Police overusing tasers

[Soupiestfork]

EDIT: What's the point. Way too many people taking things personally rather than reflecting on *why* it feels personal.

Edited April 3 by Soupiestfork

[dawpi]

On 4/1/2024 at 1:26 AM, tigerpet15 said:

This is a VOIP based server so it should be a problem.

So you're automatically discounting others that do not use VOIP? This being primarily VOIP based server doesn't mean that those that choose not to use VOIP should be put in a position to use it. Inconsiderate of you.

[dawpi]

On 4/2/2024 at 1:37 AM, tigerpet15 said:

What is far fetched from irl?

Everything. It's just nonsense.

[tigerpet15]

1 hour ago, dawpi said:

Everything. It's just nonsense.

Irl tasers have two shots. They gets used after the suspect is consistently resisting like 20 minutes for example. Have you ever seen bodycam footage from irl cops who use tasers And How long they should Wait… Also they have to call an ambulance after someone being tased. So yeah the way the system works is unrealistic. If cops d use other methods of stopping a suspects than instantly tasing them with no warning what so ever (irl cops have to scream taser taser taser befor shooting it) criminals would be way friendlier about it. Like 90% of Střeštík on my crim character goes the same i get tased cuffed put into cruiser the end no interaction what so ever. And I believe Thats poor quality RP

[tigerpet15]

1 hour ago, dawpi said:

So you're automatically discounting others that do not use VOIP? This being primarily VOIP based server doesn't mean that those that choose not to use VOIP should be put in a position to use it. Inconsiderate of you.

One of the LEO requirements is to have microphone And use voip. Its in the ooc requirements feel free to check it up on gov forums. So yeah if you are a cop you have to use voip And saying 3 times taser before tasing someone is nothing. I think why a lot of Leos are mad is the fact that they will loose I win button. 

[Jett_J]

2 hours ago, tigerpet15 said:

Irl tasers have two shots. They gets used after the suspect is consistently resisting like 20 minutes for example. Have you ever seen bodycam footage from irl cops who use tasers And How long they should Wait… Also they have to call an ambulance after someone being tased. So yeah the way the system works is unrealistic. If cops d use other methods of stopping a suspects than instantly tasing them with no warning what so ever (irl cops have to scream taser taser taser befor shooting it) criminals would be way friendlier about it. Like 90% of Střeštík on my crim character goes the same i get tased cuffed put into cruiser the end no interaction what so ever. And I believe Thats poor quality RP

Cops use tasers as soon as the suspect gets physical or runs on foot lol 

[dawpi]

On 4/4/2024 at 1:11 AM, tigerpet15 said:

Irl tasers have two shots. They gets used after the suspect is consistently resisting like 20 minutes for example. Have you ever seen bodycam footage from irl cops who use tasers And How long they should Wait… Also they have to call an ambulance after someone being tased. So yeah the way the system works is unrealistic. If cops d use other methods of stopping a suspects than instantly tasing them with no warning what so ever (irl cops have to scream taser taser taser befor shooting it) criminals would be way friendlier about it. Like 90% of Střeštík on my crim character goes the same i get tased cuffed put into cruiser the end no interaction what so ever. And I believe Thats poor quality RP

Yes, because I carry one. There are Tasers that have only two prongs, you can swap an additional cartridge. Axon have also released the one where you can flip the taser to the left and right to change cartridges without actually removing it physically. They DO NOT get used after the suspect is resisting for 20 minutes - mfs run away and get tased in a heartbeat at times. Ambulance is called in to remove the prongs, not for the fact that someone was tased. Irl cops do not have to scream taser taser before shooting, however are advised to in order to make colleagues aware and other members of the public; that is a tactical decision to yell or not, policy =/= law and a break of one can be easily justified. 

[dawpi]

On 4/4/2024 at 1:13 AM, tigerpet15 said:

One of the LEO requirements is to have microphone And use voip. Its in the ooc requirements feel free to check it up on gov forums. So yeah if you are a cop you have to use voip And saying 3 times taser before tasing someone is nothing. I think why a lot of Leos are mad is the fact that they will loose I win button. 

If you wanted me to check it, would've sent me the link, though I am well aware of their OOC requirements. There were days when I could use my VOIP, and there were other days when I couldn't and I was already in the faction, so what is your point? That will remain. If in certain circumstances I am in a position where I cannot use VOIP, then that's that for you x.

Otherwise, the law says nothing (even irl since that's what you are basing it on) about yelling taser three times before shooting. That is a matter of local policy. It is also for officers' discretion prior to using it, so if someone doesn't yell it - doesn't mean they are automatically fired or reprimanded. Every policy breach can be justified to make it a legitimate breach. So this whole 'suggestion' to put rules in can be simply suggested ICly to PD - 'make a taser policy', but again... you'd rather go OOC, that's expected. 

[Quietthecutie]

Lets move away from the argument of having to use voip. it has very little consequence on the discussion of tasers being overused. it would make very little difference if this suddenly became mandatory. 

@Demonmit1s argument is alot more relevant once you read into it:
 

On 4/3/2024 at 4:53 PM, Demonmit1 said:

LEO players use the taser as a crutch, specifically because of how unbalanced and overpowered it is. its an instant "i win" button, with no negatives, and they rely on that solely to win a situation. The character i play is a non violent criminal. He is RPly drunk all the time. I have a permanent drunk animation on the character. that walk/run animation forces my character to be EXTREMELY slow. there is no possible chance that i can successfully run from a situation. I have been tazed DOZENS of times for non compliance, often times nearly instantly after a demand is made.

its is engrained into how nearly all PD officers play, to just tase first, rather than interact RPly. i have never once seen an officer attempt to use the tackle mechanic against me in nearly 60+ arrests, and its a rare occurrence for a good cop RPer to use /do's. most just default to the taser to instantly win, even if there is a 100% chance they will "win" the situation, they just force the RP to end instantly with a taser.

At the end of the day, It doesnt affect me as I actively seek out interactions with PD to end up going to prison. If they use their tasers the same way on other real crims as they do to a character like Billy Pappalardo who's quite well liked OOC'ly from LEO's, I can see why crim players are fed up with the system. LEO players will argue against any change that nerfs their power, but something needs to change. 

The TLDR is that Tasers severely limit creative roleplay due to them being a constant reminder that the cop can instantly secure a W in any situation at any time that does not involve criminal guns. and the threshold for using them is extreemely low.

The stangard logic flow for taser use goes like this:

-Is the perp doing something that could be deemed illegal? YES

-Take out taser and demand the perp puts his hands up. does he comply? if yes, arrest and collect the W, if no, Tase and collect the W. either way, the taser ends the RP then and there and the criminal gets no satisfaction or motivation to do anything other than abandon creative RP and insted engage in W orientated RP of their own. 

Ultimately the problem is the LEOs inability to occly distinguish when a crim is oocly trying to do something for his own benefit or the benefit of others. creative RP is for the benefit of others, therefore he should not just instantly pull taser and give comply or else demands, but join in and have some fun with it. if this is something that LEOs cant do on the fly (or unwilling to do because they just wanna get into chases and shootouts) then i believe tasers need to change.

 

Edited April 5 by Quietthecutie

[Jett_J]

This thread is asking what came first the chicken or the egg.

Do cops over use tasers because criminal roleplayers refuse to RP properly? Or do criminals not roleplay tasers because cops want to win and use the taser excessively?

Probably a combination of both. Being a video game, everyone wants to "win" one way or another and you can't change that mentality.

Just make the taser have a longer charge time and make people who just got tased get put into a similar state as the death timer for like 30 seconds so they can't just keep running as if the taser is charging their batteries.

This would allow cops to tase once then utilize tackling to stop someone. Use /me to grab them and if they don't pay attention to the RP, just forcefully drag them or carry them. Also excessive tasing gets punished with a longer cool down since you have to use more thought when deciding if someone is worth tasing knowing you won't be able to do it for another X seconds.

If you think you're getting tased for simply existing and think an officer/deputy breaks force continuum, then just IA report it or OOC IA report if it's a common behavior in an individual.

 

From a LEO only player my perspective is that it gets old when individuals in the community will make arresting them the biggest pain possible forcing us to tase them 10 times. Although not everyone is guilty of this, it can be pretty demotivating to want to do anything creative and it's hard to identify who wants to roleplay and who wants to win (and if they dont win they want to ruin the fun for everyone else)

 

Edited April 6 by Jett_J

[Bala]

2 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

Lets move away from the argument of having to use voip. it has very little consequence on the discussion of tasers being overused. it would make very little difference if this suddenly became mandatory. 

@Demonmit1s argument is alot more relevant once you read into it:
 

The TLDR is that Tasers severely limit creative roleplay due to them being a constant reminder that the cop can instantly secure a W in any situation at any time that does not involve criminal guns. and the threshold for using them is extreemely low.

The stangard logic flow for taser use goes like this:

-Is the perp doing something that could be deemed illegal? YES

-Take out taser and demand the perp puts his hands up. does he comply? if yes, arrest and collect the W, if no, Tase and collect the W. either way, the taser ends the RP then and there and the criminal gets no satisfaction or motivation to do anything other than abandon creative RP and insted engage in W orientated RP of their own. 

Ultimately the problem is the LEOs inability to occly distinguish when a crim is oocly trying to do something for his own benefit or the benefit of others. creative RP is for the benefit of others, therefore he should not just instantly pull taser and give comply or else demands, but join in and have some fun with it. if this is something that LEOs cant do on the fly (or unwilling to do because they just wanna get into chases and shootouts) then i believe tasers need to change.

The taser doesn't end the RP there because for some reason, it was decided that people didn't have to roleplay the effects of being tased and could just carry on running. I don't know what server you are suggesting for or playing on, but there are very small margins for anything resembling creative roleplay in these situations. It is quite rare, for something other than them putting their hands up or continuing to run. You might get the odd slur and get told to kill yourself but that's about it.

The fact that you see it as something that is a W or an L sums it up really, cops don't really give a fuck about that. It's nice to catch someone but if you get away, it's a win for you, not a loss for us. We get paid either way and don't get paid more as a result. 

In fact, you could make the argument that someone getting away means that we can continue on to the next situation and that is probably more in line with what the server naturally is. It's not really set up for creative RP scenarios, it's about going from situation to situation in the most convenient and entertaining way possible. That's whether you are a cop or a crim. 

The actual problem, is that we have too many civvies that want to evade and act like this is GTA Online and cops firing off a taser that is literally from GTA Online. But, we're doing all this on an RP server.

Taser is the go-to because we choose not to go with the LAPD force continuum in-character aka the realistic approach.
Taser is the go-to because the tackling is not set-up for people running away from people and more or less everyone runs the same speed, they might as well be water pursuits for how long they'd last.

If you want a realistic taser, that doesn't auto-reload and you get one or two shots at maximum, that can be done. Can make the taser realistic in the meta files for the stun-gun, that's light work. But you won't go down for 5-10 seconds like this is GTA Online if you get hit.

[tigerpet15]

On 4/6/2024 at 12:34 AM, Quietthecutie said:

Lets move away from the argument of having to use voip. it has very little consequence on the discussion of tasers being overused. it would make very little difference if this suddenly became mandatory. 

@Demonmit1s argument is alot more relevant once you read into it:
 

The TLDR is that Tasers severely limit creative roleplay due to them being a constant reminder that the cop can instantly secure a W in any situation at any time that does not involve criminal guns. and the threshold for using them is extreemely low.

The stangard logic flow for taser use goes like this:

-Is the perp doing something that could be deemed illegal? YES

-Take out taser and demand the perp puts his hands up. does he comply? if yes, arrest and collect the W, if no, Tase and collect the W. either way, the taser ends the RP then and there and the criminal gets no satisfaction or motivation to do anything other than abandon creative RP and insted engage in W orientated RP of their own. 

Ultimately the problem is the LEOs inability to occly distinguish when a crim is oocly trying to do something for his own benefit or the benefit of others. creative RP is for the benefit of others, therefore he should not just instantly pull taser and give comply or else demands, but join in and have some fun with it. if this is something that LEOs cant do on the fly (or unwilling to do because they just wanna get into chases and shootouts) then i believe tasers need to change.

 

Exactly I love tho point of view

[Beet]

What a whiny, ridiculous thread.

On 4/5/2024 at 11:34 PM, Quietthecutie said:

Lets move away from the argument of having to use voip. it has very little consequence on the discussion of tasers being overused. it would make very little difference if this suddenly became mandatory. 

@Demonmit1s argument is alot more relevant once you read into it:
 

The TLDR is that Tasers severely limit creative roleplay due to them being a constant reminder that the cop can instantly secure a W in any situation at any time that does not involve criminal guns. and the threshold for using them is extreemely low.

The stangard logic flow for taser use goes like this:

-Is the perp doing something that could be deemed illegal? YES

-Take out taser and demand the perp puts his hands up. does he comply? if yes, arrest and collect the W, if no, Tase and collect the W. either way, the taser ends the RP then and there and the criminal gets no satisfaction or motivation to do anything other than abandon creative RP and insted engage in W orientated RP of their own. 

Ultimately the problem is the LEOs inability to occly distinguish when a crim is oocly trying to do something for his own benefit or the benefit of others. creative RP is for the benefit of others, therefore he should not just instantly pull taser and give comply or else demands, but join in and have some fun with it. if this is something that LEOs cant do on the fly (or unwilling to do because they just wanna get into chases and shootouts) then i believe tasers need to change.

 

You got caught lacking and held up by a cop with a taser. You took the L the minute you got caught. All these people saying "creatively roleplay" whilst they drive around living the 'thug life', using their sports car which they realistically couldn't afford whilst simultaneously complaining about the standards of roleplay....

You can't roleplay realism when it suits you to make up for the skill issue you present. 

Edited April 7 by Beet

[George Vern]

Quote

The current usage of tasers is unrealistic - I believe its really unrealistic to be able to shoot taser shots several times in quick succession. Most proffesional police tasers have only two shots after which the taser needs to be reloaded, also in real life cops need to annouce firing a taser.

First of all, we do announce it. Second of all, can't shoot in quick succession? Welcome to the Taser 10 by AXON:

The taser we currently use is modeled after the Taser 7. Having used a Taser 7 and having been tasered myself, I can tell you right now that a proficient user can reload it in approximately 2-4 seconds. It only has a 25 ft range. The Taser 10 is completely waterproof, can fire 10 prongs at a maximum range of 45ft, and you can taser multiple people at the same time with it.

Most large Police Departments in the States, the UK and some countries in continental Europe have already gotten and are currently using them.

 

If we're going to be throwing the "realistic" card around, let's actually be realistic about it, and not only state things that work in our advantage.

[tigerpet15]

5 hours ago, George Vern said:

First of all, we do announce it. Second of all, can't shoot in quick succession? Welcome to the Taser 10 by AXON:

The taser we currently use is modeled after the Taser 7. Having used a Taser 7 and having been tasered myself, I can tell you right now that a proficient user can reload it in approximately 2-4 seconds. It only has a 25 ft range. The Taser 10 is completely waterproof, can fire 10 prongs at a maximum range of 45ft, and you can taser multiple people at the same time with it.

Most large Police Departments in the States, the UK and some countries in continental Europe have already gotten and are currently using them.

 

If we're going to be throwing the "realistic" card around, let's actually be realistic about it, and not only state things that work in our advantage.

The realism is one part. The other one is the fact that pd have ultimate i win button which criminals have no way to counter And its severaly overused. There are other ways How to make suspect comply and doesn’t have to be tased right away. 

[George Vern]

Man I really want to agree with you, trust me, I do. I'll tell you this from my experience in PD since 2018, granted it's on and off, but it's still almost 6 years now.

The amount of people that will properly go through the RP of being tasered or being detained in another way is literally less than 1%.

The amount of times we have to deal with people that get tasered and immediately start running again is borderline annoying.

For context, I'm 6'1-ish, I used to weight about 230-240 when I was in shape. I was tasered and I couldn't move more than a couple of steps at a time for a minimum of 5-10 minutes after the fact. Meanwhile we have people on the server that will get tasered/tackled and then immediately start running off, even after multiple /me's and /do's of us trying to pin them to the ground after we taser them.

I fully agree that sometimes, taser usage is excessive. BUT, to counter that point, the amount of "non-rp" in the sense that people just don't RP the effects of certain actions is the only reason most of us have to resort to using the taser more than once or twice or even 3 times (my record is 7 times on a person, I think he got banned after the fact for refusing to rp lol)

Edited April 7 by George Vern
Edit: Spelling because am dum

[Ritchie Stones]

i mean, don't get caught..... whatever you do as a crim if you use your brains and plan out a crime well enough the chances of getting caught are so minimum, you know the moment you car get stalled, and the taser is on you the chances are already down to 1% of getting out there 

[Quietthecutie]

On 4/7/2024 at 1:54 AM, Beet said:

What a whiny, ridiculous thread.

You got caught lacking and held up by a cop with a taser. You took the L the minute you got caught. All these people saying "creatively roleplay" whilst they drive around living the 'thug life', using their sports car which they realistically couldn't afford whilst simultaneously complaining about the standards of roleplay....

You can't roleplay realism when it suits you to make up for the skill issue you present. 

Well that was incredibly brash. If you read the very first comment i put on here it clearly said i can see both sides of the argument. and i can. there are alot of crims who are W orientated, will not properly RP tasing, and will look for any way to edge out a victory and basically game the system.

what exactly crims driving about in sports cars which are affordable to them by the economy controlled not by them, but by the management of the server, has to do with any of this i dont know.

As for any kind of skill issue i might have and be looking to compensate for. again, i dont understand where the hostility is coming from. you seem to be tarring every crim character with the same brush, that which they are the worst kind of crims. the type that cannot take an L, scheme and metagame to eek out every little advantage they can, hold very poor standards of RP and will do everything they can to obstruct and delay LEOs even after they have been arrested. 

To be clear I hate that kind of player. My criminal character is based around anarchy and general mayhem. she has a strong background in this but also has friends outside of her criminal circle and for christ sakes always roleplays getting tased properly. I also really dislike any LEO mains who just want to get into chases and shootouts and anything which isnt either of these things they either avoid or speedrun through so they can get back out on patrol, usually using the taser to speed up the parts they find "boring."

So again, to go back to my original point, I can see both sides of the argument because i believe both sides make valid points and that both Crims and LEOs have players that contribute to the problem. cops pull tasers out as soon as they have met the requirements to do so (i,e "are you failing to comply with a lawful request" draws taser as they say this) because they are wary of the criminal trying anything. and crims feel the need to resist and not RP tasing realistically because their RP has just been cut short and they feel annoyed.

 

Edited April 9 by Quietthecutie

[Quietthecutie]

In fact, having mulled over this on my lunch break. I'm now convinced we are in a never ending war of escalating BS. a snake eating its own tail.

Cops tase quickly and with little escalation due to criminals not properly RPing the effects of a taser necessitating multiple shots and further RP/FRP of grabbing the crim while they are still on the ground encouraging the crim to NRP the Tase more necessitating the cop to shoot more etc etc and round and round we go. Fault is on both sides. but both sides can also agree the current system is unfulfilling and tedious at best.

We need to sit down and come up with a better system that both gives the crim more options when it comes to interactions with the cops whilst retaining the cops ability to swiftly end foot chases etc.

What that would look like, im not sure yet.  Best ive come up with so far probably involves some kind of combination of rule and mechanic change. something like the taser now aimcones and is slower to reload, however if it hits, it hits much harder, person is stunned longer and the target is then obligated not to resist further and accept a cuffing if the RP is carried out while they are still stunned on the ground.



 

[Bala]

Well, the escalation is the person committing a crime and then trying to escape from being caught.

Respect that some people calling it out that they are tasing, it's not something I'm going to do or something I believe should be enforced because we just open ourselves up to getting hung up on more technicalities and reports, if we do that, especially when VOIP is still ropey at times.

I said it in a previous reply but we're using a weapon designed and balanced for GTA Online, with the appropriate effects for GTA Online gameplay and having these back and forth conversations about what is fair and what is realistic.

I'll be honest with you, an endlessly reloading taser is on an RP server is bullshit because while you might fail to tase someone, you've got another go in 10 seconds and that's never ending.

But at the same time, say we do limit the shots to 1-2. If the person can get back up after 5-10 seconds and keep on sprinting like nothing has happened, what's the point? Might as well pull out a handgun and use lethal force at that point. If the tased person was down for a longer period and had some sort of limitation in the immediate aftermath of being tased, then I'm all for a more realistic taser. 

Then if you get tased, you are almost certainly going to jail but if you dodge or they miss tasing, you have a better chance of continuing to run and get away than you do. The system ends up being more realistic for what actually happens and everyone feels like the taser matters then.

 

[AtlasOLimbo]

There's also the discussion of what's at one's disposal and the consequences of that. There's very little options for crowd control that don't involve a gun or a fucking water truck.

Please give us @Bala beanbag...

And possibly a functional K9 script in 2030.