How to make Law Enforcement Vehicles Fair and Balanced

[Diligo]

-1 This is too unrealistic, just replace every PD cruiser with niobe and we are good

[padpilot]

Shocked to see this isn't already a thing. Seems highly unfair to "hotswap" vehicles like this. Timer seems like a much needed solution.

 

Adding onto this a bit of RP. If an officer is constantly crashing vehicles result in high timers, then once the amount hits a certain amount, they would be required to take a driver refresher course or something. 

 

Anyways, great suggestion. +1

[Quietthecutie]

46 minutes ago, padpilot said:

Shocked to see this isn't already a thing. Seems highly unfair to "hotswap" vehicles like this. Timer seems like a much needed solution.

 

Adding onto this a bit of RP. If an officer is constantly crashing vehicles result in high timers, then once the amount hits a certain amount, they would be required to take a driver refresher course or something. 

 

Anyways, great suggestion. +1

I agree with the Idea in principle. but its important to remember crims do this as much as LEOs. the gripe seems to be with LEOs not having to pay for each vehicle they pull out but then again have you ever seen a police depot? there are dozens, in bigger precincts, hundreds of cruisers waiting to be deployed. from a gameplay perspective I can understand the desire for some kind of cap when it comes to individual chases but not a hard timer.

[fweasy]

can we just have LEO go to the mechanic to repair their car and call it a day

[inorigj]

On 9/25/2024 at 6:51 PM, fweasy said:

can we just have LEO go to the mechanic to repair their car and call it a day

I actually agree with this. As there is nothing preventing a faction vehicle from being fixed by mechanics. I hear some random people now and then say. No that's not possible. It will bug the vehicle. As someone who gets their ambulance repaired at Bayview or LSC A LOT. I can confirm that. That's a huge pile of bs.

FLATBEDS bug faction vehicles. Vehicle repairs do not.

[Bala]

Not sure making it less convenient for cops to do their jobs gets us anywhere closer to where we want to be, if I'm honest but then I'm clearly biased.

Doesn't match the server we play on either, everything here is about convenience and the next thing so it doesn't really work.

[Spizor]

I will never understand suggestions that use "realism" as their main point, it doesn't really lead anywhere. Suggest something from a game mechanics perspective that is relevant to how the server operates, not how things work in real life. There's no "cop spawning cars" issue, just like there's no issue with JB, LSC, MD, and all the other government factions that can spawn cars.

I don't need to be forced to drive a 90s cruiser because a criminal decided to turn mine into swiss cheese over a speeding citation. Officers are not restricted to just one cruiser per model, they can be assigned a new one of the same model fairly quickly after one is damaged, just like in real life. Old photo but you get the point

[Demonmit1]

11 hours ago, Bala said:

Not sure making it less convenient for cops to do their jobs gets us anywhere closer to where we want to be

yes, it would be inconvenient to no longer let law enforcement delete and spawn vehicles as they wish, and force them to roleplay with other players who are mechanics to get their vehicles repaired quickly by paying the repair fee everyone else pays, or have a timer for their cruiser to be repaired for free by the department. It's almost like people are playing on a server like this to have player interactions, and this current system discourages that. you even said yourself:

why is law enforcement allowed to avoid any interaction with the three mechanic factions in the server for the sake of convenience? 

4 hours ago, Spizor said:

Suggest something from a game mechanics perspective that is relevant to how the server operates

law enforcement have several dozen vehicles available to use. 95% of law enforcement use the STX and Scout, because they are "meta" from law enforcement perspective. It would also only affect those who misuse their vehicles. do you regularly stall your cruiser and thats why you dont like this? encouraging variation in what cruisers are used is a positive thing, and punishing law enforcement players for misusing their equipment regularly is a positive thing. its an odd game mechanic that the all powerful law enforcement are allowed to delete and respawn their cars in the middle of a chase to instantly fix damage. its not a "realism" argument its a balance argument

Edited October 1, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Quietthecutie]

1 hour ago, Demonmit1 said:

yes, it would be inconvenient to no longer let law enforcement delete and spawn vehicles as they wish, and force them to roleplay with other players who are mechanics to get their vehicles repaired quickly by paying the repair fee everyone else pays, or have a timer for their cruiser to be repaired for free by the department. It's almost like people are playing on a server like this to have player interactions, and this current system discourages that. you even said yourself:

why is law enforcement allowed to avoid any interaction with the three mechanic factions in the server for the sake of convenience? 

law enforcement have several dozen vehicles available to use. 95% of law enforcement use the STX and Scout, because they are "meta" from law enforcement perspective. It would also only affect those who misuse their vehicles. do you regularly stall your cruiser and thats why you dont like this? encouraging variation in what cruisers are used is a positive thing, and punishing law enforcement players for misusing their equipment regularly is a positive thing. its an odd game mechanic that the all powerful law enforcement are allowed to delete and respawn their cars in the middle of a chase to instantly fix damage. its not a "realism" argument its a balance argument

Ok so this argument has 2 prongs then, the "realistic" argument. and the "gameplay" argument.

Tackling the Realistic argument first:

The LSSD is modelled after the LASD. The LSPD is modelled after the LAPD. so looking at scale on a REALLY busy night LEOs have maybe 20-25 officers on watch and maybe 20 units or so (thats 20 cars on the road. which is again, generous.) 

Both factions would realistically have their own mechanic services and vehicle storage on or near their precinct buildings. dozens of mechanics maintaining and repairing hundreds of cruisers to maintain a presence in metropolitan and state jurisdictions in a well patrolled and well funded state which LS absolutely is.

So from a realism standpoint, is it ok for LEOs to drive into a station and swap out battered cruisers for fresh ones? Yes. an argument could be made that they should have to radio dispatch to do so and maybe complete some paperwork after but there's nothing wrong with this realistically. they would 100% have the ability to do this. all this change would do would increase the already large amount of paperwork LEOs have to complete after an incident.}

But of course this argument has two sides. do you feel its realistic that most criminals drive around in high end sports motorcycles, military off road vehicles and supercars? this never gets raised in this argument or handwaved as "necessary for the function of the server." If that's necessary then LEOs ability to pull vehicles 100% is.

[Bala]

2 hours ago, Demonmit1 said:

why is law enforcement allowed to avoid any interaction with the three mechanic factions in the server for the sake of convenience? 

Because we do not own our vehicles, they are job vehicles.

Would you want a bus driver not to be able to spawn a bus because he's damaged it and need a mechanic? No.
Would you want a postal worker to not be able to spawn a boxville? No.

Functionally, they are the same. 

No disrespect intended for the mechanic factions when I say this but if we start bringing mechanics away from mechanic shops to come fix vehicles, what do you think the knock on effect of that will be? Who is going to suffer because of that?

We don't have enough people to make something like that work.

2 hours ago, Demonmit1 said:

law enforcement have several dozen vehicles available to use. 95% of law enforcement use the STX and Scout, because they are "meta" from law enforcement perspective. It would also only affect those who misuse their vehicles. do you regularly stall your cruiser and thats why you dont like this? encouraging variation in what cruisers are used is a positive thing, and punishing law enforcement players for misusing their equipment regularly is a positive thing. its an odd game mechanic that the all powerful law enforcement are allowed to delete and respawn their cars in the middle of a chase to instantly fix damage. its not a "realism" argument its a balance argument

I mostly use a Dominator FX buddy. Because I like that it looks like a disco inside it when it's night time, so don't assume.

I encourage people to use what vehicles they want, as long as it keeps within the server rules. Doesn't matter what section of the community they're playing on. 

We'll put in some more meta police vehicles, just for you, so you don't get bored with just seeing the STX and Scout. 

[Diligo]

Sounds like an endless back and forth.

Changing a game mechanic like this would bring a butterfly effect.

One after the other asking another change because of this or that change, just endless changes just because LEOs or Crims dont feel its balanced at any given time.

LEOs are made to focus on actual important gangs/criminal organizations which are causing the most havoc in the city - big drug sales; bank robberies; high class vehicles stolen; illegal guns sold and yada yada.
Like a crim myself I also like to take time off rolling labs or whatever and just do some freelance.
I guess the same goes to LEOs - they want to take time off the big gangs to crush the small up and coming gangs.

I rarely see big gangs complaining about LEOs available game scripts, vehicles or weapons, because they have found a way around it. (not talking about rule breaks)

if you dont have a high speed car or good driving skills and/or knowledge on how to escape a chase, you will get rocked.
And that is usually a problem for newer gangs/players.

As roleplay is to have fun living out stories of different types of characters - I would suggest to both parties to improvize.
You as a crim dont like a rule change catered to LEOs? Improvize, be creative. Find out how you can beat it.
You as a LEO dont like a rule change catered to crims? Improvize, be creative. Find out how you can beat it.

I am not talking about bending rules to your advantage, I am talking about innovating new roleplay.
I wont give any examples, because I am doing them myself or I havent tried out - but I have my advantage over certain situations because I innovate and dont break the rules.

 

TL;DR -
And as for this example - cops deleting and taking new cruisers? well maybe a 10 second timer (pulling it out of the garage) when you first take out your vehicle. 10 seconds is not a lot of wait, it's realistic, you know, placing the trashed can of a car back in and taking out a new one.

 

EDIT: I actually think taking stuff out the garage should have a timer whenever - whether its an appartment, a house, a mechanic taking out a flatbed etc.

Edited October 1, 2024 by Nikolia

[padpilot]

This is a rolepay server based on real life. However it is a game first and foremost. I'm realising realism is never a strong argument on ECRP. Rather gameplay and balance which results in higher RP for all should be the main driving force. Stop worrying about realism and consider balancing. 

Is it balanced, that's the only question. 

[Doctor_Diddler]

When suggesting things like "PD should get their cruisers fixed", you're only really considering it from the perspective on how to put the thumbscrews to PD.

Why, exactly, shouldn't smaller gangs be forced underground? Law enforcement represents the state's just monopoly on violence to preserve order. If you want to flagrantly break that order, prepare to have the arm of the state descend upon you. If you're small time - act like it. You surrender peacefully and serve less time. You avoid police attention. You don't have the resources to wage war, so you keep a low profile. Maybe instead of trying to flee in a doomed evasion, you just bite it and save yourself the time.

It is horrifically unrealistic to have cars doing 240 in the city, or have, say, OTF literally killing almost every cop in the entire city without the national guard descending in.

LEO'S just adapt to the crim meta. If every chase was a warrener, you'd see more caracaras and staniers. PD has to be able to keep up with the likes of Niobes, kamachos, drags, etc. I love the caracara, but it's so slow that you're basically inviting anyone you pull over to laugh at you while they drive away. I love the light enhanced Stanier, but I'm not going to even entertain pulling over a drag with it.

 

You want less meta choices? Easy fix - lower the speed cap. I will happily oblige.

[N e o n]

15 hours ago, Demonmit1 said:

law enforcement have several dozen vehicles available to use. 95% of law enforcement use the STX and Scout, because they are "meta" from law enforcement perspective. It would also only affect those who misuse their vehicles. do you regularly stall your cruiser and thats why you dont like this? encouraging variation in what cruisers are used is a positive thing, and punishing law enforcement players for misusing their equipment regularly is a positive thing. its an odd game mechanic that the all powerful law enforcement are allowed to delete and respawn their cars in the middle of a chase to instantly fix damage. its not a "realism" argument its a balance argument

95% of Law Enforcement on the server uses STXs and Scouts because, yes, they are meta. Can we talk about what criminals use and what meta is for them? Niobe, Paragon S, Itali GTO, Hakuchou Drag, La Coreuse, and I can list more, that not even a police helicopter can catch up. That's beside the point. There are IC consequences if you damage a cruiser, you could get suspended easily if you drive recklessly and do not value police equipment, but to wait 30 minutes, an hour, and whatnot to get your cruiser fixed or use slower vehicles because a new player in a Warrener decides to ram the living soul out of you for his own fun, is not balancing at all.

If gangs and criminals, in general, were realistic, you wouldn't see too many STXs and overpowered police vehicles, hell, even fewer helicopters on chases. If we are talking about realism, have you seen what cars gangs and criminal organizations in Los Angeles use? Have you seen LAPD and LASD pursuits and see what the people flee in? I encourage you to look on YouTube for Los Angeles pursuits and see for yourself what's realistic and balanced. If criminals used Warreners, Ranchers, and other slow vehicles, then you'd FOR SURE see more variety in police vehicles.

The moral of the story is, we use STXs and Scouts to keep up with the criminals. If you want variety and slower police vehicles, encourage criminals to roleplay properly and buy shittier vehicles, because, if we are talking about reality, 99% of criminals barely make any money, and only 1-2% of criminals have high-end vehicles in real life. We swap cruisers because criminals and new players intentionally make our cars look like pancakes.

[padpilot]

1 hour ago, N e o n said:

95% of Law Enforcement on the server uses STXs and Scouts because, yes, they are meta. Can we talk about what criminals use and what meta is for them? Niobe, Paragon S, Itali GTO, Hakuchou Drag, La Coreuse, and I can list more, that not even a police helicopter can catch up. That's beside the point. There are IC consequences if you damage a cruiser, you could get suspended easily if you drive recklessly and do not value police equipment, but to wait 30 minutes, an hour, and whatnot to get your cruiser fixed or use slower vehicles because a new player in a Warrener decides to ram the living soul out of you for his own fun, is not balancing at all.

If gangs and criminals, in general, were realistic, you wouldn't see too many STXs and overpowered police vehicles, hell, even fewer helicopters on chases. If we are talking about realism, have you seen what cars gangs and criminal organizations in Los Angeles use? Have you seen LAPD and LASD pursuits and see what the people flee in? I encourage you to look on YouTube for Los Angeles pursuits and see for yourself what's realistic and balanced. If criminals used Warreners, Ranchers, and other slow vehicles, then you'd FOR SURE see more variety in police vehicles.

The moral of the story is, we use STXs and Scouts to keep up with the criminals. If you want variety and slower police vehicles, encourage criminals to roleplay properly and buy shittier vehicles, because, if we are talking about reality, 99% of criminals barely make any money, and only 1-2% of criminals have high-end vehicles in real life. We swap cruisers because criminals and new players intentionally make our cars look like pancakes.

Police has far greater resources available to them than the speed of their vehicle..... so what if crims have fast cars. police have amazing and perfectly working radios, ability to track their friends on the GPS, ability to insta-respawn cars etc and a whole assortment of available features that crims do not, and rightfully should not have access to. 

Simply allowing police to drive faster vehicles is a patch to a problem. Get good essentially. Use the comms, train the officers and use those scripts which offer such a clear advantage to help take down the crims.... simply giving you a faster ride is BS balancing

On the flip note, in no way should a crim be driving around in a super fast ridiculous drag bike at labs, its cheesy as hell that literally evry gang drives around in Kamachos (hence why my gang has banned all sportscars, drags and Kamachos)... these low RP gangs that all drive the same vehicles are 100% forcing Police into a tougher positions... 

HOWEVER, crims go faster,  police should get better tactics, by giving the police easy access to such fast vehicles its only hindering the RP of other criminal groups, those willing to actually drive around in RP appropriate vehicles.

[addybeta]

I find it crazy that so many LEO players are turning a simple suggestion about having a cooldown for pulling out vehicles, to a full on LEO vs Crim debate. Lets go back to the main point of adding a cooldown for switching. 

Why are we saying its fine to instantly pull out another STX after recking one. If its because the precint RPly has multiple STXs then where is the limit? I honestly dont think its a big ask for there to be a 10 minute timer if you manage to get a red engine light on your cruiser, or get your tires popped. Most players usually park it well before that time anyway, around the yellow engine light. 

If someone takes out the highspeeds tires, why do we accept the fact that the officer can go to a nearby precinct, and instantly pull out a fresh jugular? Does it get fixed or do they grab a new one? If they grab a new one, then how many jugulars do they have, because from what I know there are RPly only 2. Same goes with helicopters.

[George Oliver]

I'm a shit driver even with a controller so no -1000 and if we did we do get punished if its constant wage garnish i think if we do it take time for the mechanics to be deployed and sometimes to even be picked up by another officer 

Edited October 2, 2024 by George Oliver

[Jett_J]

4 minutes ago, George Oliver said:

I'm a shit driver even with a controller so no -1000 and if we did we do get punished if its constant wage garnish i think  

AMEN BROTHER +1

[SquirtleSquad]

2 hours ago, addybeta said:

If someone takes out the highspeeds tires, why do we accept the fact that the officer can go to a nearby precinct, and instantly pull out a fresh jugular? Does it get fixed or do they grab a new one? If they grab a new one, then how many jugulars do they have, because from what I know there are RPly only 2. Same goes with helicopters.

There wouldn't be RPly only two. You only see two in a pursuit due to IC protocols. Don't mix up protocols for what would be ICly. Same with Heli's.

[Spizor]

I genuinely don't understand the argument. It's not an "instant" respawn, we have limited stations for a reason. If anything, if my cruiser gets totaled at paleto, it'd be much easier for me to go get a repair at bayview than go all the way back to the city to get a new one. If a criminal decides to total my car in the city next to the station, tough luck, I have a station next to me where I can assign myself a new cruiser.

Criminals don't have a "timer" that they need to wait when they're using their high end cars to PIT, ram and block in pursuits. This is a non-issue that you are trying to turn into an issue. Nothing is imbalanced.

[Aldarine]

I do not understand how this has turned into an argument. 

OP is welcome to make a suggestion and give their explanations and how it can better the server. Others are welcome to respond back with thoughts in a polite and respectful way. We're not here to do this silly little crim vs leo dance or compare the two. Keep to topic or this will be locked.

That aside - OP, thanks for the suggestion. It is a great thought to bring forward and I for one do support some changes on the front of spawned vehicles. No department has a limitless stash of vehicles in perfect condition and replicating that sentiment in some capacity in this server can add to people valuing their vehicles and just making different decisions in the day to day.

[Demonmit1]

at the end of the day it doesnt matter what crims drive, or what crims can do, or strategies of crim vs leo. non law enforcement dont have a dozen places across the map they can just delete their car and spawn a new fresh one. if i wreck my car I have to go through the process of finding a mechanic on duty, requesting a repair from them, waiting in line if theres other people waiting, getting an invoice for the repair, waiting for the scripted timer of the repair and the RP of the mechanic, and then my car is in good condition again.

law enforcement completely avoid that and can just despawn/respawn their car instantly. while the department should cover the repair and not charge them for damage, they should not be able to instantly spawn in that exact same car when theirs gets damaged. that is the suggestion. 

1 hour ago, Spizor said:

Criminals don't have a "timer" that they need to wait

criminals have a 24 hour IRL timer to get their car back if they wreck it in a chase. as we can see, most law enforcement cant fathom a 10 minute timer for theirs.


if you want to instantly swap the type of cruiser, great! you can still do that under this suggestion. you have your cruiser you really really like drive but someone fucked it up and you dont want to lose access to it for a few minutes? you can solve that too, just go get it repaired at a mechanic shop.

Edited October 2, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Spizor]

The suggestion is categorizing two factions rather than a script change, that's why it's an argument.

There are many other factions that have the ability to spawn a vehicle as well like I mentioned in my first reply, but that got ignored.

[Demonmit1]

17 minutes ago, Spizor said:

There are many other factions that have the ability to spawn a vehicle as well like I mentioned in my first reply, but that got ignored.

factions that dont actively pursue and are against criminals have no need for this, as there's no requirements for that balance of play. entry level positions in non law enforcement factions that have vehicle spawning typically only have access to a single vehicle. entirely preventing Weazel / JB / Mechanics / EMS from doing their job would be dumb. Law enforcement is fine, cause even as a cadet, you have access to 14 different models of cruisers.

Edited October 2, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Spizor]

How come? The suggestion entails that damaged vehicles shouldn't have the ability to be respawned straight away. Should be the same for all, or don't make the change at all.