as evidence they need to catch people in the act, have a ton of continuity, show the video. 

[MrUntouchable215]

Honestly? I wouldnt have a problem with any of this shit if you can afk in prison lol. Sitting there in a prison with zero prison guards around and a bunch of people punching the shit out of each other for 3 hours is the furthest from RP and it's the furthest from interesting. I go grab something to eat real quick, come back, I'm kicked. I log in, fall through the map and sit there dying for an extremely long time, rinse and repeat. I wouldn't mind doing a bit of RP in prison if I could go afk when I want. Paying 18-20k + a 3 hour sentence and no afk, ya'll got me fucked up lol

 

On a serious note though, X-ray's are too much sometimes. The fact that you can fly beyond the bounds of player view is somewhat annoying. I have to get out of my car and point my gun up in the air to even see it, otherwise I can't muster the camera angle to do so. @cheatonus is correct though, in a world with no court system or anything, it gets to a point where some things are just forced upon you. I've had some interesting RP experiences with PD but most of the time, it's frisk then jail.

Also are we seriously just not going to talk about the fact that there's police riding around on Hakoucho drags with SMG's on their backs? Is anyone else annoyed by this? It really feels like abuse at that point, like you're taking advantage of the fact that it's somehow totally legal to do that and that SMG is 100% glued to you, so we can't even take it. Help me understand how that shit is okay lol

[Yputi]

4 hours ago, cheatonus said:

TLDR; use the copters, stop with the X-ray nonsense.

Wait sorry, I am confused... X-ray = helicopter? It's the units callsign called X-ray.

I think the issue of not seeing it is mostly because GTA doesn't really allow you to look straight up.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Yputi

[37hh]

give me an rpg n ill shoot it down

[iRitz]

[alexalex303]

56 minutes ago, MrUntouchable215 said:

Also are we seriously just not going to talk about the fact that there's police riding around on Hakoucho drags with SMG's on their backs? Is anyone else annoyed by this? It really feels like abuse at that point, like you're taking advantage of the fact that it's somehow totally legal to do that and that SMG is 100% glued to you, so we can't even take it. Help me understand how that shit is okay lol

That will almost always be SWAT during a special operation, and almost always in response to someone evading on a Hakuchou Drag themselves. If you want to argue that the bike is unrealistic, fair enough, remove it from the server, but you can't have criminal characters abuse it every day and when a cop does it, its very NonRP.

[Riderz]

5 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

That will almost always be SWAT during a special operation, and almost always in response to someone evading on a Hakuchou Drag themselves. If you want to argue that the bike is unrealistic, fair enough, remove it from the server, but you can't have criminal characters abuse it every day and when a cop does it, its very NonRP.

I mean the cops are pretty much the national guard, carbines, 50 cals snipers, thermal optics, and my favorite an Armored pounder pretty much.

[Riderz]

41 minutes ago, iRitz said:

Sure police cruisers can't either

[iRitz]

9 minutes ago, Tezhl said:

I mean the cops are pretty much the national guard, carbines, 50 cals snipers, thermal optics, and my favorite an Armored pounder pretty much.

Well considering the amount of firepower that PD has to put up with, I would say that is normal RP now. Considering the unrealistic RP that PD has to put up with, daily might I add, I would think that Commander Bacon with a fucking railgun would make perfect RP.

 

8 minutes ago, Tezhl said:

Sure police cruisers can't either

I've tested both vehicles on many types of roads, it is easier for a drag to control on dirt, rocks, whatever road than it is with a cruiser. That is why PD needed XRAY and HSU to respond to the ridiculous unrealistic pursuits... Chasing a drag in a Crown Victoria, PD loses sight in 5-10 seconds.

Edited August 19, 2019 by iRitz

[MrUntouchable215]

21 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

That will almost always be SWAT during a special operation, and almost always in response to someone evading on a Hakuchou Drag themselves. If you want to argue that the bike is unrealistic, fair enough, remove it from the server, but you can't have criminal characters abuse it every day and when a cop does it, its very NonRP.

Criminal characters abuse it? The difference is, we can't ride around with an SMG on our backs without being chased every corner. So cops should just ride around in Elegy Retro's lol

The point is, yes, it's extremely nonRP. You have police issued equipment, there is seriously no need for PD to try to match us at every corner when you're riding around on free gas, X-rays and high speed units along with almost no cap in members. By that logic, you guys should drive elegys, massacros and every other fast car that isnt your standard police cruiser. I'm sure that makes no sense to you, so a cop driving around a drag with an SMG on his back surely shouldn't make sense either. I mean, there's even a chance you see one of our shipments coming and you get to camp there waiting for someone to pick it up.

All I'm asking is, where is the line drawn?

Edited August 19, 2019 by MrUntouchable215

[iRitz]

2 minutes ago, MrUntouchable215 said:

Criminal characters abuse it? The difference is, we can't ride around with an SMG on our backs without being chased every corner. So cops should just ride around in Elegy Retro's lol

The point is, yes, it's extremely nonRP. You have police issued equipment, there is seriously no need for PD to try to match us at every corner when you're riding around on free gas, X-rays and high speed units along with almost no cap in members. By that logic, you guys should drive elegys, massacros and every other fast car that isnt your standard police cruiser. I'm sure that makes no sense to you, so a cop driving around a drag with an SMG on his back surely shouldn't make sense either.

So, you're saying that cops should just give up and let the gangs do their thing? We adapt, that's all... PD has the money and resources to adapt to changes in the city. Yet anytime that we try and adapt and match our opponents it's powergaming or nonRP?

We can't just keep saying "OOP there goes another gang member off road in his fancy XA-21 off road with seven other vehicles surrounding him to shoot at us if we keep following them." or "OOP there goes another person with a heavy weapon on their drag getting away, oh well we will get them next time in our slow ass police cruisers."

[MrUntouchable215]

1 minute ago, iRitz said:

So, you're saying that cops should just give up and let the gangs do their thing? We adapt, that's all... PD has the money and resources to adapt to changes in the city. Yet anytime that we try and adapt and match our opponents it's powergaming or nonRP?

We can't just keep saying "OOP there goes another gang member off road in his fancy XA-21 off road with seven other vehicles surrounding him to shoot at us if we keep following them." or "OOP there goes another person with a heavy weapon on their drag getting away, oh well we will get them next time in our slow ass police cruisers."

No, what I'm saying is, it's extremely tough to be criminal as is and every update thus far has been a direct nerf to crims. I'm saying, walk a mile in our shoes and see what we see and lose what we lose. When we die or go to jail, we lose actual items that we grinded to obtain. When you die, you lose nothing. What I'm saying is, there's a difference in the way we operate and that needs to be recognized rather than ignored. PD has more than enough to deal with criminals, there's enough guns, enough members, enough equipment to go around and none of it costs anything to your average officer. 

I'm all for PD having an advantage over crims, but there needs to be a line. The experience on the server changes dramatically when everything you do, involves things you had to grind to pay for. I mean ffs, you guys have the ability to quite literally remove our way of making money. The main issue I have is the mentality of the players on this server, not the server itself or even the development typically. People tend to have this "Being crim is bad, bad boy" mentally but forget about the fact that it's a core part of the server's RP. Development was put into it, criminals were intended to exist. When you think about it that way, can you honestly sit here and tell me that you don't understand what I'm saying?

 The players here need to quit this competitive "PD v Crim" mentality and start realizing that the crime RP of the server is becoming less and less fun. Fun is the keyword. That's why the ability to afk in prison needs to return and that's why things simply need to change. I shouldn't be unable to tell the difference between criminal and PD. Half of these dudes just want free smoke and who can blame them? You get free shit and the ability to shoot people daily? If the people in Zetas were in swat, crime simply wouldn't exist anymore on ECRP, it barely exists now.

[iRitz]

11 minutes ago, MrUntouchable215 said:

No, what I'm saying is, it's extremely tough to be criminal as is and every update thus far has been a direct nerf to crims. I'm saying, walk a mile in our shoes and see what we see and lose what we lose. When we die or go to jail, we lose actual items that we grinded to obtain. When you die, you lose nothing. What I'm saying is, there's a difference in the way we operate and that needs to be recognized rather than ignored. PD has more than enough to deal with criminals, there's enough guns, enough members, enough equipment to go around and none of it costs anything to your average officer. 

I'm all for PD having an advantage over crims, but there needs to be a line. The experience on the server changes dramatically when everything you do, involves things you had to grind to pay for. I mean ffs, you guys have the ability to quite literally remove our way of making money. The main issue I have is the mentality of the players on this server, not the server itself or even the development typically. People tend to have this "Being crim is bad, bad boy" mentally but forget about the fact that it's a core part of the server's RP. Development was put into it, criminals were intended to exist. When you think about it that way, can you honestly sit here and tell me that you don't understand what I'm saying?

 The players here need to quit this competitive "PD v Crim" mentality and start realizing that the crime RP of the server is becoming less and less fun. Fun is the keyword. That's why the ability to afk in prison needs to return and that's why things simply need to change. I shouldn't be unable to tell the difference between criminal and PD. Half of these dudes just want free smoke and who can blame them? You get free shit and the ability to shoot people daily? If the people in Zetas were in swat, crime simply wouldn't exist anymore on ECRP, it barely exists now. 

I can tell you that it has never been PD v Crim mentality, it has been "What is realistic RP?" and everyone has a different opinion on where that stands. Some may find it realistic that PD create a special unit dealing with high speed pursuits while some may find it realistic to evade up a mountain or unrealistic terrain. Then we have those that break FearRP, force DeathRP then somehow they are back on the street committing crimes because NLR applies and PD has to deal with the same person over and over. Some PD find it unrealistic for criminals to have long range radios on hand where they can communicate with their buddies saying "I'm being pulled over!", because it's unrealistic for PD to threaten their life for relaying radio transmissions...

There is no way for PD to win in those types of situations. Which is why we adapt.

 

The real question everyone needs to get together on OOCly is "What is realistic in these type of situations?"

Yes it is realistic for XRAY to be in the air so they can give us a location of the vehicle being pursued.

Yes it is realistic for SWAT to be heavily armed in operations.

No it isn't realistic for Police Officers to be heavily armed on drags, however given the unrealistic RP of drags going up mountains and unrealistic roadways we make this exception ESPECIALLY when they are a wanted felon.

No it isn't realistic for Gangs to have radios where they can communicate and obstruct every Police Officer 10-55 or 10-66, however this will never change as it will upset the majority of the server.

No it isn't realistic for Gangs to have a silencer on shotguns or machine guns, how the hell does this even happen?

(AND MUCH MORE)

[Marca]

Render distance is the same for all players, meaning if you can see them, they can see you. I don't understand why PD shouldn't use helicopters, while they can be evaded. I have seen people get away from air units before. As far as fuel goes, it goes very fast especially if the pilot doesn't have VIP.

People also use bikes and sports cars to drive up mountains to evade cops, but you think helicopters are PG... lmao

[37hh]

42 minutes ago, iRitz said:

No it isn't realistic for Gangs to have radios where they can communicate and obstruct every Police Officer 10-55 or 10-66, however this will never change as it will upset the majority of the server.

No it isn't realistic for Gangs to have a silencer on shotguns or machine guns, how the hell does this even happen?

(AND MUCH MORE)

Typically I ignore these threads and let them play themselves out, but holy SHIT you are wilding out right now.
Are you completely blind in relation to today's crime? I'm sorry but you're speaking like you're from the 1960's right now, you do realize that drug cartels BUILD their own radio towers to communicate correct? Every single gang member on patrol, working, has a walkie talkie at their side. There's a link blow to ONE story, I'll let you search the rest for yourself, if you don't believe members of a cartel use radio's in real life, you are completely blind and have NO clue what you're talking about. I'm gonna let you know something, it may hurt to hear, this super realistic roleplay you're looking for, won't be found daily on this server, and it's not entirely criminals to blame. Coming from someone who's played a character on both sides of this never ending out of character war, ( PO2 in PD, Lieutenant in Los Zetas ) I can definitely say, even your beloved high command, love shootouts, and enjoy winning. It's a video game, and that's what it's always going to be, no matter how hard you shoot for realism, people are here to have fun, this is a hobby, and I can guarantee you there's not a single person who plays daily on this server, making a living from it. Both sides have valid arguments, I've been pulled over for passing an officer, in a passing lane, and he attempted to arrest me for it, this is not realistic, the actions pd involve themselves in, are not realistic. Aiming a gun at someone for not following demands while that person is showing no aggression, with no reason for your weapon to be pulled, will end up with a lawsuit, and your job in the trash can.

To your second point, you truly went out of your way, to say how the hell does this even happen, when speaking about suppressors? AHAHAHAHAH.
Below you'll find two links, one for a suppressor designed specifically for any 12 gauge shotgun, that you can purchase simply by entering credit card details and a shipping address. Suppressors are legal in every single state, 42 of them, you don't even need a permit for. The other link, are suppressors for 5.56, 7.26, handguns, and rifles, any of which can be applied to the commonly used weapons in the server, including the micro smg with an UZI mount. Please, please do your research, a quick google search, before commenting something so ignorant, typically when someone says " (AND MUCH MORE) " in large bold quotes, I'd be quite interested to see what they'd have to say, but after reading what you just said, I'd be embarrassed to dig myself an even deeper hole. Thanks!

Edit: I cannot stress enough how sophisticated and advanced modern cartels are, seriously, do some research, it's fascinating and there's no reason players on the server shouldn't be able to mimic these strategies, if you wanted " realistic " roleplay, and these players want to roleplay a cartel, they couldn't even do 5% of what modern cartels manage to pull off.  


https://www.silencershop.com/

https://silencerco.com/salvo-12

https://www.popsci.com/article/technology/radio-tecnico-how-zetas-cartel-took-over-mexico-walkie-talkies/

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by 37hh