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CrowCargo

Create or Clarify the basic rights of citizens in the state of LS

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Recently I had a police officer tell my character that as a citizen of LS I have only two legal rights. This stemmed from my character standing on what he confirmed was public property, and requesting that I move from there. My character asked if it was a request or a demand, and he replied it was a request, to which I replied that it is my right to stand where ever i choose on public property and I have the right to refuse a request. The officer then said i only have two rights as a citizen, The first being the right to remain silent, and the second being the right to a State Sponsored legal attorney if or when questioned. If this truly is the case, then I feel like there should absolutely be a clear bill of rights for citizens of LS. It would serve to protect civilians, giving them clear grounds through public access and knowledge as to what they can do RPly, without being harrassed by officers of the law to the extent that I and others have witnessed, as well as preventing points of contention, and the sloppy and casual use of arrests for 'disturbing the peace' purely because of refusal to comply with a request.

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The fact is, Civilians are the loot piñatas of Eclipse RP.

Our purpose, is to serve as targets for criminals to chase after and abuse to get a few dollars. 

Constant harassment, attacks, and living every second of the day waiting to be attacked is miserable. And it is clear, after several reports in which not only are the reports denied, but each one of them instead the civilian was punished and reprimanded, the admins and staff have no desire to create a thriving civ community.

The few of us still trying to do it either get so frustrated we turn to crime, or act as the punching bags for the community in hopes one day things will change.

Civ RP is simply not supported, nor is it a priority for NBDY and the staff. If it is, they are clearly completely out of touch with the player base, and have no idea how to make it better.

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I'll add that there is an official penal code in the police department subforum that outlines everything that is and isn't legal. I'd check that spreadsheet to see if standing on public property is listed.

It might be a good idea to put the laws in a more obvious and accessible area.

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I literally would have no idea where an Ic email would go, I have asked a few cops about it and no one seems to have a definitive answer, I tried using /report 1 asking an admin but got no reply after nearly 40 mins, and every time ive been to city hall it has been empty or occasionaly had a few people with (new player) over their heads running around the building being as confused as i am. If I am supposed to find a city representative regarding legislation, then those representatives need to be more well known, accessible, and more in the city as community reps.

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17 minutes ago, Jasmine said:

The fact is, Civilians are the loot piñatas of Eclipse RP.

Our purpose, is to serve as targets for criminals to chase after and abuse to get a few dollars. 

Constant harassment, attacks, and living every second of the day waiting to be attacked is miserable. And it is clear, after several reports in which not only are the reports denied, but each one of them instead the civilian was punished and reprimanded, the admins and staff have no desire to create a thriving civ community.

The few of us still trying to do it either get so frustrated we turn to crime, or act as the punching bags for the community in hopes one day things will change.

Civ RP is simply not supported, nor is it a priority for NBDY and the staff. If it is, they are clearly completely out of touch with the player base, and have no idea how to make it better.

I only started playing on the server yesterday, but I will agree that it feels like my job is to drive a truck around and hope to not get robbed.  There doesn't seem much else for civilians to do, as the jobs (especially the most profitable ones like farming and mining) require zero player interaction, so I just drive around to try and make enough money for a car while hoping that nobody decides to jump me as I'm leaving the foundry.

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Just now, ShyNudist said:

I'll add that there is an official penal code in the police department subforum that outlines everything that is and isn't legal. I'd check that spreadsheet to see if standing on public property is listed.

It might be a good idea to put the laws in a more obvious and accessible area.

The difference is the penal code refers to breaking laws. A citizens rights are a different subject all together, for example the right to practice a religion, or the right to freedom of speech. They serve as the foundations of peoples freedoms, rather than a guide on why your freedoms might be revoked.

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7 minutes ago, Scott Cleverley said:

Not sure about whole story why you were asked to leave and so on. Also people tend to think that DOC is public property...

It wasn't at DOC, it was at mission row. I was there when happened and got threatened by an officer myself.  Simply airing opinions it's not permitted if they don't like what you're saying, which is what this is all about, getting clearly defined rights of citizen's of LS.

 

As for civ RP, it's frowned upon here.  Criminals have all of the rights and no matter how fast from reality, being robbed is a part of life.  My question is, how many of you have ever been robbed in real life?  How many of you have been robbed multiple times in a day? Robbed in a public place during daylight?  The argument is always, it happens in RL all the time, but I doubt many of you have ever experienced it in RL. So that argument is flawed from the start.

The only solution is to make it so the criminals get nothing but rp from these situations and I'm telling every new player IC how to do that to avoid a claim of mg. When criminals try to rob hundreds of people and get nothing but rp from it, that's what they signed up for right?

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Reckless311 said:

 

It wasn't at DOC, it was at mission row. I was there when happened and got threatened by an officer myself.  Simply airing opinions it's not permitted if they don't like what you're saying, which is what this is all about, getting clearly defined rights of citizen's of LS.

 

In any public place officer may demand you to leave the place for disturbance of peace.

talking about robberies I would agree 100%, as in my understanding in broad daylight and on a street there should be considered people watching at all the times and you couldn't just rob anyone like that. But it's up to admins and they don't want to do nothing about it, they just say it happens IRL, lets just pretend it's not cops vs criminals server with some rules.

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4 minutes ago, Scott Cleverley said:

In any public place officer may demand you to leave the place for disturbance of peace.

talking about robberies I would agree 100%, as in my understanding in broad daylight and on a street there should be considered people watching at all the times and you couldn't just rob anyone like that. But it's up to admins and they don't want to do nothing about it, they just say it happens IRL, lets just pretend it's not cops vs criminals server with some rules.

The threat was resisting arrest.  We weren't under arrest. Only having a civil discussion on police refusing to arrest someone for a crime that was committed with evidence. 

 

Agreed on cops vs criminals

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58 minutes ago, CrowCargo said:

afaik in the US they may request, but that is no different from anyone else making a request.  A demand, can only follow with any authority if you are being detained.

This is 100% correct. Unless their is harm to self or others, a law is being broken, or an arrest is being made, an officer has no more right to move or touch you, than any other civilian.

Police officers only ever have power over you if you are breaking the law, or to protect you and others from harm (presumably because you are breaking the law).

This is a basic right of civilians.

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If the incident took place at Police Department in Mission Row, I believe there's "no loitering" signs posted around. I know they're there in vanilla GTA5 but maybe they enforce that policy to avoid gatherings of people outside the PD like you can find at the bank entrance.

I can see it being an issue having people hanging around potentially disrupting movements of police officers and maybe caught suspects as well at the police station.

 

Lastly, this does seem like an IC matter to be addressed ICly. There is the government website that hosts information and potential avenues to contacting officials.

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You can refer to the United States Constitution for your rights as a citizen, as Los Santos is considered to be in America.

The more you misunderstand, misconstrue, or simply make things up about this document and insist it's the truth, the better.

Edited by Victor Einhart
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9 hours ago, Victor Einhart said:

You can refer to the United States Constitution for your rights as a citizen, as Los Santos is considered to be in America.

The more you misunderstand, misconstrue, or simply make things up about this document and insist it's the truth, the better.

Hahahah you're funny, los santos follows nothing of the constitution. The legal system is basically "Whatever the cops feel like" and once they put charges on you, you serve time and can never get a job because you can't have it removed from your record, and even if you name change they OOC rp knowing your charges... I've been a law abiding citizen with two legal jobs, one of them at the DOC for months now and I still can't get a gun license because they have a policy where if they know you've committed a crime, you have to CK to remove it... even though IRL a sufficient amount of time could expunge it, or you could argue it legally, or you could have it sealed by the government or military. The police have very PG policies as well, blocking doors with a single car knowing the back door and windows are not real is allowed even though its textbook PG, using ooc information to make investigations for licensing and arrest has been done many times and it has been given the thumbs up...  The PD have no checks in this server and civilians have no rights. I love civilian RP but people are right, there is little to support it, the closest ive had to decent civilian RP is hiding in my own home (where everyone's car gets stolen constantly because los santos is a cops and robbers sim) or at the bank or tequilala.... you go anywhere that is not an NCZ it feels more like rust than IRL.... Victor is a good officer in game, but dont get the impression PD are much better than criminals for "respecting rights". 

Edited by Wizzidy
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Government (city hall) in ECRP isn't fully done yet, it's actually non functional right now apart from some business registration forms. There are plans to expand that, to a functional justice system and IRS. These things require a lot of studying of the law and also need data. Devs have confirmed that they're monitoring the budget, but gathering this data takes time.

As far as civilian rights go, there are quite a lot more than that officer told you. He was either being ignorant IC or doesn't understand the law at all on a OOC level. But considering this is a game, you can't expect people to understand the laws fully, especially if they're from another country. I do agree that a law book would come in handy, however it would take a very long time to write it and it can get to a point where it's not fun. We all know how many stupid laws there are IRL and how complicated they can be.

As far as your first encounter goes, loitering is against the law, but you cannot be arrested for it. If someone that owns the property asks you to leave, you should leave. A government employee can also ask you to leave, however there have to be legal grounds for that. Those are, but not limited to, you standing in a dangerous area, getting in the way of public service workers, obstructing other people, wearing a mask for no apparent reason, there's suspicion that you'll do illegal activities, intimidating people, begging and so on. All of those can be defined as loitering.

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29 minutes ago, Marca said:

Government (city hall) in ECRP isn't fully done yet, it's actually non functional right now apart from some business registration forms. There are plans to expand that, to a functional justice system and IRS. These things require a lot of studying of the law and also need data. Devs have confirmed that they're monitoring the budget, but gathering this data takes time.

As far as civilian rights go, there are quite a lot more than that officer told you. He was either being ignorant IC or doesn't understand the law at all on a OOC level. But considering this is a game, you can't expect people to understand the laws fully, especially if they're from another country. I do agree that a law book would come in handy, however it would take a very long time to write it and it can get to a point where it's not fun. We all know how many stupid laws there are IRL and how complicated they can be.

As far as your first encounter goes, loitering is against the law, but you cannot be arrested for it. If someone that owns the property asks you to leave, you should leave. A government employee can also ask you to leave, however there have to be legal grounds for that. Those are, but not limited to, you standing in a dangerous area, getting in the way of public service workers, obstructing other people, wearing a mask for no apparent reason, there's suspicion that you'll do illegal activities, intimidating people, begging and so on. All of those can be defined as loitering.

This, the systems are currently very incomplete and a basic lawbook of "most common laws" to be invoked would be nice. We have a charge and legal listing but its actually really far behind some of the charges are mislabeled... the problem I think is that mostly it is a thankless job... so its hard for government to pick up such a big task quickly.

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5 hours ago, Wizzidy said:

The legal system is basically "Whatever the cops feel like" and once they put charges on you, you serve time and can never get a job because you can't have it removed from your record, and even if you name change they OOC rp knowing your charges.

The name change system currently in place is completely powergame. CKs do not truly exist and many people will namechange to clear warrants and avoid tickets. An actual CK should result in at least a partial character wipe so it's not something you just do on a whim because it benefits you in some way.

5 hours ago, Wizzidy said:

they have a policy where if they know you've committed a crime, you have to CK to remove it... even though IRL a sufficient amount of time could expunge it, or you could argue it legally, or you could have it sealed by the government or military.

I doubt that is their policy, it's just what everybody does so they can avoid the consequences of their actions. Putting a legal system in place would be a complete disaster from what I have seen of this community, so GOAT's post about prison and various other ideas is probably the best course of action.

Regarding expunged or sealed criminal records; in the state of California you cannot erase a criminal record from public view, instead the case is opened, the guilty plea or verdict withdrawn, and the charges dismissed. This would involve the court and a judge, which is an unlikely outcome on Eclipse. Sealing a record would involve petitioning the LSPD, then if not provided relief you would petition the court. Since people on this server (and you) have an issue with the LSPD I doubt you expect any results from petitioning the LSPD, and the court route is still no good.

There is a Certificate of Innocence and Certificate of Rehabilitation which both involve the court, so can't really do anything there. The only viable option would be receiving a pardon from the San Andreas State Government. Rather than bitching and complaining about the LSPD in every thread you should speak with City Hall about your concern.

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4 hours ago, Linden said:

The name change system currently in place is completely powergame. CKs do not truly exist and many people will namechange to clear warrants and avoid tickets. An actual CK should result in at least a partial character wipe so it's not something you just do on a whim because it benefits you in some way.

I doubt that is their policy, it's just what everybody does so they can avoid the consequences of their actions. Putting a legal system in place would be a complete disaster from what I have seen of this community, so GOAT's post about prison and various other ideas is probably the best course of action.

Regarding expunged or sealed criminal records; in the state of California you cannot erase a criminal record from public view, instead the case is opened, the guilty plea or verdict withdrawn, and the charges dismissed. This would involve the court and a judge, which is an unlikely outcome on Eclipse. Sealing a record would involve petitioning the LSPD, then if not provided relief you would petition the court. Since people on this server (and you) have an issue with the LSPD I doubt you expect any results from petitioning the LSPD, and the court route is still no good.

There is a Certificate of Innocence and Certificate of Rehabilitation which both involve the court, so can't really do anything there. The only viable option would be receiving a pardon from the San Andreas State Government. Rather than bitching and complaining about the LSPD in every thread you should speak with City Hall about your concern.

There is never anyone at City Hall when @CrowCargogoes there, which you probably missed in this conversation.  So where is the recourse if you can never find anyone at City Hall?

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15 minutes ago, Reckless311 said:

There is never anyone at City Hall when @CrowCargogoes there, which you probably missed in this conversation.  So where is the recourse if you can never find anyone at City Hall?

Firstly, it's a response to Wizzidy who does nothing but complain about LSPD in every single thread.

Ofc there isn't going to be people at City Hall most of the time, it's a tiny faction. Rather than going to the building you are better off contacting them on the website via PM. https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/

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5 hours ago, Linden said:

The name change system currently in place is completely powergame. CKs do not truly exist and many people will namechange to clear warrants and avoid tickets. An actual CK should result in at least a partial character wipe so it's not something you just do on a whim because it benefits you in some way.

I doubt that is their policy, it's just what everybody does so they can avoid the consequences of their actions. Putting a legal system in place would be a complete disaster from what I have seen of this community, so GOAT's post about prison and various other ideas is probably the best course of action.

Regarding expunged or sealed criminal records; in the state of California you cannot erase a criminal record from public view, instead the case is opened, the guilty plea or verdict withdrawn, and the charges dismissed. This would involve the court and a judge, which is an unlikely outcome on Eclipse. Sealing a record would involve petitioning the LSPD, then if not provided relief you would petition the court. Since people on this server (and you) have an issue with the LSPD I doubt you expect any results from petitioning the LSPD, and the court route is still no good.

There is a Certificate of Innocence and Certificate of Rehabilitation which both involve the court, so can't really do anything there. The only viable option would be receiving a pardon from the San Andreas State Government. Rather than bitching and complaining about the LSPD in every thread you should speak with City Hall about your concern.

A: Name change would be PG however not having the ability to expunge records, argue legality, and so on would also be horrible PG... this means if an officer doesnt like you, he/she can permenantly cripple your character with no legal recourse as has happened to quite a few people already. The policy is in fact CK or nothing.. even though a crime  committed so many years ago would be able to be expunged by state law in almost every state, definitely in California, the whole thing is "selective realism" its "reality" to deny a gun crime by knowing a person's forum name because "cops wouldnt fall for a name change" but it is "too much" to consider somone has speant over a month without a single crime in the game and should be eligible or a charge removal... charge expunging exists for the exact reason it is needed in this server, because you can cripple somone for life over 1 thing and never give them a chance to change. 


Proof that California does offer expunging of criminal records. 
https://www.shouselaw.com/expunge-criminal-records.html

B: Also I have spoken with the government and I have spoken with PD and the chief warden of the DOC where I have maintained a job for over a month of RL time without a crime anywhere and have done nothing but serve the people of LS has spoken on my behalf, to which what was received was nothing short of a "We will never do that"...

I have spoken to the chief of police, I have spoken to the commissioner...  I have used every route eligible while maintaining the cleanest record of anyone in LS. Not to mention the only reason I didnt CK is because I was told BY AN OFFICER that Name Change wiped criminal records, and I did it, now a month later I am expected to CK or face never-ending penalty?

Instead of assuming I have done nothing, ask, instead of just saying "court wont work" why not thinking of alternatives, I tried petitioning PD with the credit of the govt and a chief of the DOC and it yielded nothing because PD doesnt like to be wrong. I didn't always have a problem with PD btw, I only got this way because of this over-arching powergame... "5 hours in prison is too much for criminals they cant enjoy the game enough if they go to jail for a long time.... " same people "Killing a month of RL character development is the only way to expunge a crime where you never held a weapon and was slapped on you while unconscious in a hospital" seems good man... seems fun and fair... whos realism is this helping?


To keep this on topic, we need rights listed so we can use them. Right now rights are "Whatever PD feels like RPing at the time" and its not kosher... no courts is understandable it would be a shit show, but there should be some avenue of arguing against PD that is valid..... they are the only faction with the power to permanently ruin a character and yet they answer to not a soul.... no constitution is used... shit we havent heard miranda.... literally ever...

Edited by Wizzidy
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1 hour ago, Linden said:

Firstly, it's a response to Wizzidy who does nothing but complain about LSPD in every single thread.

Ofc there isn't going to be people at City Hall most of the time, it's a tiny faction. Rather than going to the building you are better off contacting them on the website via PM. https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/

Also that's rather rude and inaccurate.  I only point to it when relevant, usually in threads regarding legality and punishment... in which it is extremely relevant... and the core of the topic. I am sorry you think all I do is complain about PD, but I do quite a bit more if you take the time to look at my posts. Also my complaint is never with PD in general, it is with the acceptance that they should be an unchecked power. I don't agree with it, and it leads to a toxic environment. A lot of people hate PD... I do not, I RP with them more than most in game... but I believe they need to be checked.

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