Enforce OOC JB time limits on trials

[Soupiestfork]

On 7/17/2024 at 9:30 PM, Bala said:

@Quietthecutie This thread is not about criminals v. cops for me. It's about a system that was shoehorned into a server that doesn't know how to do it effectively and making it an important part of the process. If a limb turns gangrenous, you amputate, you don't leave it to spread.

Other servers do court role-play and they do it better. That tells me one of two things. Either we do not have the sort of player base that can fully appreciate it or we do not have the individuals with the foresight to creatively tailor the system to the server, rather than the server to the system.

It's not about cops or criminals winning decisions. It's about having confidence that a third party is going to reach an impartial and correct outcome, in a reasonable time-frame. Because anything other than that, has negative implications for a server that always wants the next thing.

@Soupiestfork Reading is important. I didn't claim that mistakes do not happen, but at the same time, our Internal Affairs divisions do not fuck about when it comes to correcting mistakes. It doesn't take them months to arrive at a conclusion.

In terms of metrics of mistakes, as I said, PD and SD are arresting like two dozen people a day, seven days a week with multiple officers arresting those people. There are going to be discrepancies but it's not indicative of any sort of corruption or even that it is a widespread issue that urgently needs solving.

What is wrong with trusting people with 4-6 years of experience of policing on ECRP? Surely, if experience is a valued commodity, those individuals would be the richest ones. You think that Silky or Pazz or myself or whoever in the LSPD wants people getting the wrong charges? Fuck no.

@tigerpet15 You know, there would probably be more time for basic field investigations if we weren't playing paperwork helper on the off chance JB is going to pick up a case or that we were playing evidence handler simulator in the storage cupboard.

We might be more inclined to spend more time on a seat if there was more support for investigative roleplay too or if they people we interact with are able to give us more detail than just a three word /do or yelling into their microphone about how they are innocent. We cannot charge based on anything the script doesn't prove or that we don't personally witness either.

We have to do what we can, with what we have available and then it's onto the next one. There simply isn't the time or the support for CSI: Los Santos.

How do you fix JB?
- You take a hammer to it. If there is something high profile, you can take it and run with it, as a server event otherwise you wrap it up within a week or two and move onto the next thing. The Mike Luigi and Hermann Wolff things are like Game of Thrones Season 8 at this point, when if they were finished after Season 6, they'd have been masterpieces.

You act dismissive and disrespectful and then act shocked when you get the same. It may surprise you but I'm not 'out to get you'. I'm genuinely trying to make things work better and you seem to be the only one who thinks kaiboshing the JB altogether is the way forward.

And there is tremendous amounts wrong with 'trusting' the police to *police themselves*. That -does not work-. And I don't think I need to get into why - it's evident.

Experience is valid, but so is a fresh perspective - which is one you lack. Plus, IA and JB are two different machines meant for two very different things.

I like JB. I think there's a place for JB. I'm not interested in you trying to monopolize the conversation. You've said your piece. Now can we please stick to the matter at hand.

Edited July 20, 2024 by Soupiestfork

[Soupiestfork]

On 7/18/2024 at 10:03 AM, Requiem said:

Please provide proof of this occurring. And if you or anyone else you know has said proof, did you report it or make a complaint to the proper group(s)? If this is a reality as you say it is, then there should be no issue getting some proof of it occurring. People can agree or disagree as much as they like, but facts are what matters. Please don't slander another group/faction due to opinions or rhetoric. Get the facts together and report them to either LFM/Law enforcement faction leadership for OOC concerns, or utilize the Internal Affairs complaint process for IC (or also OOC) concerns. 

I'm not sure how long you have been on the server, but JB was not in the server for a long time (only more recently was the group established). I joined this server back when there was no GOV or JB factions and police were judge, jury and executioner when it came to proving criminals guilty or innocent. And the system works fine for a long time. JB offers a lot of great roleplay opportunities and the people that put it together have put in a lot of good effort, but to say that JB is necessary because PD/SD cannot be trusted to be fair is false. 

This isn't slander. Every PvP faction has bad apples in them. All of them. I appreciate there are checks and balances to try to weed those out but let's be real. I *could* name names if I wanted to but I'm choosing not to, out of respect for those individuals and because I don't want to - as someone else put it - 'throw wild accusations around'.

As I've mentioned, we're organizing to report more aggressively as folks (like you in this case) try to silence or monopolize any discourse around the issue so there are fewer and fewer options for resolution available. Stay tuned; we're working on it.

Police being 'judge, jury, and executioner' is... distasteful and encourages bad behaviour.

Finally, to move back to the topic:

The best outcome - for the majority of players (most of which play crim) - would be a course correction for JB - not an outright dissolution.

Edited July 20, 2024 by Soupiestfork

[Demonmit1]

On 7/18/2024 at 10:03 AM, Requiem said:

Please provide proof of this occurring. And if you or anyone else you know has said proof, did you report it or make a complaint to the proper group(s)?

yep. and there has been no reply/update/anything since april from the initial report...

[Bala]

2 hours ago, Soupiestfork said:

You act dismissive and disrespectful and then act shocked when you get the same. It may surprise you but I'm not 'out to get you'. I'm genuinely trying to make things work better and you seem to be the only one who thinks kaiboshing the JB altogether is the way forward.

And there is tremendous amounts wrong with 'trusting' the police to *police themselves*. That -does not work-. And I don't think I need to get into why - it's evident.

Experience is valid, but so is a fresh perspective - which is one you lack. Plus, IA and JB are two different machines meant for two very different things.

I like JB. I think there's a place for JB. I'm not interested in you trying to monopolize the conversation. You've said your piece. Now can we please stick to the matter at hand.

When did I act shocked, lmao? It makes no difference if you are out to get me or not. As far as I'm aware, you're not one of those people leading JB and I know for sure you ain't one of the people leading PD or SD, so what is your experience of the process exactly? Do you have a criminal case pending? Were you previously in JB?

I got no issue with people in-character saying that we're untrustworthy, that's pretty normal. It's when people like you start saying it out of character that it looks really quite foolish. Because if you look at the PD and SD leaderships, quite a large portion of the community's higher administration are high up in these factions.  So, who exactly are we not trusting here? I have been disciplined and held to account by people like Pazz, Silky and Kris more than anyone else on this server. I have seen, experienced and been a part of holding our faction members to account consistently over the past four years.

Doesn't work, lmao. Someone has proof of wrongdoing = person gets punished, within a week.

Not only that, but these people have role-playing as cops on this server for half a decade or more at this point. Experience isn't just valid, it's essential. The reason why it's essential is because you not only understand what it is you are doing, you understand the server you are doing it for.

The reason I mention that is from the beginning JB hasn't had the depth of personnel necessary for it to be as important as it is to the server. It's the same with SAAA, SAAA has lacked the tools to be able to be functionally beneficial for the server.

My MO posting on here, is not to tell you how wrong you are. It is either for JB to change how it operates so that it is something more positive or we stop wedging it into the server and pretending everything is fine.

[David Coast]

https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/viewtopic.php?p=858009#p858009

[Soupiestfork]

On 7/20/2024 at 1:07 PM, Bala said:

I got no issue with people in-character saying that we're untrustworthy, that's pretty normal. It's when people like you start saying it out of character that it looks really quite foolish.

What I mean is I wouldn't trust ANY group who routinely engages in PvP to be their *own* check. I do not believe it makes sense to have members of PD/SD become the only authority to determine guilt/innocence especially considering how much power over a player's future they *already* have. To me, even suggesting that seems bizarre.

And since you asked, yeah. I went through FRD, and the various challenges and other negative things from certain individuals.

I went through JB and eventually managed to have a felony and misdemeanour removed from my character's record, something that would have ruined her career and destroyed most of the opportunities she's most interested in. It made for interesting RP, gave her a hell of a backstory, and also encouraged a lot of discussion around things I won't mention for respect of not wanting it to come off as an accusation.

I also worked adjacent to JB when I did PR for SAGOV, and was often liaising between civilians, LEOs, the "legally challenged", and by facilitating meetings and fielding questions, yeah. I got a lot of feedback and insight into some of what's going on.

Edited August 1, 2024 by Soupiestfork