Enforce OOC JB time limits on trials

[Demonmit1]

 

 

TL;DR

If JB can't prove your guilty within a set timeframe, your case should be concluded in your favor and charges dropped. The extreme wait time for JB to do their faction duties has become so disruptive to the server that it needs to be handled on an OOC level.

Who is the suggestion for?

Every player on the server interacting with the judicial system, and member of Judicial Branch

Why is the suggestion being made?

The severe lack of progress in this vital legal faction on the server is drastically hurting players experience on the server.

What are the pros / cons?

Pros:

• players, both crim and legals, will have a significantly better experience on the server knowing that potential interaction with law enforcement won't royally fuck them over if the LEO player is having a bad day.
• Significantly speed up player trials to make them reasonable for people to follow along with and be involved.
• Force LEO factions and players to more carefully consider the charges they are placing, knowing that if it's not concrete, the charges can be dropped soon.
• no Dev work required.

Cons: 

• Pressure on JB faction members potentially causing burnout / overwork 
  • LEO's could potentially get more involved in the prosecution process to provide more manpower?
• Potential for crim players to flood the faction with every charge they receive. Would need to find a way to limit/moderate that.
  • potentially deny players from contesting citations and petty charges - Ranger
• Defendants could abuse the system delaying their own response to push the trail closer to the time required to attempt to get charges dropped. Would need a reasonable way to moderate/limit that.
  • defendants who are not actively participating in their cases could have their case closed against them if they fail to be active, respond, and be reasonably available for the trial

How should the suggestion be implemented?

Faction management needs to put strict OOC deadlines for the Judicial Branch factions to process cases.

 

The problem:

The Judicial Branch faction from an outside perspective is a dying/on life support faction, that it's inability to perform faction duties is significantly disrupting players time, experience and enjoyment of the server. There are cases that are coming up to nearly a year since they were filed, and haven't had a single comment or update in over two months.

Players charged with crimes are expected to file a case for defending themselves within a week of the crime, but are looking at 8-12 months of real life time to get a conclusion. People either give up and just deal with it, or quit before their case comes up for review.

Law enforcement players are currently in a position to be the judge, jury, and executioner with how the server works, you get the charge, do the prison time, and then try and fight the charge after. While I understand that this is more or less required for the legal system in the server to function, many players are frustrated with the system, seeing law enforcement as abusing the system to stack charges, apply additional flimsy charges or just corruptly apply charges on players knowing that there's no reasonable way to defend your character within a reasonable time.

 

The solution:

I understand that a lot of this could be considered to be entirely on an IC level, but the effects this is having on the server are so severe that it needs to be addressed and fixed on an OOC level, and the faction management team really needs to make an effort here. 

I know the issues surrounding the judicial branch faction are complex, it's not a RP many people are interested in contributing too, and it's a lot of work to make the faction function, but at some point there needs to be expectations to follow.

My idea to help solve some of the issues, from a player perspective that's not involved with the judicial branch faction, is have an OOC enforced time limit for trials to be handled. The specific time range is not for me to decide, but somewhere between 30 and 90 days would seem reasonable. If the case is not active, activated, and at least close to being resolved within the time limit, all charges should be dropped. If JB and law enforcement are unable to prove their case within a reasonable timeframe, the case should be dropped. Yes, this should be an IC thing, but it's so disruptive to the players on the server that it needs to be handled on an OOC level. 
 

^ this is a very interesting solution I really like the sound of as well, very much worth a look

Edited July 9, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Eliza]

+1, waited 11 months on an indictment on my character just to be found not guilty

[britbritxo]

huge +1. You should not be waiting almost a year for this RP to occur. 

[Adam_Kippling]

+1 

 

Literally had a cop tell me “You can wait 7 months to see if JB will agrees with the charges”

 

The whole JB process needs an overhaul 

[Demonmit1]

If you can't prove that someone was guilty in a couple weeks then there was not enough RP done to justify the charges placed. Should be considered borderline non-RP to place charges like that.

[AmiCath]

+1

[Ranger]

As a precursor, please keep in mind I've never been a part of the SAJB faction and only know how it works from an outside perspective so there may be some shit takes in what I typed. I hold zero intentions to make assumptions and/or accusatory comments towards SAJB or any faction members (hopefully nothing I said insinuates that). If you know me, you know that I'm extremely open to being informed on things I may inadvertently misconstrue or misunderstand.

TL;DR (too lazy, didn't read) at the bottom.

Somewhat experiencing how SAJB works from a second-hand perspective, I think they do the best they can in terms of actually working on the case(s) they receive, the issue that I've seemed to notice is the availability to schedule a trial whether it be Judge's availability or players being unable to make the trial at the same time as another player/member of JB, or there being more cases than what can be handled by the limited number of faction members.

A small change that I believe would make a large impact would be disallowing petty charges (anything under a felony/serious misdemeanor (this is a rough idea, I don't have a list in mind)) from being appealable may help with clutter in cases/an influx of cases. An example of this is reckless operation charges; this citation/charge is not character-altering in the slightest, the worst that'll happen is a possible license suspension and/or a denial from DCC due to their vehicle-related crime policies for employees. Charges like this that do not majorly affect a player's experience (job opportunities) on the server shouldn't be entertained as it just takes up time and energy that could otherwise be spent on cases like Herrman Wolff's or Cyrus Raven's where they have had serious repercussions for their characters due to the charges they received.

The only OOC "change" I think would be nice with SAJB's processes (if this is not already a thing) is that if a player is banned or holds more than 30 days of inactivity on the server (character inactivity or overall) the case should be closed for OOC inactivity.

My perspective on this isn't one of "JB needs to be reworked", because I do think that JB's processes work and the faction has its efficiencies, but I more hold the opinion that I believe JB RP is some of the most niche, unique, interesting, and deep RP that happens on the server and it'd be nice to see more cases or a way to get these things sped up whether it's an established timeline for cases to be concluded/open or disallowing petty cases from being opened.

TL;DR - In my opinion, SAJB is working as fine as it can be, they just need to create a list of charges that cannot be appealed through the courts (citations/nuisance misdemeanors) to help prevent multi-month backlogs in cases. If a player is banned, or holds more than 30 days of inactivity, their case should be closed for OOC reasons. Cases being open for a year shouldn't be a thing.

[Xoza]

JB has a manpower issue, this would fall on JB primarily. I do agree however that, like a time to complete, there should be an expiry time of which it is 'uncontested'.

With a completed case, JB and the LEO department would internally issues disciplinary action, announcements and others, as well as the record cleared and compensation issued. But if it is closed without completion or uncontested, none of this would happen, except the crime itself being expunged, there would likely be no compensation, nor disciplinary action.

[Demonmit1]

51 minutes ago, Ranger said:

I think they do the best they can in terms of actually working on the case(s) they receive

100% agreed, JB is a unique tough job in the server.

51 minutes ago, Ranger said:

players being unable to make the trial at the same time as another player/member of JB

if you're unable to keep up with your own trial, that should fall onto the defendant to deal with. like i said in my list of potential cons, there could be issues with defendants intentionally stalling to get the case closed in their favor without a judgement. that's something that can be handled by a judge to determine.

51 minutes ago, Ranger said:

disallowing petty charges

there are seven active cases, two would be considered petty, the other five are felony
all 10 pending cases are felony
of the 68 received cases, only 16 in my opinion are petty. the rest are more serious misdemeanors and felonies.
I dont think the issue is people flooding the faction with petty cases, as the majority are not petty cases. i do think that might be a solution if this gets implemented, that petty cases could be thrown out or not allowed, to prevent flooding the faction.

51 minutes ago, Ranger said:

if a player is banned or holds more than 30 days of inactivity on the server (character inactivity or overall) the case should be closed for OOC inactivity.

100% agreed, i actually believe this is already a thing to an extent ICly. JB faction members reach out to players ICly through email to check in if their still actively wanting to follow through with the case.
 

51 minutes ago, Ranger said:

The only OOC "change"

The problem is even though this is an IC issue, it has big repercussions on an OOC level, the extremely slow responses to contesting charges has a noticeable negative impact on the players. There needs to be something done from an OOC side of it to force a faction to perform its faction duties, when its required ICly to be done in a timely manner --> In all criminal trials brought forth by or too the San Andreas Judicial Branch, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial
8-12 months IRL is not that, and there needs to be a fix to the current system. like i said, If you can't prove that someone was guilty in a couple weeks then there was not enough RP done to justify the charges placed. that should be pretty simple to implement, and then it would be on the Judicial Branch faction to handle ICly, and recruit, or they'll start having to let charges slide. There needs to be a change that positively affects the average player on the server, which i believe this type of change will.

Edited July 5, 2024 by Demonmit1

[XxTheIrishGuyxX]

+1. I believe something needs to be changed. JB is supposed to be part of the checks and balances of power. However, as stated above police don't care and knowingly place excessive or in correct charges because they know it will take 8 months to a year to go through JB. Therefore, the current system is not efficient, and something needs to be changed. It is a tricky situation; you push JB to hard and they will get burnt out, and we go back to where we started. I have two suggestions that I believe will help out and speed up the court times, and will not be to taxing on JB. 

My first suggestion is that you have hard deadlines for cases, that I believe are reasonable. (For disclosure, I have zero clue how the current court system operates): Under this system, the timeline would be 56 days from being charged to case closure. 

1. Once a person is arrested, they have 5 days to file for an appeal. After the 5 days they are out of luck. 
2. The state aka prosecution then has 7 days to present all evidence. If the state does not present the evidence in this timeframe the defendant is not guilty. 
3. There will then be a period of 30 days for motions, arguments, updates, etc.
4. After the 30 days is up, the court has to A) schedule a trial or B) Issue a verdict, IE drop the case in the defendant's favor.
5. If a trial is picked, you have 14 days to schedule a trial. You can reschedule a trail once. Once a trial is scheduled, the trial must happen. If the state does not appear to the trail, the defendant will be not guilty. If the defendant does not show up, he/she will be guilty. In both cases the prosecution or defendant must prove they were in game during the trial time. 

My second suggestion is that that every case should be assigned at least 2 judges, 2 prosecuting attorneys, and 2 defense attorneys (if the defendant does not self-represent). From what I have seen, most of the delays have come to LOA's and inactivities. With this If you have someone who is on LOA, the other person will still continue. It is unrealistic to have multiple judges on a case, but I believe it is needed, and it is one of the times when you must choose the fun side, when you look at realism vs in game. 

 

Edited July 6, 2024 by XxTheIrishGuyxX

[Cup]

 

I cant see a universe where JB not being able to respond to your appeal fast enough is going to become a get out of jail free card. 

[alexalex303]

Instead of going in such a drastic direction, perhaps a more constructive approach is to contact the leader of JB with your suggestions/concerns and see if they have anything in the works to satisfy you. Alternatively, you can also reach out to legal faction management with your concerns. Things do happen behind the scenes and I don't think anyone is happy with the current speed of JB, but, it is rather in-depth roleplay and not everyone wishes to partake in it, therefore, there are member shortages.

[David Coast]

Hey! I've been apart of JB since December (with a slight break because.. you know)

Now, I understand the frustration with people having their cases take a long time; trust me I see it a lot. However, this is not the solution this will just add to the problems. Creating a OOC limit on a trial will either do 2 things.

1. Kill the Judicial Branch
2. Make JB a get out of jail free card (as Cup said)

We all want our cases to go faster, me included. So to make you understand a little more let me explain the steps of a trial for you. 

• A person files a case 
• A judge files a notice of receipt
• A judge activates that case; when they're next in line
• A defense attorney and a prosecuting attorney signs up to that case
• A judge files an order for discovery 
• Prosecution files its discovery (within 7 days)
• Defense has 3 days to file any motions and discovery. 
• Those motions will be finalized, if made. This can take the biggest chunk of time. (Back and forth with the attorneys, Judges making decisions, If any party disagrees with the decision made by the judge (pretty common) it will be taken to the court of appeals)
• The Judge will file a notice of scheduling
• The defendant, the Judge, the defense attorney and the prosecuting attorney will all have to agree on time. (This can also be difficult, we have members from all across the world)
• The case will go to trial
• A verdict will be posted

Now, that's just in general. The prosecution has a lot of internal things they have to do same with the defense. The prosecution has to contact either LSSD or LSPD asking for all the evidence against the person filing against the charges. The prosecution then has to wait for those LEO's to write witness statements, hand over arrest reports and give any other evidence. 

The defense have to reach out to the defendant and make sure they want to carry on with their case if so then arrange a meeting. The defense then has to gather evidence also to benefit the client, statements and any other evidence.

So, we are waiting on 4 people constantly (defendant, judge, prosecutor, defense), these people have IRL lives and this is a videogame. We are also waiting on any witnesses and players who were involved. This can range from 1-10 people. 

Now lets go over a few things said in this thread, That I personally believe don't make much sense.

 

On 7/6/2024 at 7:27 PM, XxTheIrishGuyxX said:

My second suggestion is that that every case should be assigned at least 2 judges, 2 prosecuting attorneys, and 2 defense attorneys (if the defendant does not self-represent). From what I have seen, most of the delays have come to LOA's and inactivities. With this If you have someone who is on LOA, the other person will still continue. It is unrealistic to have multiple judges on a case, but I believe it is needed, and it is one of the times when you must choose the fun side, when you look at realism vs in game. 

Sadly, we really only have 1/2 active judges who take on superior court cases (We have 76 pending cases). We have 2 defense attorneys, and the prosecution is set up really well due to good leadership. Most of delays happen because of slow replies from people (understandable, its a game). 
 

On 7/6/2024 at 7:27 PM, XxTheIrishGuyxX said:

1. Once a person is arrested, they have 5 days to file for an appeal. After the 5 days they are out of luck. 
2. The state aka prosecution then has 7 days to present all evidence. If the state does not present the evidence in this timeframe the defendant is not guilty. 
3. There will then be a period of 30 days for motions, arguments, updates, etc.
4. After the 30 days is up, the court has to A) schedule a trial or B) Issue a verdict, IE drop the case in the defendant's favor.
5. If a trial is picked, you have 14 days to schedule a trial. You can reschedule a trail once. Once a trial is scheduled, the trial must happen. If the state does not appear to the trail, the defendant will be not guilty. If the defendant does not show up, he/she will be guilty. In both cases the prosecution or defendant must prove they were in game during the trial time. 

This is very close to what actually happens, now it may take 56 days in theory. However, lets take into account that there is 76 cases. We can't do them all at once, we don't have the manpower for that.
 

On 7/5/2024 at 9:43 PM, Demonmit1 said:

If you can't prove that someone was guilty in a couple weeks then there was not enough RP done to justify the charges placed. that should be pretty simple to implement, and then it would be on the Judicial Branch faction to handle ICly, and recruit, or they'll start having to let charges slide. There needs to be a change that positively affects the average player on the server, which i believe this type of change will.

Well, actually the prosecution normally does prove your guilty in a couple weeks. However, they don't provide the evidence until the case is actually going to trial. We don't take a while because we can't prove your guilt, we take a while because we have 76 people wanting to prove their innocent, 76 people who want a defense to that guilt.

 

 

On 7/5/2024 at 9:02 PM, Ranger said:

The only OOC "change" I think would be nice with SAJB's processes (if this is not already a thing) is that if a player is banned or holds more than 30 days of inactivity on the server (character inactivity or overall) the case should be closed for OOC inactivity.

TL;DR - In my opinion, SAJB is working as fine as it can be, they just need to create a list of charges that cannot be appealed through the courts (citations/nuisance misdemeanors) to help prevent multi-month backlogs in cases. If a player is banned, or holds more than 30 days of inactivity, their case should be closed for OOC reasons. Cases being open for a year shouldn't be a thing.

So, defense does have a system in place similar to the one your describing at the top. A defense attorney will reach out to the defendant asking if they want to continue with their case (a discord message is sent also, along the lines of an email emoji). The normal rule was if they don't respond OOCly or ICly within 3 days, we drop the case. However this has been since reworked up to a week, due to people already waiting a while we don't want to take valued RP from them. 

So what you're saying about "a list" would work in theory, yet this could be easily abused. This would mean that you could go to jail for e.g Reckless and have no chance to argue that charge. Which is totally unfair on crims and legals alike. However, something is in the works which should be released fairly soon that will focus more on getting rid of this backlog of "petty charges". 
 

On 7/5/2024 at 7:43 PM, Demonmit1 said:

 

• Pressure on JB faction members potentially causing burnout / overwork 
  • LEO's could potentially get more involved in the prosecution process to provide more manpower?

Prosecution is the most efficient thing I've ever witnessed on this server. Before you say I'm tooting my own horn, I have nothing to do with prosecution and never had; they are my rival. Prosecution is the only thing that in JB that in my opinion works flawlessly, This could be due to good members in that division alongside good leadership in general. 

 

On 7/5/2024 at 7:43 PM, Demonmit1 said:

 

The problem:

The Judicial Branch faction from an outside perspective is a dying/on life support faction, that it's inability to perform faction duties is significantly disrupting players time, experience and enjoyment of the server. There are cases that are coming up to nearly a year since they were filed, and haven't had a single comment or update in over two months.

Players charged with crimes are expected to file a case for defending themselves within a week of the crime, but are looking at 8-12 months of real life time to get a conclusion. People either give up and just deal with it, or quit before their case comes up for review.

Law enforcement players are currently in a position to be the judge, jury, and executioner with how the server works, you get the charge, do the prison time, and then try and fight the charge after. While I understand that this is more or less required for the legal system in the server to function, many players are frustrated with the system, seeing law enforcement as abusing the system to stack charges, apply additional flimsy charges or just corruptly apply charges on players knowing that there's no reasonable way to defend your character within a reasonable time.

It seems your problem isn't with JB.. You're saying the Judicial Branch is "significantly disrupting players time, experience and enjoyment of the server." by not performing its faction duties, Yet then you go on about the how the reason is  "law enforcement as abusing the system to stack charges, apply additional flimsy charges or just corruptly apply charges on players knowing".

Now, I believe your misjudged as someone who (to my knowledge) hasn't spent time in a LEO faction. The one time I stacked charges on my SD character, A sergeant and a captain called me to the station, shouted at me and removed some of the charges. 

I have spent time, playing crim, playing an LEO and also playing an attorney. I'm certain that if you believe a LEO is "corruptly appling charges" and you file an OOC IA on that LEO, that he will be reprimanded.

I've seen it from all angles. I've seen people get away with charges due to lack of evidence before they've spent time in prison, I've been let go before I've been sent to prison. I've been a victim and a suspect when it comes to charge stacking.

I just believe your mixing up charge stacking and getting charges with crimes that you did do. They do "charge stack" in real life and also in real life you don't have a maximum of 3 hours in jail. 

I hope this has shed some light onto your suggestion, if you have any questions or problems about what I've feel free to reach out to me via discord (.kujima)

Edited July 8, 2024 by David Coast

[David Coast]

17 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

Instead of going in such a drastic direction, perhaps a more constructive approach is to contact the leader of JB with your suggestions/concerns and see if they have anything in the works to satisfy you. Alternatively, you can also reach out to legal faction management with your concerns. Things do happen behind the scenes and I don't think anyone is happy with the current speed of JB, but, it is rather in-depth roleplay and not everyone wishes to partake in it, therefore, there are member shortages.

Thank you, I completely agree with everything you've said.

[Sigma]

+1 This is probs the reason I get told " bring it to court if you dont agree with the charges " after being wrongfully charges cos they know full well no one will bother because of how unnecessarily time consuming it is. 

[Ranger]

4 hours ago, David Coast said:

So, defense does have a system in place similar to the one your describing at the top. A defense attorney will reach out to the defendant asking if they want to continue with their case (a discord message is sent also, along the lines of an email emoji). The normal rule was if they don't respond OOCly or ICly within 3 days, we drop the case. However this has been since reworked up to a week, due to people already waiting a while we don't want to take valued RP from them. 

So what you're saying about "a list" would work in theory, yet this could be easily abused. This would mean that you could go to jail for e.g Reckless and have no chance to argue that charge. Which is totally unfair on crims and legals alike. However, something is in the works which should be released fairly soon that will focus more on getting rid of this backlog of "petty charges". 

Good to hear about the "reach out" thing, I had heard about it from someone but was unsure if it was a "proper" thing or just one of those "yeah I do that sometimes" things.

As for what you mentioned about charges, this is valid, it's a tricky thing to balance as a reckless could ruin someone's RP but not affect another person's.

[Harveyyy]

I agree with Ranger.

[Dola]

On 7/5/2024 at 9:04 PM, Xoza said:

JB has a manpower issue, this would fall on JB primarily. I do agree however that, like a time to complete, there should be an expiry time of which it is 'uncontested'.

With a completed case, JB and the LEO department would internally issues disciplinary action, announcements and others, as well as the record cleared and compensation issued. But if it is closed without completion or uncontested, none of this would happen, except the crime itself being expunged, there would likely be no compensation, nor disciplinary action.

if manpower is an issue maybe significantly increase the money JB players make which may influence more players to take this route?

id love to see more JB rp in the server!

Edited July 8, 2024 by Dola

[Quietthecutie]

I worked for JB for about 6 months so ill try to shed some light on the major issues you see in both the slowness of cases being finished and in retention/recruitment of staff:

1. Its a job very few players are interested in doing.

What do JB members do when they are clocked on? mostly spend their time tabbed out on the gov website, responding to emails, moving cases along if they can, things like that. now even on your busiest day out of court, there wont be enough of that to even fill an hour of game time and even if there was, its mostly boring and tedious paperwork for the sake of realism. Occasionally you will get some sort of Op where a defence lawyer meets with a defendant or a prosecuting attorney will meet with law enforcement but these are rare and usually over email also. you could pay a JB lawyer 10k an hour it wouldn't matter because no amount of money would motivate you to do this. If youve ever thought to yourself "huh i barely see any JB on ever." that's because most of us would just keep up with our gov paperwork without even logging into the game.

Now, when all the ducks are lined up and the time has finally come to go to court, JB can be alot of fun! some of the best RP ive seen on the server were tense battles in the court where no one watching actually knew which way the judge would swing. but getting to that point is so hard. because.....

2. Serious Integration problems

Why does a case take 11 months to go to trial? Integration or a lack thereof between various departments internal and external. JB has extremely limited access to information from other departments like DOC/MD/PD/SD. so when the judge orders a motion for discovery (basically the judge telling the prosecutor to go get all the evidence to prove the crime was committed.) The lawyer basically gets on his email, writes one off to PD/SD sometimes both. PD/SD have to then dig through their records to find the correct arrest report/case file/ evidence locker etc and get all that information back to the prosecution, usually with an accompanying witness statement that they have to write too. and PD/SD have no motivation to do this quickly. typically discovery can last a week but you can always get that extended and ive seen them last a month.

Now, that is just for discovery. there are alot of different motions that can be set up and each one requires an email to be sent, a response to come back and a decision to be made. Players go on leave, players go inactive, sometimes everyone's schedules just dont line up. some cases are extremely complex and the back and forth on every motion can go on for MONTHS. now, in reality, if everyone was sat down in the same room together ic, you could knock that out in an afternoon. but thats not the case. and its the waiting for a reply that kills ya. which leads me to....

3. JB players have nothing to do.

Alright I know there's gonna be alot of "if they have nothing to do why is my case taking so long." see point 2 for that. Its not that JB are overworked or even seriously understaffed to be honest. its because the system that JB use is based on realism. and realistically court cases do take months/years to complete. and again most of that time is just spent waiting on someone else to deliver something to you or for a decision to be made. Theres very little for you to do.

When you think of the minute to minute gameplay for each faction, PD/SD chase crims and fight crime, MD saves lives, Mechanics fix cars, DOC look after inmates, what does JB have to do on a minute to minute level? absolutely nothing. once you've checked your emails and replied there is nothing for you to do but wait, and most of the time to log off/play an alt. VERY occasionally you will get a call from DOC about someone asking for a lawyer but honestly that might happen once or twice a week, and even when it does, that requires a defence attorney to be clocked on and DOC being willing to let the interview happen. its moby dick rare.

 

TLDR;

So, we have a job where the employees are rarely clocked on because they can do most of their work tabbed out on the government website, a system that has so many checks and balances in place that the wait for replies and scheduling means that cases take months to conclude, and a department that is bored out of their head when physically clocked on.

Is there anything worth salvaging in this?


***THE NUCELAR OPTION***

Cut JB down to the absolute bare bones in terms of realism. Lose the facade of realistic criminal cases and paperwork in favour of a more Judge Judy style of kangaroo court that can be organised and executed in a matter of days instead of months.

The Pros:

-because the wait time is massively reduced, basically every case where the prosecution has received the arrest report is ready to go. we dont go through discovery or supression on the docket, that will now happen in the trial itself. if either side wants something suppressed they object to it on the spot and the decision is made on the spot, not in 7-10 IRL days time. 

-JB Will become relevant again. most people dont bother with JB anymore because they cant be arsed waiting. with the wait time cut to inside a week, suddenly JB will have an influx of cases, meaning they have more stuff to do in the city, but less paperwork weighing them down. more interaction, less time spent tabbed out on the gov website.

-More time in the courts! the actual fun part of JB is during trial. with more things having to be settled in court instead of on the docket trials will become less of a rehearsed back and forth with the occasional objection, and more like "reality" tv courts where theres more back and forth, more gavel banging and more fun. both the lawyers and the judges will have to think more on their feet because of this.

The Cons:

-JB will end up being less realistic. I think that is unavoidable as the attempt at realism is what has slowed everything down to a snails pace. there will be less docket work and less realistic due process.

- Anyone expecting JB to be a source of IC justice should rethink their expectations. JB would become and honestly always should be a source for RP, not an internal reports system. honestly anyone operating as a judge or lawyer should have mammoth amounts of leeway when it comes to making decisions and strategy, and I don't care how realistic it is, I don't care if your case strategy is based on a feverdream fanfic between saul goodman, jerry springer and lionel hutz. so long as its fun the decision shouldn't matter. 

OK this has been a good hours worth of writing im just gonna leave this here for now.



 

Edited July 8, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[Soupiestfork]

On 7/5/2024 at 1:43 PM, Demonmit1 said:

 

 

TL;DR

If JB can't prove your guilty within a set timeframe, your case should be concluded in your favor and charges dropped. The extreme wait time for JB to do their faction duties has become so disruptive to the server that it needs to be handled on an OOC level.

Who is the suggestion for?

Every player on the server interacting with the judicial system, and member of Judicial Branch

Why is the suggestion being made?

The severe lack of progress in this vital legal faction on the server is drastically hurting players experience on the server.

What are the pros / cons?

Pros:

• players, both crim and legals, will have a significantly better experience on the server knowing that potential interaction with law enforcement won't royally fuck them over if the LEO player is having a bad day.
• Significantly speed up player trials to make them reasonable for people to follow along with and be involved.
• Force LEO factions and players to more carefully consider the charges they are placing, knowing that if it's not concrete, the charges can be dropped soon.
• no Dev work required.

Cons: 

• Pressure on JB faction members potentially causing burnout / overwork 
  • LEO's could potentially get more involved in the prosecution process to provide more manpower?
• Potential for crim players to flood the faction with every charge they receive. Would need to find a way to limit/moderate that.
  • potentially deny players from contesting citations and petty charges - Ranger
• Defendants could abuse the system delaying their own response to push the trail closer to the time required to attempt to get charges dropped. Would need a reasonable way to moderate/limit that.
  • defendants who are not actively participating in their cases could have their case closed against them if they fail to be active, respond, and be reasonably available for the trial

How should the suggestion be implemented?

Faction management needs to put strict OOC deadlines for the Judicial Branch factions to process cases.

 

The problem:

The Judicial Branch faction from an outside perspective is a dying/on life support faction, that it's inability to perform faction duties is significantly disrupting players time, experience and enjoyment of the server. There are cases that are coming up to nearly a year since they were filed, and haven't had a single comment or update in over two months.

Players charged with crimes are expected to file a case for defending themselves within a week of the crime, but are looking at 8-12 months of real life time to get a conclusion. People either give up and just deal with it, or quit before their case comes up for review.

Law enforcement players are currently in a position to be the judge, jury, and executioner with how the server works, you get the charge, do the prison time, and then try and fight the charge after. While I understand that this is more or less required for the legal system in the server to function, many players are frustrated with the system, seeing law enforcement as abusing the system to stack charges, apply additional flimsy charges or just corruptly apply charges on players knowing that there's no reasonable way to defend your character within a reasonable time.

 

The solution:

I understand that a lot of this could be considered to be entirely on an IC level, but the effects this is having on the server are so severe that it needs to be addressed and fixed on an OOC level, and the faction management team really needs to make an effort here. 

I know the issues surrounding the judicial branch faction are complex, it's not a RP many people are interested in contributing too, and it's a lot of work to make the faction function, but at some point there needs to be expectations to follow.

My idea to help solve some of the issues, from a player perspective that's not involved with the judicial branch faction, is have an OOC enforced time limit for trials to be handled. The specific time range is not for me to decide, but somewhere between 30 and 90 days would seem reasonable. If the case is not active, activated, and at least close to being resolved within the time limit, all charges should be dropped. If JB and law enforcement are unable to prove their case within a reasonable timeframe, the case should be dropped. Yes, this should be an IC thing, but it's so disruptive to the players on the server that it needs to be handled on an OOC level. 

+1

[Clank]

I think the common misconception a lot of people in the thread have is that "JB need to prove people guilty or it should automatically be reversed" this mindset clouding everyone's judgement. These aren't your typical criminal case bench trials. You were ALREADY found guilty. You are APPEALING your guilty sentence. 

 

The burden of proof in an appeal is on the defendant. You are to prove yourself innocent as you were already found guilty, hence the phrase "appeal".

Edited July 9, 2024 by Clank

[Soupiestfork]

2 minutes ago, Clank said:

I think the common misconception a lot of people in the thread have is that "JB need to prove people guilty or it should automatically be reversed" this mindset clouding everyone's judgement. These aren't your typical criminal case bench trials. You were ALREADY found guilty. You are APPEALING your guilty sentence. 

 

The burden of proof in an appeal is on the defendant. You are to prove yourself innocent as you were already found guilty, hence the phrase "appeal".

That isn't true though. There's no due process other than the arresting officer's discretion which is often missing context and/or is clouded. Literally nobody who has ever gone to DOC has been found guilty of anything.

[Clank]

4 minutes ago, Soupiestfork said:

That isn't true though. There's no due process other than the arresting officer's discretion which is often missing context and/or is clouded. Literally nobody who has ever gone to DOC has been found guilty of anything.

Because that is how our legal system is set up. They are called appeals for a reason. The due process IS your character being arrested, you are entitled to an appeal if you think you are not guilty but that is an APPEAL. You are an appellate.

(source: I was on the government development team)

 

Do I want there to be bench trials before someone is prisoned? Hell yeah! Do I believe a lot of things need to change? Yeah.

 

Edited July 9, 2024 by Clank

[Colt]

2 hours ago, Clank said:

I think the common misconception a lot of people in the thread have is that "JB need to prove people guilty or it should automatically be reversed" this mindset clouding everyone's judgement. These aren't your typical criminal case bench trials. You were ALREADY found guilty. You are APPEALING your guilty sentence. 

 

The burden of proof in an appeal is on the defendant. You are to prove yourself innocent as you were already found guilty, hence the phrase "appeal".

This is not true.

(source: I made the current Judicial system)

Everything I am about to say might change soon pending devs, there has been a fix in the works for sometime that is only pending implementation, some already know of this due to it being teased in ECRP general discord. (This fix I'm referring to: https://discord.com/channels/229240178441584645/229240178441584645/1175116106596352021

The current system operates as follows: When someone is arrested, they serve their time immediately. They have 7 days to file a case with the superior court. If they do not file a case within this period, they are automatically found guilty of the charges. If they do file a case, the charges remain pending until the case is resolved. Although they have already served their time for the charges, they are compensated at a rate of $200 per minute if found not guilty, and any fines paid are reimbursed.

In criminal cases, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. Archived cases show numerous instances where the prosecution failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused committed the crimes, resulting in not guilty verdicts. In these cases, the defense did not focus on proving the defendant's innocence but instead concentrated on exposing inconsistencies in the prosecution's narrative, thereby creating the reasonable doubt necessary for a not guilty verdict.

 

Edit: To answer your edit, it is not an appeal, appeals are handled in the Court of Appeals and result from a Superior Court case. Cases start in the Superior Court (Criminal and eventually Civil) and you are a defendant as stated in every single piece of information put out through our court system stating such. A very well put together topic covering this can be found here: https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/viewtopic.php?t=100738

Edited July 9, 2024 by Colt

[Bala]

Normally, I write a full on essay as a response to these things but I can answer this succinctly.
Either we have a way to make the Judicial Branch work efficiently for the server that we have, or we do the right thing and close it.

This was never an avenue of roleplay that suits the player-base of Eclipse and while we will have a minority of players that engage and enjoy it, we do not have the player base nor the depth of quality roleplay to ensure it's an interesting experience.

Rightly or wrongly, it's only useful for the criminally accused when it functions as a get out of jail free card and that only works when that freedom is in a reasonably short time-frame, not months on end. For law enforcement, it's just made doing the job more unnecessarily complicated and added a bunch of stuff that takes away from the more entertaining aspects of police roleplay in Eclipse.

I respect the efforts of people like Colt, Judith, Hope and everyone else involved in trying to make this work and there have been times where it has, but they are too few and far between for a multitude of reasons.

For me, the only way this can successfully work moving forward is to pick the highest profile cases and basically turn them into in-character role-play court events. Those situations where there are significant consequences and high-stakes, which involve a large number of people. 

Cases like the Andy Tyrie or Vince Williams or Mike Luigi. These are the cases that are useful to have that sort of stage. Not whether John_Smith actually murdered two people six months ago. You just focus on these big time cases and you keep the case load low but you maximize the end result.

Edited July 9, 2024 by Bala