Police department update

[tigerpet15]

THE POLICE DEPARTMENT UPDATE

Hello, Id like to point out the biggest issues I have with PD/SD. I play mainly on my criminal character so its gonna be mainly from a criminal point of view. Never the less I would love to hear LEOs opinions on things I am gonna point out. I am long enough on the server to appreciate any type of good roleplay and yeah I hate when I experience rolplay with someone who has win over RP mentality cause yeah idc about winning I want to have good RP experience. I also believe criminals recieved ton of updates recently and I think PD should get sort of overhall with upgrades for their RP.

THE ISSUES:

• The way LEOs guns works is unrealistic - it makes them less vulnerable cause they dont loose anything when they die what can increase the win over rp mentality because they can be in a shootout and when they die they dont put another guns on the street they just respown with new set of guns. Also criminals doesnt gain anything from fighting them (with reasonable rp cause) they just get away from a crime what is not worth it most of the times and that in my opinion kills rp.
• Unrealistic military grade weapons for normal units - I believe its really unrealistic to let basic units have military grade weapons. IRL the normal units have side armd and one shotgun in the trunk which has to be taken out before use (not having them on person and being free to use them anytime). I think military grade weapons should be for SWAT teams only which should be overpowered like IRL and should be called only to serious situations.
• Tasers
• Unrealistic use of police vehicles - Police vehicels because they have pit ram are often used unrealistically. Like crashing into suspects car with disregard for the vehicle demage (they can always spawn the new one) and their lives. Like performing a pit manuver at 200km/h is unrealistic and not RPing any injures from a crash is unrealistic too. I belive police chasess should be showdow of who is smarter (like placig spike strips) planning how to stop the suspect etc. and not a showdown of who can survive more crashes. 
• LEOs cars doesnt need repairs/fuel - I think LEOs/legal factions should work on 
• LEOs doesnt loose anything when the get killed what makes them fear less for their lives - Acording to previous point LEOs doesn loose any guns anything valuable when they die what promotes win over rp mentality. PDs IRL fear for their lifes its a dadngerous job and they should loose lot more than they do when they die. I think changing to PD guns phylosphy might help
• Detectives has too little space how to lead investigations - I think detectives have been quiet forgoten for last few years. And I think they can actually investigate using /ldos only when they do have IDs. What gives them more space for their investigations.
• Lack of actual dispatcher position

THE SOLUTIONS:

• Give detectives chance to access recent events of doors/cars/tools/was in the field of camera - I think detectives should be able to access a list of IDs who used doors/cars/tools/cameras to give them ability to RP with /ldos an investigations like IRL. It would promote a lot more RP and Id love to get arrested after thoughtful investigations/house raids etc. 
• Make LEOs loose their weapons when they die - I think when criminals kills cops they should be able to loot their weapons. I think it would make two things to happpen. Cops would be more careful about their operations with the risk of putting more guns on the street and it would promote other means of RP over shooting like deescalation techniques. Also I believe when there is a heated shootout between gangs cops should wait for the swat/numbers to arrive because that happens IRL 
• Let basic units have only sidearms (like IRL) and a shotgun in the trunk (with timer to get it out) - I think this change would add to realism, it would equal out the difference between criminals and basic cops and it would promote more rp over shooting (cops would have to plan out what to do and if they d meet criminals with bigger numbers they should try talking them selves out of the situations and not starting shooting with automatic weapons), also PDs should try to always deescalate situations instead of shooting and have them to plan their actions (making the smarter one "win" not the one with more guns). It would also equal out the gun differences between criminals and cops - making more planning RP promotes RP cops should always try to deescalate situation and not to shoot etc. Less weapons less shooting and more RP - cops having to play smart like deescalating etc. cause risk of loosing guns and when there are 10 gang members against two cops the shouldnt draw their weapons and shooting them disregarding fear for their lifes
• Make swat teams heavily armed but they would have a higher respond time (armored cars) to get to the scene - SWAT should be realistically the only heavily armed unit in the PD. They should have overkill weapons to stop any shootout etc. They exist for this reason. And they should differentiate from the normal units by the heavy weapons they have.
• Paying for lost guns
• Add a rule about realistic driving for LEOs - realistic pits, not crashing into suspects cars - I believe there should be little bit of tweaking of the driving rules for the LEOs to make it more realistic. I think there should be speed limit fro performing a pit manuver (like 120km/h) to make it safe for the driver being stoped and the cop preforming the manuver. I think there should be updated spike strips to make the easire to setup and to promote their use over the pit manuvers. I have experienced cops driving like crazy crashing their cars into the suspect like crazy with complete disregard for the property of the department and their lives. Honestly there is a rule against misusing expensive vehicles and think cops are given an too overpowered exception. This is kind of win over rp mentality which is worth fighting for changing.
• Disable "repairing cars" by despwaning the old one and spawning a new one - I think to add to the realism and roleplay the cop cars should spawn with 50% of fuel tank and the cops should refuel them selves like IRL (instead of spawning/despawning cars) and when they break their car they should call mechanic/go to mechanics workshop for a repair (adds on RP)
• Promote using only one car during the shift and not spawning despawning cars during chases/when they come to mission row (it doesnt work that way IRL) - I think there should be rule that officers would be able to spawn car in the begging of the shift and despawning it after the end. I think it would promote rp of higher command to control which units have which cars to have enough reach for high speed chases and off road chases. It d be fun to see that. Also I think parking police cars in front of PD instead of despawning the car would promote RP like actually someone stealing a cop car/spraypainting on the cop cars etc. 
• Add actual dispacher possition - basically the person/people in control of units which locations they should cruise, to be the people behind desk controlling which units should join chase etc. (probably for higher ranking officers).  Like having people overlooking all PD operations. Also this position should be deciding when an officer goes on duty which car is he gonna drive weather high speed/offroad etc. I think its unrealistic to replace it for the current system. So I think it d be reasonable to have the old sysstem during less active hours and the new dispatcher position during rush hours. Also it would be great to rp call with a dispatcher and it would heavily promote RP and realism.

CONCLUSION:

Id like to add that these suggestions would require careful tweeking to not make one side of the llwa too overpowered.

In the end Id like to point out that I want to hear your opinons (especially the PD ones :D) about there changes and your ideas which would you like to add. What PD actually needs to add to make their RP experience better. I will definetely update this post when something interesting comes up.

Thanks for reading

tigerpet15

[SquirtleSquad]

• Give detectives chance to access recent events of doors/cars/tools/was in the field of camera 

We already have this capability, however some things like vehicles, are scriptly limited, and require moderator+ intervention

• Make LEOs loose their weapons when they die 

No thank you, this just points to having more random shooting of cops on sight just for their weapons.

• Let basic units have only sidearms (like IRL) and a shotgun in the trunk (with timer to get it out)

I can tell you haven't played an LEO character yet. There are already IC protocols and procedures in place for this, that this is not necessary. No more timers.

• Make swat teams heavily armed but they would have a higher respond time (armored cars) to get to the scene 

They already are the only heavily armed division. However, they do not always play at all hours, which makes this kind of a moot point.

• Paying for lost guns

No thank you. If we are paying for our own guns, armor, etc, then we should be getting an MD kickback where every arrest we get a fixed amount. Every citation issues, we get a fixed amount. Every gun we collect, every count of drug we collect, we get a fixed amount. And all of this comes from the person we are arresting, like how the $500 comes from the Player when they are taken to the hospital. That's not going to happen, and people will get pissed off even more. LEO used to drop weapons before, and there was a reason this was removed and now weapons from official factions are locked.

• Add a rule about realistic driving for LEOs - realistic pits, not crashing into suspects cars

Again, showcasing not having the appropriate experience playing LEO, there are already protocols and procedures. 200 km/h, or 125 mp/h is "not-realistic" for speeds, however, it is. You claim that cops drive like crazy and crash cars into suspects, provide evidence of that, or make an OOC IA report with LSPD or LSSD, as that is not something that happens. There's also desync in this server which can cause for accidental crashes, however this is all IC and not OOC regulated outside of certain NRP or VDM rules. PD and SD are NOT exempt from any NRP or VDM rules despite what one might think. And pitting at only 120 km/h or 62 mp/h, that's barely US highway speeds. Real life pursuits are a bit quicker than that. It's about ending the chase as safely as possible, and someone going 200+ km/h (125+ mp/h) is putting a hazard to civilian lives RPly and physically.

• Disable "repairing cars" by despwaning the old one and spawning a new one

Do you know how bad the desync is on this server? There's no NPC cars, so you have people flying at 220+ km/h down the main city streets, or cross sections and smack right into you. Great your shift is over and lasted 5 minutes because you are now scriptly inable to deploy another cruiser. Or, you're at a traffic stop, the suspect in front of you shoots your tires out because they don't like you giving them a 2nd degree speeding ticket, and now you can't "repair" your cruiser, and are done for the day. Great RP to be involved with.

• Promote using only one car during the shift and not spawning despawning cars during chases/when they come to mission row (it doesnt work that way IRL)

See above, this was just duplicated but to include only pursuits.

• Add actual dispacher possition

This used to be a thing on the server, but was removed.

 

 

All in all, a lot of this is "we want realistic RP", but you need to ask yourself, where is the middle ground of a game vs realistic RP, and when it is RP for all, and not just wanting RP for yourself? These suggestions have been brought up countless times before, and none of these are implemented. You want to see the overpowered LEO's? Come play on the server between 01:00 - 07:00 during the weekdays. I welcome you to see these overpowered factions dealing with multiple gangs during these tough hours. The key thing to all of this is balance. Things are in a decent spot here. I encourage you to join PD or SD and see how things work from their side. See all the rules and protocols and procedures that we have to align ourselves with, and you'll see it's not so black and white.

[Ritchie Stones]

i feel the issue  around police being able to lose their guns is a double edged sword, 

- it will create that cops might have an even more win over rp mentality, for the simple fact that they might actually lose something, look at the time where guns where super expensive and people where going up and beyond to win any situation for that gun. you don't want cops to become like that either.

- also it is true that crims will likely start to target cops to get their guns, just that alone will create such hateful imbalance between crims and cops that it wont be fun anymore

[tigerpet15]

Well you certainly make really understandable points. Me personally I main a criminal character And never played for LEOs though I want to try that out at some point. Well I took a rough road of being banned twice to find out what RP I enjoy. I hate roviny people because most of the time its like boring RP. I really really enjoy planning high quality RP scenarios which gives to the server And try hard to have rp over winning mentality. Honestly I think I want to do the criminal RP because those players has lesser oversight than LEOs who have to have higher rp standards. And think I can try to shift at least the other players I RP with to quality RP.  But often come to see planets who does have the win over rp mentality. And since Im criminal I often RP with cops. Well there are a lot of decent Roleplayer cops I love to RP with And who give to the server. But there are a lot of them who want to win over rp. And I hate when during the arrest he barely talks to me. I believe there should be sort of balance. And as I said I dont have the other point of view cause Im not RPing a LEO. 
 

As for the cops not dropping guns. I see where the problem is. There are a lot of criminals who would clap them for their guns. I wouldn’t do that but a lot of people would. Honestly I don’t like clapping people. I like prolongued escalation leading up to planned shooting. Like finding persons apartment and ambushing him in front of it with planned escape route. 
 

WELL THANK YOU FOR THE IMPUT ANYWAYS. I really appreciate the detailed explanation and honestly I can say that I mostly agree with you. 
 

thank you

[Ritchie Stones]

7 minutes ago, tigerpet15 said:

Well you certainly make really understandable points. Me personally I main a criminal character And never played for LEOs though I want to try that out at some point. Well I took a rough road of being banned twice to find out what RP I enjoy. I hate roviny people because most of the time its like boring RP. I really really enjoy planning high quality RP scenarios which gives to the server And try hard to have rp over winning mentality. Honestly I think I want to do the criminal RP because those players has lesser oversight than LEOs who have to have higher rp standards. And think I can try to shift at least the other players I RP with to quality RP.  But often come to see planets who does have the win over rp mentality. And since Im criminal I often RP with cops. Well there are a lot of decent Roleplayer cops I love to RP with And who give to the server. But there are a lot of them who want to win over rp. And I hate when during the arrest he barely talks to me. I believe there should be sort of balance. And as I said I dont have the other point of view cause Im not RPing a LEO. 
 

As for the cops not dropping guns. I see where the problem is. There are a lot of criminals who would clap them for their guns. I wouldn’t do that but a lot of people would. Honestly I don’t like clapping people. I like prolongued escalation leading up to planned shooting. Like finding persons apartment and ambushing him in front of it with planned escape route. 
 

WELL THANK YOU FOR THE IMPUT ANYWAYS. I really appreciate the detailed explanation and honestly I can say that I mostly agree with you. 
 

thank you

its great to hear someone that thinks on my level and understands a deeper level of complex situations   I think manny of the current developments are not permanent, there use the be a rule of shared freqs being banned due to the clapping and that one got lifted, I think the server is in a constant state of development, look at the tables, they have changed more in the past 1 years than the Instagram algorithm hehe. so its this constant dance being created

[HobGoblin]

On 3/19/2024 at 5:35 PM, tigerpet15 said:

Give detectives chance to access recent events of doors/cars/tools/was in the field of camera - I think detectives should be able to access a list of IDs who used doors/cars/tools/cameras to give them ability to RP with /ldos an investigations like IRL. It would promote a lot more RP and Id love to get arrested after thoughtful investigations/house raids etc. 

I wish we had more ways to see who interacted with certain things. Currently, we have to ask admins and even then it can take awhile to get a response. A lot of the commands exist in the game but are limited to mod/admin+.

Players have the option to leave a /fdo on the scene, however only a handful of players willfully leave /fdo for detectives to investigate.

[SquirtleSquad]

Just now, HobGoblin said:

I wish we had more ways to see who interacted with certain things. Currently, we have to ask admins and even then it can take awhile to get a response. A lot of the commands exist in the game but are limited to mod/admin+.

Players have the option to leave a /fdo on the scene, however only a handful of players willfully leave /fdo for detectives to investigate.

Agreed entirely. I would love to not have to need a mod+ to do vehicle RP and such, or like a way for detectives to get the ID of the deceased to run a /ldo on them to try and piece together a scene. The thing is, unless it happens near CCTV 9/10 homicide scenes fall static due to lack of script supported evidence. 

[Quietthecutie]

Oh jesus. Ill make a proper imput to this discussion when i have the time but this is gonna get spicy.

[AnakinB]

i feel like this thread has been made a million times and nothing ever comes of it

[Eliza]

I believe if LEO lost their guns when they died, while on paper may sound like a good idea, in practice it would result in players targeting LEOs a lot more than they already do.

There already does exist some IC limitations when it comes to officers deploying heavy weapons that I won’t get too deep into because it’s IC, but all I’ll really say is not every LEO can just whip out a carbine willy nilly.

 

I just personally wish despawning and respawning a new cruiser could have some limitations or even a cooldown, theres been times I’ve taken tires and have had them drop out of the pursuit and pull a new car out, it hasn’t happened too often lately but it used to be a common practice.

[Richie194]

I like a lot of the ideas posted besides the gun dropping. As ive stated in another post, I'd suggest making it  a lil easier to steal the guns from cops if they are held up. i think its just time consuming to have to wait for admins due to scripted guns being stuck on cops. besides from that the gun dropping will only incentivise PVP

 

[Quietthecutie]

  

• Give detectives chance to access recent events of doors/cars/tools/was in the field of camera - I think detectives should be able to access a list of IDs who used doors/cars/tools/cameras to give them ability to RP with /ldos an investigations like IRL. It would promote a lot more RP and Id love to get arrested after thoughtful investigations/house raids etc. 
• As previously said Detectives have most of these tools at their disposal. the few they dont have are script issues but can be fixed with staff interaction.
• Make LEOs loose their weapons when they die - I think when criminals kills cops they should be able to loot their weapons. I think it would make two things to happpen. Cops would be more careful about their operations with the risk of putting more guns on the street and it would promote other means of RP over shooting like deescalation techniques. Also I believe when there is a heated shootout between gangs cops should wait for the swat/numbers to arrive because that happens IRL
• This would not play out the way you think it would. your average LEO player isnt going to consider the consequence of putting more guns on the street. they will see an opportunity to have some LEO RP and if they meet the parameters of engagement, they will. and let NLR rules deal with any fallout. and as an LEO main once said on a similar post in suggestions "I refuse to become some WOW boss you and the boys can hunt down for some loot." engagements with LEOs should never be loot motivated.
• Let basic units have only sidearms (like IRL) and a shotgun in the trunk (with timer to get it out) - I think this change would add to realism, it would equal out the difference between criminals and basic cops and it would promote more rp over shooting (cops would have to plan out what to do and if they d meet criminals with bigger numbers they should try talking them selves out of the situations and not starting shooting with automatic weapons), also PDs should try to always deescalate situations instead of shooting and have them to plan their actions (making the smarter one "win" not the one with more guns). It would also equal out the gun differences between criminals and cops - making more planning RP promotes RP cops should always try to deescalate situation and not to shoot etc. Less weapons less shooting and more RP - cops having to play smart like deescalating etc. cause risk of loosing guns and when there are 10 gang members against two cops the shouldnt draw their weapons and shooting them disregarding fear for their lifes
• To my knowledge this is already a thing. patrol units who are not part of any higher division only carry basic weaponry and specific parameters need to be met to bring out bigger toys. the part of this that you don't see is the communications between LEO units, which are quite detailed and involve the number of suspects, their affiliations and past encounters. If they feel a heavy gang presence in a situation they will roll up with heavy gear. so if you see a cop in a cruiser with a shotgun on his back you can guarantee they have received intelligence as to why he needs it. this is sensible. 
• Make swat teams heavily armed but they would have a higher respond time (armored cars) to get to the scene - SWAT should be realistically the only heavily armed unit in the PD. They should have overkill weapons to stop any shootout etc. They exist for this reason. And they should differentiate from the normal units by the heavy weapons they have.
• In agreement that only SWAT should have the resources to roll out with TARVs and heavy armour. these are the endgame bosses of any engagement. however with all middle equipment such as SMGs/Rifles and AIR1 this is like perfectly acceptable for a METRO unit to have to swiftly end an engagement. 
• Paying for lost guns
• This will never happen.
• Add a rule about realistic driving for LEOs - realistic pits, not crashing into suspects cars - I believe there should be little bit of tweaking of the driving rules for the LEOs to make it more realistic. I think there should be speed limit fro performing a pit manuver (like 120km/h) to make it safe for the driver being stoped and the cop preforming the manuver. I think there should be updated spike strips to make the easire to setup and to promote their use over the pit manuvers. I have experienced cops driving like crazy crashing their cars into the suspect like crazy with complete disregard for the property of the department and their lives. Honestly there is a rule against misusing expensive vehicles and think cops are given an too overpowered exception. This is kind of win over rp mentality which is worth fighting for changing.
• Sounds great on paper but how are you planning to enforce this? between Desync issues, realism gap and the fact that this is...well...a videogame...a certain liberty needs to be given to chases to allow roleplay to flow. what you are suggesting would result in a total flood of the reports section and an admin being called to every chase. 
• Disable "repairing cars" by despwaning the old one and spawning a new one - I think to add to the realism and roleplay the cop cars should spawn with 50% of fuel tank and the cops should refuel them selves like IRL (instead of spawning/despawning cars) and when they break their car they should call mechanic/go to mechanics workshop for a repair (adds on RP)
• This is a legitimate concern and consideration needs to be given to hotswapping BUT ON BOTH SIDES. If we are going to call out the cops for hotswapping at mission row mid pursuit then we also need to give consideration to crims who do the exact same thing but at city parking. the only difference is that cops have an infinite amount of vehicles to pull, which again, is a concern.
• Promote using only one car during the shift and not spawning despawning cars during chases/when they come to mission row (it doesnt work that way IRL) - I think there should be rule that officers would be able to spawn car in the begging of the shift and despawning it after the end. I think it would promote rp of higher command to control which units have which cars to have enough reach for high speed chases and off road chases. It d be fun to see that. Also I think parking police cars in front of PD instead of despawning the car would promote RP like actually someone stealing a cop car/spraypainting on the cop cars etc.
• See my above point. p much covers this.
• Add actual dispacher possition - basically the person/people in control of units which locations they should cruise, to be the people behind desk controlling which units should join chase etc. (probably for higher ranking officers).  Like having people overlooking all PD operations. Also this position should be deciding when an officer goes on duty which car is he gonna drive weather high speed/offroad etc. I think its unrealistic to replace it for the current system. So I think it d be reasonable to have the old sysstem during less active hours and the new dispatcher position during rush hours. Also it would be great to rp call with a dispatcher and it would heavily promote RP and realism.
• I find the suggestion interesting and potentially feasible. a dispatcher being required for peak times could be cool but again, implementation is a challenge. 

 

• Final points:
  I don't have an LEO main and often find myself championing improvement for crims but i find most of these suggestions to be unreasonable. if you take a fight versus the police you should expect to lose. there have been maybe, one, 2 occasions in my time where the cops went out in full force and actually took an L. this is not a critique, they are the law and order of the city and should not be targeted by gangs or organisations with any kind of motivation of gain. 

Edited March 26, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[Cup]

Ill just comment on the dispatcher idea as I think its interesting. The only issue with it is how you would regulate it. During non peak hours no one would want to do it. And even during peak hours it would take a motivated person wanting to do it to do so. Not only that but all the protocols and rp around it would need to be built first.

[Bala]

I feel like I've seen this sort of thread before and I see we're looking to incentivize shooting at cops again, nice.

We can go that route but I think it'd help with my realism if I get a portion of the fines you get charged when you go to prison or jail. I also think it would incentivize good roleplay if I could sell criminals personal items at the pawn shop. If you could also cap your speed at a more realistic amount in pursuits then we can all drive slower and more realistic. Also, when we do get into a pursuit with you and one of our units crashes, I'll need you to pull your car over and wait for them to return. Also, I think it would really help if I can just charge you again, without having to defend my actions through a bunch of out of game paperwork to someone that has less than half of the experience of LEO RP as I do.

I'll let you into a secret, the people that actually genuinely want this to be a realistic RP server, cop or crim are in the minority on this server. Most individuals, both cop and crim either enjoy what is established or they don't care enough to say either way.

If you wanna fix something important, fix the fucking bozos on this server that can't roleplay and comply after being tased a bunch of times, or the bozos that purposely leave their wellness low so when they start beating you with cuffs on and you react, they die quicker. 

Why is no criminal making that thread I wonder?

Why would any cop role-player on this server, be willing to engage in these kind of restrictions when it's those kinds of morons that will benefit the most from that?

I've been a cop here, in PD, for five years and while there might be a small number of cases where this doesn't happen, the LSPD is away and clear the faction with the highest standard of roleplay on this server and the one that cares the most about giving people a fair chance. 

Start making the PD about money and you'll soon be back on the forums making another thread.

[tigerpet15]

22 hours ago, HobGoblin said:

I wish we had more ways to see who interacted with certain things. Currently, we have to ask admins and even then it can take awhile to get a response. A lot of the commands exist in the game but are limited to mod/admin+.

Players have the option to leave a /fdo on the scene, however only a handful of players willfully leave /fdo for detectives to investigate.

Yeah I think the limit of dropped /fdo commands is a problem. I love to Roleplay sprapainting ovver cameras etc. But yeah the limit of 5 /fdos is too low

[EnkoY]

I think a lot of these points can be traced back to economic balance.
The largest issue that our server is facing, in my opinion, is a seemingly complete lack of economic management.

Without wanting to make this a "crim vs leo" response, when you draw the line under any crim vs pd interaction, there is a loser and a winner.
The average criminal player runs around with a .50, potentially silenced and maybe a knife. Let's call it 10k.
The average LEO player runs around with a .50, not worth anything because they can't lose it.
If at the end of the interaction, let's call it an hour long for ease of argumentation, the Criminal player should die, they've lost 10k for the gun and whatever else they had on them.
Those are the Direct Consequence Costs, that's what they lose immediately. Secondary Costs are that, in order to replace that firearm, they have to find somebody who's selling a new gun, run the risk, albeit minimal, of getting caught and arrested, then pay the dollars and hopefully not get robbed for the dollars and the gun.

At this point, the criminal player is down 20k and let's call it around 2 hours, 1 for the interaction, 1 for sourcing a new firearm.
Now, obviously no criminal player is obligated to run around with a .50, so for argument's sake, we'll ignore the cost of the .50 and just say that they "lost" 1 hour of their time.

The LEO player, in the event they should win the interaction, gain the salary for 1 hour of the interaction and another 30 minutes for cleanup and paperwork. Let's say they make 6k per hour, that means they're up 9k of untaxed salary.

If the Criminal player would not die but get arrested, they suffer the losses posted above, with increased "time loss" and fines. Sure, they can go to prison and make money there, but it's not great and frankly boring. Let's say financially they break-even on the fines and lost equipment by going to prison. So it's a zero-gain result at the end of it, from a financial perspective.

If the LEO player loses the interaction, they lose nothing. They still get their salary, they'll still be able to get fresh equipment, fully locked and loaded by clicking a couple times and typing out some lines of RP. Zero costs incurred, barring some potential losses of personal possessions if they have any on them at the time of their death.
The criminal gains nothing from this interaction. In fact, you could say they lose because they lost time that they could've potentially spent on something more productive.

The above is all nice and dandy if the criminal players seek out interactions with PD, ie "fuck around and find out", but unfortunately that's not always the case. Sometimes, criminal players are just going about their business and they get "harassed" by LEO, which makes total sense from an IC perspective, but not from an OOC perspective.
The IC economic balance of any criminal and LEO interaction is completely out of whack.

It's cool to argue that we should all just play for the RP and to enjoy our time the best way we can, but the argument becomes completely moot when you look at it from an opportunity cost perspective and equalize the quality of the RP across the board within a specific interaction and only one side also gains in-game currency and another either loses in-game currency or experiences a zero-gain status.

You can have a top of the line, amazing, never-seen-before awesome RP interaction between a criminal and a LEO player and the criminal will always come out worse.
You could argue that "it's a choice to play criminal on the server and a consequence that comes with that RP", and, yes, I agree, but we also need to understand that if the consequences suck balls, nobody will want to play criminal RP anymore and we'll just have a legal-only server and we'll be at the end of our platform's life within a year, maybe months.

We're paying out millions in bonuses 3-4 times per year to any members of legal factions. Houses and cars cost the same, regardless of the playstyle you've chosen for your character. But everything sure is more affordable if you're a non-criminal player. There's a reason why a large chunk of the players who like the combat/shootout RP have LEO alts or even mains and it's because the combat there is the same, but it doesn't cost you an arm and a leg every time you shoot a bullet.

If we want the server to be healthy and have both sides of the law be in balance, the economy needs to be managed much better, or, frankly, it just needs to be managed because right now it really feels like we're just willy-nilly pumping cash into the economy without thinking twice about the direct consequences to our playerbase.

When I'm playing with about 5 of my friends, having fun chopping a car at Chilliad camp, as a new unknown gang with no violent track record that would warrant any type of active suppression, that's going to net each of us about 3k if we're lucky and then get absolutely dunked on by a gaggle of SWAT LEO players who literally fall out of the sky after parachuting out of a helicopter, fully decked out with carbines and kevlar, arresting all of us, charging us for things that cost money in fines, impounding our vehicles, confiscating our equipment and sending us to DOC for an hour, then I frankly just want to log out and forget about the server for a week because I just can't be bothered anymore at that point and that quite sums it up for me in terms of balance. I understand there are consequences to the play-style, but if we have to risk so much to gain so little, then we're just not going to bother anymore in the future and that's not a good thing for the server or our community.

[Demonmit1]

14 hours ago, Bala said:

the one that cares the most about giving people a fair chance. 

i play a non violent criminal. ive given up playing my actual crim. the average PD / SD response to crimes is insane even for my non violent crim.

drunk driving 40kph down the road in the city. having 10+ units respond, helicopters, and being boxed in with ARs pulled is giving people a fair chance? this is how PD responds to calls regularly. if i had something to lose like a true crim with assets, yeah, i would want to quit with how unfairly PD responds to stuff.

[Clank]

4 hours ago, EnkoY said:

We're paying out millions in bonuses 3-4 times per year to any members of legal factions. Houses and cars cost the same, regardless of the playstyle you've chosen for your character. But everything sure is more affordable if you're a non-criminal player. There's a reason why a large chunk of the players who like the combat/shootout RP have LEO alts or even mains and it's because the combat there is the same, but it doesn't cost you an arm and a leg every time you shoot a bullet.

If we want the server to be healthy and have both sides of the law be in balance, the economy needs to be managed much better, or, frankly, it just needs to be managed because right now it really feels like we're just willy-nilly pumping cash into the economy without thinking twice about the direct consequences to our playerbase.

Criminal RP in general is not ruined by the "economy". You can make a treasure trove of money by sitting in a drug lab, cooking nonstop, leaving to grab more supplies and repeat. While this is not as easy as last year where we had literal AFK farming happening inside houses due to house drug labs, its just as profitable from cooking. It is also MORE SO if you include the assets you gain from wiping the opposing gangs trying to step up to you. I have seen countless of videos, clips and screenshots of people holding a lab, cooking, making hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of drugs from a single lab hold AND on top of that coming out with multiple class 2s, a bag full of .50s etc. The economy is heavily leaning towards the criminal element which quite frankly should be. As you mentioned, there is a RISK and a REWARD.

If we want to include police into the mix, It is rare that police show up to a criminal location. 100% of the time there is a good reason for cops showing up which could have been avoided if more people used their noggins when dealing with criminal locations. An example being, two days ago a massive gang-on-gang fight was happening and multiple people on BF400s were spotting speeding through the city with class 2 weapons on their backs that led police DIRECTLY TO THE ISLAND.

If we want the server to be TRULY healthy, we should focus on actually having meaningful updates for example:

• Buffing/Nerfing cars every-so-often so no one car is truly a buy-to-win and instead you focus on buying cars you ENJOY.
• Changing the current rules of deathmatching, fear RP, etc. To be LESS strict since you currently need a college level thesis for a criminal to shoot another criminal.
• Consistent updates, clothing, hairstyles, gang headquarters, heist progression.

Thats just a small amount of ideas that should be focused on instead of making up "cop v criminal economical" problems.

4 hours ago, EnkoY said:

When I'm playing with about 5 of my friends, having fun chopping a car at Chilliad camp, as a new unknown gang with no violent track record that would warrant any type of active suppression, that's going to net each of us about 3k if we're lucky and then get absolutely dunked on by a gaggle of SWAT LEO players who literally fall out of the sky after parachuting out of a helicopter, fully decked out with carbines and kevlar, arresting all of us, charging us for things that cost money in fines, impounding our vehicles, confiscating our equipment and sending us to DOC for an hour, then I frankly just want to log out and forget about the server for a week because I just can't be bothered anymore at that point and that quite sums it up for me in terms of balance. I understand there are consequences to the play-style, but if we have to risk so much to gain so little, then we're just not going to bother anymore in the future and that's not a good thing for the server or our community.

The way the server has its criminal activities set up, chilliad (alongside other dynamic lab/chop locations) is considered end-game criminal progression. If you want to go straight to holding a chop or a lab and get railed by an opposing gang or police then I'm sorry that is a skill issue. The way the faction rules for PD/SD are set up make it so they can only go to those locations if something somewhere goes wrong on the criminal side of things. Which is EXTREMELY lenient. If you want to hold a chop or lab then you should be prepared to fight opposing gangs or the police. You're not "risking so much" to gain so little. You're risking a .50 and impound fees to possibly gain over hundreds of thousands of dollars. The problem is that you're not preparing for every outcome.

Lets also stop the slander right now about gun prices and kevlar prices. You can get a full loadout for under 30-50k as it stands depending on the guns and armor you choose. A .50 is less than 5k to import (I wont reveal the exact price to not cuck any criminal gunrunning RP). Kevlar is also dirt cheap. If you're in a criminal organization and you're doing end-game content such as holding a lab or a chop and are not bringing class 2s and body armor then quite frankly you're risking your characters life in order to min-max profits. 

You want to know WHY a gang like CSB can consistently overpower gangs holding entrenched locations? I've cleaned up gang shootouts and seen the difference in firepower between the two groups. 

Edited March 26, 2024 by Clank

[Bala]

4 hours ago, Demonmit1 said:

i play a non violent criminal. ive given up playing my actual crim. the average PD / SD response to crimes is insane even for my non violent crim.

drunk driving 40kph down the road in the city. having 10+ units respond, helicopters, and being boxed in with ARs pulled is giving people a fair chance? this is how PD responds to calls regularly. if i had something to lose like a true crim with assets, yeah, i would want to quit with how unfairly PD responds to stuff.

But if you are drunk driving, going 40 in the city, what outcome are you expecting exactly? If you can't drive even the speed limit, you are not getting away so what difference is it going to make to you whether you have 2 people respond or 20? Your car is going get stopped and you going go to jail regardless.

Maybe you're just using that as an example.

In which case, let me put you up on why there are sometimes a disproportionate amount of police responding to a situation. We suffer, here in Eclipse, of short-termism and don't always consider the long-term consequences when taking decisions. Because some individuals in their wisdom decided it was a good idea, even without the numbers to properly support it, we decided to put a lot of emphasis on non-cop/criminal roleplay. What that did was dilute the pool that might be a criminal like yourself or a cop like myself and put them outside the pool, in their own little pool. 

Great for those that enjoy civilian roleplay but for crim and cop, ehhh.

In short, the math don't math. It's really hard to balance out a faction's numbers when in some time-zones you have more cops than you know what to do with and in others, you barely have enough to cover the basic 911 calls. I was in game the other day, around about 5pm-ish and there was nothing coming in. No pursuits, no impound calls, no ATM robberies, no one even fucking up their car around a tree and needing us to step in for MD. We had like maybe 13-14 cops on and very, very few calls. I started doing yoga in Vinewood, for something to do, until a call came in. YOGA @Demonmit1 - I had to resort to passive roleplay!

8-10 units chasing a civvie that is evading isn't ideal, I agree. But, what else are you going to do in them time-zones where there's no crims. I could log on at 2am and be overworked to where I can't answer every call but then me and the rest of my faction are getting their shit pushed in by the hordes.

The server needs a re-balance and some type of long-term strategy but good luck getting everyone on board for that, when everyone has their own self interests. Ask 10 different people what they want in ECRP and they'll give you 10 different answers.

For me, I feel like the server is at it's best when there's all difference kinds of things popping off but it feels right now, the only place that seems to give cops something consistent to do, is Burger Shot and that place is a dumpster fire of RP.

Edited March 26, 2024 by Bala

[Demonmit1]

56 minutes ago, Bala said:

Your car is going get stopped and you going go to jail regardless.

oh yeah 100%. I verge on cop baiting on that character just to start an interaction to be involved in RP, and have no problem regularly going to jail. I'm sure I've been to prison well over 60 times now on that character. lol. I make sure to offer good RP from playing that, and basically everyone i interreact with on that character OOCLy is a fan. 

Was definitely using that situation just as an example, showing that even as a known non violent crim/civ, I commonly get LEO responses like that. Personally, it makes it more entertaining for myself, and i ham it up for everyone involved to make it fun, but i can very much see it from the POV as a real crim player, that kind of response that happens regularly would be extremely demotivating.

 

Quote

The server needs a re-balance and some type of long-term strategy

There needs to be a push from both LEO and Crim to make a change and improve interactions across the board, and thats a massive undertaking. A lot of people see it from an outside perspective, and see these recommendations being made, but nothing being changed or tested, so people get frustrated thinking they're being ignored.

[tigerpet15]

7 hours ago, EnkoY said:

I think a lot of these points can be traced back to economic balance.
The largest issue that our server is facing, in my opinion, is a seemingly complete lack of economic management.

Without wanting to make this a "crim vs leo" response, when you draw the line under any crim vs pd interaction, there is a loser and a winner.
The average criminal player runs around with a .50, potentially silenced and maybe a knife. Let's call it 10k.
The average LEO player runs around with a .50, not worth anything because they can't lose it.
If at the end of the interaction, let's call it an hour long for ease of argumentation, the Criminal player should die, they've lost 10k for the gun and whatever else they had on them.
Those are the Direct Consequence Costs, that's what they lose immediately. Secondary Costs are that, in order to replace that firearm, they have to find somebody who's selling a new gun, run the risk, albeit minimal, of getting caught and arrested, then pay the dollars and hopefully not get robbed for the dollars and the gun.

At this point, the criminal player is down 20k and let's call it around 2 hours, 1 for the interaction, 1 for sourcing a new firearm.
Now, obviously no criminal player is obligated to run around with a .50, so for argument's sake, we'll ignore the cost of the .50 and just say that they "lost" 1 hour of their time.

The LEO player, in the event they should win the interaction, gain the salary for 1 hour of the interaction and another 30 minutes for cleanup and paperwork. Let's say they make 6k per hour, that means they're up 9k of untaxed salary.

If the Criminal player would not die but get arrested, they suffer the losses posted above, with increased "time loss" and fines. Sure, they can go to prison and make money there, but it's not great and frankly boring. Let's say financially they break-even on the fines and lost equipment by going to prison. So it's a zero-gain result at the end of it, from a financial perspective.

If the LEO player loses the interaction, they lose nothing. They still get their salary, they'll still be able to get fresh equipment, fully locked and loaded by clicking a couple times and typing out some lines of RP. Zero costs incurred, barring some potential losses of personal possessions if they have any on them at the time of their death.
The criminal gains nothing from this interaction. In fact, you could say they lose because they lost time that they could've potentially spent on something more productive.

The above is all nice and dandy if the criminal players seek out interactions with PD, ie "fuck around and find out", but unfortunately that's not always the case. Sometimes, criminal players are just going about their business and they get "harassed" by LEO, which makes total sense from an IC perspective, but not from an OOC perspective.
The IC economic balance of any criminal and LEO interaction is completely out of whack.

It's cool to argue that we should all just play for the RP and to enjoy our time the best way we can, but the argument becomes completely moot when you look at it from an opportunity cost perspective and equalize the quality of the RP across the board within a specific interaction and only one side also gains in-game currency and another either loses in-game currency or experiences a zero-gain status.

You can have a top of the line, amazing, never-seen-before awesome RP interaction between a criminal and a LEO player and the criminal will always come out worse.
You could argue that "it's a choice to play criminal on the server and a consequence that comes with that RP", and, yes, I agree, but we also need to understand that if the consequences suck balls, nobody will want to play criminal RP anymore and we'll just have a legal-only server and we'll be at the end of our platform's life within a year, maybe months.

We're paying out millions in bonuses 3-4 times per year to any members of legal factions. Houses and cars cost the same, regardless of the playstyle you've chosen for your character. But everything sure is more affordable if you're a non-criminal player. There's a reason why a large chunk of the players who like the combat/shootout RP have LEO alts or even mains and it's because the combat there is the same, but it doesn't cost you an arm and a leg every time you shoot a bullet.

If we want the server to be healthy and have both sides of the law be in balance, the economy needs to be managed much better, or, frankly, it just needs to be managed because right now it really feels like we're just willy-nilly pumping cash into the economy without thinking twice about the direct consequences to our playerbase.

When I'm playing with about 5 of my friends, having fun chopping a car at Chilliad camp, as a new unknown gang with no violent track record that would warrant any type of active suppression, that's going to net each of us about 3k if we're lucky and then get absolutely dunked on by a gaggle of SWAT LEO players who literally fall out of the sky after parachuting out of a helicopter, fully decked out with carbines and kevlar, arresting all of us, charging us for things that cost money in fines, impounding our vehicles, confiscating our equipment and sending us to DOC for an hour, then I frankly just want to log out and forget about the server for a week because I just can't be bothered anymore at that point and that quite sums it up for me in terms of balance. I understand there are consequences to the play-style, but if we have to risk so much to gain so little, then we're just not going to bother anymore in the future and that's not a good thing for the server or our community.

Actually one of the points I wanted to include was the economy of LEOs - that they dont have a budget or anything like that. I decided noto to cause that wouldnt be accepted by the LEO community. As for the criminal roleplay. I had a long brake from playing on the server and came back with plenty of cool RP ideas. But I get soo burned out just from getting arrested with boring roleplay Ive experienced million times. Also yeah the criminal roleplayeres are toxic ID say they are more toxic than LEOs and I think this may be actually the reason you loose too much to gain so little. And from me trying to give server interesting roleplay becomes doing robbing bs RP which I dislike to have at least little bit of chance of gaining something.

[Quietthecutie]

3 hours ago, Bala said:

Ask 10 different people what they want in ECRP and they'll give you 10 different answers.

https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/cb78012a-2dbc-4b9e-ac97-03eb2bd7fd4b

Edited March 27, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[EnkoY]

5 hours ago, Clank said:

If we want the server to be TRULY healthy, we should focus on actually having meaningful updates for example:

• Buffing/Nerfing cars every-so-often so no one car is truly a buy-to-win and instead you focus on buying cars you ENJOY.
• Changing the current rules of deathmatching, fear RP, etc. To be LESS strict since you currently need a college level thesis for a criminal to shoot another criminal.
• Consistent updates, clothing, hairstyles, gang headquarters, heist progression.

This is where we find common ground, however:

5 hours ago, Clank said:

Lets also stop the slander right now about gun prices and kevlar prices. You can get a full loadout for under 30-50k as it stands depending on the guns and armor you choose. A .50 is less than 5k to import (I wont reveal the exact price to not cuck any criminal gunrunning RP). Kevlar is also dirt cheap.

Most of the numbers you provided here are just wrong, .50's do not import at those prices and even if they were right, you're covering about 2% of criminal players who actually have access to equipment at those prices. The other 98% have to pay much, much more, making your argument just completely pointless in the context of this topic.
And even if they can get it for 50k, a LEO player gets it for free and only needs to spit out some lines of RP and potentially drive back and forth between the scene and mrpd to 'restock'.
You're comparing apples and oranges and it's hypocritical to try and argue a point like this.
It doesn't matter how much it costs for a criminal player, the fact of the matter remains that the LEO players pays literally zero for the same equipment in the same RP interaction.

 

5 hours ago, Clank said:

Criminal RP in general is not ruined by the "economy". You can make a treasure trove of money by sitting in a drug lab, cooking nonstop, leaving to grab more supplies and repeat.

You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. Furthermore, you are once again basing your argument on data that represents a small fraction of the criminal playerbase and are creating a straw man argument by saying criminals can make tons of money by holing themselves up inside a lab and cooking endless batches of drugs. It's entirely besides the point of this argument. Not to mention that nobody wants to do that. It's the one thing we agree upon, probably, it's dogshit RP quality and a terrible way to spend your evening in terms of RP.

 

5 hours ago, Clank said:

The problem is that you're not preparing for every outcome.

You are trying to say that criminal groups should have 5 guys in full 100 AP armor and class 2 firearms to chop a car that'll net them 15-30k, just to cover all their bases and prepare for the off chance that an entire SWAT team thunders down on them with parachutes jumping out of a heli.
Surely you understand how bizarre that sounds?
You are essentially saying that anyone who doesn't shell out 50k+ per person participating in a single car chop that'll net a total of 15-30k between all participants is suffering from a "skill issue". Do you have any idea how ridiculously out of touch that sounds?

If you're saying that the entire LEO structure, loadout and measure of force is focused on the top tier gangs who have direct access to imports and pay peanuts for their guns, then you're essentially admitting that EVERY other interaction between LEO and anyone outside of those 2% is entirely unbalanced, because LEO will respond with the maximum possible force available to them, regardless of the target.
Their response does not care whether you're holding a .50 or an MG, they will respond to the biggest possible threat they can imagine and with every possible sliver of force they can free up and the financial cost incurred is literally zero.

That's imbalance right there.
 

All that being said, I don't believe charging LEO players individually for their equipment is the right way to go either, but perhaps each faction loadout interaction could incur a debt within that faction's treasury for the value of the equipment and if not returned, the faction's treasury loses that money. If the next faction loadout interaction cost cannot be covered by the treasury's funds, then we're shit out of luck until the treasury replenishes. If a car is returned without tyres, they lose x% of the cost charged to the treasury for the spawning of the vehicle. If a carbine is not returned because the player died and it couldn't be recovered, then they lose the cost of that carbine + ammo. If somebody deploys a kevlar vest with 100 armor points and returns it with 0, then the cost of that kevlar is not returned to the treasury, etc etc and this is where we enter the realm of economic balancing and management of the assets available to players and factions on the server.

[Richie194]

6 hours ago, EnkoY said:

This is where we find common ground, however:

Most of the numbers you provided here are just wrong, .50's do not import at those prices and even if they were right, you're covering about 2% of criminal players who actually have access to equipment at those prices. The other 98% have to pay much, much more, making your argument just completely pointless in the context of this topic.
And even if they can get it for 50k, a LEO player gets it for free and only needs to spit out some lines of RP and potentially drive back and forth between the scene and mrpd to 'restock'.
You're comparing apples and oranges and it's hypocritical to try and argue a point like this.
It doesn't matter how much it costs for a criminal player, the fact of the matter remains that the LEO players pays literally zero for the same equipment in the same RP interaction.

 

You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. Furthermore, you are once again basing your argument on data that represents a small fraction of the criminal playerbase and are creating a straw man argument by saying criminals can make tons of money by holing themselves up inside a lab and cooking endless batches of drugs. It's entirely besides the point of this argument. Not to mention that nobody wants to do that. It's the one thing we agree upon, probably, it's dogshit RP quality and a terrible way to spend your evening in terms of RP.

 

You are trying to say that criminal groups should have 5 guys in full 100 AP armor and class 2 firearms to chop a car that'll net them 15-30k, just to cover all their bases and prepare for the off chance that an entire SWAT team thunders down on them with parachutes jumping out of a heli.
Surely you understand how bizarre that sounds?
You are essentially saying that anyone who doesn't shell out 50k+ per person participating in a single car chop that'll net a total of 15-30k between all participants is suffering from a "skill issue". Do you have any idea how ridiculously out of touch that sounds?

If you're saying that the entire LEO structure, loadout and measure of force is focused on the top tier gangs who have direct access to imports and pay peanuts for their guns, then you're essentially admitting that EVERY other interaction between LEO and anyone outside of those 2% is entirely unbalanced, because LEO will respond with the maximum possible force available to them, regardless of the target.
Their response does not care whether you're holding a .50 or an MG, they will respond to the biggest possible threat they can imagine and with every possible sliver of force they can free up and the financial cost incurred is literally zero.

That's imbalance right there.
 

All that being said, I don't believe charging LEO players individually for their equipment is the right way to go either, but perhaps each faction loadout interaction could incur a debt within that faction's treasury for the value of the equipment and if not returned, the faction's treasury loses that money. If the next faction loadout interaction cost cannot be covered by the treasury's funds, then we're shit out of luck until the treasury replenishes. If a car is returned without tyres, they lose x% of the cost charged to the treasury for the spawning of the vehicle. If a carbine is not returned because the player died and it couldn't be recovered, then they lose the cost of that carbine + ammo. If somebody deploys a kevlar vest with 100 armor points and returns it with 0, then the cost of that kevlar is not returned to the treasury, etc etc and this is where we enter the realm of economic balancing and management of the assets available to players and factions on the server.

This is probably the best post I've seen here. More specifically the last part about money being used from the treasury. That would actually work out well, the players themselves wouldn't be losing anything but the faction will. It may bring more rp to the server between gov factions and how money is spent in the city etc.

[Clank]

22 hours ago, EnkoY said:

Most of the numbers you provided here are just wrong, .50's do not import at those prices and even if they were right, you're covering about 2% of criminal players who actually have access to equipment at those prices. The other 98% have to pay much, much more, making your argument just completely pointless in the context of this topic.
And even if they can get it for 50k, a LEO player gets it for free and only needs to spit out some lines of RP and potentially drive back and forth between the scene and mrpd to 'restock'.
You're comparing apples and oranges and it's hypocritical to try and argue a point like this.
It doesn't matter how much it costs for a criminal player, the fact of the matter remains that the LEO players pays literally zero for the same equipment in the same RP interaction.

My prices are absolutely without a doubt correct based on imports. An Assault Rifle (AK), .50 and 100% Kevlar costs less than 50k not including ammo costs. A .50 is less than 5k to import (Like I said I'm not gonna reveal the /EXACT/ price). If >50K for possibly the strongest loadout is too much then you can get a shotgun, .50 and 75% Kevlar for less than 35k not including ammo costs. There is definitely more than 2% of the playerbase that has access to these prices. Not only do multiple people in multiple criminal factions have access, but you also include the friends of those people that get imports from them. Of COURSE a person in a legal faction is going to be spending less on /ILLEGAL/ equipment. As a law enforcement officer those guns are not yours. You leave them at work you don't take them home. As a law enforcement officer if you want to have your gun, it costs more than it does criminal factions.

A criminal OWNS the guns, they KEEP the guns. A legal entity does not. 

 

22 hours ago, EnkoY said:

You're putting words in my mouth that I never said. Furthermore, you are once again basing your argument on data that represents a small fraction of the criminal playerbase and are creating a straw man argument by saying criminals can make tons of money by holing themselves up inside a lab and cooking endless batches of drugs. It's entirely besides the point of this argument. Not to mention that nobody wants to do that. It's the one thing we agree upon, probably, it's dogshit RP quality and a terrible way to spend your evening in terms of RP.

It /IS/ dogshit quality RP. There needs to be more criminal progression, criminal actions should have a REASON and a GOAL in mind. If I do a job, not only should my payout be dirty money but it should also enable me to do other jobs as opposed to everyone being able to do everything just by zerg rushing. I rob an ATM, I should have a small chance at finding a rare item that enables me to start a bank robbery, then from that bank robbery I should have a small chance of finding an item that lets me hit the main city vault on vinewood blvd, then from that vault I should have a small chance of finding an item that enables me to rob a security company that I can loot AKs, SMGs, etc. 

Labs should have a good payout sure, high risk high reward, constant shootings there etc. This should not invalidate other means of criminal progression though.

22 hours ago, EnkoY said:

You are trying to say that criminal groups should have 5 guys in full 100 AP armor and class 2 firearms to chop a car that'll net them 15-30k, just to cover all their bases and prepare for the off chance that an entire SWAT team thunders down on them with parachutes jumping out of a heli.
Surely you understand how bizarre that sounds?
You are essentially saying that anyone who doesn't shell out 50k+ per person participating in a single car chop that'll net a total of 15-30k between all participants is suffering from a "skill issue". Do you have any idea how ridiculously out of touch that sounds?

Chopping cars no. Chopping cars at high criminal locations that usually end up with 30+ bodies yes. People can get chop equipment and hold their own chop operations anywhere. If you're chopping at chilliad or hole-in-the-wall then you're gonna get ganked by a rival gang or police. So yes, you need to be prepared for the worst. 

You invest money to secure profit. 

Edited March 28, 2024 by Clank